Was JAMES MARSTERS Aware of the JOSS WHEDON Toxic Workplace on BUFFY?!?  

What is he then?

@@coops1992 he's American......

Nah, alexis denisof fooled me.

I hear this all the time from actors from england

He fooled me until in one episode he said "poof" and pronounced it like a grannies foot rest thing.

he was good, definitely no Parker though

even after attempting to rape the title character?

Had a friend in college, twenty years ago, that named his ferret Spike. The loner, vampire, trenchcoat, SEX GOD that never got laid was his ENTIRE PERSONALITY!!!!

@@nostoon4332 that scene was low, but after that was great. If we are talking from a stance of the lore of the series, the demon that was Spike willingly locked itself a cage by bringing back the soul of William the human (not that he changed his name back or anything). His personality didn't shift was drastically as Angel, but they make it very clear repeatedly that the vampire isn't the actual person. It's "the thing that killed him" as Giles said about Jesse. So season 7 Spike (and on Angel season 5) is a new character in my eyes. If you disagree, remember that pretty much no one in the fandom talks about Angel and holds him as responsible for torturing Giles or killing Jenny. We know those were the actions of the unrestrained demon Angelus

That scene was horrible but it was explained that Spike was still evil and he didn’t want the audience to forget that, which is why he went to get a soul after.

like the director getting pissed off at you for doing your job🤣

@anne-sophieletourneau-hudo9364 ''A metaphor of just adolescence'', it's strange, when I was a kid watching the show, I never picked up on that. I just thought it was someone who disliked horror films depicting a lady always as the victim who runs away. (And he had like a wicked sense of humor.) But watching the show as an adult, seeing the episode with Buffy Spring-Fling white dress. The whole thing just depicts how high school is like hell, and how you have to face your inner demons, and how you leave this hell behind you and slowly transition into adulthood. It's really cool. I have such a newfound esteem that I cherish and treasure forever.

@@requiemheidireprisal7824I like turtles

But it wasn't the original plot.

@@silkandstones5964 I have a question, so Angel NEVER loses his soul to Darla, he maintains it throughout, but he goes dark. The way he snaps out of that phase is something I still don't get to this day. So he sleeps with Darla, and all of a sudden he's good again? They established back in Buffy's 17th-birthday that he goes evil after sex. But he bounces back after hitting rock bottom somehow by sleeping with Darla? (And they create Connor who is hands down the worst character ever written in all of the Buffy-verse. Man was he annoying.)

Yeah, I mean, Spike had a good redemption arc and Marsten was great at selling that gradual change. It bothers me that it was okay for the show's creator and head writer to be an utter dick to everyone, especially the women in the cast, in real life as a way to blow off his stress, yet it's going too far to show an abusive male character onscreen slowly learning not to be abusive. I think Whedon was really telling on himself there.

That's actually a great analysis!

Agree, VERY classy of him - I think the quote was "I'm not going to TELL them that they didn't" - and that's important, as that's what he would be doing if he contradicted them/someone. Glad to hear his experience was good, or at least not the hell that some of the women went through. Was so sad to learn that about Joss, I used to be such a fan of him. Now I have to separate him from the shows as there was a LOT more in them than just him and I figure by boycotting them I'm boycotting so much more than just Joss.

What is that even supposed to mean?

He is separating his personal experience from objective truth. He is giving space for the folks with bad or good experiences to own their own experiences. It is an insightful and classy way to say he can only speak for himself.

@@rubbercrutch1 truly agree

@@PeterParker-ff7ub It's vain, egocentric Hollywood speak for there is no objective truth. Only feelings and each egos interpretation of them.

Like James said, “he worked it out”

Soulless Spike cannot redeem himself, because he's not capable of remorse and regret. Souled Spike doesn't need redemption, because he's not responsible for wat soulless Spike did. So either way, redemption is off the table.

@@YourCreepyUncle. I don't completely agree. I take a more nuanced view. I always found it interesting that Angel was ensouled as a result of a curse enacted on him as punishment. Spike was ensouled at his own request. So, even soulless Spike was aware that he lacked something important and took affirmative steps to acquire the soul he was missing. Granted, soulless Spike's reasons for getting his soul back were selfish, but the act stands on its own and redeemed him by giving his soul back, although soulless Spike would never think he needed to be redeemed. Souled Spike suffered an agony of guilt, but his sacrifice in "Chosen" was the act that redeemed him in his own mind.

@@frutrace What you said didn't necessarily dismiss the idea that redemption is off the table. His reasons were selfish, like you said. The souled version's guilt is also somewhat misplaced. The soul in the show isn't just the desire to feel empathy, but the ability to feel it. That makes a huge difference.

