I love how Vengeance is opposite of Enterprise in every aspect: minimal crew required, color, size, shape, sound (canon and warp engine) even when it’s move in warp when Enterprise is shaky and Vengeance is stable
@@simul8guy75 I've always subscribed to what we're effectively hearing in space movies are the sounds *inside* of the ships and that you're not actually hearing what you would if you were actually in the vacuum. Effectively if the camera, as an entity, could hear in multiple places at once.
@@MikeTheGamer77 The majority of Trek ships can fire while in Warp. Budget kind of prevents it and everyone relevant has FTL sensors. If you don't your at the mercy of anyone capable of Warp combat.
Good news is that she ran all the way to the bridge to tell him in person, instead of maybe using some kind of instantaneous communication device; otherwise, the Admiral wouldn't get such great timing.
@@eXcommunicate1979 I mean I’m no physicist but I’d imagine going at the speed they were their bodies should of been completely destroyed because of the micro debris that fills the universe like hitting a dust particle at that speed should blast a hole through you so I don’t think anything will be left of them in real life but then again as I stated stuff like this isn’t my profession 😂
I always wondered if getting sucked into space and getting sucked into the “warp field” was any different. I mean, you’re probably still REALLY dead, but... you know? Maybe your atoms get pasted across every point in the universe at once. Or maybe you end up in Schenectady.
Evil admiral: "Ha ha, got you! Now I'll blow up your ship and no one will ever know what happened to you" Starfleet ground control: "Holy shit, the Enterprise just warped in like a bat out of hell, along with another ship we've never seen before! Good thing they're just past the moon so now we can see everything that's going on!" "Should we hail them?" "Nah, pass the popcorn"
Maybe we should activate some sort of defenses as the capital of a large interstellar government whose enemies can drop in within moon orbit in easy range to attack our people? "Nah"
And at the very least, do something with the tail Nacelle protrusions? I never really understood why incorporate into ship design, but as you just saw here, afew precise hits to the warp nacelles and boom your back in real space. A serious design flaw the federation should really look into correcting.
@@varenshan7731 True, though do not forget that the Federation primarily explore with such ships. There might be ships built more for defence stationed around worlds. This was at least shown in Star Trek: Enterprise with certain ships posted at Earth itself. As for the design, the sleeker look was certainly adopted by the 24th century.
@@varenshan7731 I would have thought there would be shields first and foremost. That is something they haven't really shown in the recent movies unlike the older ones. If you watch clips of the Enterprise E fighting on RU-vid, you can see the ship has multiple levels of shields.
@@darkjediknight2923 I always thought the reason it protrudes out of the ship was do to it being an older design when shields weren't as effective so when shots hit they usually went through and if they were all on one then it's harder for them to create a seal to contain the damage also it may help with emergency landing on exploration missions to cushion the landing like how cars have crumple zones idk
You know, the real bothersome thing about this was that the Admiral was firing to destroy as opposed to cripple the Enterprise. Which really demonstrates how far he and his crew had strayed from their oaths as Star Fleet personnel.
@@danialh.8031 Well section 31 has always been doing the dirty work for the well being of the federation. They even have an ai outbreak which forced discovery to travel to the 31st century
@@Eradicator-jv9xr True. But Section 31's aim is to serve Earth and the Federation to protect is values, security and vision. It was never about killing Starfleet officers whom it holds in high regard. It would be unthinkable to destroy a Federation ship and have innocent FEDERATION lives taken.
@@darkjediknight2923 well in this timeline section 31 got way more funding and can do whatever they want for the federation. They will wipe out almost anything standing in its way, even if it means destroying the flag ship of the federation and declaring war on the klingons.
Ah yes, I remember this scene. I remember thinking. “This is going to be a badass battle. Sure wasn’t expecting it to completely beat the living shit out of the the Enterprise
The Vengeance caught the Enterprise while on warp, such thing wouldn't be possible in the prime universe for like 150 years, the Enterprise just won because of pure plot armor
@@yurialexandre2037 Your right in the Enterprise having plot armor, however Starfleet has already had warp ship battles, long before the Kirk era, in the NX 01 Enterprise 100 years before, which is also Canon with the Abram films, long story short that Enterprise had many battles while at warp, so idk why its a big deal 100 years later on both universes 🤷♂️.
@@USAgent-gk8es Usually when its a big deal in the Next Gen era, it's because the Hero Ships of Starfleet are often the fastest ships in town, so anything outrunning one of them is moving FAST, like, Romulan Supernova fast.
