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Ways to Clean Stamps & Misti (or Other Positioning Tools) 

Crafting For Almost Everyone
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I wanted to share the best ways to clean stamps, both red rubber and clear acrylic, plus your stamp positioning tools, including the MISTI, Tim Holtz Stamp Platform and the Stamp Perfect.
Red Rubber Stamps:
I wanted to try to clean my Carolyn Shores Wright red rubber stamps that have been stamped with archival inks a long time ago. I wasn't able to get them clean at the time, and thought we'd give them a good cleaning to see what we could remove. I tried all of the stamp cleansers except the Hero Arts and they all removed a small amount of ink. I used 91% rubbing alcohol and wiped the stamp and it took a lot more of the ink off of the stamp.
I recommend rubbing alcohol any time you are trying to clean archival ink, as I think it does a nice job of cleaning it. I used a Rub it Scrub it with my homemade stamp cleanser to get the alcohol off of the stamp. I also like to use an old or inexpensive embossing ink pad and stamp it all over your red rubber stamps after you clean them, so they are conditioned. Don't wipe off the embossing ink as it is glycerin and does a wonderful job of keeping your stamps in good working order.
Close to My Heart Link: sanner.closetomyheart.com/def...
Stampin' Up cleanser link:
lbfiedler@gmail.com...If you contact Lydia on email, she'll take care of any of your Stampin' Up needs.
Ranger Inkssentials Stamp Cleanser Link: This is a dauber tinyurl.com/ybma8fd4
Hero Arts Stamp Cleanser link: tinyurl.com/ybmmkvnz
My own homemade cleanser is
1 tsp. baby shampoo (I buy mine at the Dollar Tree)
10 tsp. water
1/4 tsp glycerin (optional)
Rub it Scrub It link: tinyurl.com/y9hxp9j4
When I cleaned my stamps, all of the store bought cleansers work about the same. The Hero Arts will take more ink off of your stamps, but it is really harsh and smells terrible. I prefer the alcohol instead.
Clear Stamps:
I used my own stamp cleanser on an old dirty archival ink stained clear stamp, and then used Hand Sanitizer from the Dollar Tree to clean it. It does an amazing job of cleaning them. I used micro brushes to get in the grooves as well as QTips, and both do a terrific job of getting in the old ink off of your clear stamps.
Aliexpress eyeshadow brushes: tinyurl.com/y8owovbh
Lawn Fawn Stamp Shammy Link: tinyurl.com/y8j3mb8c
Absorber Link: tinyurl.com/ybgx6xnr
The Absorber is supposed to work just like the Stamp Shammy and I wanted to try it, so I got a jar that has a hinged lid and I put a very small amount of my stamp cleanser in the bottom of the jar, and put the Rub It Scrub it inside as well as my Absorber piece.
You need to leave an opening in your storage system so that it doesn't get moldy.
MISTI or other Stamp Positioning Tools:
Hand Sanitizer is the greatest cleaner
Here is my contact information:
Email: saundralparker@yahoo.com
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10 июн 2018

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Комментарии : 80   
@cathymiller4489
@cathymiller4489 5 лет назад
The hand sanitizer was perfect for cleaning my stamping platform! Thank-you.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 5 лет назад
I'm really glad you liked it, and it will work for cleaning your red rubber stamps too..I try to stick to my homemade cleanser for clear stamps, as they can break down with a lot of chemical use...Let me know if you have any other issues that I can help with in the crafty world...Sandy
@terrie1226
@terrie1226 6 лет назад
I only use the hand sanitizer and baby wipes for my stamps and never had a problem also I love the hand sanitizer for ink on my hands it works perfectly... Thanks for the overview of stamp cleaners it's good know how they work.....well done Sandy
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
Thanks Terrie...Do you get fuzz from the baby wipes? I hate fuzz and have a hard time getting it out of the little lines.
@ltdesigns2
@ltdesigns2 6 лет назад
I use Awesome multi- purpose cleaner I get at Dollar Tree. Works great! I add glycerin to condition my stamps. I don't worry about staining. I just clean them when I get through.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I've never tried it on my stamps, but like it for other surfaces...Thanks for the great idea!!