@@mikesannitti6042 I have always wondered at the proper assignment of guilt for ensouled vampires on Buffy. The mythology says when you are turned, you die, your soul goes on to wherever souls go, and a demon inhabits your body with all your memories. It is literally a different entity that assumes your identity, but with a complete lack of conscience and an inborn malice to cause as much suffering for humanity as possible. So what does it mean when the vampire gets ensouled? Is it conjured from thin air? Is the soul of the original person ripped from it's eternal rest and returned? Is the vampire just given a conscience and the veil ripped from it's eyes so that it fully comprehends the evil it has done? The answer to this question matters. If it's the first or the last, then yes Spike & Angel are fully responsible for all the evil they did. Perhaps a measure of grace could be extended to them for being literally incapable of feeling guilt & remorse, as one might do with a psychopath should we ever find a cure for psychopathy. But Spike & Angel are still the entities who did those things while wearing the stolen flesh of another being. But if it's the second, then no. How can a person be morally responsible for the evil done by another being who stole their identity? They are the victim, not the perpetrator. And yet, cruelly, they still have the memory of having done all these evil things. Alas, as far as I can tell, the show's answer to this question is murky. Angel's journey tries to have it both ways. On the one hand, he takes responsibility for all the evil he has done and works to atone for it with the hope that one day he will earn his reward and regain his humanity. This suggests that the vampire and the soul are a single being. And yet he speaks of his darkness like a demon inside himself, as if it were a separate being he is constantly fighting to keep under control rather than acknowledging that the demon *is* him. Angelus is similarly murky. Whenever Angel temporarily loses his soul, Angelus surfaces and the show characterizes it as him being unshackled from the chains of morality and remorse, utterly disgusted by the "debasement" he was forced to endure. This suggests that Angel & Angelus are the same entity, And yet the show treats Angel & Angelus as two separate entities, as does the entire Scooby gang. With the exception of Xander whose opinion of Angel as culpable for all the evil he has done is constantly depicted as wrong and prejudiced, fueled by jealousy. So anyway, that's a long winded way to say the Buffyverse tried to have it's cake and eat it too. I think the writers went with whatever would ratchet up the drama and the angst in the moment, but it came at the cost of weakening the vampire's power to address the themes of guilt and responsibility that were so prevalent thought-out the show's run.

The charisma that oozes off of Spike and makes his interactions with other characters so much more meaningful. Like Buffy's Mum and Dawn.

He was tge Wylie Coyote of the show.

He wasn't evil . But frustrated evil . Evil is evil . Just like I could be late but still good.

@@SoulJAHJustICE yeah... but Spike _eventually_ actually became good.

@Stephen Samuel that WOULD be called redemption . You and I , are simply on the subject of ... evil . So Spike wasn't evil ... he was simply " frustrated evil " ? What you meant to type was people don't care for him for the fact that he's evil , or was , but for the fact he has REDEEMABLE qualities. Same as any anti - hero lest they be a straight up villain. Evil is evil . Good is good . Neither is ever perfect , only what they are and in that , they can become the upmost representation of said energy ... i.e. good or bad.

@@SoulJAHJustICE He started out as excellent comic relief. As he stayed, because of his popularity, they eventually needed a redemption arc to justify not killing him off.

This 💯! People can have varying experiences with people. Abusers especially aren’t abusive to everyone. It’s part of their game

Because he had ANY bad experience like MANY of them. Please ask the writers. PLEASE. They will "validate" and other things because they are afraid of bullies like almost everyone on this thread (who cancel people WITHOUT knowing the facts) but they KNOW who were the divas.

He's not allowed to. If he were to say yeah, Joss was ridiculously intense but those other people were giant pussies that cried anytime someone yelled at them, he would be vilified and cancelled. That's the society that we now live in.

@@alexh8613 okay dude.

Josh Whedon was abusive towards him, but of course he wasn't a pregnant woman, so yes his experience is going to be different. However, in any other industry, a boss grabbing somebody, shoving that person against the wall whilst berating them would be completely unacceptable.

ikr? Wasnt' that so cool? I wish that could happen to more of my fav characters on other shows.

​@@lessismore8533 jessy was meant to die in season 1 of breaking bad

@@Generalindifference Klaus Mikaelson was meant to die in TVD

​@@garytaylor8616 Klaus was meant to die?! No fricking way. I rate the originals massively over tvd. Klaus is EVERYTHING! and this is why I'm single 😂😂

The FINALE was epic... Spike made me cry with his final line of the series. The visuals too, it was great. 😭

As much as I agree with you there is one thing Spike does that I really struggled with and that's the scene that was almost a r@pe. It was way too obvious what was happening and yeah it triggered me more than I'd like. Spike trying to bite Willow that time was just a rip off the old ED line...we can try again later if you'd like. "This doesn't happen with me"

@@michellemelville8979 That "ED line" was so hilarious! I still remember how I was not expecting it and I doubled up laughing.

​@@amattes1960same. But I knew exactly what it was a piss-take of.

@@michellemelville8979 I think that was to drive in the point that Spike, for all his character development and love for Buffy he was inherently a broken man. Both us the viewers and him, the character, getting that final point driven through was what also made him realise that he had to finally come to terms with that and him fighting to get a soul can be seen as a broken and out of control man finally going to therapy and slowly starting to get his act togheter. But yeah, i do get the struggle with that scene, it is in no way good...

Oh god, no it wasn't. It got better, and the character was great, but the accent was awful.

Wife and I always laugh at the scene of spike, "pretending" to have an American accent... "oh I'm a friend of Xanders here"

It was crap in the earlier series'.

Yeah it was a bit confusing at first. Juliet Landau sounded really fake, so it made me question Spike too. I thought he was Canadian. But when Drusilla was gone his British accent seemed more convincing, and I just assumed it would be silly to employ an American to play a British person when you could get a British person like Anthony Head. Of course, I never knew he was only intended to be in a few episodes of one season.

