So THIS is the scope of the Trojan War. A modern person may read the Catalogue of Ships and the list of allies of the Trojans, but will lack the context to understand how many lands are involved and how great their armies and populations are. I know I always did. Though I'm surprised there's people on the Trojan side deep inland in the Balkans... Though that would explain why the returning troops weren't exactly liked in many cases, they went for an expedition and their cities were attacked for it. If we ever find the rest of the Trojan Cycle we could find a confirmation.
@@WanaxTV according to the eclipses of the sun as described in the Iliad, the destruction of Troy is determined around 1240 BC Herodotus identified it 800 years before that, i.e. in 1250 BC
WanaxTV, like your channel name, this is where you shine. The history, legends, and mythologies. I can only hope for more Mycanaean archaeology to come through for you to study and implement in future videos.
@@WanaxTV Just wondered if you could do a pod cast of all the cities that Achilles took in the Trojan war, and a list of his enemies he killed? great war story, just felt for the innocents of got slayed , Hector's son, was well sad that part
@@mrscanners.8888 I have been thinking of doing live podcasts for quite some time. It's definitely coming at some point, I'm slowly working on the logistics for it.
@@CaptainHarlock-kv4ztthe automatic translation says "Make reading part of your daily life bro." Which Greek word gets translators as "bro"? αδερφέ?
I mean the ship count was clearly off though it's worth mentioning that ships would be quite small at that point compared to the triremes of classical greece so they'd obviously need more
Absolutely brilliant work laying out all the allies of both sides so their positions can all be seen. This will be a YT reference work for some time I believe! Well done.
@@GothPaoki I mean, the Iliad is mostly just pure mythology. Sure, there is some kernel of truth behind it, like the city states that are featured in the epic; but the plot itself is mythological in origin and very Indo-European.
awesome job! I've been a big fan of your channel for quite a while now. I have one thing to correct though... you switched the locations between magnetes and melibians. thank you for the amazing job you are doing so far!
Thanks! I know that the Magnetes don't seem to be located throughout most of the territory of Magnesia, but the map was done according to Homer's locations. For some reason, he had many of the settlements in Magnesia participating under the Meliboean king Philoctetes.
This is great. The Iliad is either my favorite work of literature or it is the other one 😂. I have it on cd and listen to it in my car a lot, especially on long trips. Love everything to do with it. Excellent work, as always.
It’s interesting to see the significant number of ally’s the trojans had. A lot of movies and stories make it out that Troy had a small army against the united power of the Greek kingdoms, but no, they had the numbers to match the Greek army. I also like to think that Helizones are the Maykop culture since they come from the Black Sea
Congratulations on the excellent graphics, I also loved your video on Arzawa, I am curious were the Arzawans Hurrian or Luwian? Keep up the great work and do you have any plans to do similar shows on the other Anatolian states that were neighbours of Arzawa and who were also involved in the Trojan war?
I'm really amazed the Amazonians sided with the Trojans, and would have lost with them. I've also learnt the Thracians sided against the Greeks. Finally, I was interested to find out the Aethiopians sided with the Trojans against the Greeks. When I saw the scale of the Greek pool of recruitment, I felt the Trojans were in big trouble. But then, I saw the Trojan side also drew from a massive pool of allies all around. I loved the diversity of the representation on both sides. I'm sure there will be differences in motivation in participating in both sides. But also, I wonder how much of a cultural barrier there will be in such culturally heterogeneous camps? But one other thing I noticed was the absence of the Macedonians in either camp. I'm sure there's a significance to that also. Perhaps they were a new nation who still hadn't yet forged an identity. Perhaps they were staying tactically neutral to resolve internal strifes. Perhaps they want to remain trading with both sides. Anyway, that's all just my guesswork.
