I think what you don’t realize about Doctor Octopus was in the movie I’m certain he said something along the lines of “I had Spider-Man by the throat” , which means he got transported to the MCU via Doctor Stranges spell likely right before Tobey had given him his redemptive speech, so to me it makes perfect sense for Otto acting like a villain for a bit.
The whole point of getting the inhibitor chip for him was because the tentacles were in control of him from the point he was introduced until he gets the chip. Another reason why he was a villain
This is technically true. But I think his point is also justified. What i get from this vid is, Ock is already redeemed in spiderman 2 by realising his own mistakes. to see him revert in this movie, and needed to be redeemed again not by Ock's own choice or awareness but rather by forcing an inhibitor chip to him felt a bit lackluster.
Yeah...why exactly do we need to have Ock go through the same redemption arc with a Spider-man he has no history with? The point of the movie isn't to repeat what we've already seen. It's fanservive and an arc for Tom. Don't understand why Full Fat wants a lamer rehash of what we've seen before
From a martial arts perspective, Tom's fight scenes have stepped up a countless notches. The brutal downward elbows, web-based combos and boxing clearly shows a lot of training and great choreography. The teamwork between the spideys were a sight to behold too
I noticed that too, thought I was the only one. It was far more practical and a bit flashy at some points. Almost as if Spider-Man has gotten more aggressive in this movie
With the Lizard, one thing I noticed is he asks Electro “do you know, do I die?” I thought it was an odd line at first but then I realised he doesn’t KNOW whether he died. We do but he doesn’t and maybe Electro isn’t sure either. After all, Green Goblin and Doc Oc only rely on the words of others that they die so I guess Lizards motive could be the same as the others
@@FullFatVideos the fact he doesn’t know he’s going to die isn’t a cop out. Doctor Strange at the start of the film that all the villains die to the hands of spider man. Although this may be untrue, it may have lead Lizard and Sandman to believe that they were going to die when they get sent back.
Yes this line is the important thing in this context. And it seems like he really believes that he's going to die - so I was okay with him siding with the villians, even tough he was handled poorly the rest of the time.
At *best*, what Lizard could have found out is that he ends up getting depowered and stripped of his lizardiness, which is kind of his reason to keep going - that he's found a way to regrow human limbs, and something something evolution. Finding out "actually, if Dr Strange sends you back, you're going to lose all of that" is more than enough reason to fight and try in the new universe he finds himself in.
also, the whole point of Doc Oc helping them at the end was to prove Aunt May right. Otto wasn't being controlled by the arms and so he could make his own choices. he wasn't perfect but he had the agency to choose. Norman Osborn couldn't choose for himself, he wasn't in control. but after they cured him he immediately saw what he'd done and was remorseful. his arc wasn't pointless it was literally the central element proving that the heroes were making the right call.
Which directly contradicts Spider-Man 2 because the arms were never in full control as proven by the fact the moment he was lectured by Peter and changed his mindset he had almost no effort to regain control. It was all just the arms talking him into a different way of thinking instead of actually being controlled.
@@Cetra29 I actually take it as explaining the change in Doc Ock in 2. Just being talked to is a stretch for Otto's redemption - it feels odd and the weakest element of otherwise the strongest Spidey film. I find to this retcon an improvement
@@fellinuxvi3541 That is true. I think 2 left itself open to it by not selling that sudden change in Doc Ock, so the retcon is a "clever" sticking plaster that explains Otto's very sudden turnabout, but does lack heart. I'd have to watch the full scene again, but when I rewatched the other week prior to seeing NWH, the sudden control regain was the one element I felt came too out of the blue, so for me on balance, it worked
@@Cetra29 Yeah but my guess is that he couldn't have known that to be the case, and the Doc Ock here was taken before Tobey Peter could make him see the difference. Also I always assumed him being beat up weakened the arms enough that Pete could talk with him, as well as the shock of finding out he was Spidey. They kinda weakly stayed limp until getting a second wind to strangle him
In my opinion i prefer the introduction to Andrew and Tobey in the movie over a cliche marvel dramatic entrance, it was better a surprising moment. When they were about to be introduced i was focused on Ned opening the portal, i didnt realise he was a diffrent Spider-man but the closer he got to the camera the more it became clear to me that it wasnt Tom Holland. The relief that came when when he took off the mask was unquestionably satisfying, i think it fits better rather then a dramatic opening. As for Tobey i'd also say the quiet reveal fits better, the dramatic music would give away the reveal that it was Tobey but by silence it gives you a moment to process whether its really him. It turns a tiny bit of disbelief into somthing huge, thats all i have to say.
Good video but there are a lot of points I disagree with. Peter's intention to cure the villains wasn't really about redeeming them, it was more about giving them a second chance in their own universe. It'd also be very difficult for Tom's Peter to actually "redeem" these villains as he doesn't know any of them personally. Tobey's Peter redeems Otto through their previously established relationship. Tom's Peter has no such relationship, so it wouldn't really be possible to redeem him in the same way. Lizard and Sandman may not die in their repsective films but they don't know their ultimate fate. After learning that the other three villains they're trapped with were killed by spiderman, it makes sense for them to assume they die back home too. Until andrew and tobey show up there's no one around who could tell them otherwise. The problems with spiderman 3 and amazing spiderman 2 were not necessarily the overabundance of villains but rather the fact that each villain had a disconnected story. I think the large number of villains works better here as there's no need for villain origin stories and their motives are all alligned (apart from sandman, and I agree he was done dirty). I find your point about "fixing" Tom Holland's spiderman being a bad thing because it wasn't necessarily the original intention for the character a bit strange. I think no way home feels like a natural place to take the character. As you mention, Tom Peter makes some pretty big mistakes that put a lot of people at risk in his movies, and I think it works well to have him finally hear the classic "with great power comes great responsibility" in this movie as up until now he's had great power but hasn't been very responsible with it. By the end of the movie, he realises Ned and MJ are much better off not knowing he's spiderman and chooses not to tell them, which is his first truly responsible decision. Even if this soft rebooting of his spiderman wasn't the original intention for the MCU, I find it a very natural direction to take the character and it reframes his past mastakes as being character flaws he has now overcome.
Yeah, I think maybe Sandman's motivation could have been he didn't want his powers taken away because he wanted to protect his daughter or something. Maybe he wronged the Mafia or something and he needed his powers to keep him and his family safe or something of the sort. And maybe Tobey could have then promise to help him or something. That is just a vague description of a way it might make sense for Sandman to turn on Peter.
Octavious was fucking impeccable in No Way Home. Dare I say even better than Norman. Every time the Doc talked, I was glued to the screen and enthralled. Even when imprisoned, he commanded the room. Molina still has his stride. Not to mention his unwilling resistance to being cured contrasted with being able to see Otto good again. "Dear boy..."
Otto was awesome. I understand what Full Fat’s criticisms are. But I was not on that emotional wavelength with this movie whatsoever. It’s the multiverse, you want to bring a character back prior to their death/turning good or whatever ... we already had an entire television show about that called Loki which didn’t ruin anything
I completely understand your sentiment about losing the pivotal moment in Doc's arc that made his character so compelling, but where I see it differently is that rehashing or picking up after would undercut his sacrificial death. By pulling him out of his world moments before his arc completed, we are able to get an alternative version of Doc we hadn't previous seen. A Doc who now has to go through a different arc, not necessarily better, but as writers and fans of others creative work, we should all appreciate a new writers chance to create their own way of finishing that arc even if it might be inferior. Even that being said, if it is inferior, it isn't garbage, it's just very different. The way he disappears with the villains and then reappears fighting alongside them, gives the audience a sense of confusion as to wtf happened, until he turns on the villains when they think he's their allie. To me this shows how smart he is, that he knew he could manipulate this situation to help Peter and successfully manages to turn the tide of the fight by capturing Electro. Sure, it's not the arc we all know and love from Spiderman 2, but that's what makes it great, if we want to see that arc of that version of the character in this multiverse being built, we have even more reason to revisit that movie. This movie doesn't devalue the old, it reinforces their greatness. The writers here wanted to respect the past movies and give them a podium to stand on and I believe it succeeds at that. It's surely not a flawless movie, and I have my own criticisms as a lover of writing and film, but it is a very inspiring film with heart and emotion made by people who loved the source material and put everything they had into juggling the massive expectations set for something like this. It was an impossible task to satisfy everything, but rarely do we see such incredible inspiration in super heroes as of late, and it still is a monumentous cinematic achievement regardless of it's imperfections.
@@ashthetrash3197 you have to agree cuz its a fact, time goes in a line, and will repeat itself these are the same villains from the same 5 movies we saw before, but they are taken from certain points in the timeline, so it took them.
Exactly!! The villains worked in this movie because they weren't put through the same exact circumstances as before. They did something new and interesting with them. The only one who had completed his original arc was Sandman. All the rest were pulled out before their finales and were given second chances. Same characters put in new circumstances.
Respectfully, I highly disagree with MANY of the takes in this review. Spidey facing off against the actual Sinister 6 was honestly just too high of an expectation for the movie. In the final confrontation, only THREE of the villains (Goblin, Electro, Lizard) had actually joined forces. Sandman just wanted to go back home regardless of whatever happens to everyone else while Ock had already been turned "good" by then. Plot wise, I personally never expected them to face the full Six. The fans saw the trailer and the variety of villains and simply assumed there were six. It's still possible DaFoe's Goblin could return and lead a Sinister 6 including Scorpion, Vulture, Morbius, and others.
There was no way to do the Sinister 6 without repeating villains or using Venom (and they are clearly saving villains for later). Heck, Full Fat was also complaining about there being too many villains and not enough time to give them all dramatic redemption arcs
@@TheJadedJames Lizard and Sandman were fine. In fact, I've never been a fan of Lizard, but I genuinely thought he was especially cool in No Way Home, despite him being one of the lesser villains. Cooler than I remember him being in Amazing Spiderman at least. People just need to rewatch the movie and pay attention next time. I watched the movie lightheaded and overwhelmed by hype and everything, but even I in that condition, easily grasped all of the vilain's motives and reasons for why things happened in the movie.
There wont be any Sinester Six because Sony wants to make a movie with them as anti-heroes (pretty much Suicide Squad), still, they never said anything about this movie even having 6 villains, same situation as with Mephisto, fans just have absurd expectations based on youtubers making shit up, and that is starting to ruin some movies and TV shows...fans expected Mephisto in Wandavision, Steve in Falcon, and Spiderman in Hawkeye, and they got upset when that didnt happen...you can already see 40 minutes long videos claiming that "Andrew Garfield already signed to have a new trilogy" or stupid stuff like that. Studios should step in, because these assholes are hurting their products and brands.
I'm so glad they didn't do the Sinister 6 with these characters in this movie. Making Doc Ock a full-on villain would have ruined the character from Raimi's Spider-Man 2 for me.
Sandman actually wasn’t siding with the villains. He was just trying to get the box in order to press the button himself. He isn’t trusting of either side and just knows he needs the box to go home. Connors on the other hand was afraid he might die in the future as he has no idea what actually happens, so it makes sense he’d wanna destroy the box as well. He knows if he stays in the MCU he will live with 100% certainty. However, if he goes back, there’s a chance he might die. He’s just looking out for his own preservation.
That makes 0 sense as the good guys always were to send them back. It was literally what they were caught for and it would have happened after the cure anyway. Flint only did not trust him when he did not know the plan.