@@garrick3727 I do agree with you about Drucilla sounding fake. Buffy also highlights to American audiences the cockney dialect isn't the only type of English accent! Thanks Giles and Ethan Rayne for your received pronounciation!

I wish Sunday was at least made a main villain as well. It would have been more interestinf than Adam.

Of all of the cast members that with a little CGI, could still get away with playing an ageless vampire James as Spike would probably be the one. His appearance has barely changed over 2 decades! And hell he was good! But I still think that as a metaphor he could have been kept in that adolescent overcoming the problems of being an adolescent, because who hasn't had a teenage crush on someone charismatic and a bad boy?

Spike staying on the show beyond Season 2 and Season 3 wasn't the problem. But the push to make him a romantic lead or anti-hero didn't work. Whedon should have written him more like Crowley on Supernatural who helps the heroes for his own selfish reasons and thus a weird kind of frenemy dynamic can grow from the fact while he was often the big bad the heroes are just as likely to need to team up with him when an even worse threat emerges

He's awesome nararating The Dresden Files books.

I recently rewatched both Buffy and Angel series and the best character was Spike for sure.

I loved without a trace!!!! Cool story :)

Hey that show was awesone. Real punch in the face with nostalgia.

I Loved that show.

Isnt it weird they called it "Without a Trace" when all they did was find traces and follow them?

That was a great show, good work

You definitely watched a different show

He take some decisions, but he was working mostly in Angel and Firefly.

Season 3 onwards spike >>>> season 2 spike. There's a reason the "big bad" was angelus. They took a gamble. We're all IMMENSELY happy it paid off, -1 scene in season 6 that i prefer to repress

Best character development ever!!!!

I loved spikes character so glad they kept him around!!!

He is also the voice of Harry Desden in the audiobooks :p

I bet he extremely regrets DragonBall evolution

He reads for the Dresden Files audiobooks by Jim Butcher. He’s fantastic in them but you get used to his normal speaking voice pretty quickly

He's not British!!!!

When he played Brainiac later on Smallville I said to my brother "Spike"s American accent isn't very good." Later on I found out dude was from texas and felt like a dummy

@@jagmaida5074 Ahaha lol. That’s great! Don’t feel bad though. His British accent is very good, and the first time I heard him talk without it, I thought his American accent was the fake one. Not because I thought it was bad though, I had just heard him talk with the British accent for so long. I’m talking multiple seasons of Buffy and a few of Angel.

@@jedprice15 Kind of the point. Spike is a one episode bad guy from The Bill.

That might have been due to the fact that he was older than most of the other cast members.

I feel like Spike is a great representation of integrating one's shadow rather than pretending it's not there anymore.

100% He also was a poet and had a lot of soul as person with and without his own soul.

This. Spot on. Spike always knew exactly who he was and didn't hide or run from it. Even if who he was, was an evil sadistic bastard, he embraced that.

@@ElaAusDemTal for real! I had no idea he was that much older, and he STILL looks amazing!

Riley was soooo 😴😴😴😴😴😴

Riley was ok, until he wasn't. Did he take drugs? I don't remember....

@@BarrySlisk The Initiative drugged all of the soldiers to make them stronger and eventually caused Riley some health problems. There was also the relationship problems he and Buffy had during season 5.

I liked Riley. I dont understand the hatred. He was actually good for Buffy. But she was the slayer and shut him out. Causing him to spiral. I've done the bad boy thing. Over it. Give me a boring good Ole boy like Riley any day.

@@BarrySlisk He did, umm.. getting bitten by vampire prostitutes... which was as close as the network could get to him doing drugs without him actually doing drugs. Bad storyline for a worse character.

I didn't know that was a thing. That's awesome.

Wow I had no idea! I really like the show Dresden Files, so I’m definitely going to check out these with Marsters

RIGHT???

My absolute favorite audible book (series). I’ve listened to it so many times!! ♥️

I think he did finally realize that. Eventually he accepted his reality and said “well, I’m stuck with this. So how can I use it?” And look at what he was able to do with season 6. Sometimes geniuses are so focused on what they want that they don’t look around and see the other possibilities. Normally I hate when a network interferes with a show, but they were right on the money with that one

I really felt as though the end of season 5 was the perfect ending for all the characters. Spike had become somewhat good without a soul, which made his story much more compelling than Angels

Angel is such a shit character. Was good when they finally got rid of him. Spike is a better version, definitely

@@darkydoom agreed! I almost quit watching because I was so sick of the insipid Angel story line. The best part of the graduation was watching him disappear.

@@darkydoom could not stand the buffy angel arc, he was so corny to me it was kinda cringe to watch 😭

true, he fit naturally in there since Angel was more adult material

I hated the Buffy/Spike romance, but not because of the hero-falling-for-the-villain angle, although I wasn’t crazy about that aspect either. But I hated the Buffy/Spike thing because it completely changed her character. For lack of a better word, she became a slut, and that was entirely off-putting. I get that the plot-point was that she came back from Hell lacking a soul and feeling completely empty inside, but her constantly having sex with Spike made it like every single other teen CW show. And I can’t stand those shows.