Keep in mind this was a struggle mainly between acheans and trojans. Macedonians are Doric in origin so they didn't have any business there. Dorians don't become a big player until decades later after some of them descend into southern Greece and settle there( like the Spartans)bringing about the end of Mycenaean civilization . A lot of misconceptions like that occur because Homer keeps referring to all the Greeks as acheans
the macedonians along with the epirotes and the thessalians were missing since they weren't established during the bronze agre ,all of them appeared after the greek dark ages
@@wankawanka3053 the Thessalians joined with many kings such as Philoktitis, Goneas, Protesilaos who was also the first dead of the war also the physician of the Achaeans, Machaon, was from Thessaly
Homer says that Achaeans and Troyans were both Greek (Hellenes), with common language, common names , common religion with the same gods and common heritage
@@LilBriskoTV_ Well as a historian I have to put up Homer's testimony taking Pelasgians as Greeks for granted. Homer in his Iliad written in 8th century BC: Rhapsody 2 , Lines 680-685 Line 681: Pelasgian Argos Line 683: Hellas Line 684: Hellenes [680] And with them there came thirty ships. Those again who held (681) Pelasgian Argos, Alos, Alope, and Trachis; and those of Phthia and *_Hellas_* (683) the land of fair women, who were called Myrmidons, *_Hellenes_* , (684) and Achaeans; [685] these had fifty ships, over which Achilles was in command. Argos was the most ancient Greek city called by Homer as : *_P e l a s g i a n A r g o s_* So Homer tells us as granted that Pelasgians are Greeks
Isn't it strange that a lot of landlocked regions were somehow able to launch 30-40 ships? Maybe they were allowed to cut down trees near the shores of other members of the Achæan coalition and use some of their infrastructure... If any of this even actually happened.
Troy, after decades of excavations, according to the archaeological school of Rome, was built around 3500 BC by the inhabitants of Polichni on Limnos, controlling the strait of the Hellespont from commercial ships The Trojans have the same culture, religion and language as the rest of the Greeks you didn't need an interpreter to agree between them the royal families of Troy and the rest married among themselves the mother of Teucrus, Hesione, was the daughter of Laodamans, king of Troy before Priam, she was the second wife of Telamon, king of Salamis in essence it was a Greek civil war
Very cool to see where all of the Achaean, the Hellenes, Mycenaeans kings came from… Also, I thought that Ethiopia was in Africa, so I always looked for Memnon there. Memnon and then Queen Penthisilia queen of the Amazons were always two of my favorite legendary figures from the Trojan war on the Trojans’ side. What else I find fascinating is all the Greek gods were there or they were involved. And they’re not just the ancient Greek gods they are the ancient gods from the tower of babel at the time of Nimrod so that would include Zeus Marduk Baal Bel Beelzebub Hubal Allah
correcting a few mistakes: aethiopia IS in Africa and has always been. the ancients gods from bible are NOT the same as the greeks, and allah is NOT zeus.
@@criticalanon Actually, modern scholars think the Ethiopia of Memnon is not Africa, but Asia. Different Ethiopias. As you can see on the maps, there are numerous cities with the same as in other places, like Thebes, Abydos, Kolkis. etc. Same with this Ethiopia.
Locations were not shown for Paphlagonia, Amazons, Halizones and Memnon. As you can see, their forces are coming from a direction which is off the map. I've done it that way because enlarging the map several times just to reach Ethiopia was not pragmatic. Also, camera moving so far away from the Aegean and then going back would not be very eye-pleasing.
@@WanaxTV I think Fortress of Lugh made a video on Memnon and why the Ethiopians of they Trojan cycle do not refer to the historical people and nation, but divine beings, in which Memnon as son of the Dawn could be a solar deity himself connected with the east.