@@MemoirsofaBasketcase fortunately, without deflector shield their demise should be relatively quick as relativistic debris rip their body apart Also I thought eyeballs are pressurized? Shouldn't they explode?
That's why any spaceship should be depressurized when entering a combat situation. The idea of pressurized combat station is kinda dumb since any breach of the hull means critical damages and tremendous oxygen losses
@@rigen97 Our body is pretty good at keeping itself in a body shape. Our tissues are strong enough to not pop with a difference between body pressure and vacuum. If I remember right, our eyes would instead boil/freeze simultaneously, and our skin would expand so our body is about twice normal size. Incredibly, agonizingly, unbelievably painful, but not explosive. It takes far larger differences, such as going from pressures multiple times normal to vacuum to cause our skin and membranes to rupture and pop.
Star Trek 1: *Enterprise is the pride of the fleet and the biggest vessel the Federation has built* Star Trek 2: *combines a Juggernaut, cement truck, star destroyer, fat kid with a thyroid problem, and a random Warhammer vessel* "Vengeance truffle shuffles on scene"
@@kreigguardsman3355 Cept in FTL travel, that's the only thing that Star Trek has going for them in most aspects though it would be hilarious to see a Star Trek vessel accidently enter the warp.
Because JJ Abrams has no clue about Star Trek and admitted as such. Hell, he was proud of it. He wanted to make a Star Wars movie, so he made Star Trek into Star Wars. You can't fight in hyperspace, but he didn't know enough to know that warp and hyperspace are two very different things. Now, Star Trek has suffered immensely for his hubris.
@@compmanio36 Star Trek Enterprise, which is fully canon, presented battles in warp. I can think of at least one scene where the Suliban fired at the NX01 while at warp.
@@compmanio36 if I recall you could use torpedoes at warp but not phasers. However, within the Warp bubble phasers could still be used, but collapsed once they exited the bubble.
@@coreliousc8915 Yeah, the torpedo specifically has a warp field sustainer engine that "grabs" the warp field from the ship and allows it to be maintained, although it cannot go to warp from sublight on it's own. The TNG tech manual went into detail about this. Then suddenly it was OK to fire phasers at warp in Enterprise, long before such things should be made possible. I would have had much more respect for Enterprise and what came after it if they stuck to the restrictions placed upon the universe that made things interesting instead of "pew pew" as things have become. The other poster was right this started there and not just JJ Abrams...he didn't help things though.
The TOS-novel "Dreadnought" from the 80s had a similar overpowered ship called the USS Star Empire. It's plot is quite similar to that of "Into Darkness".
If Starfleet in the Prime Universe had a few ships like the Vengeance the Federation would have defeated the Dominion rather quickly even if it didn't have the help of the Klingons and Romulans.
Weirdest thing for me was that they came out of warp right over the Moon and no other Starfleet ships came to see what the hell was going on! You'd be able to see a battle like that happening with the naked eye from the Earth's surface. Spacedock could've sent a fleet over there in 5 minutes. No ships, space stations or satellites visible near the Moon. No apparent moonbases either. Nothing. Did Marcus broadcast some sort of message like "Nothing to see here, ignore the giant unknown evil starship attacking the Enterprise- again nothing to see here, move along, thank you for your cooperation". Oh yeah, and the powerless Enterprise being rapidly pulled down by Earth's gravity from that distance. Even in science fiction you can't just ignore physics like that without some sort of explanation
Well, as for the fleet not seeing them fighting, there is a very clear and plausible explanation. The Admiral simply either told them to not intervene or made them leave on another mission or whatever. As for the enterprise getting caught in Earth’s gravity, yeah, there really isn’t much explanation for that.
@@immortalgaiden well, by starfleet standard, sure. but they haven't made any battleship yet in this timeline. it would probably be classified as battlecruiser at most in more combat-oriented culture.
FYI the Vengence-class is playable in Star Trek Online, and is actually one of the better ships in the game. By most measures it's one of the top 3 Lobi Crystal ships. (Which are much, much cheaper to buy on the exchange than Infinity lockbox ships.) It handles better than expected for its size, has the maximum number of weapons, a hangar bay, and one of the highest HP multipliers of any ship in the game. On top of all that, it's a fullspec intel ship, which means it has access to Surgical Strikes 3. Or in plain english: you can fly it in the game for cheap and it's every bit as badass in the game as it is in the movie.
The psychopath was Kirk. He would have risked to bring back Khan and his race to Earth so they could commit genocide. But if he could have brought him safely in prison, holding a person captive (no fredom) is more painful than killing him, therefore more psychopatic.
The Vengeance in this Starfleet would have saved them from the wars to come. Admiral Marcus had the balls to do what was necessary to protect Starfleet and Earth.