I live on Hollywood North. Bullshit liberal ideas of what you see in america aside bleeding hearts n shit. Canadians are a diffrent mix of conservatives and liberals then you. With that in mind. All I hear about all of Hollywood is idiot major actors and directors. Talking insane 1% about how much money they make. I know tons and tons of people in all trades. In the movie industry up here who think the old days were sick. Smallville included these guys mean well with out question

Just fucking sick. Like you can't fucking look actors in the eye as extras or you're fired

I know set designers extras fuck I know chick's who did horror deaths. Fx guys set design They all say the same shit as these boys

Yoda

Yall went to bone town

@@duraynoodle : JC mate. That's some Junior High craic, right there.

Lex and Spike..2 amazing characters!

And James Marsters was on Smallville too!

Best villain I. History huh? You need to either leave your cave more, or a lot less. Either way, you are sadly wrong.

James was also Brainiac in Smallville. He is also the narrator to the NY TIMES best selling author Jim Butcher Harry Dresden urban fantasy books

heard this in his british accent lol 😆

Yes! You said it perfectly 💯

Shame that's not his name eh?

@@mydogeatspuke Lol you’re right.

And bring humble, empathetic, and intelligent makes you even more beautiful ;)

he really mastered that role, god tier

I know right!

No

Which, as we’ve seen with the Joss Whedon case especially, is not common in Hollywood anymore.

@@spencerwillock You try to be fair minded,the cancel culture mob comes for you.Sadly,thats why many celebs just throw their colleagues under the bus.James masters is courageous.

@@spencerwillock Oh, they're just shitting on Whedon at the moment because he's no longer directing mega-successful Marvel sequels.

James is lovely. When I met him he was so fucking sweet I almost threw up.

@@girlywench I'm sure he felt the same way...

I imagine a lot of actors and actresses get used to walking on eggshells because they don't want to risk pissing off the wrong person and ruining their career.

Some people just aren't pussies.

@@theflyingninja1 And those people are called "out of work actors". You blub, you get shunned,your career dies.

Um that's most places people work if you don't get lucky. Lol 😂 At least an actor working for someone who is successful gives them a good chance of also being successful. Vs. most people that work for managers at Walmart, clothing stores, Valets, and other service oriented jobs and even IT jobs where many times the people in charge are abusive on some level. HR rarely does anything unless you're a minority. You have to "get used to it" or you can lose your job and be on the street. At least in California. Maybe it's a California thing?? Lol

@arielzeppelin zeppelin Your first sentence is spot on and exactly the point I was looking for. Mature adults have to make mature decisions about their work environments-namely, what they’re willing to put up with versus what their needs are versus other work possibilities.

Pathetic

Ikr😢

There’s a lot of them just not a lot of A list ones, and considering UK television isn’t very popular in the states while American television is popular in the UK it makes sense.

It's pretty obvious because his accent was unnatural and doesn't sound like the way anyone speaks. He fooled idiots maybe

Alexis Denisof is pretty good too. See also Sharpe.

Anger, control… a bunch of stuff. There is a possibility of a bit of the George Lucas effect too, where nobody challenged him and he basically got away with whatever.

the event being described here happened over twenty years ago, so bear that in mind when commenting on it.

@@sirmoonslosthismind nah he got fired from something recently for the same types of things

Well, when one's Mentor is Rossanne Barr, having seen how she handled things and got away with them at least in the Nineties, I can see how Joss Whedon would use those similar type of tactics in his own shows.

@@WSK9002 i forgot he worked on Roseanne. Too bad John Goodman couldn't have been his mentor

Just two!? Explain the simpleton look you have for a character that tried to rap a girl but hey, great abs and "sympathetic" story line huh. Y'all are fuqin sick and missed the point of the relationship. He was toxic, period. It's not that deep

@Mary Sue Dating Agency what do you mean it's cut from other videos? It's part of a conversation on a recent podcast episode

Who did he stab in the back? And are you referring to the actor or character? And to the original comment- FULLY AGREE!

@Mary Sue Dating Agency Here we are talking about actor James Marsters and his work and not about the series and its director.

He's a good actor, yes, and I continue to enjoy his work, but he was not so charming when I met him. This was right after Buffy ended and he was about to be on Angel, at DragonCon in Atlanta. During both the autograph signing as well as the Q&A panel with his band, he just seemed annoyed to be there. Folks got short, snippy responses and even a few eyerolls. I'm going to give him the good grace of assuming that I had the misfortune of encountering him as he was having a bad day. It happens. I will say that at least my experience with everyone else there was lovely, and it's rare that I have a bad experience with a celebrity at one of those things.

No.

James marsters also voices "the Dresden files" book series on audible and he does a more than fantastic job!

