Trying to find out why R380 gearboxes had bad 2nd gear changes 

In the 2wd world, 2nd gear was the gear that always gave out first, a scraping change, but this was LT77s. The R380 came after SD1 and TR7 and 8 production had ended. I remember the hype about how much better the 77s was, and how R380s were great, personally, having had all of them, over many years, I would say there not any difference, it's a lovely box, until it's worn out, just like any other.

Wow Mike, you’ve opened up a “Pandora’s gearbox” of comments. 😂 Seems like anything Ashcroft create improves Land Rover gearboxes and drivelines appreciably! Thanks for the video. Very educational.

On older trucks, it was necessary to blip the throttle on the upshifts as well, I do this to help my lt77 1st to second shift. It's not 100% successful, but does help.

Hi MIke, I have an avid landy and commercial gearbox pal over here in good old blighty, worn slipper pads caused by oil leaking and no maint

I've usually had good success in curing notchy 2nd shift by adjusting gear lever bias springs. Don't know why that works, but seems to work for me 90% of the time. Lately I've also been using bimrose light gear oil, makes an r380 feel like a corolla gearbox!

I was taught when doing vw gear boxes we would heat up the cinkros let them cool and lap them in l do that to Landrover to works good

Thank you for this information.

I see Britpart are expanding, now have a unit in Newtown, Powys.... About 20 miles from their Craven Arms depot..

I got my 1995 300 Tdi 90 11 years ago. I soon discovered that if you tried to change up into second too fast, it crunched. I very quickly learned to be a bit slower and more ‘deliberate’ (if that makes sense) when changing up into second and it does not crunch. If I forget myself, I am always met with a crunch 😂

Ay UP ! hi Mike been watchin an i am still wonderin bout this 2nd gear trouble ?? in all the old vans tractors n wagons . when a box is behavin like this gear box box is gettin warr ! YOUR A STAR LAD !!!!!!!!!!

Can't add much only my Defender 200Tdi will not engage second for maybe a mile. Almost as if the oil needs to heat up. The larger oil channels is interesting. As you have said, only second gear.

You forgot the Most Common Reason.. " The Problem Exists between the Seat , Clutch and Gear Shifter !! " 😆

i think the brass cone in the synchro ring wears on the taper over time on the 1-2 shift and always wears faster with older unchanged oil. This action wont allow the gear teeth to slow fast enough to catch the gearchange. I think you mentioned this in passing when you were discussing the gap.

dont forget the layshaft spins at its own rate governed by the ratio on the input shaft to laygear, there is a speed difference between first gear and second gear there will be more inertia on first gear due to its weight being greater then 2nd gear, however once its uncoupled its free - but if the syncro ring is slow to grip engaging 2nd the dogs will clash - it looks to me that there are marks on the cone face (8:22 in vid) on the old gear this might be enough to upset the cone breaking action. I have also seen "new" baulk rings that that instead of having nice sharp v groves on the friction side the tips of the v's were flat like they had done a lot of work but this does not appear to be so with yours - also oil viscosity can cause trouble

Some MT82 have also such crunching from 1st to 2nd, whereas others do not.

Hi Mike, I have a 3500SE SD1 with around 42,000miles on it (alongside many LT77 and R380 LR 'boxes) and I have found the oil-grade is the biggest factor in shift-quality. The default position is to use an ATF, and I tend to use Fuchs Dexron_II across all of my Rover/LR 5-speeds, simply because it fits most of them the best i.e. the shift-quality across all the gears is adequate. Something I found back in the 1990's when fitting LT77's into Rover P6B's (usually replacing totally shot BW35 auto-boxes) was that the shift-lever position relative to the driving seat was a big factor in smooth changes through to 2nd; it's an awkward place on the "back, left" of the pattern, and getting a good ergonomic on the shift-lever was of paramount importance to the feel of the (now modified) car. It has struck me that this could be a part of the problem also with the Defender R380, as the shift-lever is not great ergonomically; I have always set my lever round quite acutely on its splines towards the driver/steering-wheel on my 110CSW 300Tdi, and it still feels great (well, it used to until I pulled it all apart to restore at the moment.....) on a hard-used-for-towing150k R380 'box. This means the lever falls much more to hand, and in RHD format, 2nd gear is both closer to the driver, but also further forward towards the dash than it would have been from the factory. The trick seems to be, find a good R380, look after it and service it with fresh oil every 20,000 miles, don't break it so that you have to replace parts for pattern-items....!