One of the things I enjoyed about this movie was the sound design for the phaser cannons. Those screechy blasts still manage to have a lot of weight and punch behind them.
I remember seeing this in IMAX for the first time and could not help but laugh and cry. The sheer ability of the Vengeance to not only catch up but overtake the Enterprise at warp and fire on them was just insane. In speed calculations it would be as if the enterprise was going warp 7 and the vengeance just went warp 9 with no problems.
Well... ya... if they had the nerve to go with warfare more. In legacy star trek they only threw in war due to popular demand really. It's always been more about exploration and mind expansion. Since The Undiscovered Country there really hasn't been shit from the series.
Agreed, though it should be noted that the proponents of these projects are war hawks, and an aggressive federation is one that would stand to lose a lot. Pacifist ideals are okay, but as teddy Roosevelt puts it, speak softly with a big stick
Note that the Kelvin timeline ships are a fair bit larger than their counterparts, and the vengeance is actually bigger than the two largest enterprises most commonly known (the D and E)… so this makes you wonder, if the Klein timeline ever makes it to more movies later on, will we get to see and even BIGGER enterprise D and E?
bigger doesn't mean better when it comes to naval construction. as tech gets better, it generally gets smaller. for example, a battleship or dread vs a modern destroyer in the modern navy.
@@immortalgaiden well, actually. the OG HMS Dreadnought was 161 meters long, while the state-of-the-art US destroyer Zumwalt-class is 190 meters. Arleigh-Burke classes are 155 meters, which was indeed smaller than OG HMS Dreadnought, but it was still very close despite the destroyers not intended to be "largest ship in the fleet" like HMS Dreadnought was.
Admiral Marcus would've been one of the greatest Star Trek villains if this movie was focused primarily on him trying to stir up descent within the Federation by instagating war with other planets, etc. A Star Trek political thriller kind of like part VI would've been cool instead of the Khan story they went with here.
No admiral Marcus is still limited to soem rules. Section 31 is doing a lot of dirty stuff however it purpose is still the preserverance of the federation. It's like tal shiar but human
That might have been interesting in the hands of somebody other than Jar Jar Abrams. The man has to be the most overrated director of all time!!! But I will say this he isn't the only one that has tried to cash in on the mystique of Khan. The pitiful last Next Generation movie Nemesis was just a poorly repackage retelling of The Wrath of Khan. (Red Letter Media has a fabulous Plinkett review of that flaming garbage) It's not that Star Trek wasn't in desperate need of retooling or that the franchise hadn't gotten very long in the tooth, it's that the reboot so completely failed to pay homage to what actually made Star Trek beloved and unique. There are people that love the reboot movies but very few of them are actually Star Trek fans.
@@ashleighelizabeth5916 The main gripe at the time is that they'd hired an action movie director to do Nemesis in order to infuse "fresh blood" into the franchise. I agree, the formula didnt have to be tampered with.
@@ashleighelizabeth5916 I dunno if I'd compare the villain of Nemesis with Khan. I think Nemesis wasn't even that bad, other than some things. In fact, I thought the message and the villain were great. The only things that bothered me were the beginning where they clearly broke the law about first contacts, and that the reman could have had more personality. Otherwise, I think the "Would you be a different person if you were raised differently?" subject about it was cool.
That movie looked so beautiful, imagine if they had a good script that the old star trek movies used to have. The actors were great, I loved the new music theme they had, the problem with Star Trek TV r Movies now a days is the freakin' scripts.... And it's crazy, ST used to be known for storytelling!
@@AlexTM44 Well how about this. Shields were supposed to be up when the Enterprise warped out of Vulcan but pieces of federation ships still managed to scrape metal off the hull. I wouldn't really consider pieces of metal as heavy weights compared to federation shielding.
@@idiomaxiom but you forgot this isn’t the prime timeline. And here they don’t have energy shields. For example when enterprises warped into Vulcan the debris scratched the metal from the nascelles and when the Krall swarm attacked shields weren’t working either. And about weapons we can assume due to it being an alternate timeline and due to technological advancements made due to narada they can fire phasers and torpedoes at warp.
Same problem as with Star Trek Nemesis. In the Star Trek canon it is impossible to fire energy based weapons like phasers and disruptors while the ship is in warp. A energy blast has no own warp field, so the shot travels at its normal speed which is significantly lower than light speed. That means only weapons with a warp field generator like photon torpedoes can be fired while in warp. But its still a cool scene thanks for uploading!