He does very well in not answering the questions about if he saw anything on set

I lived in New Orleans for a long time and in my line of work meetings of famous people. I agree with you totally!! Brad Paisley was the most nice, respectful and absolutely the coolest I met out of 100s of famous people. He came to my gym that I ran and worked out when he opened for George strait and nobody even recognized him but me because I was at his concert video before. My girlfriend was at that concert that night and still there with George strait at the end and he calls her on her cell phone saying he wish he could have met her because I was a nice guy and he wanted to do something cool for me since I let him work out for free!! She did not answer because she was at the concert and did not hear the voicemail until about 30 minutes later. When I tell you that made that girls year I am not exaggerating for one second. He did it just be a nice guy and it worked let's just say it made me more browning points than you could ever imagine!! He was nice enough to take pictures with me and my crew and leave me probably $2,000 worth of signed t-shirts and CDs and I didn't even ask! He asked me to begin with how I knew what he looked like and why I wasn't at the concert and I said my girlfriend is there with her other boyfriend! He laughs sits down at my desk and says I got to hear the story so I told him! One of the coolest nicest guys I think you'd ever have the possibility of meeting cuz he took the time out of his night to make my millennium and to make a girl he didn't even know smile! The only other celebrity I have that I seen something to even close to that was Faith Hill but I was not up on personal with her. And her concert there was a girl there was 8 years old and dying from cancer. If they'll stop the concert in the middle of a song and made sure that girl got to come back and talk to her. It was and her last wish from the Make-A-Wish foundation to go to her concert!! When I saw her do that and meaning what she was doing I did not care if they canceled the concert as long as that little girl got to go see Faith Hill! On the next end I met rock stars Playboy models pornstars movie stars and all kinds of crazy stuff and most of them are just not even worth a bullet if you want to be honest. But a lot of the ones a lot of people are down on were nice as hell. I work in strip clubs and security for over 20 years. My job at one of them was to look over and watch out for the porn stars that were touring! You think a lot of those would be really nasty people but I'm telling you not one of them was mean to me at all. They treated me more than well a few of them if you know what I mean and always tell me well and we're more polite than your average person by far!! They might not be that way to everybody because I'm a 250 lb bodybuilder with blonde hair and blue eyes so yeah I probably got treated a little nicer than most but I did not expect anybody in that profession to be as courteous as they all were even the guys that came through with the girls! I even got body checked One Time by Henry Winkler the fonz!! I couldn't believe how short he was and he ran into me and had the nerve to give me a dirty look but it was Mardi gras. I didn't see who it was initially and I was ready to yell at somebody for not looking where they were going and I shut my mouth because I was surprised to see it with him!! He kind of walked off after giving me it already looked because well he was so small it was like getting a brick wall when he ran into me LOL. My girlfriend at the time did not even really believe me because it was Mardi gras and you couldn't see through the crowd to show her!! I always wanted to meet the cast of fluffy's vampire Slayer and I met a few of them in parties in Louisiana especially at the ones that Anne Rice through but I never got to meet James or Buffy herself! Out of all of them the biggest dick I met was the lead singer of motley Crue. For some reason he didn't think he had to pay for drinks and he was wrong. It was past the year 2000 and I wasn't a starry eyed teenage girl. I don't know why the hell he thought he was going to drink for free in a club like mine when nobody there even recognized him!! Well I did but I used to be in metalhead in the 80s in the '90s. When I wish I would have met was another one in Buffy which was charisma Carpenter!! Now that will make my day at the time! I used to run strip clubs down there and the girl I ended up being with was the most famous one down there and she kind of looked like charisma Carpenter but honestly hotter but I bet your Christmas Carpenter was 10 times nicer! Plus she still looks good and my ex got fat LOL. Serves her right to see the least. She got famous because she was the most famous dancer down there or when we were there and it really just made her into a famous whore the way she handled it she wasn't here as cool as she thought she was! One thing I always was curious about though is I used to be when I was down there at competitive 250 lb blonde hair blue eye Bodybuilder!!! Honestly a good looking guy and I wonder if they would have all been so nice to me if I was just a normal looking guy back then? I used to be a fat kid so I'm not one of those arrogant bodybuilder types that everybody hates. I can stereotype like that until you know me though. I wonder if all those Stars would have been half as nice to me if I looked normal! I can guarantee you Brad Paisley still would have.

Surely you mean to say that he comes across as nice and cool, or that he seems to be nice and cool. You cannot possibly know or say that he is in fact those things by watching a brief interview.

Little did he know he was the demons he would write about

Good intentions pave the road to hell

This comment made me pine for a time when horrible people were good writers. Now, horrible people are horrible writers and fans are demeaned and name-called if we don't praise their every word.

@@jimjam51075 I think that's a radical interpretation of the context.

@@voldlifilm Not really. I can point to the Lucasfilm story group and the current Moses Ingram controversy they have capitalized upon/manufactured to cover their lack of talent. The writers of Discovery kicked Walter Mosely (a black man) off the staff for using a racist term in context. They've used the same excuse to demean critics of S.M. Green's character as being unlikable and poorly written. And fans of both franchises are vilified (lumped in with the very few *real* racist ones) for any and all criticism of the narrative quality.

It is good they came out but what is disturbing as always is people wait years to say something. Collectively if they would have done this when it happened, that would have sent a huge message. Change can and will never happen as long as people sit back years silent and then come out years later to pile on. Maybe Joss would have got minor help and he wouldn't have got outrageously bad it this is true. But the same thing happens time and time again people refuse to say something and come together in that moment which would have made the difference. Joss is now a multi millionaire and will not be punished if this is true. So what was the point of this? Just to ride some hash tag and say me too and I stand with you.

yea but half of them say they did not see anythign, spike talk about one bad time and that it, giles said he did nto see anything.