Thanks!

Mine had that and was found to have a cracked synchro ring. Submitted before watching this video.

I guess like other people commented maybe gearbox was in fact designed for the sleepy farmers? Therefore shift gear very slowly without any urgency of people behind them? Maybe that if why I have not noticed? To be honestly, I have never driven so called a perfect brand new spec Defender so I do`nt know what to expect to be normal. I will check next time I drive him. Thanks for the educational video!

Hey mike i remember watching a vid on scynchros from a gent on you tube. He rebuilds munzies boxes or something. He had allways checked finish on the gear where synchro runs. Issues were when the gears were cut they were left cut rough as they dragged the cutting tool backwards and the synchros had trouble locking on. the coned area

It’s a puzzle, mine can be smooth or graunchy, depending on if it’s been sitting a while & cold but can happen when hot too. Not the only gearbox to do it though, 2nd gear in my Honda Civic is always notchy first change up, thereafter it’s ok.

My RRC R380 has the same issue, though a brief pause in neutral during the change up seems to stop it. It’s markedly worse when warmed up. The car is going through full restoration at the moment. The gear box is out of the vehicle and is going to be rebuilt partly for this and partly because exit has done 220,000 miles anyway. I have them adding an oil cooler with all the Gen parts (including a thermostatic adaptor that I think I may have sourced from you). They will use the Ashcroft R380 kit that I bought a decade ago - I hope it has these decent rings; I mentioned my concerns to their mechanics and asked them to have a close look at the rings because I have heard of many aftermarket rings having D shaped rather than > shaped teeth. I’m really glad you did this video now - I’ll be forwarding it to them and asking them to take a look at the synchro for burrs too. On a different vein entirely, I rewatched some of your videos about replacing key barrels on Defenders. I have two earlier Defender push button front doors (1990ish) and a similar age Defender rear door on my SIII, so it has three keys (ign, front doors, rear door). Damned nuisance! SP do a kit with an ign barrel and four identical locks (including fuel cap) to mod Defenders to use just one key, but given how the rear door always used such a small key compared to the front doors and ign, I’m not sure the kit will fit, despite its explicit marketing for just this purpose. Any idea if the lock barrels are the same on early front and rear Defender doors, Mike (16mm pre-2002 type)?

'An amplifier for clonks' made me laugh. The Ashcrofts parts look very good quality but other than newer, it's definitely try spotting the difference.

My Disco 2 only has the notch in winter time when cold in the summer it’s perfect

Bardzo dobry film pozdrawiam dobranoc.

U started going on about mass of the gears etc... I not sure if this is similar. But I find if I'm loading it hard from first to second.. Gears mot to great but say I get into first get up to hear change... Somewhat hover and float at same speed. Letting the load reduce so to speak... Its smooth a silk

Hi Mike, I have rebuilt a few transmissions, also using Ashcroft parts, and have found that the transmissions work perfectly but do not shift as nicely as my original 1997 R380 which I have never opened for 260,000 miles. It can be switched absolutely buttery smooth. No comparison to others.

I think the FINAL drive ratios don't help Mike, in a normal car (or a lightly loaded 90) you would never need to get the revs up high to make a shift from 1st to 2nd, but the heavy 110 (fairly low geared) needs a fair bit more RPM input. This means the syncro is doing way more work to slow gears down for the correct mesh alignment. Providing its not causing damage, I think its just 'one of those things' Or start off in 2nd😁

Will be watching these video's with interest, as I've noticed a slight issue with 2nd gear in my D2. As a wild stab, I'd say it's something to do with oil flow. My D2 is perfect for 10 months of the year but when it first starts up in sub-zero weather I have to be careful changing from 1st to 2nd. I'd guess the cold oil doesn't quite get to somewhere that it needs to get to.