Si no e vero, e bene disegnatto. I'm skeptical re. some details, especially the geography of Phrygians (which should be in the Balcans, probably Macedon, in those days) and the Pelasgoi (which are from Thessaly and secondarily Crete, not Asia Minor, where they were never recorded). Also the Thracians "bound by the Hellespont"... should be by the Hellespont, i.e. the Marmara Sea, right? Something that always had me rising an eyebrow or two was that Athens, a major naval power those days already and one of the main cities of BA Greece, clearly involved in the colonization of Crete, etc. "only" sent 50 ships. This plus the fact that they protected the Heraklides before they went to Doris, has me thinking that they were already semi-hostile to the Peloponesian hegemon, much as they'd be towards Sparta in the Iron Age. In any case, while Homeric literature preserves this war, a true "world war" of the time as the Trojan War specifically, to me it's clear that it was the war of destruction of the Hittite Empire, after all, the archaeological date for the destruction of Troy (VIIa) is c. 1180 BCE and that's barely two years before the destruction of Ugarit and associated conquest of Cyprus (and most likely destruction date of Hattussa), so they must have been the same war, even if maybe in two phases, as the Greeks seem to have rallied (per the catalog of Sea Peoples by the Egyptians) at least some of the defeated nations of the Trojan coalition, incl. the Pelasgoi (Peleset), Dardanians or Tauresoi (Teresh), Lycians (Lukka) and Trojans themsleves even (Teucrians = Tjekker), as well as the undocumented Phrygians, who were clearly the main beneficiaries of the Hittite collapse overland and mush have been the main force in inland Asia Minor against the faltering Hittites. "My father behold, the enemy's ships came; my cities were burned, and they did evil things in my country. Does not my father know that all my troops and chariots are in the Land of Hatti, and all my ships are in the Land of Lukka?...Thus, the country is abandoned to itself. May my father know it: the seven ships of the enemy that came here inflicted much damage upon us". (Amurappi, last ruler of Ugarit).
Hi Luis. Thanks for the comment. According to the ancient Greek sources, Phrygians (and Bryges, their original name) were located on both sides of the Aegean at the time of the Trojan war. They apparently originated from the areas around Pelagonia, Macedonia and Mygdonia in northern Greece, with some of the tribes migrating to Asia Minor prior to the Trojan war, particularly to the places such as Ascania, Acmonia and River Sangarius. Also, Pelasgoi were in fact recorded in Asia Minor, among other places. They were specifically recorded to had inhabited the coastal area (as highlighted on the map) with Larissa being their capital until the Dark Ages. Aeolian Greek colonization pushed them out, and according to the tradition, it were Kleues and Malaos whose army subjugated Larissa and allowed Kymi (Cyme) to become the leading Aeolian city. Athens was an important Bronze Age stronghold due to its location, but rather mid-level center when it comes to size, population and strength. It was nothing like Mycenae, Tiryns, Pylos, Knossos, Thebes or probably even Orchomenos for example.
@@WanaxTV - Re. Phrygians my doubt is whether the geography described in the Illiad is not a projection of Phrygian geography after the Dark Age. There's also the link of Mygdon, eponym of the Mygdones of Macedon (similarly sounding names and maybe even the same word with an accent), the anomalous presence of the Paeonians (Upper Macedonian people of unclear affiliation but whose presence in Troy makes little sense if there were no proto-Macedonians also involved), etc. But fair enough in any case, I guess it's possible that Phrygians had already established themselves in NW Asia Minor, even if the Hittite sources do not mention them at all. As for the Pelasgoi, the Larissa mentioned in the sources must be the Thessalian Larissa. Again there are no Asian sources for their presence in Asia Minor, these only mention (quite annoying and hostile) Greek presence in Miletus (Milawanda). I am aware of there being a debate about which Larissa is the one mentioned by Homer but the logic of Pelasgian legends forces them to be primarily in Thessaly at this chronology. There were many Larissas anyhow (the name seems broadly "Pelasgian" and could mean "fortress" or "acropolis"), including one in Thrace near the Ebros river and another one in the Troad itself. Tracking the ancient references to the Pelasgians anyhow, they are never located in the area of Izmir, although they are in the area of the Hellespont instead. According to this map: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pelasgian_presence_in_ancient_texts_(English).svg , Homer would only locate them in Thessaly and Crete, which IMO is the most accurate for "core Pelasgians" (i.e. the Greek or Western part of Pelasgo-Tyrsenians, associated to Dimini and Rakhmani cultures of Thessaly specifically), while only Herodotus places them in the Dardanelles area (which IMO rather corresponds to the Tyrsenians, the Asian or Trojan segment of the same broad ethnolinguistic family, and the likely source of the Etruscans). It is only Strabo who claimed that Larissa Phrikonis (your choice of Larissa, near modern Izmir) was the one of the Illiad and that's a rather late (1st century BCE) interpretation. Re. Athens, it was not a mere important stronghold but was clearly very active in the maritime trade, especially with Crete (adding some credibility to the kernel of truth in the legend of Theseus). This is archaeologically documented (although I lost the reference I did read a very interesting paper on BA Athens, its connections to Crete and its surprising survival in the Dark Age almost completely unscathed). They clearly look like the most important BA Greek city outside the Peloponese (maybe with the exception of Thebes?) and therefore it makes some sense they had reluctance to cooperate with the "Great King" of Mycenae, even if also not picking a direct fight with him.