@@Cetra29 if it makes zero sense to you, then you clearly weren’t paying attention to the dialogue. Which is easy to miss with all the action. Watch it again and pay very close attention, because I’m not the only one who noticed what was actually going on in the end. I myself watched it twice and didn’t even realize until the 2nd viewing.
@@discolullaby5777 I watched the movie 3 times, idiot. Dialogues and what was shown do not always mean that it makes sense, also it was not displayed like that at all. And I never hated on Andrew Garfield so get the fuck outta here with your assumptions.
Actually, I thought the introduction of the 2 spiders was done exceptionally well within context. Where not in the middle of a battle or anything, Peter is simply at his lowest point, and bringing the 2 Spider-Men at that point not only was a treat, but brought a sense of comfort and hope. Also I would say that it benefited the 2 actors because they were within character 100%, not missing a beat. Also if you look at the reactions online, everyone was good with how they were introduced. I just have to disagree with that opinion because it could have been so much worse.
I agree with you on a narrative scale but the camera just points at the kitchen counter in a wide and Garfield strolls in. It's the most boring way to do it. I know people will just reply how much they loved it so what I'm saying is rather meaningless anyway. Oh well.
The point in the story in which they're introduced isn't the problem, imo it's the fact that the filmmaking doesn't treat them with the gravitas they deserve. The scene just feels creatively flat and uninspired. How hard would it have been to give them a simple pan or zoom for dramatic effect?
@@FullFatVideos The camera work in this entire movie is really boring, there are a few shots here and there that are done well, for example the rooftop sequence where Peter watches a billboard of J.J.J. But the rest of the movie is shot pretty poorly and doesn’t serve the narrative most of the time. This however isn’t just a lack of vision from the director, it’s the lack of allowance he’s given to bring these visions to life. Kevin Feige interferes and suddenly the movie looks just like any other MCU film.
But surely a sense of comfort would remove a lot of aspects of tension and suspense built through the film? That’s NOT what’s needed just before the third act.
@@FullFatVideos I agree. The scene had little to no impact on me. Ned’s flirting mum was the only funny moment in the movie for me but why add comedy into what should be a powerful moment? Tonally the movie was all over the place for me and you mentioning camera work is only a smidge of what caused it to flop on its face from my point of view. For clarity, I think Garfield is the best Spider-Man, Maguire had a terrific trilogy and some of those villains are my favourite actors so I’m not being particularly biased.
I actually quite like how there’s three separate types of villains showing up to the final battle. Green Goblin, Electro and the Lizard show up to destroy the box. Sandman shows up to activate it and go home. Otto is simply there to help Peter do the right thing. Sandman wants to get the box and send everyone home before the other villains destroy it at the end.
@@O1OO1O1 Because that's the person they "die fighting against" and have direct rivalries with them, especially when Tobey and Andrew show up. They recognize their biggest threat.
@@philipb7400 To be fair, he already had his arc in Spiderman 3. He didnt have that big of a role this movie cause...he had no real reason to be there. He was done. Just wanted to see his daughter
@@maleficking6556 Also Doc Ock without the influence of his AI arms is probably not that much of an expert fighter, he's powerful support but he's not as cruel and cunning especially when compared to his early fight. I love that they got him back by feigning allegiances
I feel like you went in expecting the movie to be one thing and missed what the movie was actually about. In the whole video, you barely talk about Holland's character arc, of which everything is centered around. The movie is not about Doc Ock getting redeemed, its about Peter trying to get into MIT with his friends. Everyone has their opinions, but this feels like you went in with a checklist and forgot to pay attention to what was going on. Cause at the end of it, the Spider-Men do have a meaningful talk to save the day, they have it with one of their own. Green Goblin going on a killing spree doesn't matter to this story, what matters is that Peter didn't.
But if for him that first stand out then it's not a successful movie then. This is his opinion. Everyone doesn't have to agree. I didn't this the core movie was good either. Half way through I forgot what it was about. But it brought Tom closer to the real Pete which is very empathetic..not fan fare. Where he wants to save everyone. That's when the movie took a turn and became a spiderman movie
I don't think the op was saying everyone has to agree npc. Just that there's a difference between something not being personally appealing, nd something making a genuine mistake. They can overlap, but there not the same thing.
While I agree with a lot of your analysis, I think your mistaken with what's happening with the villains. They're not being redeemed, it feels like their being healed. This movie seems focused on mental health. I would need to see this movie again to confirm. Osborn has dissociative identity disorder, Octavius has schizophrenia- (Edit: due to a comment below, I'm putting a note here. I'm not sure if schizophrenia is a great reading of his character, but he clearly seems to be hearing voices, and I think I read that has auditory hallucinations. "Read" meaning it might not be the literal truth in universe, but more of a metaphorical representation I think the film makers might have been trying to make. End Edit), - Electro might have an addiction problem. All three Spidermen are at different stages of grief from dealing with their loss. Holland is at Rage near the end, Garfield is in depression, Tobey is at acceptance. The moment where Tobey and Garfield are talking and Tobey is trying to get Garfield To say that he's amazing is where I really realized what the theme of this movie is, or at least might be.
I've read a lot of comments about this movie. Yours is one of the few that shows you use your brain properly. Keep it up. Humanity needs people like you.
I love this perspective. I loved the scene where Doc Ock said that the voices were gone and I can’t help but feel happy for him to finally have some peace.
I didn’t really see the sandman “betrayal” as him directly betraying Peter. When all the villains attacked and escaped Peter’s apartment, it seemed more like Sandman was running away because he doesn’t believe in this Peter Parker. Then in the end scene it seemed like he was just there to get the box so he can hit the button and go home. I mean electro literally said “sorry but nobody’s going home sandman!” So it’s clear they weren’t exactly working together and it was more of a “enemy of my enemy is my friend” type of thing and sandman was just hoping to get the box first so he could go home.
About the whole 'they should have redeemed the villains, not forced the cure on them' thing, that was the thing Peter tried at the beginning. He wanted to cooperate with the villains and help them in united force, and the only one who was really forced to come along was Doc Ock. After the Goblin breaks loose, the villains betrayed him, even though Peter 'offered them friendship they spat him in the face' - if they wanted to work with Peter, they wouldn't have sided with Goblin in the first place. I don't say it couldn't have been better worked out, because it could have, but I totally get why they didn't try to go the Spider-Man 2 route.
I don't see how this movie taints what happened in Spiderman 2, at all. Like, what? Doctor Octopus is just never allowed to return as an antagonist because of Spiderman 2? The movie made it very clear that he was a pre-redemption arc Doctor Octopus. And him being redeemed again doesn't mean it's trying to compete with Spiderman 2 or overwrite its existence. It's so baffling how Raimi fanboys are gatekeeping Spiderman like this.
@@tronovonflidder775 The entire premise of this movie requires that the villains all be Loki-style “variants.” I’m totally with you. Spider-Man 2 still happened, because old Tobey is still out there. This criticism is dumb.
@@TheJadedJames It also just wasn't the focus of the movie, nor was Tom in a position to redeem these villains the same way their respective Spidermen did for them back in their own films. Anyway, someone else described it better than me, down below in the comment section, but you get my point. If you want big deep arcs for each of the villains, go watch their movies.
@@tronovonflidder775 I'm totally with you, Tom Holland's entire dilemma was whether or not it was ethical to send them back to their original realities if that meant essentially killing them, it wasn't about making them good people. He doesn't even know them
Idk about Sandman, they put a lot in the story to suggest he was distrusting of MCU Peter. He also turned on Peter earlier when he thought he'd just witnessed Electro's death when he got web teleported to prison. If he believes Osborn and thinks Peter's trying to do harm I say it makes sense that he turns on him. Many people lash out when they are afraid and don't understand what is happening.
“ a lot”, like what a glance or two and a line about how he trusts no body? Like it’s not a massive issue for me but let’s not pretend it was a massive character arch for sandman or anything
@@msburner6612 Not saying it is a massive story arch for Sandman. I'm just saying the majority of his screentime is used to emphasise that he's suspicious of what's going on and doesn't trust MCU Peter all that much.
@@The95Lol but electro straight up said he wants to destroy the box, while sandman motivation is to use the box to get back to his daughter, so why are they fighting on the same side, sandman should have been in different, fighting both sides, although when raimi spiderman come to the picture he should have believed him, he was in good terms with that spiderman and he is from the same universe, so he should have trusted him. I think they could've sandman go after mj and ned instead instead of lizard since he wants to escape through the box, but make it clear that he doesnt want to hurt anybody, he is a good guy, he just have bad luck. So have him try to talk mj and ned to let him go, but mj declines, sandman then makes the decision to trust them because mj reminded him of his daughter or something like that
@@haveidonethisbefore they literally are not fighting together, theyre just fighting the same people because they were all drawn to the same spot. electro literally tells sandman "sorry but no one is going home" after sandman says something like to give him the box or he just wants to go home. i dont understand why this is such a confusing point, its address numerous times in the movie very directly. they arent a team, but at the literal second their goals align. should sandman have gotten the box electro wouldve gone after him and vice versa. their goals only aligned for like a second, which was just defeat peter(s)
Well what people don’t really understand is that the three villains at the end aren’t really helping each other. They all show up because Peter has the box and they each want it. Electro is there to destroy it, sandman is there to use it, lizard idrk honestly. Doc ock shows up and electro just assumes he also doesn’t wanna press the button. Goblin just observes until he can hit Peter at the worst moment. They aren’t a team, they’re all there for their own reasons but they just aren’t fighting each other because they don’t care about each other, only Peter
With all due respect, I disagree quite a bit with your conclusions. You didn’t discuss the most important part of the film. The story of Peter learning that no matter what, it is his responsibility to help people, no matter what it costs him personally, and that he can’t let grief corrupt him. You said there were no good action scenes in the finale, but you did not even mention the amazing final fight between Peter and the Goblin. That, in my opinion, was the point of the whole movie. That was where the movie reached its height. Here’s the thing. There may have been five villains, but unlike Spider-Man 3, only one of them was trying to be the main antagonist. The green goblin. We didn’t need to know anything about the Lizard. We didn’t need to know about sandman. I honestly don’t think Doc Ock was that important to this movie either. The Goblin was important because he was the one that killed Aunt May and almost broke Peter. Peter was willing to help all the other villains, but he still wanted to kill the Goblin until Tobey stopped him. The extra villains were there purely to provide “the people that need to be cured.” And that is all they needed to be. If it was just the Goblin who needed to be cured, the stakes would have been far lower, and there would be no need for the other spidermen to be involved. But the villain’s arcs really did not matter. This movie was about Peter. I think that’s where you went wrong with this movie. - And as a side note, Andrew and Tobey’s introduction was incredibly funny and did not need to be dramatic. I bet it was a lot of people’s favorite scene. My favorite scene is when May dies, and Peter is in the rain, watching Jameson insult him. That scene is beautiful and incredibly impactful. I don’t know… I think you need to watch the film again, and pretend you don’t know who any of the villains are, or the other spidermen are, and just focus on the story. Because it felt a bit like you were disappointed by the movie not being a satisfying sequel to the Raimi trilogy, and didn’t recognize it as a great movie on its own.
The point of this movie is that you know the Spidermen and the villains. It is what all the marketing is about (specifically the villains). This isn't Spider verse, where you have familiar characters from different media but reinterpreted. The filmmakers in NWH decided to directly connect and reference the prior films and these actors are well known for these characters, so you can't turn your brain off to these elements because they are integral to the plot.