All I can tell you is that my 1980 US SD1 had an LT77

Was the 2 wheel drive a lt77s and a rubber drive donut ? Some times sdi did not go in 1st it was the weight anb momentum of the clutch plate.

I have no experience with these gearboxes, however I changed a gearbox in one of my cars from the stock 4 speed to a 5 speed. The 1st-2nd shift was aways a bit like you describe for the first few minutes of driving and then it would be fine all day. The issue was apparently down to the oil viscosity, I had always used EP90 or similar but the 5 speed wanted ATF. I wonder if it is worth trying in your case? Doing a quick search the Landrover gearboxes use a variety of lubricants. 20-50, EP90, ATF... some of the choices seem a bit random...I think many modern gearboxes use ATF to reduce viscous losses... I think it might be worth trying.

The synchro clutch/break has to spin the layshaft up to speed via the gearing ratio. I think the speed of changing gear is too fast for the spinning up stage for first to second etc. So probably a slower shift is required.( thicker oil?) the synchro rings are the same size so first/second is at a disadvantage compared to 2/3 etc as you are spinning up using a larger gear ratio big gear to small for first, medium to medium for 2nd etc... or perhaps im waffling... 😮

Don't forget it can be other issues too..Shift Forks Bent / Worn or other parts that are in the Shifting Mechanism ... can be many reasons including poor design... but usually that shift 1st to 2nd is most abused for obvious reasons....Slower speed at shift and torque and drag ....lots of simple reasons..including minor wear from bad shifting....

My R380 fitted to 2006 made Rest of World tdi 300 has trouble going from first to second. The problem has been there from the very first km on what was a brand new Land Rover. In 2023 with 25000 km, the gear selection first to second is identical to how it was on day one. However it is only an issue on the first few selections. After about 5 minutes of driving the problem is no more. To me that suggests the problem relates to oil viscosity. I’ve always thought that there is inadequate oil access to some part near synchros. I’m curious to see if the larger channels on the Ashcroft part solves the issue.

I had the same problem but my wife didn't. She never had problems shifting the Landy to 2nd when cold. I changed the oil I use and I felt a difference. These days I don't feel it anymore, so either the oil helped or how I shift gears changed. Thanks again for the great video Mike.

Same pb with mine, smooth gear changing is ok, but "too" quick change from 1st to 2cd = scewch

I'm wondering if, like you say, the transmission wind up can be part of the cause. 1st gear exerts the most force into the system. Maybe see if a pause between 1st and second helps? Or good old series double declutch? That way you'll know if the syncro is part of the problem.. Great to watch and join in the puzzle!!

So it's not just me then feeling a notch when changing from 1st to 2nd. Every other change in the box is smooth.

Hi Mike, I have a Richards V8 110 chassis. I am putting in a Thor V8 from a Range Rover with an R380 gearbox (Ashcroft rebuilt), Discovery V8 bel housing and 1.2 ratio transfer case. The problem I am having is which gearbox mounting brackets do I need? As the gearbox and transfer are sitting about an inch too far forward for the old R380 brackets. Lincoln

One thing that occurred to me is that most of the hard driving/shifting is done into and out of 2nd gear. This may lead to premature wear of the synchros and it's respective surfaces. The gear itself typically isn't wore out when '2nd gear' gets clunky. Does that make sense?

Coming from the 'graunch 'til it gives' school, of '77/230's - the concept of rebuilding a gearbox because there's just a slight 'notch' into 2nd, makes me feel ashamed. I'll add 'rebuild gearbox' to the whiteboard. I might as well attempt to experience smooth gearchanges for once in my life 😁👍