I'm not too much into star trek. But shouldn't it be able to fire phasers at warp when a warp field could be forced upon the target. That way it would never leave the field. This may also work by overlapping the two fields.
One issue with your claims, Firebird. This is before the era of TMP, which is when Warp and Phasers were tied together. in the TOS era by itself, Phasers were separate from warp.
@@samsonitejohnson7456 They didn't fire phasers at warp in The Motion Picture. They fired a torpedo. Actually, I rewatched The Motion Picture not long ago. If my understanding is correct, Phaser usage IS possible during Warp, so long as everything regarding the warp and what not remains balanced. When the Warp Core had an imbalance which resulted in a wormhole, the Phasers were cut off automatically.
If you pause at 3:12 right after the hull breach you can see the path the weapons fire took into the ship, the orange streak on the floor. Outside the ship the projectiles look so tiny, but in reality they are gigantic compared to people.
People talking about shields, at warp power needs to be transfer to engines, "specially when they already were fucked up". I guess people missed that detail, right? Now the most bad ass is the Vengeance having power to catch up with the Enterprise, and still have power for weaponry
if the director were smart he would have made a 10-15 minute movie doing just that, after the stupid feature was over. OR just make that the whole movie lol. wtf, jar jar abrams!
If anything, there should have been a Nemesis-style triple team against the Vengenace with a couple more ships coming in from Earth to figure out what the light show by Luna was all about.
Khan: 'If you think you are safe at warp you are mistaken' Carol: Shall I ask the chief medical officer if I can borrow his communication device? Nah I'll instead run to the bridge and even then stop to ask permission to come on to the bridge before delivering this very important piece of information. God this movie was so stupid
I can't remember where I saw this, but the Vengeance is something like 1400m long (about 2× the size of a sovereign) whereas the Kelvin Enterprise is about the size of a Galaxy class), so not quite that big a differencw
Kelvin timeline is nuts on ship scale since the Federation went heavy on their military after that Temporal Incident. Scene is more like a Nebula or Galaxy vs a Mirror Dreadnaught.
@Tactical Ginger the TNG Galaxy class is twice the length of TOS Constitution class and three times faster and over ten times the firepower. Which is exactly the same as the difference between the Kelvin Enterprise and the vengeance
@@Ohalexsimmons in fairness he had very little do with writing into darkness or rise of Skywalker and his co-writer on rise of Skywalker was basing things off of the old legends continuity and Abrams probably recognised that rise of Skywalker wasn’t good
At the end of *Beyond,* imagine if the new ship they were building at Yorktown was a *Dreadnaught class* - the next Enterprise. Just fill in the cut out section in the Saucer with science labs. The next time Kirk has a disagreement with the Klingons or Romulans… And Starfleet still has the full construction faculties hidden in orbit around Io, they could secretly be pumping them out.
Vengeance was almost more like the Kelvin timeline's version of the Galaxy class, in the prime timeline the Enterprise D is also radically larger and more powerful than the Enterprise B, but since the Kelvin timeline federation behaves almost more like the Terran Empire, of course their version is a true dedicated warship, with sections that were probably originally intended for crews and labs cut (literally) right out of the hull.
I expected the Vengeance to be the basis of the Kelvin Timeline’s Excelsior class. With Sulu commanding, since they teased him becoming a captain in this movie.
Just a thought; if the producers had known this was going to be the last Kelvin timeline film [which they couldn't have, as Anton Yelchins unexpected death messed up sequel plans], they could have gone with the Dreadnaught class Enterprise, to give fans a thrill at the idea of the early Federation being a powerhouse. But since they had planned on further films, they couldn't for plot purposes give the cast such a overpowered ship … it would be like the prime universe NX Enterprise getting their hands on the Constitution class Defiant the mirror universe Tholians stole - Captain Archer: Destroy the Cloaked Romulan fleet at you leisure Lt Reid. After all it is Trek tradition that whenever there's a newer better capital ship, the current Enterprise is destroyed, but most of the crew survive. And then they take the new flagship under construction and tough luck whoever was originally slated to be assigned to it.
They were closer than the moon to earth, at warp 5 (NX-01's top speed) they were traveling at 134,906,606,100km/hr. Sulu says 237,000km from earth. That means if they had maintained warp for less than 1/10th of a second longer they'd have been Holdo-ing right into Earth. They should have been in impulse at that point anyway.
I know right. Even at warp one, it's still less than one second if I penciled out the numbers right (237000 * 1000) to convert to meters and divide by 3*10^8 gets me 0.8 seconds at warp one, and 0.02 seconds at warp 3 using the old warp scale from Star Trek Enterprise.