@@defro125 I agree with you on some level that the villains are both important to the marketing and the high concept of this movie, but it is an unreasonable expectation for the movie to have all the villains be fully fleshed out characters. The movie didn’t promise that Lizard would play an important role. The Lizard played a minor role. And just because the Lizard played a minor role in the story, it doesn’t mean his inclusion worsened the movie. This mentality doesn’t add up to me. Sometimes characters exist purely to raise the stakes and make the world feel bigger. And that is okay.
@@O1OO1O1 I explained why they are there. They provide miscellaneous “villains” for Peter to choose whether to cure, or send back to their reality to die. They did not need development. The idea that they needed development is an illusion, created by the marketing and our expectations. But the plot and story of this movie did not require it. Would the movie be better off without Lizard..? I don’t think so. Several jokes, fights, conversations, and plot beats wouldn’t work as well without his inclusion. But did he need more screen time? No. He did what he needed to do. Any idea that he should have done more is our own expectation pressed onto the movie. Sometimes side characters are just side characters.
@@O1OO1O1 they do matter, they just don't matter in the way that you wanted them to, they add to the overall threat and that's all they were added for that counts as mattering asking for any more is it simply complaining
I think you’re being a little bit unfair…the complaints you have about sandman and lizard can also be leveled at Spider Pig, Penny Parker, and Spider-Man Noir from Spider-verse. Plus, Doc Oc’s redemption shouldn’t be as good as it is in Spider-Man 2; he has no personal connection to this Peter Parker, so why would he have the same come back to the light moment for Tom Holland? Also, neither Sandman nor Lizard know that they live…if anything, since they can see all the others are about to die, they’re probably going to assume they’ll die once they get sent back too.
30:00 you gotta realize that peter did already try to talk them out. That’s what led to them all agreeing to go to Peters and aunt mays apartment. But after there being a lost life, it urged peter more to get them cured so that they don’t cause more deaths. It works with the story
I feel like so much griping about all the villains' redemptions kinda misses the mark of what the movie's main focus is. The focus is Tom, how he goes from Spider-Boy to Spider-Man, and his main conflict is with the Goblin and within himself. Tobey and Andrew are there to inform mainly that and that's what they do, the stuff with the other villains is there mostly for spectacle yes, but that is not a bad thing, not all of them needed an arc. Ock's arc was already perfect, they shouldn't have done the same and couldn't make it better. He was always a good man under a terrible influence. Tobey could talk him into overcoming that because they were the main characters and had a bond over the whole movie. Tom simply isn't in a position to do that because they don't know each other and he has many other things to tend to, so it makes perfect sense that he uses his techy genius to eliminate the influence and let the good man come through
If they had done emotional redemption arcs for the villains, all the same people would be complaining that they’re treading the same ground again. The entire conflict of this movie wasn’t about Peter being invested in the redemption of the villains; in fact, the whole point is him deciding to do the right thing even when it stops feeling right to him. At the end of the day, the final battle with Green Goblin isn’t even about curing him, it’s about whether Peter will kill him or spare him after what happened to Aunt May. When he told Goblin “I just want to kill you myself,” it was a shocking moment that gave me chills. Tom’s performance was great and I really believed he truly wanted to kill him with his bare hands, it was unsettling. Absolutely love how that entire sequence was done; he didn’t even let up after Toby jumped in and caught the glider. I understand people being disappointed that we’re sort of just now establishing his true origin, but this moment was just as impactful to me as Uncle Ben’s death and Peter’s misguided search for revenge in the original Spider-Man film.
Perfectly said. Full Fat claiming Tobey is the strongest because he stopped Tom from killing the Green Goblin, just summarises how deluded and biased he is with this one. He's obviously just a Raimi fanboy who wants another Raimi Spiderman film just a tad bit too much.
How are villains gonna redeem themselves anyway? All of them were corrupted by their powers. Like, Goblin, Ock and Lizard didn't have full control over their actions. Electro was too consumed by power, especially considering how insane the energy in MCU universe was. Sandman didn't need redemption, he didn't care for the cure, he just wanted to go home.
@@tronovonflidder775 do you understand what deluded actually means? It's not what you think it means. The Raimi films make these films look bad. That's what he understands that you seem to not.
He's saying, as characters, they were wasted. Compare them to say, Nemo, or Killmonger, or even Vulture. Those characters were done justice. Lizard, Sandman, and everyone else were not. They could have used scenes with them for making the rest of the movie better. Less is more.
I think when they both walked in it was rather done well. There isn't something grand and epic that needs to be done to call them in like the Avengers. They are just spidermen, Peter Parkers these friendly neighbor heros. I think something small and contained like this suits their characters. And the moment of them talking with one another and having that moment of shooting webs at each other helped make it more enjoyable. I get what you mean but I just saw it a different way.
There was something humble about them showing up in Grandma's Kitchen, nothing flashy or over the top, just like having family over for holiday dinner and you haven't seen them in 10 years. They just walk in and it's like you never stopped seeing them.
Oh wow. How do they not need a grand entrance? The villains got better entrances than the spiderman did. These are the spidermen and they just walk into the scene. Lol ridiculous
I think Garfield's introduction was good. Tobey's was definitely underwhelming but the initial shock of Andrew just casually walking in was good. Don't agree with the Doc Ock part either. This movie wasnt trying to be Spider-Man 2. Its just not possible, so you cant judge the movie by that standard. What's really wrong with forcing them to be good or depowered? But I agree with the sandman part. It really made zero sense. Edit: Complaining about there being no six for the sinister six while also complaining about there being too many villains...Cmon
I agree, on my second watch I understood that tobey was meant to be underwhelming because of his awkwardness and calmness compared to Andrew’s loud sarcastic self
Spider-Man NWH I prefer this alot more then Spider-Man 2 tbh…I prefer this over Spider-Man 2 like this is the greatest movie ever! This isn’t even Spider-Man 2, or even close to be shit like Spider-Man 3 and TASM 2 this is better then TASM 2 and Spider-Man 3.
@@Tarriq I think its great cause Andrew is known as the best 🕷so he came in with his suit and tobey is known as the best Peter parker so he came in as Peter parker
It's honestly becoming hard to watch reviews for this movie because most criticisms of the move are more or less I'm mad they didn't make the movie I wanted they made the movie they wanted. I respect your opinion but alot of your points feel like either nitpick or expecting this movie to be spiderman 2 or spiderverse. It's not really fair to the movie to keep comparing it to movies that this movie was never trying to be
He's wrong on almost every point, the only glaring problem with the movie was the Lizard characterization. Considering its ambitions and its execution in comparison to some other franchises, this movie was a masterpiece.
The only faults with the MCU in my opinion are: 1) It is coming down from a major high in Endgame, this drop off in quality writing and storytelling was obvious as they need to establish new characters and dynamics. 2) The MCU shows, though I have enjoyed them all, are leaning a little too much to the movie formula of having a super fast pace and feeling anxious about developing the story in a short time frame. 3) It has been so successful for so long now that contrarian bs artists are nit picking every little detail of COMIC BOOK movies just so they can either be miserable about something because they haven’t matured away from the teenager mentality that everything sucks, or they’re just a youtuber looking to push culture wars by crying about women, or gay people being allowed to be superheroes. This means that every time there’s a film that’s just decent, like Black Widow or Eternals, it’s lambasted as the worst comic book movie ever, despite the fact theyre both objectively superior to the best films the DCUE has to offer.
No, it's just that you, like countless others, seem to have no idea about what makes for a good movie. That's why Bladerunner 2049, which makes this movie look amateurish by comparison, made very little money. They compare it to Spiderverse and Spiderman 2 because those are _GOOD MOVIES_ .
@@miniman2132 They're starting to feel like DCEU films. They screwed up Black Widow. How the hell did they manage that? That's like screwing up Batman or Superman. It's almost impossible, but they did it. And, let's remember: how'd that work out? Also, Joker and Suicide Squad (by James Gun) makes Black Widow look bad by comparison.
Personally I feel like every returning element couldn’t possibly have been treated with more respect. Sandman and Lizard are hard nuts to crack, but for me they felt totally consistent with the already pretty messy characters they were in their own movies. Can’t agree with the “becomes a different movie” point. Frankly I’m not just pleased but *impressed* with how cohesive this entire movie felt, and how every decision ties back to furthering character.
At this point they could have just brought in Avi Arad as a villain, telling Spider-Man he should sell figurines and make movies and that'd probably be better than what they did for Lizard and Sandman.
Yeah it kinda made sense that Sandman just wanted to get home without caring about what happens to the other villains because he knows at least 2 of them did died fighting Spider Man. In his mind he's like "Well even if the kid manages to cure them they are going to die anyways"
I for one agree. Sandman isn’t allying with the villains at all really, he’s more there by necessity more than choice. The other villains want to destroy the box so they aren’t sent home, Sandman wants the box exclusively so he can go home but he’s willing to go through whoever he has to to do that.
Doc Ock is definitely different for the worse in this film. In the Raimi films Molina has said that one of his favourite parts of the character is his calm and sardonic attitude in the face of adversity. In No Way Home he has a tiny amount of this but for the most part is just a haughty guy with a hot temper who is easily angered.
@@Qarth56 Ok so? It’s a new spin on the character. Doc Ock at his core has always been this egotistical, unstable jerk and he’s in a completely new universe that until a few hours ago he had no idea existed. Anyone would be irritable to say the least. Plus, they probably had him turn up his temper to emphasize how much the cracked inhibitor chip and the arms are messing with his mind.
@@keeganmayers6925 ok, but narratively, it makes absolutely no sense to have him stay as a villian, it would completely eliminate the development he had in SM2.
I felt like Full Fat was too attached to this “redemption” angle when most of these villains really were just victims. And because there is a very particular way he seems to want villain resolutions to happen, it would basically be impossible for a single movie to do it in under 3 hours
Them just walking in feels like a deliberate decision. Everyone in my theatre was on edge throughout the movie and popping that tension with them coming in unceremoniously made it better.
Sadly, it didn't help in my cinema. Cue screaming and 'woo'ing and the two women behind me not shutting up for the next 5 minutes as they told each other things we were literally all watching on the screen together!
Well its all taste but I thought it was the least imaginative way to bring them in. Spider-Verse does it so much better, even when its just the remaining Spiders hanging from the ceiling of dead Peter's cave.
Agreed. Doing the dramatic reveals with swinging in and saving the day is so cliché and would just be such a tiresome trope, I much preferred the subdued entrances and the humour they got out of it. There’s already enough fight scenes as is, too
@@FullFatVideos one way they could've done was to show both Tobey and Andrew saving people from their respective villains who are now on the lose and the following the track to MJ and Ned or something. Comparing it to Spiderverse is completely unreasonable when the situations and circumstances of the moment were completely different, and they even had the comic book origin thing for all of them, which is something they also really couldn't have done here.