PSA: If any of you have a 2000 or later 4.0 V8 equipped Land Rover and are looking to seal the bottom end of the engine, the Fel-Pro gasket kit CS 26436 advertised to fit this engine _IS NOT THE CORRECT KIT._ Only the included rear main seal, water pump seal, and one o-ring from this kit fit the 2000 and newer 4.0 engines with the cast aluminum oil pan. Fel=Pro does not sell a kit for this engine. You will have to source the gaskets individually. Ask me how I know. 8:13 They're not identical. Look at the leading edge of actual gear teeth. The one in your left hand (right side of the screen) has beveled edges while the other does not. Not the synchro teeth, the gear teeth themselves. Not that it matters as far as shifting goes. Anyway, early jeeps with the Spicer T-90 also has 2nd gear issues. The most common issue is "popping out" of second gear on deceleration or downhill no throttle situations. _Usually_ the issue is worn synchros and/or second gear has worn synchro teeth or bushing. A worn bushing allows the gear to 'cock over' on the shaft and helps it push the synchro sleeve off the gear. In rebuilding the T90, one issue is that the factory service manuals don't make any mention of output shaft end-play. If there's too much, the trans will pop out of second on deceleration. If there's not enough end play, it will be difficult to shift into second and third. Another issue that causes problems is crap quality replacement parts. The first replacement sunchro assembly I installed in the T90 in my 48 Willys CJ2A was horrid. After running it for about a month I tore it down again and found that the synchro rings themselves were horribly out of round - by almost a full 0.010 inches. Further, the first aftermarket synchro assembly I bought was almost impossible to shift by hand. The replacement was only mildly better, and I _still_ have issues shifting the trans 1-2 and 3-2. I bring all this up because it _might_ be related to the issues you're seeing. I honestly don't know. I expect that if there's any lateral play on the assembled mainshaft/output shaft in the assembled transmission, then you're going to have problems. I hope you get this sorted out and can explain to the community what causes the problem and how to fix it. My wife has a Disco II and has been contemplating swapping in a manual transmission. Guess who gets to sort all this out... :D Anyway, thanks for another great video! Interesting to learn that Britpart isn't the be-all end-all of parts. We're having a hard time sourcing some parts for the Wife's 2000 Disco II and we've been buying them from Atlantic British. If you have a better source for parts, I'm all ears.

Wouldn't a 5 speed Santana be a good alternative to an r380 ?

Along with the second gear. I find reverse really hard to get sometimes too?

My brothers defender has this 1st to 2nd notch,mine doesnt,very weird! He uses ATF i use Redline MTL fluid

I have the same problem with my puma MT82 gearbox only it's from second to third. Do you think it's a same issue Mike?..

I believe in 2wd LT77 is also prone to notchy shifts 1st to second. I rebuilt the LT77 in my TR8 (while its a 2wd box i found your videos an extremely helpful resource) Even after a rebuild i find 2nd gear is notchy and you have to take changes slowly , especially when cold. Once it warms up it's performs much better. In the 2wd world there is much debate over what is the best oil to use as even the factory changed from specifying gear oil to using Automatic transmission fluid reportedly because the shifts were very heavy. So far I think I've tried all the ones people generally recommend and found penzoil synchromesh has worked the best although MTL Redline is similar , but its still not brilliant 1st to 2nd (but oddly fine once the box is warm) This relief of symptoms when the box warms up makes me wonder if the issue is related to oil viscosity or if it is due to clearances change as parts expand. But short answer, 2nd gear is a common issue on LT77 2WD boxes

Long shot, could uneven wear on the selector fork be tipping the synchro hub and causing it to baulk slightly ? Similar to how series reverse gear selector forks wear...

Big couts out on syncro is for fast oil evacuation to Slow gear down for easier engagement. Why only in second gear? Because of big difference in ratio between first and second gear..

Hi Mike, perhaps try putting some bluing compound on the cone and gently turning the bulk ring on it and see if the grooves are all making even contact across the face of the gear cone, also consider the mass of the clutch plate, input shaft, layshaft and the second gear itself plus the 1st and 3rd gears (not much you can do about that I know) but the synchro ring has to work hard to adjust the previous to the right speed to get a smooth gear change, there are also implications for the clutch plate dragging on the flywheel when the clutch pedal is depressed, my personal preference is to completely clean and dry input shaft splines and apply some graphite powder to the splines before I refit a gear box, grease accumulates friction dust and gets hard and claggy, binding on splines etc...

Ace maey.

Just 2 weeks ago installed my completely rebuilt R380 and transfer box with 2k of new parts from Ashcroft. It feels lovely compared to how it was, that's for sure. I drove my friends Nissan x-trail which had a gearbox that just 'snicked' into place no matter the revs. I am that sad old man with gearbox envy!!

Double clutch mike. Be a man