@@Maxster9947 you are correct it seems people are just copying and pasting that comment without giving it thought. Two different people told him about damage, the second one even said a bulk head breach, in a panic he asks a third person where that person responds MAJOR HULL DAMAGE, which pretty much mean we are fucked lol
@@roshawn1111 "Bulkhead" is a generic naval term that refers to the walls, floors, and ceilings of all sealed compartments aboard a ship. In a Starship literally every compartment is sealed, so literally every wall floor and ceiling is a bulkhead. Since there are probably thousands of bulkheads on a ship the size of the JJprise, that was not a very useful statement in determining the damage to the ship.
@@youtubeisapublisher6407 Bulkhead means the walls within a ship or airplane, it does not refer to floors or ceilings, as those are called decks and Deckheads. It also doesnt have really anything to do with being sealed either, bulkheads simply separate compartment. Bulkhead breach means the wall separating compartments is gone or damaged, major hull damage mean just that, the damn outside of the star ship itself has major damage pretty much every where.
I just want to add, if this was the OG crew and they had 9 finger Scotty on the original 1701 or 1701-A, my man would have held her together with bubblegum and scotch tape while Spock and Kirk taught that Vengeance the finer points on space combat.
Everyone arguing that the Federation should have every ship as powerful as Vengence. But that would make the Federation humans more like the mirror Terran empire (which eventually failed). I say the Federation is supposed to represent the best of us (and other Federation species). Federation starship are for exploration, not wars.Federation Starships aren't meant to start wars, they are meant to end them.
People criticize these movies....But that ship was legitimately scary AF. Great design and production by the concept artists and sound engineers. The only thing that didn't make sense, was that if the ship was top secret...Why did the Admiral have a miniature model of it on his desk at Starfleet HQ?
Why did no other Starfleet ships respond? It warped in heavily damaged, being assaulted by a ship double its size no one had ever seen before, and the Fleet just sat there and went "cool, lol"?
@paul Provenzano Yeah but it warped to earth. You would think there would be monitor ships, ships docked at starbase, ANYTHING. But no. Just Enterprise.
This was almost like the “if he tries to escape with warp drive… he’s really in for a shock” part of Star Trek III with the excelsior, except it actually catches up lol. Also the Vengance at Warp sounds a lot like the TOS “warp sound” effect they always use, sometimes in the engine room.
When I saw this in theaters with my buddy and Khan goes "if you think you're safe at warp, you're wrong." We looked at each other like "Ooooh SHIT!" What can this thing do?! And we watched it hand the Enterprise it's ass and lost it. Vengeance was a BEAST.
Enterprise with no shields, major hull damage, dead in the water and a possible warp core breach Kirk: Evasive maneuvers! Sulu: Am i a joke to you sir?
So honestly has anyone ever wondered what happens to the people that got blown out of the ship at warp? I couldn't imagine what its like going at that speed when outside the ship.
According to revisions of warp over the years and series, they are moving normal space over the bubble at speeds much greater than light speed, so relative to Earth the bubble is traveling, but relative to Enterprise they are just sitting in a pond stable space of their own creation. By that, people would just float out like they would on the ISS on an EVA or if the ISS ruptured today. They wouldn't experience anything like light speed tears or black hole falling unless they floated outside the warp field bubble into the slipstream current caused by normal space. The transition would destroy matter as nothing with mass can exist at or beyond C. E = MC^2 In the series Enterprise they tried to show this when Trip space walked between two ships in the warp field. This VFX tried to build on that. TBH these warp scenes in this movie seemed to be one of the first times Star Trek tried to handle warp correctly to the 1960s physical postulate the old producers never understood...they just borrowed the words from an astrophysicist atricle.
This has just occurred to me how many years later. They came out of warp in between earth and the moon, and yet the federation has no presence and no recourse is taken toward the unmarked vessel attacking the prize of the federations fleet, at a distance that - by all accounts - would be well within sensor range and seconds away from a federation response. Like the movie established that Marcus was acting on his own here and the ship was crewed by security contractors not federation personnel.
You know bro I thought I was the only one to catch that. Sulu said they were 235,000 km from Earth. That's near the moons orbit distance you gonna tell me you don't have defensive Battlestations, Several Fleets around the Capitol of the Federation. A battle like that taking place that close should lit up All the alarms. If I was Fleet Admiral I m sorry Vengeance would gotten eaten up the second they came out of warp by the Uber Phasers on 1 of the Many Battlestations in orbit around earth
I love that Vengeance looks basically like a Galaxy Class ship from TNG's era. Makes sense that the tech would be available a few decades early for a clandestine op like this.