@@az21bob666 yeah technically sarah didnt say anything or alyson..seth ..david..amy ..eliza etc..they support charisma but they didn't say anything about joss

I think one thing that gets lost is that Buffy was his first show. So when Charisma Carpenter got pregnant and suddenly... surprise! Costume budget goes up and you have to use body doubles or rethink entire scenes. All that in an episodic show where everything has to be carefully planned out. It is also interesting how actor chemistry factors in. Another example is Arya and The Hound in Game of Thrones. In the book, the only reason Sandor doesn't rape her is because he's trying to turn her in to a Stark supporter to join their side. It's on his mind and very much not beneath him because he's a horrible person throughout. Arya only takes him off her "list" due to Stockholm Syndrome. So it makes complete sense when he appears to be mortally wounded that she would not offer him any kind of mercy. In the show the actors had great chemistry and people saw a surrogate father/daughter relationship. So the story beat where she leaves him to die seemingly comes out of nowhere.

@@az21bob666 A lot said they didn't see anything specific, but that they completely believe Charisma, and they talk about how with Michelle Tracktenburg (spelling bad), who played Dawn, there was some incident and then an on-set rule that they wouldn't let her be with Joss alone. I think just because his intensity that Spike especially talked about would be a lot for Michelle, considering she was just a kid at the time.

Same, he was the nicest guy ever

As the guy said he set his standards extremely high and applied those most to himself. If you go into a job where you are expecting to be paid millions you should expect to have extremely high standards demanded. If you aren't willing to have that level of commitment then community theatre is there, but taking the millions over the years and then once your career is gone to jump on a bandwagon to try to get some publicity is trashy

So believe the ones that says he's guilty and don't believe the ones that said they saw nothing.

@@zaftra Umm, those two aren't mutually incompatible? It's entirely possible for someone to be abused while others don't notice.

@@irrevenant3 I think you both are missing that he's accused of being toxic for being aggressive and screaming at the actors like described here in the video

@@v4vun I'm not clear why you think I'm missing that. Are you saying that Joss screaming at James means there can't be anyone who didn't notice?

I'm English, and I thought he was English all this time! His accent was spot on!

Right?

I thought his accent was decent but I knew he was American when he first appeared because of an interview. The one that got me was Alexis Denisoff and I was convinced he was British. I saw him later in a UK show called Bugs, where he had an American accent and thought he was putting it on. Turns out that was his real voice.

Damn agreed! Damon over Stefan. Spike over Angel.

Do you honestly think anyone except you cares about what you have to say?

Spike tried to rape Buffy and while his character was fun to watch, I never shipped him with Buffy. Damon is the epitome of mediocre white male privilege, he’s nowhere as near interesting. 😒

Amen! All the way. As a teen though I did feel torn between Angel and Spike. The sad thing is I was with an older emotionally abusive guy who Angel reminded me of.....so Buffy romanticized that for me in a bad way. Buffy respected herself more with pushing away Spike but then of course went through her weird dark period.....but Spike seemed to always be more committed to her also in the end. Angel's reasons to leave were also pathetic IMO. Wonderful show. I still watch an episode or two from time to time. But I do think teens shouldn't be watching that type of show without someone more mature and responsible there to talk then through it all. Especially if they are already a "troubled" teen. Lol

@@pisceswaterfaerie82 I don't get why anyone likes Stefan. At all. His personality was meh imo if not downright creepy (less creepy as a ripper lmao) and he uggo. Haha I feel bad saying it but that's how I feel. Damon is.....*muah* 💋 🤌

@@InfinitePublics I'm rewatching Buffy & Angel right now (following along w/ Alleybox, who's watching for the first time). And I'm warming to Angel more and more. I used to dislike him, but now I just feel like he had a different function. Angel was the First Boyfriend type of experience, and embodied that very well. Then we got some nyance and complications in that portrayal, and especially in Angel his "dark and brooding" persona is shown to be mostly just a front. Just like most people, he has is ups and downs, stuff he's good at and stuff - like socializing - he's pretty bad at and tries to cover up. Angel didn't have quite as interesting an arc as Spike, but I feel like his arc, too, was "worth it". Also, I'm kind of happy Buffy ends up boyfriendless at the end of the show(s). She doesn't need a man to be complete or her own person. If she finds someone that's good for her and works out, that's great. But being in a relationship isn't the most important thing in the world. It's completely possible to have a fulfilling life and never having a partner or a family. I feel like some people attach too much significance on romantic relationships.

Spike's arc was much more complicated than people accept. Spike, whilst soulless, managed to do good things for the right reasons, he displayed loyalty and love in a way no other vampire did. But he was still soulless, so there were things he'd do that people judged him for that they didn't judge Drucilla or Angel for. Even though he was better than both of them, still capable of good, even without a soul.

