Venerating Sacred Images | Jonathan Pageau

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Jonathan Pageau
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Опубликовано:

22 апр 2024

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Комментарии : 83

@daveloriw Месяц назад

It was a wonderful experience to attend this conference, especially as an evangelical.

@veronicab15 Месяц назад

Jonathan's energy is pure joy. Always makes me feel better to listen to this man.

@ThatJetstream Месяц назад

This should be at least an hour long

@RootsofOrthodoxy Месяц назад

Love this!

@stuckmannen3876 Месяц назад

Any more clips with pageau on the way? 😊

@williampeters9838 Месяц назад

I am fully opposed to iconoclasm because of the points mentioned by Jonathan and chapters like Romans 14. However I genuinely don’t understand how it is not in conflict with Romans 14 to say that it is NECESSARY to venerate icons or that those who fully respect those who venerate icons but personally would abstain are in error.

@mement0_m0ri Месяц назад

I want to know who came up with the little flute tune for Patristic Nectar.

@adelinacod5683 Месяц назад

Such a wonderful Interview! Greetings from a romanian orthodox Family!💖

@CountyPharisee Месяц назад

Awaiting the Paul Vander Klay response to this conversation a few days from now.

@thingsoldandthingsnew1993 Месяц назад

Gotta get that Prot inoculation to the new challenge (not saying you personally want this but that it seems increasingly to be the bent of his channel, at least in the last few weeks).

@internetgoon234 Месяц назад

amazing. wonderful. thanks father josiah

@nateg6525 Месяц назад

Greetings from the Eastern Catholic Church 📿

@ElonMuskrat-my8jy Месяц назад

Uniatism is heresy and delusion.

@KarlAlbertNg Месяц назад

My first ever religious conference, and I ate every word of it. (except the moments I dozed off after 1-hour trip to Riverside and the long conference day!)

@protestanttoorthodox3625 Месяц назад

Amin

@georgepapatheofilou6118 Месяц назад

I was once anti icons of old but then I became aware of the history lesson involved. Take St George as example , disobey draconian laws and paid the price via sacrifice for his belief of not persecution of innocence. That's freed from desire and not a lier but a believer in truth and justice. Glory is always to most high and most grateful for the gift of Yeshua. Christos Anesti, Hallelujah. Kyrie Eleison Me. ❤❤❤

@cabellero1120 Месяц назад

The Army barracks are full of photos of service men and women who died in the line of duty and combat.. Are They being worshipped?...No. People honor their memory, their courage and sacrifice... In the Church, We honor the courage and memory of the Saints..." Heroes For Christ" and His Church!

@johnsambo9379 Месяц назад

Very different. People pray to icons and light candles as if these images can help save them. Only Jesus saves.

@HerogateEXE86 Месяц назад

Only different are The Saints are alive in Christ there are heroes for God that we ask them to Pray for us for The power of God work through them God love to hear the prayers of righteous men

@cabellero1120 Месяц назад

Salvation is a beginning, not an end result unto itself.. Orthodox Christians have a different understanding of Salvation than Protestants.

@nathandaniels4823 Месяц назад

@@johnsambo9379 That’s not what the Church teaches and that’s not what we believe. Are you merely misinformed, or are you being intentionally dishonest? Standing before an icon of a Holy person, we ask the person to pray to God for us, because according to scripture, we know God is not the God of the dead, but the living. We know only Christ saves.

@wubuck79 Месяц назад

@@nathandaniels4823genuine question: doesn’t the Bible forbid trying to communicate with those who are deceased? And doesn’t it mention something about them not being aware of our doings here? And wouldn’t Christ be sufficient as intercessor? These are questions, not a criticism. I’m looking into Protestant/Restoration vs Orthodox theology and both make convincing claims on different points.

@MTL-ew7ng Месяц назад

Yes, landed the first view

@protestanttoorthodox3625 Месяц назад

❤☦️🇺🇸

@vladimirmarkovic8578 Месяц назад

See the film... CONQUEROR of the death!!!

@synthesaurus Месяц назад

There was an oil stain on a window pane that looked like a praying woman. A pilgrimage ensued. Then local priests took that pane to a church for more “official” veneration .

