As a former Christian turned atheist I am still interested the sociology of religion, how religions influence and are influenced by societies. I appreciate the objective and thoughtful tone of this video and the respect shown to different views. One of my many problems with CN is that I do not see a respect for pluralism within it. I see a lot of intolerance and authoritarian practices actually. The rise of this group is deeply concerning to me. Though an atheist I _do_ believe in freedom of religion and am a big fan of live and let live.
So, do you prefer that your worldview be the basis for the nationalistic identity of the country and everyone else with different worldviews acknowledges your worldview as supreme?
@@signposts6189 If I believe in freedom of religion and live and let live then does it not follow that I would not favor having any particular worldview (including my own) imposed on those who do not share it? It seems to go without saying to me anyway. So, to directly answer your first question, no I would not prefer that.
Two of the many reasons CN is wrong or bad: It goes against Biblical principles John 18:36, Matthew 22:21, Mark12:17, 2 chronicles 20:15, etc. God gives everyone the freeway to choose to serve him or not so making his principles a prerequisite to becoming an American is taking that freeway away. The Second reason is CN makes sin a crime so what is the difference between CN and Radical Islam/Isis? When the Bible or Christian principles become the law of the land, it makes breaking the law a crime. The founding fathers did not separate church and state, Jesus did. Our God is omniscient so he will never give that authority to politicians.
I think the question is who was the real Jesus? How was he as a person in his time? Was he how most Christians describe him from what they learned growing up or is the answer more nuanced and complicated? We only seem to know him from the Bible (mainly) or other sources but the fact remains is that none of us today know with 100% certainty. People just think they know but it's all wrapped up in a long history with different opinions and guess work. Maybe he was just a spiritually enlightened person who just tried to help people discover their own inner-light and self-confidence. Maybe things about him have been so misunderstood for years that we actually know jack shit about him. And Christians seem to think they got the right story on him. I think he would be absolutely appalled, horrified and disgusted at the thought of people killing in his name.
If we're to be really honest about the founding of the United States, due deference must be given to the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois Confederacy) for a great deal of structural and procedural methods in our Constitution. Both George Washington and Ben Franklin were thoroughly familiar with it and knew the first "united" American nation was indigenous. Of course it's hard to admit to this as the Iroquois Confederacy has no Christian influence behind it. Jesus was not a prescriptive government Advisor, but He did lay out the values that should accompany all our dealings. Unfortunately I don't think most Christian Nationalist narratives promote the "meek" inheriting the Earth.
I also heard the Statue of Liberty at Convention-it was so moving to be there and I will never forget it! (I'm one of the Sheridan girls and just a little older than you.) It remains one of my favorite patriotic songs. I also enjoy your podcasts--the multi-generational perspectives are so good--keep sharing.
Was Jesus a Christian nationalist? He would not have explained the concept if you’d sat down and spent a whole day trying 😂 Nationalism and the idea of the state as an ethnic and cultural orthodoxy is two centuries old.
Jesus is King. Jesus commanded His followers to disciple the nations. That means preaching Christ to politicians unapologetically and Christian politicians governing according to God's Word.... unapologetically. Christ is King. And a society will have Christ or demons at its center.
Great discussion guys! However, there are many more nuances to the conversation. You would be remiss to think of the framework of the foundation of our nation in anything other than Christianity. In fact, the major drivers in the separation of church and state was the abolishment of a singular state-sanctioned church, like English rule had in the Church of England. Religious freedom was idealized as the freedom to practice any denomination of Christianity, namely Catholicism, Baptism, etc., many of the followers of which were discriminated against in early America. The United States were founded on Christian values, as evidenced by the writings of our founding fathers (see below). Further, the majority of states even required religious oaths and/or a belief in God to hold public office (the most recent of which was South Carolina, which revised its law in 1997). John Adams- 2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence: "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty... "Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System." Thomas Jefferson- 3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence: "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..." John Hancock- 1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence: "Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." James Madison- 4th U.S. President: "A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven." John Quincy Adams- 6th U.S. President: "The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)." The list goes on…The first Thanksgiving, signed into law by George Washington on October 3, 1789 was as a national day of prayer and thanksgiving to the Christian God, “that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions-- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.”
Great discussion, guys! The CN label will be the straw man thrown around during the election, but you have faithfully dissected “the animal” for the rest of us to give reasoned responses to those who may caricaturize Christianity and the Bible. Thank you!
Jesus is God. Christians follow Jesus the Christ. We work to make the invisible kingdom reality. In the United States of America we vote to make this a more Christian nation. Everyone benefits from a more Christian America.
Yet historically when the country was more religiously Christian more people were harmed and less people had rights. Not to mention how most abhorrent political policies were held up using religous rhetoric
What an utterly idiotic and blasphemous title. Jesus can't be a Christian because He is the Christ-get it? By definition, a Christian is someone who follows Christ. We worship Him. I didn’t bother watching this discussion, but judging by the title alone, I can only imagine how ridiculous it must have been. It’s clear these guys aren’t deep thinkers. The title is not just misguided; it’s downright disrespectful.
You dont even have to be Christian to be a Christian nationalist technically, its just the belief that laws, government and such should be based in Christianity
@@daveseviltwin11 Sure, but a correct one which most people will agree. I think we should base our society around humanistic values, not ones based on bronze age fairy tales.