@@FullFatVideos I feel like you get that same dramatic punch with the following introduction scene of Tobey/Andrew to Tom anyways tho (them revealed posing on the water tower against the backdrop of moonlight, kinda framed similarly to the ITSV reveal too oddly enough), so I was cool with them not repeating the same trope for their initial reveal, instead just having em pop in & have human interactions with Ned, MJ & Ned’s gma. Felt like it was more true to the characters in my opinion & it felt like the people behind the scenes were conscious of that fact. edit: I also love that Andrew’s reveal, with him climbing on the ceiling & hanging by one hand with Ned there, somewhat mirrors the Homecoming scene between Ned & Peter in the apartment; Andrew needs to prove he’s Spider-Man & that’s exactly how Ned knew his version of Peter was Spider-Man
I don’t think it turns into a different movie when the other Spidermen show up (nor do I mind that scene, though I see where you’re coming from) and I don’t think that doc ock or the other villains were ruined at all, I though they were handled well myself. He was brought in before he was redeemed and I don’t think they were trying to top the redemption cause it was done so well before, so I agree the redemption was better in 2 but I think what they were doing works for the movie, but I see where you’re coming from even if I don’t agree it ruins the movie. Interesting point about sandman, though I’ve heard it said that he sided with whoever he thinks will when, and it didn’t ruin the movie, but a fair point. I agree him being sandy the whole time is disappointing. The lizard wants to use his serum, so I don’t have issues with him siding with the villains. Yeah doing a sinister six would have been cool, venom was there for them to use had they wanted to. An interesting point about the villains going to the apartment, can’t say in bothered me and I think it’s in peter’s character to give them trust them, but again an interesting perspective. Can’t say I had any issue with the structure either. I disagree that the movie only begins when the other Spiderman show up, but that that part is it’s own section of the movie. I also didn’t feel the movie felt cramped without time for characters personally. I thought the fan service was done well, works for the story, and not forced (or pandered), some have some ideas on what we could have seen, but I enjoyed what we got. The action seemed fine to me, there are other action scenes that are perhaps better in aspects, but I still enjoyed/didn’t mind what was shown. Yes marvel movies are cinema, some are better than others but at their best they clearly all. Overall I thought it was a very good movie. I’ll always love the Raimi movies the best, but this is definitely up there and the best of the Tom Holland movies for sure.
I think the introductions were the way they were because a big dramatic entrance didnt have a place immediatley following the death of aunt may Peter needed emotional support The most important thing about the other spidermen being present isnt how they physically help peter but how they help his growth emotionally and help him get up after being knocked down worse than ever Their entrances werent about big specticles it was about a glimmer of hope in a hopeless situation
There was nothing wrong with the introductions, it's at a perfect point in the movie where the odds are severely stacked against the lead and he's alone and suffering. If there was anything off about it it was some of Tobey's dialogue delivery and his bomber jacket, his character got better as the movie progressed. Andrew just blended back in the role seamlessly. Some of the threesome dialogue went for the joke too early at the expense of tone. That's about it. Considering the scope and scale of the movie, the balls the director was juggling and comparing this character with most franchise sequels of the last decade, this was a fucking masterpiece. How Disney execs didn't fuck this up is the biggest surprise of the year.
I even agree with you, but they still could have done it better while maintaining that tone. FullFat didn't say we needed spectacle, just something more than "walk in from the street."
I just see it as a slight inconsistency that the sling rings require you clearly envision what/who you're looking for, and then Ned somehow finds two other Peter Parkers who look nothing like Tom Holland's. Just a minor complaint, as I also realize he is still new to using the things.
“I don’t think there was any action in the finale that was good” Well, to be fair, their goal wasn’t necessarily to hurt the villains. It was to cure them. So that’s kinda why they didn’t really beat their asses hard enough. Still a great final battle tho. And damn MCU Peter was not holding back on Goblin.
great point the biggest problem i saw was tobeys spiderman looked a bit goofy and was expecting a little more fight between andrew’s spiderman and electro (as a rematch) and probably a fight with goblin with the raimi suit otherwise the plot the emotions the fanservice was great lovely movie
That last fight was kinda intense not gonna lie. I frankly have never seen Spiderman genuinely loose control and have intent to kill someone, and it is Scary af.
@@finqimalo4541 Eh, I think the point was that the Spider-Men we're working as a collective, you know, taking down each bad guy sequentially and sticking to a plan.
@@kennethsatria6607 This is purely headcanon so I might very well be wrong, but I would argue Tom's Peter *didn't* lose control in the final fight against goblin. Well, he did, but he wasn't going all out. Peter is ridiculously strong. He effortlessly stopped a supersoldier with a metal arm and carried multiple tons in his back (Civil War), and if we wanna go really deep, in the comics he once ripped Scorpio's Jaw with a single punch while being controlled by Doc Ock. I know Goblin is also durable asf, but I'm not fully convinced he would survive a Peter that's *not* pulling back his punches. Instead, what I believe happened is that he was pulling his punches to make sure he didn't kill Goblin immediately, and instead tried to make him suffer before using the glider to actually try and kill him. Again, dumb headcanon that isn't even that good, but eh. Your point still stands, Tom's enraged Peter was one of the scariest things in the movie alongside pretty much the entire Goblin character.
I loved this movie. And while I completely disagree with Full Fat’s criticism and think it is a misguided perspective to take on a movie with this premise, I get what his criticism is.
@@preds43 No, he clearly was not. Watch Spider-Man 2. Otto was not the raging madman in Spider-Man 2 that JUST was a victim of his AI. He was a man who teamed up with the AI that was amplifying his desires and silencing his morals by talking to him a few hours after the chip broke. In this movie he was reduced to "the arms made you mad and in a bad mood" which was never the case. The arms only seduced him to do what he always wanted because they were mirroring his wishes as he programmed them to carry out the wish he always had and also never turned him into ragey mcrageson. They were like a bad person that is telling you what you need to hear for you and them to get what you want. That is also why he only needed 10 seconds in the old movie to win over the arms after Tobey told him that his bullshit desires did not matter if everything goes to hell. Because he was fully conscious and only needed a voice of reason that meant something to him. Otto in the original was lured to become a villain based on what he already wanted, in this movie he was completely puppeteered without a proper sign he was colaborating with them and without pointing out the arms were all actually just another mirror of Otto's wishes. Otto in the original was to blame because he consciously decided the arms and his wish were right, in this movie he was not. Now it is just "uh, the broken chip made you a victim of the arms." The old movie was not like that, there was an actual personal layer to it. On top of that he was treated like comic relief.
Most of your problems with this movie seem to come from you comparing them to literally everything else, which, fair, considering the context of this one, but saying that the fights were not "Raimi tier" or that "Spider Verse introduced the other versions of Spider Man better" when it was a movie with that premise in the literal name, it just feels a bit redundant when you realize it didn't really need to meet any of that criteria to be as good as it is. Sure, I agree that Sandman had literally no reason to be there and his motivation made no sense and that Lizard felt like he was peer pressured into joining the party and that Ock's arc wasn't as good as it was in the SM2 and that both Tobey and Andrew didn't exactly get a grand entrance but it honestly just feels like you're prioritizing the wrong things. Yeah, the villains could've been better utilized but the movie sure as hell wasn't about them, so expecting Doc Ock's arc to live up to the movie he was the main villain of is just insane, I would've also loved to see a Dr Strange vs Lizard fight but if one of your complaints is that most of the fights felt pointless then I guess it kinda defeats your point, and Tobey and Andrew didn't NEED a grand entrance like Cap in Infinity War, what really mattered was them finding Peter and what happened from there, not their introduction, which I do agree could've been done better, like showing them saving a bunch of people from their respective villains who are now on the lose, and then tracking Peter from there, which would help address your criticism that them escaping didn't really matter at all, which is valid, but again, priorities. I definitely see where you're coming from and I agree with quite a few of your points to an extent, but honestly it kinda feels like you're prioritizing complaining about what this movie did worse than the others than what it did right, not looking at the movie for what it is, or just expecting it to do the exact same shit as the ones you liked the most. You complain about there not having a sinister six and then complain about it having too many villains, then you complain about the fights not being good but then you ask for more fights that wouldn't actually add anything, then you complain about Doc Ock being beaten by a little bit of Stark Tech, which no shit he was beaten by tech that is capable of doing exactly what he took a whole movie to do. The guy has four robotic arms, Stark Tech can make Thanos bleed, it's kind of night and day, and let's not even talk about the huge plot hole that is the fact Spider Man didn't just knock out Doc Ock in SM2 with one punch in all their fights even though he definitely could have, because Doc Ock is just so stronk and tough to take down. Then you complain about them forcing the villains to take the cure even though that happened several times in the other movies and your only example to counter it is SM2, which I don't think I need to say not every movie has to be like that and if every solution was to just reach out to the villains and tell them to stop, this would be called Steven Universe, and after a while it feels like you're just saying "however" for the sake of it. Not saying you're wrong or whatever, just saying that you should try to watch it without thinking "Raimi did it better" every five minutes, even if it's true for several instances, because again, surpassing Raimi wasn't really what this movie needed to do.
True, the movie it's good but no way near the best of Spiderman, the original trilogy and into the spider verse put this movie into shame in terms of quality if we analyze it objectively, but it does not mean this is a bad movie.
@@eliasfigarzon9813 I definitely liked Spiderverse more and both it and Spider Man 2 are definitely better movies overall, but if all my criticism of a movie is based on looking at two other movies and saying "it should've done exactly that" then I should probably just go watch that instead. This movie didn't need to do the same things as those movies did, they had completely different proposals and objectives, so even if those movies are masterpieces in their own right, I love this movie because of what it is and what it meant, not for what two other movies were.
@@eliasfigarzon9813 that's the thing, you literally can't analyze this movie objectively because it's meant to be treated as an event, kinda like endgame, you can't compare something like NWH, that tried to juggle so many different things from different movies with entirely different direction and vibes, to something like SM2, homecoming, or ITSV. The movie isn't trying to be a work of art, it's purely fan service
Dang, I basically respectfully disagree with almost all of these points. I won’t go too into detail, but I do think it’s a bit unfair to judge the movie based on what you wanted/think would be better and not on what we got. I get it, it’s a huge release and it’s hard not to set certain expectations, but a lot of the complaints in this video felt more “____” should’ve been “_____” instead of appreciating what we got. Still, great video and happy holidays!
I have to disagree with you about how the other Spidermen are brought in, in retrospect it was brilliant because you don't immediately realize it's a different Spiderman. Ned uses the sling ring to make a portal and we see Spiderman in an alley looking confused, this should have been an immediate red flag but for many of us it just went over our heads. It wasn't until he got closer and I started to see this is a different suit than the one Tom Holland had been wearing that it finally hit me (as well as my audience) what was going on and it works so well because it's so late in the movie that I was starting to wonder if maybe Tobey and Andrew really weren't in the movie after all, couple that with the incredibly tragic scene with May that we'd all just witnessed and yeah, the other Spidermen weren't even on my mind. For me this is my new favorite Spiderman film, a genuinely touching and heartbreaking story that also managed to be the ultimate Spider-Man dream film. The possibilities going forward are endless and I cannot wait to see what's next for the webhead.
Don’t pretend that marvel had to do anything creative with the Spider-Man’s entrance. You would’ve shit your pants regardless. It’s not hard to excite a MCU fan in a MCU movie.
@@dessmi9184 Well that's true, they didn't have to do anything clever yet they still chose to. That tells me this moment was something they took very seriously, after all, why put effort into something when you know you don't have to?
@@MrEffectfilms It was an obvious way to do it imo. They’re looking for ”Peter” I bet nobody else with that name will come through right? It’s pretty obvious just like green goblin stabbing tobey with his knife and he doesn’t even get a remote tingle from his spider sense. It felt like the movie was trying to be a comedy while super dramatic it’s a balance that I felt was unbalanced.