@barbaratobias4441
@barbaratobias4441 6 лет назад
Thank you so much for sharing this valuable information. Nice that you share what works best and compare some different ideas (products) with us. Thank you for all the effort you put into your show.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I like to make sure we see as many products as possible to see if any do a better job than another. I forgot to mention that I spray my stamp cleanser on my work surface to clean it as well. I forget to mention so many things in videos that I think will help others, and I really appreciate that all of you add to the things I forget. I'm sure you have more tips I missed. Thanks for your kind words, Barb, it means a lot to me. Sandy
@gmaof2fornow
@gmaof2fornow 5 лет назад
Just the video I was looking for! Thank you so much for all the good onformation.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 5 лет назад
So glad I could help. If you have any other questions you need help with, please let me know and I'd be happy to help...Sandy saundralparker@yahoo.com
@adrinem4513
@adrinem4513 5 лет назад
I usually have a baby wipe or wet rag or paper towels right next to me when I stamp. Right after I’m done with a stamp I stamp it several times on the wet cloth or wipes and it takes off the remaining ink. I rarely use a stamp cleaner. I’m happy to learn that glycerine conditions stamps. That’s a great tip! Thank you!
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 5 лет назад
The glycerin is for red rubber stamps, and hope I made that clear...it does a nice job of keeping them from drying and cracking. Loved your tip to remove ink....Sandy
@sharishafii2874
@sharishafii2874 6 лет назад
Awesome information Sandy! Thank you for sharing. 😊. I appreciate all your tips. Hugs, Shari
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
Shari, I'm so glad I can help. I try to find as many inexpensive ways to help viewers as I can....If you have any suggestions for a video, maybe a technique you'd like to master, or a tool that never works like you want, let me know...I'd be happy to make one....Sandy saundralparker@yahoo.com
@UR22NOZ
@UR22NOZ 6 лет назад
What a great video on cleaning Stamps etc! Thanks... p.s., a little thing I do with my wood mount Stamps? I seal the wood (Stamp side) with clear nail polish! You can get a big bottle at Sally’s Beauty Supply for a few dollars and it lasts forever. The brush makes it easy to paint the wood and then the wood NEVER stains with inks. Keeps them looking new for years 😊
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
Sherry, Great tip on covering the wood with nail polish. That would never have occurred to me....Great idea!
@Fit_Kitty
@Fit_Kitty 6 лет назад
Very informative! Thank you!
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I like your photo...pretty kitty! Hope you got some good ideas from it..
@Elizabeth45840
@Elizabeth45840 6 лет назад
Awesome! Thank you so much for sharing!
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
Hope you got an idea out of it that will help you.
@Elizabeth45840
@Elizabeth45840 6 лет назад
Crafting For Almost Everyone yes I did thank you!
@MargaretMcGee1
@MargaretMcGee1 6 лет назад
Sandy thank you for the cleaning lessons. I'll try using your solution. Guess I'll make a trip to the Dollar Tree Store in the near future. TFS.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I like my cleanser because it's really gentle and make sure to buy some hand sanitizer and rubbing alcohol so you can clean everything you stamp with. Oh, and another viewer mentioned she takes ink off of her hands with her hand sanitizer and I forgot to mention that in the video....Let me know how you like it.
@parmacrafter
@parmacrafter 6 лет назад
I love how in depth you always go with your tests Sandy! I have a cloth a lot like the absorber. I absolutely love it. It started out at 24x48 inches. I have cut it down into many smaller 6x8 inch pieces. Doubt I will ever need another one. I had tried Awesome cleaner in the past but it really likes to pit rubber stamps even when you water it down. I have found that my all time favorite is from Fun Stampers Journey (called True Color Fusion Cleaner). It takes off EVERYTHING! I've been using it for quite some time (well over a year now), and in spite of the obvious strength it has not broken down any of my stamps. It will strip off your nail polish though. This stuff takes off my archival ink and even Staz-On. For my dye inks I just use my homemade cleaner (pretty much the same basic baby shampoo recipe most use). I have also been purchasing Vegetable Glycerine by the quart from Amazon (so many uses) to condition my stamps after cleaning.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
Thanks for your tips. I always love hearing what others are cleaning their stamps with. Takes your nail polish off? You know I'm not going to repaint my nails, so I'm scared of that one, haha.....Great info on the Awesome cleanser. I wondered if some of the cleansers are too strong for stamps. Thanks for the help with that one...
@tjpapercreations
@tjpapercreations 6 лет назад
Thanks for all your info videos, I love watching your channel. I use the Brutus Monroe stamp cleaner. It does great on my clear stamps. I can't remember if I've used it yet on my rubber stamps. But then i use a shammy and it doesn't leave the fuzzies like baby wipes do. Keep bring the great videos! Thanks for all you do!
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
Tonya, Thanks so much for your kind words. You're the second viewer that says they use Brutus Monroe cleanser. I like the shammy I bought and have been doing a much better job cleaning my stamps since making my jar of goodies...Nice hearing from you....more videos are on their way.