@mourningdovefilms Месяц назад

What a gift!

@micahwatz1148 Месяц назад

Love you guys, i listen regularly. And i agree yes God was incarnated. But as a man, not as a statue or a painting.

@user-md4ji2we2o 26 дней назад

Why orthodox churches not popular in America?

@luka.tatic.98 Месяц назад

💝☦️🇷🇸🇷🇺💯✅

@carolinascotsman Месяц назад

If you kiss a picture of your wife, it doesn’t mean you’re having an affair. It means that you love her and miss her.

@synthesaurus Месяц назад

What if you start believing that particular picture “answers” your prayers and you start bringing jewelry to it as gifts?

@carolinascotsman Месяц назад

@@synthesaurus I would say if the individual misunderstands the purpose of the icon holding magical powers as an inanimate object then they might need some church authority on the subject. I would suspect most adherents understand the icon is focusing their prayers and faith to the ones they represent. You have a valid point certainly or at least a word of caution. I say this not being an authority.

@carolinascotsman Месяц назад

@@synthesaurus I see the amazing culture and art surrounding Orthodoxy very much venerating Christ and the Saints. No idolatry here but my Presbyterian ancestors wouldn’t have shared my opinion. Their’s was an aggressive reaction to their grievances with the Catholic Church.

@synthesaurus Месяц назад

@@carolinascotsman to north Americans it understandably all seems so deep and exotic. But if you had spent just some time living in some of the traditionally ortho countries you would quickly notice how spiritually bankrupt they are. I’d dare to claim even more so than the US. I sincerely feel sorry for all the Americans who moved to Russia from the “corrupt west”.

@synthesaurus Месяц назад

@@carolinascotsman The reason why I prefer n.american orthodox churches is the fact that most converts have that “american protestant” mind set. I know it sounds paradoxical. Seeing american orthodox churches filled with the new believers whose faces reflect the reality of the Living Christ gives me hope. It is virtually impossible to find in the “old countries” these new believers so idealize.

@jessenagy9302 Месяц назад

We are forbidden to use the Lord’s name in vain because words have meanings and represent/symbolize that which it is used. Such is true of any other symbols such as images; and the same truth applies.

@fun_at_work Месяц назад

Idk. The only place we "take a name" is in adoption or marriage. "taking the Lord's Name in vain" seems like treating covenant with him as secondary, incidental, or without deep reverence and love.

@AlexStock187 Месяц назад

Wait. Is Father Josiah okay with "tens of thousands of years old"? Maybe mistakenly, I was under the impression he was a Young-Earther.

@tjkhan4541 Месяц назад

With real respect, Pageau lifts some OT passages and interprets them to support his point, but neglects many explicit commands that undermine it. No Jewish follower of Yahweh would recognize icon veneration (as practiced today) as valid or pleasing to Yahweh. This discussion overlooks the textual uses and details for Hebrew and Greek words like worship, honor, etc. (I know it’s just a short clip though.) I don’t think, about 5:40, that Pageau’s perspective on how Christ flips or readjusts the second commandment is valid. Yes, the incarnation changes many things, and the new covenant is fundamentally new, but it does not follow that icon veneration is one of those changes.

@munkee59 Месяц назад

If I might suggest working on your ecclesiology first. Find the "Pillar and ground of Truth" that Christ promised "the gates of hell will not prevail against." Jesus left us His body, the Church which He entrusted to faithful men, who in turn entrusted it to faithful men, He did not found a Bible study. Otherwise, you're just lost, clinging to your reason, and latching onto whatever opinion makes the most sense to you and your own personal judgement. The early defenders of the true faith (E.G. St. Athanasius, St. Irenaeus, the Holy Fathers of Nicaea, St. Justin Martyr) countered the heretics, who based their arguments on solely Holy Scripture and their own reasoning and rhetoric, with the Apostolic teaching and tradition that enlightens the meaning of the text. Why would one trust the Holy Scriptures that these men passed down to us, but not their teaching and understanding of the faith? It's also helpful to keep in mind that the Eastern Orthodox Church never experienced the upheaval of a reformation. If you're so minded, I highly recommend Fr. Stephen DeYoung's book, The Religion of the Apostles. But, further, actually visit an Orthodox parish a couple of times, it has to be experienced outside of the written word.