@@dessmi9184 MCU fans aren't mindless drones that just praise everything in the MCU, Inhumans failed and nobody watched it and it deserve to fail because it was bad; (so was Iron fist) all the other MCU movies this year didn't make nearly as much money as this one because a lot of us didn't care, (black widow as alot of people say wasn't that good) yes the overall success is due to people having an interest in the whole thing but we can tell the good from the bad, it doesn't have to be this Shakespearean dramatic entrance it could just be what it was, a little clever, simple, and sweet
I think because the lizard was an alternative personality he was “killed” when connors was cured so he dosent want to die by going back and being cured That’s how I took it at least
Andrew and Tobey might've arrived in Ned's grandma's apartment but they had louder cheers from the audience than Thor in Infinity War or Cap lifting Mjolnir
Don’t pretend that marvel had to do anything creative with the Spider-Man’s entrance. You would’ve shit your pants regardless. It’s not hard to excite a MCU fan in a MCU movie.
I feel like the perfection of SM1 Goblin/Spidey fight inspired the goblin fights in this film, which I thought were a wonderful throwback considering how many practical stunts and wire work and hard hitting sound mixing… …and dare I say: Gobby laughing as he was getting punched had a vibe so creepy and satisfying that I’d put it on par with Ledger’s Joker moment of the same vein…
It was far better than Ledgers overrated joker. Goblin in this movie was far more insane than Ledger's joker. Ledger's joker seemed more like someone acting like they were insane while Goblin in NWH seemed like someone who was actually insane
@@galaxymoonlqght3732 I am not saying he wasn't good, I think he did play joker just fine but I really don't understand the hype around him in that movie. He wasn't the most entertaining part of the movie for me I found the character he was playing a bit boring (I don't think it's his fault at all just how the character is) because the joker can't exactly physically fight batman like ras al guhl and bane can so the action scenes were rather bland in the movie and I much preferred the other two movies. I always love the origin stories and the finales for trilogies most but for some reason the middle movie always gets praised way too much. The dark knight was the weakest of the 3 in the trilogy in my opinon. Also about what I said about goblin being the more insane villain, that is obviously not heath's fault it was just the script the joker just isn't insane even though he likes to act crazy while dafoes goblin was changed because of a failed science experiment which makes him that way and joker has nothing like that and goblin is a more entertaining character.
Yeah...I was way more excited when Andrew and Tobey made their appearance than any other moment in an MCU movie, and apparently the entire audience in our theater agreed with me as well. I've never heard louder cheers and applause in a theater than with this movie. And I think that's the point. People don't really need a huge build-up for a scene in order to go bat-shit crazy when the reveal happens, cause it ain't the build-up that makes it special, it's seeing the characters they've loved for years. And honestly, the huge build-ups are pretty cliche for me anyway, so having a simpler reveal was a nice break from the troping that happens a lot in MCU movies.
There have been three times in my entire life when I’ve been in a movie theater where the audience cheered at something. First was Cap lifting Thor’s hammer in Endgame. Times two and three were Andrew and Tobey’s arrival
This was the happiest Marvel and Spider-Man has made me in a while. That's absolutely no disrespect to Spider-Verse or the Gamerverse but seeing Tobey and Andrew on the big screen again and Tom finally becoming Spider-Man.....that was truly remarkable.
Hm... Honestly, the villains and the previous Spideys were great, but I think that the most important part of the movie was how it focused and developed this Peter in particular. That is what I feel holds everything together and makes all the fanservice work.
when mentioning spider-verse. why didnt you bring up the fact that peni parker, peter porker and spider-man noir just appeared in mays spider-man basement lair out of nowhere when it was convinient to introduce them? They didnt really get an "introduction", it was mostly just played off as a joke. Also, they dont go to ant mays apartment, they go to happys apartment because Ant Mays was unsafe and they have that stark 3D printer that can litrally make anything you can think off.
Doc Ock and Goblin were great in No Way home, other villains were hit or miss but I do like the changes they made to Electro, and the fact ones such as Sandman were neutral until there was a threat of death that shook his trust. Green Goblin especially was quite intimidating on screen, helps that his face wasn’t covered by the mask either…. Made Wilem Dafoe give a lot more unnerving expressions when fighting Tom Holland. Tobey and Andrew were handled exceptionally well, brought in at a moment that allowed us to take a breather and feel something other than dread for Tom’s Peter. It’s great how Instead of having Tobey and Andrew brawl with each other in the first encounter they had a Web Duel that perfectly encapsulates the skill of the two, very great scene. Best part being Tobey’s cheeky smirk after countering Andrews webshooter. Aspect of No Way Home I did not enjoy was the quick cuts…. It makes it very clear that the actors were not shot in the same scenes a majority of the time. That’s my only real issue with the film, but given the pandemic we face it’s understandable that some setbacks would be encountered. Regardless though I find the movie to be a great conclusion to Tom Hollands first Spider-Man trilogy, finally giving him the proper direction he needed to go. I give No Way Home a 9/10.
It appears each villain came through when they learned Peter Parker is Spiderman (except Electro, who never knew), so Lizard doesn't know he *isn't* going to die and makes the assumption that he will because everyone else will (except Sandman, who pretty obviously won't). Doc Ock hasn't had the speech, so he's just disoriented and not quite reformed yet. Besides, it's not a case of whether he's good or bad, but whether he's controlling the arms or the arms are controlling him, which they still are. It's far from perfectly logical, but not as full of holes as you're making it out to be
I'm honestly glad that the two spiderman weren't introduced with some self indulgent fanfare. Big entrances make for great moments and great events but they don't always make for the best movies. Peter Parker just accidentally getting drawn into this conflict completely unintentionally is very on brand, especially for raimi Peter. I just think a big heroic entrance could come across as pretty trite. Like a "please clap" moment. P.s I'm super fucking bummed oscorp doesn't exist in this universe. I always thought the drama between Peter, Harry, and his dad held the potential for some of the most interesting drama from the character and I was keen on seeing how this take on spiderman might handle that. Oh well
Don’t pretend that marvel had to do anything creative with the Spider-Man’s entrance. You would’ve shit your pants regardless. It’s not hard to excite a MCU fan in a MCU movie.
@@dessmi9184 I'm not an mcu fan. I honestly am rather sick of it. I only really care about gaurdians of the galaxy because it's got a strong creative voice and spiderman because he's my favorite hero. I've always found him more compelling than anyone else.
I like the theory where when strange is doing the spell in the beginning of the movie, Peter mess with it five times and strange said it was six. The sixth one was for himself since he wanted to remember Peter.
Don’t pretend that marvel had to do anything creative with the Spider-Man’s entrance. You would’ve shit your pants regardless. It’s not hard to excite a MCU fan in a MCU movie.
Sandman is an opportunist. He takes the path of least resistance and is 100% about himself. When the villains go rogue, he realizes that it's easier for him to team up with them and get the box than team up with Spidey in order to subdue the villains. He already had a tough time with Electro at the beginning. Also, it wasn't a matter of money. From what I understand, due to Covid restrictions, the actors for Sandman and The Lizard could not film on set.
Sandman didn't fight spiderman at the apartmant because he wanted to go back to his universe to see his daughter. He only battles against them at the end because he wanted to get the box and go back home. You can notice that during the final battle he creates a sand mist so he can muddle electro.
I felt that they could have reworked the "curing bad guys" part a bit. Show a Dr Octavius that, once the chip is fixed, all the pain and loss of his wife that the arms were suppressing come flooding out and he's shown broken and useless. This causes a chain effect with the others as Electro sees himself in the damaged Otto Octavius and not wanting to go back to that life. Perhaps he refries that chip again and Octavius leaves with the audience not knowing if he will return a villian or a friend. Stuff like that would turn something good into something great imo.
I saw it stated somewhere that there were scheduling conflicts with Lizard's and Sandman's actors, resulting in them only being able to record voice overs. If that's the case then it can't really be blamed on anyone, that's just life sometimes.
And who even cares if they couldn't return? Don't know why that was a big deal when those two specifically are CGI the entire time they are villains. "but I wanna see his face!" Then Google it, weirdo. This film ain't about rehashing lizard and sandman, and even if you don't know them, they really don't matter to the story.
@@Super_Broly some of the best scenes in spiderman 3 (an otherwise awful film) were those with Thomas Haden church and Tobey sharing emotional moments. For some people, the decision to use CGI just strips away the possibility for the actor to convey emotion in his acting. I don't think people have this complaint because they are 'weirdos', they just love spiderman and wanted the best movie possible
@@lucastorres7885 Sounds like a personal issue to me, I love Spider-Man 3 and THC doesn't add a single thing to it for me, he's good in the role but anyone could have been. Y'all are weirdos, it's simple as that. You call a movie trash but you want homie that was in the trash movie to return because his performance was good, I highly doubt he wants to be attached to a character from a dog ass film in your opinion. Any one could do it and I'm happy with what was given, I dont need Sandman or Lizard to ever appear in human form until cured.
On Thomas Haden Church: I think it came down to a couple things; Dude is pretty old now, have you seen him lately. So to bring him back in for new scenes, they would either have to age up Sandman, which hurts his "I got a daughter" thing if he is in his 50s and his daughter is collage age lol, or, they would have to de-age Thomas. While entirely possible as proven over and over, even in this movie with Alfred Molina....he's such a minor role, and not a huge huge name star, that they wouldn't wanna spend the money to de-age him. They did for Alfred, but him and William are clearly the two biggest stars among the villains, as far as Spider Man villains go. Yeah Jamie Fox is a big star, absolutely, but NOT for his role as Electro. But yeah, willing to go that far for one of the two most important characters to move the plot along, not so much for the guy who shows up like 3 times during the whole movie, from the 'failed' Spider Man 3 lol.
It's also important to note that Lizard and Sandman also didn't NEED to have their physical actors. Green Goblin and Doc Ock 100% did along with Electro (since part of getting Jamie Foxx back was changing the design to be more traditional) whilst the Lizard would of course always been in his monster form (until cured) while Sandman could just remain sand.
"they would either have to age up Sandman, which hurts his "I got a daughter" thing if he is in his 50s and his daughter is collage age lol" I honestly don't know how that would hurt the motivation. A father will want to always be there for his daughter no matter how old they are.
I do think they can get away with not having much focus on the villains as all of the have had a whole movie to develop them. This is Peter’s movie, not the villains
I do agree, but the best villains bring out what is most important to the hero. In Spiderman 2 we see how Otto Octavius becomes the opposite of Peter Parker and the relationship that Peter himself has to deal with in order to save not only Doc but the city.
So in any other marvel movie would you make an excuse for the villians not to be up to standard. It seems people like to pick and choose when to be critical with their MCU movies.
I'm really getting tired of these "all or nothing" video essays where people say a character was either ruined or iconic like there's no in-between. Doc Ock was fine. I don't think it compares to Spiderman 2, but this is a movie that juggled 5 villains as well as 4 heroes (3 Spider-Men and Doc Strange), multiple side characters, and still gave them all some sort of depth. That's impressive, but this whole video feels like whining. It's easy to pick up a camera and showcase what they did wrong, but try to put yourself in the shoes of writers and directors who are working with time constraints, a much larger universe that other writers have laid consequence and writing obstacles down for. Every movie is gonna have plotholes. Every. Single. One. But that's the issue, when you say "why didn't emotionally driven/disturbed character didn't do logical thing" that's like asking why did your girlfriend slash your tires when she suspected you of cheating. Rationality and logic in it's purest form isn't something humans always have.