@norinemueller4588
@norinemueller4588 6 лет назад
Great tips thank you. I use an old tooth brush to get into the nooks works great
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
So glad you left this tip....I completely forgot to mention old tooth brushes.....Thanks for the help.
@DesignsbyShell
@DesignsbyShell 6 лет назад
Good tips! TFS!
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
Glad to help!
@grannybibi
@grannybibi 6 лет назад
WOW, great information Sandy. Thank you for taking the time to do this video. It was awesome!!! I’m going to look for the “Absorber”. What a great fine. Have a wonderful, blessed day. My favorite stamp cleaner is actually from Brutus Monroe, called Squeaky Clean. It’s really good and it smells good too.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I love hearing the stamp cleaners that others use. The Absorber is cheapest in the auto dept of your local Walmart, and comes in a lot of colors. (When I bought Rich's, I didn't know that, or probably wouldn't have chosen purple.) The jar I use was a garage sale find, but holds both the small rub it scrub it pad and the Absorber. I recommend you squirt a little of your stamp cleanser on the Absorber in a jar that has some ventilation, or it will get moldy. Also wash it under warm water and rinse it before using to get rid of the weird squeaky sound it makes when you first buy it. It also helps to make it more pliable. I keep a squirt bottle with my homemade cleanser below my desk and just squirt some in when I need to. Your Absorber will get a little crunchy when it's dry, but will come right back after you wet it. I like using it with peg stamps, as I can just rub my stamp on it in the jar without having to take it out. It cleans the MISTI great too...Let me know how you like it...Sandy
@grannybibi
@grannybibi 6 лет назад
I sure will, thanks for all the great info. Have a blessed day. Always enjoy hearing from you.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
Great talking to you as well...Would you email me, I have a question for you....saundralparker@yahoo.com
@CharChar876
@CharChar876 6 лет назад
A very nice video. This information will come in handy when finding used stamps at a thrift shop. I came across a few and found Stays On worked well for the ones I had. So glad of that! After seeing the issue a permanent ink would do on a stamp here. UGh! I'm new at staming and only have water based inks so far. Easy to clean with water. LOL The ones I found at the thrift shop, I had put Stays On on the stamp, let it sit to hydrate a little while and put more on again. Let sit a few more minutes then wipe off. They came out well, but I see they can come out better!
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
Are you using Staz On cleanser? If so, it's really hard on your stamps, and you might want to use some glycerin or a Versamark ink pad and rub it all over the surface so it rehydrates it. I don't like using any cleansers that are super smelly either, and try to stay away from them. As for stamping, I have a lot of videos on inks and which work best with what...Here's one you might like. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lAh5ALGsDXI.html and ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-YGgJTGuqLho.html I've made a lot of videos for the new stamper, so if you have a topic you'd like me to cover, I'd be glad to help....saundralparker@yahoo.com Sandy
@CharChar876
@CharChar876 6 лет назад
Thanks so much!
@barbaraharrold5361
@barbaraharrold5361 6 лет назад
Clever ideas:)
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
Thanks Barb..I found alcohol removes more left behind ink than any other cleanser, but worried it would hurt my stamps. So a little rinse and some glycerin and they're ready to go. What do you and Gracie use?
@bobbinsew
@bobbinsew 6 лет назад
Another awesome video, I didn’t know that hand sanitizer was so good at cleaning the Misti. I bought the Misti recommended cleaner and conditioner but don’t find that they work that well and I’ve got marks still all over the door, but only till I get the hand sanitizer on it! Did you know that there is a cleanser made by Staz On that cleans it off with no problem? It also works on archival inks too. I’ve got a couple of soft toothbrushes that I use on my stamps, I’m not averse to taking them to the sink and scrubbing them with the toothbrush and appropriate cleanser before rinsing off and drying. I’ve been doing this for years with no problems! I know that stained stamps work just fine but I just can’t cope with leaving them like that!!!!!!
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I hate stained stamps and that's why I wanted to see if the cleansers and alcohol would get the stains off. Most of the stains are gone, but it frustrates me that they stain in the first place. The four bird stamp I immediately cleaned with Staz On cleanser (had it at that time) and it didn't remove the stains. I was so upset and frustrated as it was a brand new stamp and new Stampin' Up archival black ink pad....shouldn't have stained it like that....I contacted SU rep and she said she'd never had that problem. Bummer that it happened to me. I think you'll be amazed at how the hand sanitizer cleans your Misti. I also have that cleanser and you're right, good for cleaning tough spots. I didn't like how harsh the Staz on cleanser was and gave it to a friend when I stopped using Staz on inks. They're too much work for me. I still have them, but think alcohol will take it off just as well as their cleanser. Thanks for your tips. I always love hearing what others use to clean their stamps with.