@@LuisAldamiz Hi Luis. You presented a legit question regarding the geography of the Iliad. In general, I wouldn't call Homer's geography a projection of the Dark Age, because he had listed multiple Bronze Age locations that did not survive into the Dark Ages. Also, if we consider that the Sangarius River region (core area of the Phrygians) was outside the control of Hittite empire and rather scarcely documented in their sources, it is very possible that Phrygians had already moved there at some point towards the end of the Bronze Age. I would be very reluctant identifying the mentioned location with Thessalian Larissa, chiefly because the region where Thessalian Larissa is located was among the Achaean contingents, led by Polypoetes and Leonteus. Strabo also describes the Pelasgians being in possession of Larisa located c. 70 stadia from Cyme at the time of the Aeolian migration to Asia Minor. He also mentions several other places to the south as being inhabited by the Pelasgoi before Aeolians and Ionians moved in. Even after Aeolian settlement, inhabitants of Larisa Phriconis reportedly still paid respect to a Pelasgian leader of the past called Piasus, I don't think that Bronze Age Athens was anywhere near the level of Classical Athens when it came to power and influence. However, outside Peloponnese, I do agree that probably only Thebes was a larger center than Athens. Possibly Orchomenos. However, there is no evidence of Athens being a powerful and fully independent state during the Mycenaean times.
@@WanaxTV - Re. Strabo: he's from the time of Caesar and Augustus, very much more detached from Dark Age's oral history than Homer and Herodotus are. Things had changed a lot in the Aegean by his time (Macedonian Empire, Hellenism and of course the more recent Roman conquest). While Strabo is definitely much more scientific than someone like Ovid, he's also much more easy to be misled in regards to proto-history than someone like Herodotus. I generally trust Herodotus a lot, he's quite good considering the limitations of his pioneering science (History) at the time. If Herodotus and Strabo are in contradiction, then almost certainly Strabo is wrong.