@@InfinitePublics I completely agree with you on both comments you made. Spike is a very complex character canon wise, he is the bad guy for the beginning of his existence. But he always had more of a heart and motivation than Angel ever did. Like Angel became obsessed with and "became a good person" for a 15 year old (he originally sees Buffy before she gets to Sunnydale and in that scene from context clues I believe she's 15) he treats her like a child through a lot of their interactions and relationship; despite the fact he also tries to get her to do a lot of difficult things and to make really harsh decisions. He isn't healthy for Buffy at all and he sets the view of a lot of the characters and how they see Vampires and demons in general. He sets characters unwillingness to see that Spike could at all be doing good for Buffy, and even Dawn's, sake just because he cares about them. Because Xander (for a good example) has seen what Angel is willing to do and why, along with who he is, the monster he is without his soul. Angel/Angelus is the template cookie cutter version of "the best and worst" a vampire could possibly be. Even though there are much better examples of both. It causes Xander to be unwilling to see any demon as good especially Spike without a soul. Thus ruining any chances with Anya and any connection with other demons both good and bad. And yet by the end of the series even with the soul Xander and a lot of the other characters are too hardend and angry to accept Spike could ever change even though they themselves (like Willow) get a second chance, just because they are human. Spike set the stage for a chance in the show to prove that even if you're human you're not on a pedestal over all demons and other beings just because you're human and have a soul. It could have dug deep into other dimensions and beings and proven than change is both possible and inevitable when you live for a very long time like Buffy seems to be in for as a Slayer or Spike or hell even Anya. That you can be better than others of your species. How they did Anya's character always bugged me because she's this millenium old "was human then a demon and back again" who evolves into a good person and cares for people. But by the end they just kick her out of the show and tie it down as "she was only in it for Xander and now she's back as a jealous demon" coulda been a lot more to that but whatever. The show could have evolved in a lot of ways to show who you are depends entirely on who you want to be in the end. Like with Dawn, she's not entirely human, she's a key and yet look at how she's changed while BEING a human AND being treated like one. Could have definitely kept with the theme of growing up Yaknow?

If Buffy was about growing up, then Angel was about adulthood

I agree with the general consensus that James playing Spike as he did was one of the best casting moves ever. He bought that quick thinking dry wit to the show every time (especially as the writing was so funny- a dramedy although that term hadn't been an official genre back then, and bought a depth to the character. In one way he WAS OR BECAME the epitome of a character overcoming evil, because I do believe he actually did love Buffy. The attempted assault after they became physically together was a real turning point both plot and character wise. Plot-in that when he left after that and the anger, suggested a revenge / evil plot so when he went to reclaim his soul to be worthy of her not just for the sex but the wanting to be a better person for her in every way was such a beautiful surprise and as the one to sacrifice himself at the end and acceptance hit me hard anyway. And, it was one of a handful of shows that defined the time it was written in. It was a favourite show of mine and I was obsessed with it. And let's just say it-damn he was sexy as hell!

And that's showbiz, kid.👍🏾

Oh definitely. Theater actors have to deal this often apparently.

@@lex_rodriguez I did some tech work for a college production (while a student). And it wasn’t uncommon for those students and lectures to have arguments and randomly throw out breaks just to calm everyone down. This even went on to the back stage people.

Oh wow, I thought it was just my university's theatre department that was stressful. My bad.

@@QuietlyCurious I’ll never forgot - an actor demanding no one looks at them while they sing I rehearsals -another demanding their dress be made shorter repeatedly to the costume department until 3 days before the show when they decide it’s now too short -a lead getting pissed off because the dress rehearsal crowd was enjoying the supporting character more than the lead. -arguments over who got the leading roles -constant breaks for smokers I only worked with them for 2 weeks…..

He never went to trought hell to make himself better for buffy After he tried to rape her he went through hell to become how he was because he wanted to kill her,the demon just screwed him over and said he never could complete the trial he needs,and then gave him his soul instead)

I 100% thought he slipped into Dresden talking about wizards! (sometimes not so) Stubtle & quick to anger!

Marsters has also narrated/read the majority of the Harry Dresden novels, fwiw.

I think he is the worst narrator ever - i can't even get through the books. He is suppose to get better but I tapped out after 3

Spike's the Vegeta and Angel's the Piccolo.

Twilight

@@lerenard5110 🤣 better than my reply was gonna be

Hm. Have you heard of a show called Breaking Bad xD

Yeah but Breaking Bad was written specifically about his character development.

I think Wesley’s character development was equal to Spike’s. Both superb actors. Both Americans playing Brits that were utterly convincing! 😊

You've obviously never seen "Babylon 5" and its raft of characters taking Shakespearean twists and turns in their character developments.

Yes I have to say the top 4 characters with the most character development were spike,Wesley and Cordelia and faith.

I think that he is a unique vampire in that of all the vampires, he somehow retained some of his humanity (maybe because he willingly became a vampire when Druscilla sired him). In the series two episode where they fought that demon that could destroy humanity the demon even said he could sense some humanity in Spike. Which is why he could love Druscilla, have taste (he liked buffalo wings and those onion things) and always hung around the scoobies and had genuine affection for Buffys mom and a big brother attitude toDawnn, not to mention he loved watching Passions

I wouldn’t say he couldn’t stop helping them at first it was just what benefited spike and then spike also loved fighting so it just all worked out tbh

Bit late but you’re forgetting that vampires aren’t true demons and are seen as disgusting mutants in the eyes of real demons because they do retain shreds of their humanity. The Blue demon who got blown up with a bazooka explains this and shows that vampires do retain humanity because he could use his powers on vamps and kill them, which is only possible if they had humanity left in them.

I think what is closer to the truth is that he wanted to tell a moral story where good wins definitively, but people got tempted by the glam and confidence(because that's how evil persists) and the result is that he had to find compromises where good is on top even though evil persists, much like how reality actually works, and the result is that it winds up being a much more relatable story overall, because he's still struggling to have good ultimately succeed.