@spookygeek9459
@spookygeek9459 5 лет назад
Thank you for that😊
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 5 лет назад
Glad to help...
@PatriciaRae77
@PatriciaRae77 6 лет назад
This was great, Sandy. I use baby wipes most of the time just because they are so convenient. I have a cleaner from Hobby Lobby, a scrubber, and the Absorber, too. The cleaner is ok and does smell nice. The scrubber works pretty well, but some fuzz gets on my stamps and you must clean the scrubber once in a while. The Absorber is great, but it’s hard to keep it moist . I had no idea we could use alcohol or hand sanitizer safely on the stamps . Thanks for your research!
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I saw Tim Holtz use hand sanitizer on something a long long time ago, and forgot to mention it in the video. I figured if he thought it was OK to use, I could use it as well. It does a great job. Not sure where I heard about the alcohol. I wouldn't leave it on the stamps, so I just rinse them and then put the glycerin on to keep them nice and hydrated. Since my Absorber is new, it's kind of squeaky when I use it...will that go away with time? I appropriated it from Rich when I saw someone use it as a DIY stamp shammy, but so far, hate the squeakiness. I'm hoping my jar with a little water (or my stamp cleanser) in the bottom will keep it wet.,....I'll let you know how it works,
@tammymalich3439
@tammymalich3439 6 лет назад
Thank you for the cleaning tips. I have a bottle of cleaner I got at Hobby Lobby. It smells good. It says it smells like bubble gum. I also use baby wipes and I have a cleaning cloth that I used just for crafting messes.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I love hearing what others use for cleaning their stamps. Baby wipes leave so much fuzz behind, and I prefer my baby bibs, or your cleaning cloth....
@sandramullen7804
@sandramullen7804 3 года назад
Cant understand why anyone wouldn't clean their stamps ASAP ie , after every use . Mine are like brand new ,you'd never know how many different inks have been on them. It also prolongs the image of the stamp . A soft toothbrush works great for more intricate detailed stamps too
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 3 года назад
I've bought some of my stamps second hand that were already stained, and I used Staz On ink on some red rubber stamps that permanently stained them, and nothing I used would take it off. I try to clean my stamps right away unless I'm making a video, then clean them when I am done.
@That1grI
@That1grI 4 года назад
Awesome tips yay hand sanitizer!
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 4 года назад
I think you'll be amazed at how well it cleans your crafty things...Glad to give you a tip that you enjoyed...
@MargaretMcGee1
@MargaretMcGee1 6 лет назад
Question - how do you get rid of the strong smell that lingers on some of the clear silicone transparency stamps. The brand stamps mainly (Ali Express stamps do not stink). I have to let the strong scented ones air out in the garage which can often take weeks before the scent is gone.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I would wash them with a gentle dish detergent like Dawn, and use a toothbrush with it to make sure you really get them clean. Hopefully that will take out the smell. I have a bad nose so don't smell much, so maybe others can jump in here with their ideas.
@carolg.6838
@carolg.6838 4 года назад
Margaret, would you say what brands? I am very sensitive to fragrances and chemical odors (Dawn dish soap included). I sure would like to steer clear. I am fairly new to stamping and haven't run across that yet.
@MargaretMcGee1
@MargaretMcGee1 2 года назад
@@carolg.6838 Sorry Carol for the long delay in responding. The stamps that stink are from altenew. They are good stamps but the smell is awful.
@SouthernAngelsStamping
@SouthernAngelsStamping 4 года назад
If you use an old tooth brush that will help get your stamps clean better and faster than those little makeup applicators. Hope that helps. Have a blessed day😇💕💜
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 4 года назад
Thanks for the idea. I use old toothbrushes and completely forgot to mention it when making the video. That happens to me when I am filming...I'm so glad you reminded me to ensure others are aware of it....Have a Happy 4th of July..Sandy
@SL-wk6dp
@SL-wk6dp 5 лет назад
What do you think of the We r memory keepers template studio?