Then don't watch lol. U don't have to agree. Just turn it off and watch a video of someone pressing it. Chill it's just hisnopinion. U can be part of the general consensus. No harm.
@@npcimknot958 It doesn't work like that, he put something out there to be judged and it can be the same way he judges these movies. If we're going by your logic, he should just chill and not make a video criticizing it. No one said there was any harm, I'm just disagreeing. There's times where this type of dissent makes you rethink certain things, but I feel he's wrong in this instance. Not every comment has to be positive.
@@npcimknot958 you having npc in your name is damn accurate. "Dude no need to make a valid statement about the video, just mindlessly consume it or don't watch the video!!!!🤓🤓🤓 it's his opinion so you can't say anything!!!🤓🤓🤓" just stop.
Doc was treated poorly in this movie. They made fun of his powers, made fun of his name, locked him up for over 20 minutes, and they threw him out the window……. JUST WHY?!! 😔😔😔😔😔😔
You make some great points that I didn’t think of but I just don’t understand how you’re able to be so cynical with the MCU Spidey films and ignore the flaws in the Raimi films. Every Spidey movie has flaws but how come we don’t focus on the great aspects in all these films? You did give it some credit but there’s a reason NWH has the highest audience rating out of any Spidey film. I love your content. Just seems like you and some others went into the movie looking for things to not enjoy. It’s all love though.
No? Also the use of older, wiser Spider-Men to help teach the youngest one yet (in terms of live-action) is genius. It's fanservice that actually benefits the character and you can see it reflected in his new suit as it uses both of their icons.
I wouldn’t say it’s the best thing ever (mostly I have an issue with how the spell happened because of no communication between Peter and Dr Strange) but the audience experience was absolutely incredible I’ve never had anything like that even endgame, it really enhanced the rest of the movie for me
Same, it seems strange (npi) that such a potentially catastrophic spell wouldn’t have been discussed before casting it. “Okay who should remember you? ✍️ ” *Roll credits*
Yes but what happens when you watch the movie with out the theater enhancement. You start noticing the flaws. That’s why people are saying it’s overhyped because a good movie is based on maintaining its merit without an audience to influence how you feel. This movie has a huge recency bias. Phantom menance and Force awakens were both loved in the beginning until people really thought about it.
No Way Home was everything I wanted and is personally one of my favorite comic book flicks ever, and I don't think that will changed, even after the hype starts to die down
Personally I think they handled every villan brilliantly. Doc Ock is still in the stage of the arms affecting his brain and so naturally opposes any force to attempt to fix his brain because that's the arms self-preservation and Peter having control of them makes sense because MCU technology will be way ahead of Rami universe technology. As soon as Ock's brain is fixed he's Otto from Spider-Man 2 before the incident - he's redeemed because as himself he did nothing wrong and from then tried to help Peter. Goblin came straight from being the Goblin but after the confusion of being transfered to another universe Normon gets control and fights off the Goblin for a bit until when Osborn finds a cure the Goblin side cannot let that happen and gets full control - from then Goblin is characterised as wanting power "strong enough to have the world, not strong enough to take it" because Goblin sees the world as losers and winners. As song as he's cured Osborn is just silent - he seems shaken by what he's done just like his reaction in Spider-Man 1 but has salvation in the fact that the Goblin side is gone. Electro is taken to another universe where the electricity is different, like a new drug addiction to him. Then when he sees Doc Ock get cured he accepts getting cured might be best for him and is letting the energy go - he's accepting losing the one thing that made him special thinking he was going back to who he saw as a complete loser - Until he sees Goblin come in and saying how the powers were gifts and Electro terrified over being left to die or being the only one who accepts losing his power breaks it off and then later tries to attack the Spider-Men in order to preserve his life until he's cured and the addiction is gone letting him see rationally and sadly accept he's going back to his lonely life and goes on without attempting to get revenge or regain his powers before its too late - again redemed. Sandman's not redemed but his actions make perfect sense. From the first scene of him in No Way Home he just asks Peter "what's going on how do I get home" and when Peter identifies a threat he teams up with Peter to stop it. When he realises what's going on his goal is just to go alone with Peter's plan in order to get back home to his daughter as soon as possible - he doesn't care whether the others die or not he wants the box to be activated because he knows he won't die and he'll go back to his daughter. He leaves when the others do because there's no reason to stay when he knows Peter's given away the box and comes back to try and get it to activate it because he knows the other villans likely plan to destroy it to save themselves and leave him stuck in this universe. The reason the Spider-men have to fight him is to stop him using the box so they can save the other villans and there isn't a cure they just contain him until they can send them all home. Lizard realises from the beginning that the villans aren't just going to be cured them sent home peacefully - he's intelligent enough to know it's not going to go well so he waits then leaves with the others - his goal is to escape being cured and prevent the box being used so he can survive and maintain his desired "lizardness" and potentially spread it in this new universe. He's cured like the Amazing Spider-Man. And yeah it's a shame it's not the Sinister Six but the story they went for wouldn't work for it. They wanted to humanise the villans and redeem/cure them and when trying to do that you can't really have this Sinister team up - they would have had to introduce a sixth villan and explore that characters motivations and would have to modify the existing characters to make their team up make any sense and when you have to modify characters for a story that's bad characterisation. There's still a chance for a sinister six in future - In the MCU we have Vulture and Scorpion doing something that could lead to that - if we go back to the Amazing Spider-Man world we have its tease there and they're supposedly making a sinister six film which they could take and crossover into one of the spideys world. Overall I was really impressed with the way every villan was characterised and motivated and before watching No Way Home I was really scared they'd turn all the villans into just generic villans but they definitely didn't.
I didn't know that was unused Amazing Spider-Man footage for Lizard at the end there. I was wondering why he didn't get a quick talk at the end. And yeah, Sandman was really meh here. Very unfortunate
I thought it was cool how he was helpful and supportive at first, but then once the magic box had a threat of death he joined up with the other baddies to stop it. That or the power from coming to this universe was messing with his mind, since even when Tobey brought up how they were just trying to help he wasn’t understanding until he was cured.
While I think many people are dumb for being confused by his motives, (seriously, just pay attention to the movie, it tells you), I do agree he's the one villain that didn't leave much impact. But at the end of the day, we can't be too greedy. They did deliver a lot with this one. Like what, would you rather Green Goblin sacrifice his screentime for more Sandman stuff? I wouldn't. Sandman's fine, but Green Goblin is better, therefore I'm happy he got the most screentime.
@@Vmeg17 Also the whole Cgi sandy normal human sized base form thing they were going for with him went against how things were set up in the Raimi version. He always looked like a normal person when he was back to his normal size..
I feel you’ve missed the point of the introduction to the other Spideys. Because we’re not introduced to the other Spideys. We’re introduced to other Peter Parkers. And Peter Parker is just a guy.
@@FullFatVideos For me i found it fine, i feel like uno "when all seems lost hope is found" kinda moment applies here it doesnt have to be grandiose or dramatic because the main point is for them to help out mcu peter which did have an entrance/intro scene for them but towards mcu peter which works there that type of introduction also mj and ned dont know andrew and tobeys peter which is why i think the introduction is simple they have epic scenes respectively in the movie later. plus the comedy and little fight they had between andrew and peter was perfect Personally i feel like this is a nitpick which is valid ofc but for me not vital to the over-arching story
@@FullFatVideos if spider-man introductions are meant to be grand entrances, wouldn't peter be the complete opposite? tobey walks in like he smoked some bud on that skyscraper, no suit. it's great. andrew immediately takes off his mask to calm everyone down since they already know his name. pretty in character for a scene that focuses on peter and his sadness, and not him being just a superhero. scenes like this are honestly rarer than they should be in MCU. i think the characterizations of the old spidermen and the villains were pretty well done. key plot points were convoluted (the spell, or how exactly it brought these specific villains in but not emma stone or james franco, kristen dunst, etc. ), but who the fuck cares? by the end none of it happened. and spiderman learns how to be spiderman. let's hope they step it up from here on out though, and maybe get inspired by how daredevil handled matt murdock. that show is damn good TV and if spidey meets DD, he can finally have some plot threads of his own and the relationship between them can be less like tony / peter and more team based. the storytelling that can happen as a result of NWH is great and they can finally stop having peter, a 17/18 year old, save the world and instead focus on his GED 💀
the entrances for both spiderman not being epic is very simple, it's supposed to be light-hearted and comedic. Was it a good idea? I dunno. Was it bad because of it? not really. You complain about their introduction not being as easy to ease into as Spiderverse and yet you forget the movie isn't called Spiderverse, it's not designed to have more spidermen as the movie's purpose. The two other Spidermen show up out of nowhere without any heads up is because their narrative purpose is to support the main story which is about Tom's spiderman, which you don't seem to have many problems with. You're assuming the villains joined up with norman but that doesn't appear to be the case, they all just left and separated. Sandman and the lizard are not in agreement with Green Goblin, nor are any of the villains really "redeemed". You complain about Ock's arc not doing anything different and yet you want it him to be redeemed the same way? Ock being redeemed the same way in Spiderman 2 or in a way appealing to his ideals and relationships have no place in this movie because those things are not related to the story, you can't expect the story to do that, that's eating a cake it doesn't have a purpose to make. 99% of what you've said so far is pretty much just nitpicking about things that don't fit your liking without considering any narrative purpose or straight-up misunderstandings. You've said it yourself, you say in your perspective the movie only starts when the two spidermen show up, which already shows that you view the movie as a spiderverse type movie instead of one using that circumstance to grow Tom's spiderman.
I appreciate the critique and level of analysis that was done on this video review of no way home, however I think there are certain points that may be are just favoring the Raimi trilogy bit too much. They were great films and they gave us a new idea of Spider-Man, however they weren’t technically accurate within Spider-Man as a character especially Toby‘s portrayal of it. Spider-Man was honestly more on par with Andrew Garfield’s performance throughout the two movies obviously the first being the best one of the amazing Spider-Man. And Tom Holland actually had some good notes and it was very high school just like His first hundred issues of the movie. And I think that this was a great movie that portrayed Tom Holland‘s Peter Parker going from high school to college as the switch changed to a lot more dramatic more adult themes in his college years rather than the easy going figure it out by the end of the day original Spider-Man in high school. And I think this movie did a phenomenal job with that aspect, however I agree with a lot of the things mentioned with some of the characters really getting a disservice from their final arcs especially Dr. octopus. But we might be able to see a new portrayal of these characters now that they can be alive and not dead. We could see a lot more in depth analysis of the directors vision of these characters.
38:59 as a collector of Star Wars toys (kinda lol, I’m not a completionist or anything, but I do love them), the Rise of Skywalker was not a commercial for action figures BECAUSE THERE WASN’T ANY TO SELL! When the film released, there were like four 6-inch scale figures, like three 3.75-inch scale ones, a really expensive X-wing unlike the more affordable ones of the previous movies, a couple of animated-style ones, some droids and stuff… there wasn’t really a big action figure line, like at all. Like 75% of the film’s characters never got toys, except for Lego.
I really liked No Way Home, but I agree that it isn't the best Spider-Man movie ever. I think most people say that because so much of it felt emotionally rewarding. It was a great experience, but there are aspects of it that fall apart when you look further, unfortunately. I can't say I agree with all that you said, but thanks for making this video!