@@GreyAcumen I tend to think more that relatability is in the eye of the beholder. I think Whedon successfully told his story where good triumphed over evil, but I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "definitively". Good ultimately wins, but it does not always win, and especially not without sacrifice. Stories where good and evil are easily identified, are morally simple, and generally for children. That is not to say that adults can not also enjoy morally simplistic stories. Most comic books are excellent examples of this. Fun for all ages. But Buffy was a show for teenagers and adults, and that audience tends to demand a little more moral complexity. And I believe that they demand that moral complexity as it more accurately reflects the good and evil that exists in us all, thus, generally making morally complex stories more relatable to the average adult

Too often producers and writers underestimate their audience and try to make every plot a simple morality story, where good and evil are clearly defined, and good ultimately triumphs. One thing Game of Thrones taught us is that audiences understand that life is actually more complicated than that and that we prefer more nuanced characters.

Considering the time period of when his character was saved from the cutting room floor I'd say the reasoning had little to do with depth, at the time, but I do agree we got a story with much more depth by his continued inclusion in the overall series.

I mean, that's what you got because that's what Joss created. He was telling deep and complex stories from the very start tho. I think Marsden's high audience rating had less to do with fans wanting different storytelling, and more to do with the charming (thanks to Marsden and Landau) Billy Idol/Sid & Nancy thing. The studio made their demand, Joss made it work. "Lie to Me" was made during this time period and Angel was already a thing, so...I kinda think Marsden is being a tad disingenuous about the kind of stories Joss was writing at this time. He was already starting to touch on the attraction to evil. After all, with Spike, good did in fact ultimately triumph and Buffy ultimately never deviated from that motif. Buffy ain't Breaking Bad, ya know?

oh wow :O

Why is it so often the people who talk about justice and equality and the power of friendship etc whom are the worst?

What the f-? That's literally how it's recommended to people to start out in the business. Sheesh.

@@andredunhos4097 Because they are virtue signaling, i.e. signalling the virtuous they are to the world in an attempt to hide the fact that they are actually horrible people.

@@andredunhos4097 I have an even better question: why everyone was so supportive (including actors) of Joss Whedon before all of this exploded? You rarely hear anything bad about Joss (I didn't even know there were issues on Buffy set until recently) and then bang, everyone is against him.

above all he was honest. He called people out on their BS and shook thinks up.

@@Hexmark - exactly, one of the many reasons I loved his character. He spoke his mind and if people didn't like it, well tough - brilliant x

My favorite scenes with him are.... Him & Joyce having a conversation!! "You came at me with an axe telling me to stay away from my daughter!!" Or when he would describe when Dru went on her own "little trip" & say crazy things. He always added to the story so much!!

@@gaillynn1280 - exactly, he was so funny, and also very blunt, but that scene when he said that to Joyce - I cried laughing x

Yeah but now everyone in Hollywood is using that "Everyone's had a different experience..." phrase. It's lost it's impact.

@@travis8850 True, I get it though. A lot are trying to push back a little against cancel culture, especially when no serious crimes have been committed, but they don't want to become targets of the mob themselves. It's a ridiculous situation.

The way they portrayed Spike worked because of James' charisma. Normally, he'd feel like an underwhelming loser but James managed to own almost all his scenes with other characters

Vampire diaries had Damon and Klaus which I feel was inspired by Spike

Yup. I remember being so confused because Spike was the bad guy but… I liked him. His charisma, his humor and eventually depth. I always felt like Angelus should have been more Spikish. By that I mean… a little more edge. You’re a Vampire centuries old. There should be a level of cynicism and an iron shell to go along with the high levels of brooding. What the Spike character taught me at a young age watching his arc is that everyone has a back story. It also taught me, over time, that while everyone may have a reason for the messed up things that they do, it still doesn’t mean that it’s right and it doesn’t guarantee you the chance for redemption. (Even though Spike got his chance). Whedon may have hated him but people loved Spike for a reason. I think he was the bad ass that a lot of us wanted to be… without all the blood and bitey bitey of course.

@@GameOn71213 None of them were as ruthless and as passionate as Spike. They were more like, fangirl baits in comparison

Spike was designed to be a villain ... Whedon very very clearly didn't intend for the character to stay around beyond Season 2/Season 3 never mind until the end of the both Buffy/Angel

OMG Dru was the scariest out of all of them. I loved her!

@@BloodMoon375 Me too!!

I absolutely hated Dru. I couldn never take her serious. Her character was annoying. Glad she left the show. The actress did a great job but I just didn't like her character.

I agree with you. I loved the Spuffy story ARC but honestly I don't think 2 characters from this series or spin offs had more raw animalistic heat than Spike and Druscilla. The 2 actors have such crazy chemistry it's amazing to watch.

Aside from the main character Buffy , I would say Willow and spike were the best and faith should be mentioned in the conversation..

Buffy is the best character on BUFFY the Vampire Slayer.

Anya was the best. She was hysterical.

@@Beelzybud Not even close! Anya and Dawn were the worst and most annoying characters on the show..

I think I liked Zander the best but never really thought about it.

Even if Joss Whedon is an egomaniac, so what?

Surely it was as much Whedon’s fault that Spike was popular…weird that he blamed the actor when he decided what the actor did and said..

@@justicedemocrat9357 Because if you're the creator of a TV show, you can't be an egomaniac. You can be strict and firm when needed.

Of course its not the first time Buffy was handed over to someone else who ruined it.

Angry egomaniac? In the film and television industry? No way... lol

Agreed. As James says, here, it's your football, giving Joss that opportunity to move the goal posts made a character that grew and grew. We loved Spike all through out both series, because of this. I don't know any other actor that could've done it though.