@@WanaxTV - Not sure about BA Orchomenos. Haven't researched the matter before now and what I find is that they only contributed 30 ships (so less important than Athens or Thebes/Boeotia in principle, as these contributed 50 ships each) and that they built a tholos or "beehive tomb" (an Iberian influence from the trade contacts with El Argar civilization, maybe the legendary Erytheia, in the 1550-1300 period). Thebes and Athens both show up in the early Greek settlement with respective mounds[1] and both are generally listed as major cities of BA Greece, even if most other cities are in the Peloponese instead (and especially in the Argolis area). Their geographic particularities may even be directly related to the evolution of the Ionian and Aeolian Greek dialects of later times (Peloponese would then speak proto-Arcado-Cypriot, while proto-Dorian or proto-NW Greek would rather belong to the frontier area with Thessaly instead). Thebes definitely has a major mythological corpus (unlike Orchomenos), so they were surely influential. However it is not Herakles' birthplace (Thebes) which gave first protection to the fleeing Heraklids, but Athens, and that to me speaks volumes about Athens not being really a vassal of Mycenaea and even somewhat hostile. Probably the Greek political landscape in the LBA was that of a semi-unified Peloponese under Mycenae but separate smaller powers in Athens and Thebes/Boeotia, as well as maybe other places (notably Crete, which was probably a powerhouse on its own right). They all had to accept Mycenae as diffuse hegemon (clearly so in the Trojan War) but not all the time. In any case I don't mean that BA Athens was as strong as that of Perikles, of course not. But it was not a mere backwater either. The reference I read was a 2016 paper by Diane Harris but it has vanished from the Internet (what is a true pity because it did give lots of info on BA and Dark Age Athens in terms archaeological). Note [1]: see my Spanish-language article here: bagaudaberri.wordpress.com/2020/12/17/origen-de-los-griegos-indoeuropeos/ (mostly for the annotated map, which underlines the earliest mounds and thus the likely first spread of the Indoeuropean Greeks in the Early Helladic) and the referenced paper: www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3462 If you pay attention to the map of the tumuli by eras, you can even infer the actual BA Greek expansion. So for instance the (LBA) alleged Greeks near Mt. Pindus are very likely real (only since LH), as are those of Magnesia (since MH) but inside core Thessaly they don't seem to have actually existed. The two northern tumuli of LHIIIC in Macedon probably attest not to Greeks proper but to the arrival of their Vucedol culture relatives: the Macedonio-Phrygians.
World first cultures Vucedol, Lepenski Vir (Iron Gates) starts 11500 BC, Starcevo culture starts 6200 BC, Vinča culture starts 5700 BC, today Serbia. Samarra culture 5500-4800 BCE, Cucuteni culture starts 4800 BC, Varna culture starts 4500 BC, Yamnaya culture 3300 BC. World first industrial revolution ca. 6000 BC. Bronze metallurgy. (BBC History news March 2010) Gordon Childe-The Danube in Prehistory, Jacque Pirenne-Agriculture at Danube Farming start about 6000 BC. Vinca First Calendar start to count years at 5508 BC. (Now in 2024 we have year 7532) Farming wouldn’t be possible without knowledge of calendar. Both development started and developed together. Harald Haarmann about first cyrillic writings in Vinca culture in 5500 BC so 2000 years before any writings anywhere else on the world. Vinca Iron production 1400 BC. In today English language there is more than 2000 same or similar Serbian words. Names of the Balkan tribes: Pelasgians, Mycenaeans, Etruscan-called themselves Rasi, in Serbia exist even today province Ras. Wendi, (Wendisch museum in Cottbus, Germany, Lusatian Sorbs, Lužički Srbi.) Illiyrians, Macedonians (Homer is saying Paeonian people walked on foot 11 Days to help Trojans war), Dardanians (Original Troy is here, not in Turkey, Homer wrote sea is freezing in the winter-Panonian sea), Moesians, Dacians, Thracians, Rasci, Celts, Scythians, Sarmatians, Arians, Sea People, Peleset, Philistines, Hittites, Bhrygians. Tribes spread in all directions all over Europe and Asia ……. Wild Greeks arrived ~ 1000 BC from Egipt, Hungarian from Asia and Bulgars from Asia they found culture on the Balkans, writings and language and they mixed with domestic people. 18 Roman emperors were born in Serbia because of Etruscan connection. After Trojan war many groups of people left Troy in all directions to middle Europe, northern Europe to Britain and Scandinavia, south to Anatolia.One group under Aeneas sat sail with 22 ships and about 3400 followers and reach Italy-Etruscans. Proto Serbian language spoken all over the Balkans in Illyria, Thracia, Dardania, Moesia, Pelasgia, Macedonia, Etruria, Bhrygia, Sarmatia and so on….Germans published dictionary in year 1791 German- Illyrian so you can read the words and speak, it is today Serbian.It is older than Sanskrit, Greek, Latin or all western European languages. Plato confirms in his work The Dialogues of Plato-Cratylus the Greeks used Pelasgian (Proto Serbian) to develop their own language.