I was thinking it and I'm glad I didn't need to say it it saw it's tying 20 years worth of Spider-Man movies together and they're very beloved and very iconic and there's just no way of doing a legacy sequel like this and making everybody happy there were going to be some people disappointed it was inevitable
I think Lizard was the only problematic inclusion but everything else was handled well. I love the part where Electro was basically winning against 3 Spider men at the same time because Electro is just that powerful.
I more or less agree with everything you've said. Yet, I don't think I've enjoyed a film as viscerally in years - I was in tears on numerous occasion. And yes, it was pandering and clunky, but, in the moment, I genuinely didn't care.
The only thing i agree with you is the odd time gap situation with the villains. My guess is that they were trying to figure out how to go home by themselves
Electro at the very least was explicitly wanting to stay, and I assume Gobby as well since they are told they're all going to die if they return home. Maybe Doc Ock at the most, but very unlikely to be a goal for the rest of them.
I'm glad to see somebody actually having a critical eye on this film People are treating it like the 2nd coming of christ and it just gets annoying I'd even venture to say if it weren't for Tobers and Jonathan Larson showing up people would say it is a mediocre film
I agree with a lot of this, but I feel the exact opposite way about Doc Ock, and to a certain extent Electro. As you said, Doc Ock's redemption in Spiderman 2 is perfect, but in order for the rest of this movie to work, the villains need to show up before they died, aka before his redemption. So how do you bring in the redeemed version of the character while maintaining the movie's premise? Simple, we've already seen in S2 that he's not a bad guy being influenced by the arms. In order to NOT have to redo his redemption arc and bring back redeemed Ock in the context of the movie, you kind of have to negate the influence of the arms and trust the audience to know from his prior movie that without those he is already a redeemed character. This allowed them to move the character forward without spending too much time retreading old ground. Similarly, I think that your view of Electro is flawed. His chat with Garfield isn't a redemption, it's a way to help Electro come to terms with the fact he's now lost his powers. Not everyone suddenly becomes a good person by the end, but all of the Parkers are trying their best to help everyone however they can. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well, but yeah I feel like that's more of Andrew Garfield trying to bring comfort to someone who just lost a large part of their identity, not a full redemption. Just my 2 cents though.
Agreed on Electro, but not on Ock. The chip is part of the equation, but the original movie makes it clear that pre- and post- accident Doc Ocks are not entirely separate people. The arms influence him, but he is still corrupted, and part of the catalyst is the death of his wife. He isn't magically a bad person because the arms control him, nor a good one when they don't. This is why they kinda ruin Ock for me here.
Man, as someone who literally grew up on the Raimi trilogy, I’m so tired of people comparing EVERY iteration of Spider-Man to Raimi’s films. Yes those movies are great in their own way and very influential, but that is ONE director’s vision and take on the character. Not every single piece of media containing Spider-Man needs to be “Raimi level”, this isn’t Raimi’s movie it’s Jon Watts’ and this is HIS (slash Disney’s) vision of the character. I feel like it’s completely unfair to constantly disregard what these films do with Peter Parker character wise to show his growth simply because they didn’t do it the way Raimi did. NWH showed that everything we’ve seen of Tom in the last 5 years has been his growing period, his origin into becoming the Spidey we know. I think it’s genius, especially since we’re used to skipping out on that part of Peter’s journey and always just skip right to when he’s already Spider-Man. We actually watched this Peter Parker grow up.
This is an issue with most Spider-Man related discussion online, but especially with this guy. I love most of his videos, but he very clearly has a blinding level of nostalgia for the Raimi films that makes him unable to critique the rest of the Spider-Man films properly. I have basically the exact same criticism Hi-top films come to think of it.
I knew this movie was never going to be a spiderman 2 or a spider verse. But it was still pretty good. Yeah, the action sometimes are lackluster but the performance of everyone and how the story played out was good. The first half wasn't really good, then the second half happened and then it turned great. They somehow made the green goblin so much scarier and I felt bad for Norman everytime the goblin took control. I love the way they use the spidey sense, especially in that one scene, its so tense and nerve wracking. Otto and Tobey! Peter meeting each other again was so great, Otto was happy to see Peter has grown up and Peter was happy to see his old friend alive again. Andrew! Peter saving MJ and crying, thinking that he probably could have saved Gwen but at the same time he felt like he redeemed himself from his failure. The ending, don't get me started on the ending. The ending was so bittersweet, tragic, but still had a silver lining of hope, which is perfectly spiderman. I know it's faults and all, but it still ended up being one of my favourites.
The acting really was the best thing about the movie. Which is a shame, since it means the other departments were constrained somehow. I suspect by Marvel.
I disagree with your take on Ock for the reason that I always thought it was a cop out to tie Ock’s villainy to the inhibitor chip in the first place. Ock’s villainy was portrayed as a light switch moment in 2 and a bit of another light switch moment to redeem him back to what he was. He only had one encounter with Peter before he became Ock and we were supposed to rely on that to get us to buy that Ock is redeemed. I thought that was kind of lazy anyway. At the end of the day, it was always the easiest solution to help Ock. Once you tie his problem to the chip then the obvious answer is to fix the chip. End of story. Anything else is just accessories. Plus it’s not like MCU Peter could even redeem this Ock since they have no prior relationship at all to rely on unlike the Raimi Peter. And I do want to say that your problem with Lizard and Sandman not dying in their universes doesn’t hold much water since they don’t know that. Lizard literally asks Max if he dies back home because he doesn’t know.
They made it pretty clear in Spider-Man 2 that ock was they way he was because the inhibitor chip was fried. They actually went out of their way to point that out.
@@rogerkirby6883 Actually Spider-Man 2 shows the exact opposite. The chip was only partially responsible. The arms did not do all the work of him becoming a villain. They talked to him about ambitions he already had.
@@Cetra29 I don’t think that’s strong enough. If the only thing that sends Ock over the edge is the destruction of the inhibitor chip then he isn’t that villainous. If he can properly inhibit himself without the arms then I don’t care what his underlying ambitions are because he can keep himself in check. There was no indication that he was a villain without the influence of the tentacles. Now if he were on the precipice of breaking bad then I would argue that the inhibitor chip wasn’t needed as it muddled his characterization. You’ll now have people arguing back and forth about whether the chip made him a villain or his underlying ambitions. And if the answer is really his ambitions then why is the chip even needed? It’s just kind of a double motivation. I think what you’re saying is interesting, but I just don’t feel that Ock really came off as a villain prior to the chip being destroyed, which really sends the message that the loss of the chip was the catalyst.
@@Ren_Davis0531 No, there was no hint that he was a villain without the arms but my point is he was not a villain JUST because of the arms. They whispered to him and convinced him not to listen to his morals but the stuff they convinced him of were ambitions he himself already had. That is what my point was. While No Way Home made it seem like it was just the arms which SM2 showed not to be true because the moment Peter convinced him he only needed 10 seconds to control the arms again. So it was all about his own mindset.
So, I can't do a full breakdown of your points because simply put, the comment cap won't allow me. So I'll tackle the most annoying ones Here. I'm starting this comment at 16:22, which is also the timestamp of the first time you mention Doc Ock, in the video titled "Was Doc Ock ruined?" It took you almost 20 minutes simply to mention his name. If you were going to do that, you should've left him out of the title. I get it's a clickbait attention grab, but I don't like clickbait attention grabs, so it's a negative for me. Anyway. Your point about Tobey and Andrew's intros was understandable, yet meaningless to me. I get that a more dramatic entrance would've been good, but what we got was fantastic. It was a perfect way to introduce them in my eyes, having the portal open, seeing a spiderman just far enough to not see who it is, and for him to rush forward and reveal it's Andrew? Spectacular. I admit that Tobey's entrance hit less because we knew what was going to happen at that point, but they subverted it with him not being in his suit; instantly confirming that this was an older, wiser version of the character. They knew they had to do something, and they did. Also, your comment on where they had been during the movie thus far was.. confusing? They explained it. They were searching for Tom Holland's peter. They had been there a few hours, and they could've appeared from anywhere within New York. You expected them to instantly find Tom Holland? That's dishonest to the movie Side note, Yes, Tobey is the strongest. He's the oldest, by a lot. He's matured into his full potential. It wasn't shocking that he would be the strongest. Holy shit this point on Doc Ock is aggravating. "He doesn't get redeemed, he just gets pushed into the mold this peter parker wants him to be" Is one of the worst takes I've seen on this movie that's worth talking about. He doesn't get redeemed, because he was never evil. The arms took over his mind, they were forcing him into a viewpoint he didn't hold himself. If the neural inhibitor was never broken, he would have never committed the crimes he did. In Spider-man 2 Peter parker reached out and was able to remind Otto of who he is, he doesn't convince him that what he's doing is wrong. Otto already knows that. All Parker did was remind him of what he truly is. You say it's a retread, but it isn't. It's an entirely different path for otto. You think if Tobey's peter had access to a new chip, he wouldn't have forced it on otto?? Of course he would have. The same way that Andrew saves Curt Connors from the Lizard, if they are able to be saved, that's the direction Peter Parker takes. Especially Tobey's parker. All of his villains die in ways that Tobey didn't want. Otto, Norman, and Eddie all kill themselves in their own ways. What would you have had them do? Keep him a villain until the final scene and have an entirely new conversation of Tobey convincing him to go good again? Where in Spider-man 3 does Sandman swear off villainy? He just leaves. He keeps his powers. He's still willing to do anything to save his daughter. There is nothing there showing that he was redeemed, only spared. Not only that, but even if he was redeemed, he was redeemed with Tobey. He has no connection to Tom Holland. He doesn't care about him. So him betraying Tom Holland doesn't effect his arc with Tobey in any way, not that there was an arc to begin with. Sandman and Lizard being present in the movie was great, they were lesser characters in the plot, but they were not useless, and they did not suck. both of the characters got quite a few laughs out of the audience, and were properly used to the extent they could be. It would've been cool to see them do more, yes, but they were used great with the timespan given. And sure, they won't die when returning, but guess what? They don't know that. Lizard asks Electro if he dies, but doesn't get an answer, and Sandman is the latest in their timeline, everyone else dies, so it's natural to assume they would as well. Because this isn't the sinister six. This isn't the sinister five either. It's five villains, none of them his own. Are you really gonna tell me that if they added ANOTHER character in here, and had Tom fight the sinister six WITH two other spider-men, you wouldn't get on here and say something like "Tom Holland didn't even get to actually fight his sinister six, they weren't his villains, and he didn't fight them alone!" Tom Holland is getting another trilogy, the end of that will most likely have him face off against his true sinister six. "Or Tom Hardy's Venom" Yeah there was no reason. Certainly not to give Tom Holland his own symbiote story, along with most likely his own Venom. None at all. I'm getting real tired of people sucking off the original trilogy. Those movies were good for their time. The train scene in 2 is great, yes. But they looked passable at best in today's world. The stories are fantastic yes, but the look of the movie? and the feel? Homecoming and Far From Home have them beat in all functions in my opinion. Not that those have better stories, because Homecoming at the very least doesn't have a better story than Spider0man 2, but looks? Easily. 20:41 Yes, having Goblin speaking without Norman's mouth moving. Great scene to choose for this point. Sorry that's a nitpick. Sorry??? No no. Peter, Miles, and Gwen are the only characters who feel important in that movie. Peni, Porker, and Noir? They're side characters at BEST. With about as much impact on the story as Lizard and Sandman in this one. They were side characters who were given side villains to battle with, and had little to zero impact on anything plot wise. Sorry, but you're revealing your hand here. You're sucking off Sam Raimi so much. You say you went into this movie with higher expectations than you should've, but no. You went in with incorrect expectations. You were expecting a movie by Sam Raimi, and once you found out it wasn't, everything else was bad to you. I want to try and give you the benefit of the doubt, but I simply can't. You're not portraying yourself as unbiased, you show scene after scene of Raimi's movies, sucking them off with the "perfection" meme so much it makes my head explode. At this point, The watcher knows who you are, and everything else you say in this video is going to be moot. Because you didn't watch this movie as a general audience member, you watched it as a Tobey Maguire stan. I don't mean this with any shade. They were good movies. But you titled this video "Review" and reviewers are meant to be unbiased, and you aren't. Also, it's 28:01 minutes in, and you still haven't answered your titles question. Now, because I've most likely hit the limit on how much I'm allowed to type, I'm ending this comment here. So here's my conclusion: This video pissed me off several times. The constant clips made my finger hover over the right arrow key after the first five minutes, and your points are not good in the slightest, I'm refraining from using more rude terminology because I don't dislike you as a person, you're entirely entitled to your opinion, but you're misrepresenting this movie. That much is clear. So to end a seriously long comment; I disagree. Lmao.