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 5 лет назад
SL, I'd never heard of it before reading your comment, so watched an overview video on YT. It seems to be fairly large, and I don't think I would be able to use it because of its size. If you look at the scoring and cutting blades, you need to be able to hold them and keep them in the "rails" they provide, in order to cut or score. I don't think I could maintain the strength to be able to cut or score on such a large scale. If you are trying to make a box, you can do it without tools...here's a video I made that might help. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-noulmGUslkg.html and here's a video from Sea Lemon on how to make gift bags. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-hWXa9ZO2U4g.html I think the tool you asked about looks like it would make a huge bag or box, but my other question would be where would you find thick paper larger than 12 x 12"... I hope I didn't upset you with my answer, as I am giving you my personal point of view, and that might not be the same for others....Sandy
@heatherparks4251
@heatherparks4251 4 года назад
Have you tried simple green? Its awesome.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 4 года назад
I have used it but not on my Misti...I'll have to give that a whirl. I did try a Magic Eraser on another of my stamp platforms (that's no longer available, called Stamp Perfect) and the Magic Eraser scratched the door so much that it's now almost foggy...so glad I didn't use it on my Mistis.....Sandy
@barbaraharrold5361
@barbaraharrold5361 6 лет назад
Sandy I clean my stamps after I use them, before I stamp my next thing so my stamps are clean. I user a baby wipe that I buy from Costco. I’m very anal about not cleaning them right away:)
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I clean mine but some inks are hard to get off. The four blue birds was really annoying, as I used a new Stampin' Up black archival ink, and no matter what I did, it would not come off of the stamp. I tried Staz On cleaner and nothing...So disappointing. I normally clean my stamps, but if I'm doing a video, will wait until the video is done, and by then, some inks don't like to come off...
@sandramullen7804
@sandramullen7804 3 года назад
Same here 😊
@lrhardwick
@lrhardwick 6 лет назад
Hi there, I’m trying to find the name for the bottles that you push down on and liquid comes out? Not the pump but the other. Hope this makes sense? Love your videos! Thanks for sharing.
@lrhardwick
@lrhardwick 6 лет назад
It’s ok I found it on AliExpress. It’s called nail polish remover pump bottle in case anyone else was wanting to know.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I usually type in gel nail pump bottle and it comes right up...Glad you found it...Sandy
@artsygigi
@artsygigi 6 лет назад
Does anyone know about using Simple Green. I use it for cleaning it is safe for pets. I don't know about using it on stamps if anyone uses it please let me know.
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I think Lindsay used to use it in her craft room, but I'm not sure what for. Maybe someone else remembers...
@sonyalum1027
@sonyalum1027 5 лет назад
Why I used dish wash soap is that good?
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 5 лет назад
If you use a small amount of Dawn it might be Ok, but normally you need to rinse off dishwashing detergent...so how do you avoid that?
@jaytee2642
@jaytee2642 5 лет назад
I'm supposed to clean my stamps??😯 Yikes! I've actually done very little stamping, but I usually just blot any remaining ink off onto scratch paper. Nice to learn something new.👍🏻 But now I'm wondering about residue left from the cleaners and the embossing stamp that you use to condition the stamps. Does it cause any problem with proper inking of the stamp later on? Well, I guess obviously it doesn't or people wouldn't do it. LOL But it still nags at my brain cells. 🧠😉
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 5 лет назад
Cleaning your stamps is important so you don't end up getting a strange color (if you use different colored inks)...You can use baby wipes as well, but they sometimes leave small fuzz behind. The embossing stamp has basically glycerin in it and that's safe for stamps and re-hydrates your red rubber ones..If you don't keep them hydrated and live in a dry climate or have a heating system that dries your air, they will get brittle and crack with age, so by using the embossing stamp on them, it ensures they don't have any issues, and no, it won't harm your stamps. Let me know if you have other questions...Sandy
@jaytee2642
@jaytee2642 5 лет назад
Crafting For Almost Everyone Thank you so much for the info. It really helps.👍🏻
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 5 лет назад
I'm happy to help anytime...
@francesinglis6078
@francesinglis6078 3 года назад
Found your video on the stamp cleaning as I have baby shampoo I will using that . I only have the clear ones and I’m sure there is a bib somewhere
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 3 года назад
I love having bibs hanging from the arm of my craft room chair...any time I have a mess, it's right there, and then I wash it when it gets too dirty. No more worrying about getting baby wipes during covid.. The baby shampoo will clean the clear stamps. I only use about 1-2 tsp. per bottle of water so it's not overly sudsy.. Happy I could help..Hope all is well with you. Sandy
@nsbhater
@nsbhater 6 лет назад
Have you tried using a toothbrush?
@craftingforalmosteveryone
@craftingforalmosteveryone 6 лет назад
I felt so bad that I forgot to mention that in the video..Thanks for the reminder, and I hope others see this so they'll use one to get into the grooves and tiny lines that they sometimes miss with other methods...Sandy
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