@tjkhan4541 Месяц назад

@@munkee59 hey friend, I appreciate your insights. I can’t promise I’ll read Fr DeYoung’s book, but I will look it up. Can I ask an honest question: because Irenaeus believed that Jesus was around 50 years old when he died. He thought the very youngest Christ could be was 44 years old at the crucifixion, and he got historical dates wrong. Do you accept his position on that topic, or is there a consensus position among Orthodox about Irenaeus’s view here? (I am assuming you are Orthodox, so please forgive/correct me if I’m wrong.) Grace to you, friend.

@munkee59 Месяц назад

The church doesn’t take the pious opinions of the saints as infallible, even the Apostles were mistaken from time to time. Look at St. Peter’s initial attitude toward the gentile converts, and the subsequent council to correct the Church. No, we look to the areas where the Fathers and saints speak with one voice in unison. This is the Holy Spirit, guiding the Church, and protecting the Apostolic deposit. I hope you would visit one of our parishes at some point. My first visit and I didn’t like it at all, but with time (years), God’s patient guidance, and study, I was able to see. I don’t know if there’s a way to DM on RU-vid, but I’d be happy to answer any questions you might have.

@tjkhan4541 Месяц назад

@@munkee59 sorry friend, I forgot to respond to you: I appreciate your kind words and your insights. May I ask, what specific kind of Eastern Orthodox church do you recommend? I live in a metro area and there seem to be quite a few different kinds.

@munkee59 Месяц назад

Antiochian, OCA, ROCOR, would be my preferences, but Greek, Romanian, etc. would all be fine as well.

@eteixeira3532 Месяц назад

The name of God is not a separate thing from God, this argument is just absurd. It is not a "mean", like the nature, the trees or the skies. When the Angel of the Lord was guiding the people out of Egypt, God said the angel HAS HIS NAME IN HIM, it is GOD HIMSELF guiding his people. Not even the fathers would abide for such an argument and comparison.

@pipefitter82 Месяц назад

I beg to differ: “And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you” (Exodus 3:7-8, 13-14)

@pontification7891 Месяц назад

@@pipefitter82 - He is actually correct, brother. Fr. Steven DeYoung makes the case (ref. The Religion of the Apostles) that the 'Name of God' is actually a stand-in for what we call the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. Also, if I'm not mistaken, in the Hesychastic Tradition there's direct and indirect implication that the Name of God is God Himself, but I should look up the details.

@pipefitter82 Месяц назад

@@pontification7891 I stand corrected. I completely miss understood and read into the original statement falsely. forgive my ignorance and presumptuousness @eteixeira3532. thank you @pontification7891 for taking a stand for truth and reason.

@vladislavstezhko1864 Месяц назад

The thought of Jonathan Pageu is essentially justifying the Orthodoxy from the postmodern (or post-metaphysical) phychological point of view or offering 'Orthodox teachings' with such an understanding. If you listen to his videos, he basically says about how something in the Holy Scripture is "true from the symbolic point of view" and it symbolises this and that. This is unorthodox, because Orthodoxy believes the Holy Scripture to be litarally true. Always in his videos: "what is really meant is...this and that", and then he talks about the symbolism. He offers a symbolic interpretation on his own which is not in the Holy fathers. This is based on the assumption that the teachings of the Holy fathers is not enough; that he has come to some deeper, more profound understanding This kind of symbolosm is not at all how the Holy fathers understood the Holy Scripture. There is no need to accept the Scripture as true with Jonathan Pageau's way of reading it. This is not the faith.

@lazzledazzle7827 Месяц назад

Brother, this is a false dichotomy. Symbolism is where reality and meaning converge, it is not the same as allegory. Pageau does believe the events did take place, he just happens to also believe that many of these events reflect higher spiritual truths, like how human beings reflect and image the higher truth of God. Pageau has discussed this at length. Please be careful before rushing to condemn.

@lenk172 Месяц назад

It's funny because atheists have the opposite criticism and are surprised to find out he actually believes things in the Bible happened, and that they're not *only* symbolic/metaphorical.