I really enjoy your comments about the movie so if you would like to elaborate on some of the stuff I would gladly read you, i felt like I was watching debate while reading your arguments.
If you havent already and if you still have the mental fortitude, could you comment on HiTopFilm's review? A lot of his points were complete bs and I know you'd be able destroy him to pieces with your words
I'm so happy to see I'm not the only one who found underwhelming on how they introduced the other Spider-Men. That scene in particular felt like something you would see in a crossover episode of a Nickelodeon sitcom. I still liked the movie though.
I think Tobey’s entrance scene was memorable and iconic but in a purely meta way. It’s only memorable not because of how he arrives but because he does and the movie highlights it which should make it a purposefully iconic scene. Even if he doesn’t do anything particularly special.
I’m just very disappointed he barely did anything after turning good! I would have loved to see Doc vs Green Goblin or Goblin and Doc team up to fight spider man!
I thought Andrew’s arrival was a pretty hyped moment The portal opens. We’re expecting to see Tom. Fans: Wait, that doesn’t look like the Tom Holland suit. Hey, that looks like Andrew Garfield’s suit. Spider-Man notices the portal and comes running Fans: Please be Andrew, please be Andrew, please be Andrew Spider-Man steps through the portal Fans: Oh my god that’s Andrew’s suit. Is this actually happening? Spider-Man removes his mask, revealing Andrew Garfield’s face The entire theater erupts in cheers. Tobey’s entrance was played mostly for laughs, but by that point it was obvious he was about to show up too.
This isn’t Toby’s and Andrew’s Movie, it’s Toms. Therefore an ‘epic’ intro for them would take the spotlight from him. If you want more of the past spider-men, campaign for TASM3 or Spider-Man 4.
Not for me he wasn’t. Nor any of the villains. Actually in my honest opinion I think No Way Home improved on some of the villains. I thought Electro was sooo much better in this movie. The Lizard was more or less the same. I just wish he had Clothes on. At least a pair of pants and a lab coat! And as far as I’m concerned. Willem Defeau’s performance was a million times better than it was in 2002! And this is coming from someone who absolutely loves his performance in that movie!
In this movie, Doc Ock gets attacked by Electro in Happy's apartment, easily survives the fall without any injuries and then he straight up *leaves*. Just like that. He doesn't even try to help Peter (despite being aware of the Goblin situation) or at least check on him to make sure that he's safe (even though Peter just helped him by freeing him from the control of the AI of his tentacles).
Love your takes. Being British, I figured you'd have more love for 2 of the 3 American icons being hijacked, but beside that. Doc Occ wasn't kicking and screaming about the new chip... that was the arms pissed they were about to lose control. That's why Octavius changed so dramatically. His actions after were that of one man being grateful.
I don’t get his opinion on this at all. I think he is too attached to the idea of Otto’s story being continued, where he explicitly died years ago, just like the other villains and this movie is explicitly pulling a version of them prior to their deaths from the multiverse. Otto never needed to be redeemed, he was never a bad person, he was being controlled by the chip. The issue with the other villains isn’t their powers, but that their powers are the reason they died, so they can’t be safety returned home while keeping them. Like how Electro died absorbing energy from the Oscorp reactor, if he returned and took one more drop, he would blow up, but now he’ll just pop back into the same spot as a normal dude and Norman without the Goblin Serum won’t fight Tobey Maguire to the death
Not that I agree with Full Fat, on this. But it is important to remember that the core thing he is upset about is that Peter saves Otto by fixing the chip, and Full Fat would have rather had a “Power of Friendship” moment where Peter verbally rallies Otto into taking control over the AI
@@TheJadedJames I don't it's about the "power of friendship" imo Full Fat was saying it's more important that the villain comes to the conclusion of turning good on his own rather than having that forced on him.
@@selfimprovement5873 Doc Ock isn’t Anakin Skywalker. He didn’t choose to be evil, mechanical arms drove him crazy. That is why I’m calling it the “Power of Friendship” Otto’s problem has nothing to do with any moral argument. He has a scientific problem and MCU Peter solved it scientifically
That's only after he had the chip what he's saying is it was better when Doc ock with willpower alone regained control of his tentacles and did a heroic act instead of him needing a crutch in order to do so.
with what you said woth Doc Ocks "redemption" in this movie the fact is thats not a redemption, this movie is not a continuation of his character arc because no matter what they would do if they tried to redeem him it wouldnt be as good as the movie that Doc Ock was the main villian in so whats the point? and clearly they dont do that character arc here anyway they goals are to cure the villians not to redeem them this is just my thoughts also for the record the action at the apartment complex with Green Goblin was better than any action in Spider-Man
The Green Goblin powerbombs were awesome, but Marvel's need to CGI everything and everyone really takes away from many of their action scenes. Many of the scenes in Spiderman 2 look much better due to the way practical effects were integrated.
I think the reason dr. Connors could have been scared of dying when he goes back is cuz electro never answered if he died or not sandman had no reason to trust Tom holland Peter Parker since he trapped him and they could have added a quick scene where Norman manipulates sandman
I really liked this movie. I was expecting something cool but they over delivered. However I think Tom Holland should’ve also had vulture included to make 6 and come on, Michael Keaton is great as vulture. I have to say, I could’ve walked out happy after seeing Charlie cox in the first 10 minutes. I do agree with you though on curing the villains. You’re totally right, it shouldn’t have been forced on them. They should’ve been talked down especially given the nature of these characters. They’re generally normal people who have a crazy ideology or bad accident. They aren’t “evil” I also think Sony is taking back the reins with this one. This movie took every MCU thing away from Peter Parker that marvel invented and the movie ends with him and a new suit. I wouldn’t be surprised if This was the last time we see Tom Holland in the MCU.
Bruh your dumb there was no reason that vulture would have to fight against Peter and he’s in the morbious universe now, and there’s no way that’s the last of Tom holland do u live under a rock bruhhhhh
@@retrohero2762 obviously you’d change some of the movie around to fit him in. I’m not suggesting plopping him down in this movie the way it is but there’s a billion ways to do it. How about green goblin reads some article about vulture fighting Spider-Man and goes and breaks him out of jail for more muscle. See how easy that was
I’ve seen lots of things talking about how sandman reverts to villainy in this film. As far as I can tell that’s totally wrong, at no point does he turn to villainy, all he wants is to push the button on the box and go home, he has nothing to fear as he wasn’t going to die when sent back.
The problem is that the movie does display it differently which a lot simply do not understand. The whole he wants to return snd fights because of that is plausible but the movie in multiple dcenes shows that then in a very badly written manner.
Could have gone much worse tho. Bringing in all those characters would naturally be a challenge, so the fact that it wasn't a horseshit executing gets points in my book.
Well it’s often more unique and more engaging than saying what everyone else has already said a million times. Besides I praised it, what more do you want from me?
@@FullFatVideos I mean it just seemed like you didn't actually like it, which is fine since I mean I don't consider it the greatest thing ever either. But idk it just seemed like the film pissed you off more than anything. I think to answer your question "what I want" would be, if you actually did like it, tell us what about this film actually saved it from being something you actively dislike? Maybe you did that at the beginning and I forgot about it since it's been a few days since I watched. For example I thought the actual plot was really dumb, like you pointed out. But the character stuff for the three Peters was handled quite well for me so that is what made me actually like it overall. That and Willem Dafoe, of course. Also, personally, I would actually love to have heard your thoughts on the moments everyone is gushing about, mainly because I like hearing different reactions to the same events.
Following the part about it not making sense that Sandman would turn on Peter. In the third act, Electro literally tells him “nobody’s going home” insinuating that he wants to destroy the box and Sandman straight up IGNORES this. Like, the whole reason you’re pissed is because you want to get home to your daughter and yet you’re teaming up with the guy who wants to deny you that right against the 3 guys that are trying to help you get there. I thoroughly enjoyed NWH, but this was one part of the movie that made absolutely no sense
Thought I was crazy to not “LOVE” this movie. It was good, probably Holland’s best outing but still missing any jaw dropping moments. Once we have to sit with everything and we know the twists and turns, there’s not much substance here to enjoy.
One point I just wanted to mention is that because this Spider-Man is a part of a larger universe, there's not always the opportunity to bring everything back down to the small scale. This film, to me at least, seems to be a part of a multi-part story with WandaVision, Loki, Doctor Strange 2, Ant Man 3, and probably some others and the next Avengers film. This is when the MCU is getting into the multiverse, so this is why this film had to happen, rather than going back to the high school story, which I'm sure was the intention for part 3 of this trilogy at the start. And the opportunity to go back to the small-scale has been set up by this film. Spider-Man has played his part in the multiverse story, and now can move on. I don't think there would really be another time to bring in all these old villains and Spider-Men (Spider-Mans?) after this, because by the next solo Spider-Man film, I'm guessing this multiverse story will be wrapped up, and the multiverse will just be another element of the MCU. So yes, I would have liked to see the final part of the high school trilogy too, but they had the chance to bring back all these characters, and to advance Doctor Strange's story towards Multiverse of Madness too, and they took it. I really enjoyed this film. I understand some of your issues with it, but I think the point about wanting to go back to the high school story kind of ignores the fact that this takes place in an interconnected universe with common story thread. Just my opinion, no ill will towards you or anything. Everyone has the right to feel whatever they feel about the media they consume (it's ridiculous that I even have to say that, but that's the internet 😂), but this was one thing I felt just missed the mark completely.
Nothing has changed about the version we saw in SM2 and his arc. That timeline still exists. But now, there's a branch where Ock seemingly returned to his senses beforehand. SM2 Ock hasn't been ruined bc SM2 Ock still exists unchanged.
This is just a lot of misunderstanding of how different things would be structured. MJ and Ned had that box with them that they were supposed to press. They didn't want to without confirming with Peter first so they try to summon him. All of this is explained in the movie. It also shows that and Neeld has magic and sure you could have introduced them multiple ways but again, no one's going to be happy with the entire movie because it would be impossible with all the money in the world to make a coherent movie that somehow meets everyone's expectations. It's not possible.
