Toby Ziegler has a fight with Josh Lyman. Toby lost his brother, who committed suicide, and blames Josh for leaving the White House. He also helped an opponent of Josh candidate Santos...
I feel like Toby's character had the weakest ending. He just sort of fizzled out and though I feel like it was somewhat in line with his character to be the leak, it still doesn't sit right with me.
@@benpriest9555 yeah, he would never would do the leak. He will go nuts, try to persuade Bartlet, have a fight with CJ... but never do the leak. Actually he would have quit after Will changed "to the enemy", CJ was promoted, Josh go to campaign and he... was *demoted* to press secretary! Crazy.
@@gabrielabagala, if Toby had gone to Bartlet or CJ and was unsuccessful in getting them to change their minds about the military shuttle, I actually think Toby leaking the info he leaked (military shuttle) would very much be in character for him. He's trying to save lives on the shuttle because he couldn't save his own brother's life. I've been there when it comes to losing a brother, and it will make you do some *REALLY* strange things at times, including something like this. I couldn't save my brother, so I tried to "save" someone else with the same issue, and that didn't go well, either. By the end, I was completely apathetic as far as what happened next, and I suspect that's how Toby was, too. He didn't care what happened to him. He just wanted to save *somebody* because he couldn't save his own brother.
@@storyofcory I get that people can do weird things when they're in dire straits, but Toby's brother was already in serious trouble with the shuttle in season 1 or 2, and yet Toby didn't say anything (of course, it was another writer...). Toby grew up with his father in prison, surely he would think before doing that to his children. In fact, he angrily commented that his brother committed suicide and did not think that his children (his brother's) could find him. Toby wouldn't talk to a reporter, too, because he knows full well that press pressure isn't going to change the president's mind. He knows how Bartlet thinks. It's just not his style: not Bartlet's, not Toby's.
Honestly, I totally buy this fight. First off, Josh showed in season 1 when Sorkin was writing that he'd get physical. He shoved Lillianfield up against a wall for insulting Leo and Sam had to break it up. Now Toby's here insulting Santos, who he's basically jumped off a cliff for, gone all in for. Both men feel intensely betrayed by the other and are angry at each other for feeling that way. Josh for Toby making the race harder to win, Toby for Josh leaving, not even considering him, cutting him out. Toby has just been taking loss after loss. Loss of Leo as COS, loss of the President's health and the burden it puts on staff, loss of his brother, loss of so many things he wanted to do because they're trying to fill the vacuum of Josh's absence and the clock is ticking, loss of his job as he understands it because now he has to step up to where CJ was. Will said in S5 that this was Toby's last one. That he didn't have another race in him. Also, we might consider that some of that anger is Josh being pissed at himself. We saw in Bartlet's re-election campaign that Josh gets pissed when he feels he screwed up and it's his fault. Put all that together with people who really cared about each other, who usually had each other's backs and who were like brothers, who still care enough to get THAT angry who are both stressed to the max and yeah, I buy that Josh would just not be able to take one more person he used to trust and believe in turning on him and being against him, especially after Donna left her job with him. I buy that for a minute, he'd just lose it.
I feel the same way. Too many people feel that its stupid or out of place. Do I like this fight? Of course not..but it was coming. If anything I thought that when it started it would be longer/worse. But for what we get..like you say - both men have reasons, ideas and obviously reasons for getting into this fight...it was just all this "stuff" coming to blow between two very very intelligent, smart and proud men who (at the time of the episode) were working for men they both love and deeply care for/respect. I just wish we had a little more time with the characters after the election.
+Meg Freeman I know this is late but this is a perfect breakdown of why the fight is a natural reaction to everything that led up to it. I actually like the fight and find it perfectly in character for both characters. Toby and Josh were basically brothers and both feel intensely betrayed by the other on top of everything else they were suffering through.
My only problem is that it should be the other way around. Toby should have been pushed out of the Whitehouse for arguing with the President and taken on the impossible mission of making a complete nobody president, and Josh should have been supporting Russell just to "win" instead of Will. There could have been an entire season about this conflict.
I always felt this fight was well earned. Remember that Josh and Toby were skipped over for CJ as Chief of Staff. This is a fight between the two former heirs to Leo both passed over in the succession of power. Leo didn't even consider them when Bartlett asked for a shortlist. Then, instead of finding a new candidate together, Josh goes it alone. The feelings of betrayal are deep by the time this scene appears. Now, I did feel the writers could have done a better job flushing out just how betrayed both characters had grown to feel, and the whole attaching Leo to Santos thing never felt right to me. But, this fight may have been the most honest writing of the season.
The problem with what you say is that Josh didn’t want Chief Of Staff (COS). He truly, honestly understood he was better as the Deputy COS than the COS. I honestly think Josh was uncomfortable in his role as campaign manager for the Santos campaign. Yeah, he was responsible for going to and getting Santos to run for POTUS, but I got the sense *several* times during the campaign that Josh would have *willingly* stepped aside and let someone else run the campaign. He just didn’t seem comfortable in the role at times. As for Toby, when you step back and look at the history between them, Toby and President Bartlet had had tense exchanges between the two of them in the past. Knowing that, I think it was unrealistic to even consider Toby for COS, because Toby would have flat out driven President Bartlet almost literally insane, and I, for one, believe that Toby understood that. Toby was who he was, and would never willingly change for anyone, even President Bartlet, and still had the sensabilities to realize that he got under people’s skin more than he meant to.
Tough scene. Toby felt like Josh abandoned him, like he'd lost his best friend. Sam left for California. Josh left to campaign with Santos. Watching Toby cry over his lost brother and his lost friendship was heartbreaking.
Scrappy527 I remember in the final year toby yell at leo cause he had heart and President had ms. If he’s mad cause things were not getting done or clock was ticking I get that but you can’t get mad for something not going the way you want it to go
@@joemirotta1242 I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think Toby was as "mad" as he was just plain frustrated at how bad things had gotten after Leo's heart attack and the President's MS "attack", and I think Toby is allowed to feel that frustration. Things were not going well for Bartlet and his staff during his last year or two in office, and it was frustrating AF for them not to be able to control certain things that they had once taken for granted (Leo being there all the time; Bartlet being in good health and not incapacitated).
Toby was also pretty lonely at this point, after being rejected by Andy. Josh was his last friend (CJ becoming his boss means they couldn't pal around as they had), and he felt like he couldn't leave just because things got tough. I didn't agree with the writers having he and Josh fight, but I could see him pushing Josh away, when he really wanted to follow him.
This scene had such a nasty sting to it. Two long time close friends and colleagues who vent their anger and frustration (first verbally and then attacking each other physically) is unnerving to watch and Richard Schiff and Bradley Whitford totally sell it. In an instant, you see a friendship shatter and whilst it was ultimately repaired, it was never the same as it previously was......
Toby wasn't wrong. Josh should have consulted his friend, and then leveraged his friend. This is the back-stabbing Pelosi would do and does. Pelosi is a blight on the American people and the most corrupt lifelong politician to ever get her punk-a$$ elected.
They showed Toby regularly giving Josh advice in phone calls from his home after he was fired. I actually liked that they didn't show the make up itself. It was as if this fight was something that needed to happen in order to express their anger, and now they went back to normal.
To be fair, given the way his brother killed himself, Josh's comment about Toby being "A waste of oxygen that useful people could be breathing" isn't out of line to warrant Toby's reaction.
+Bitemis If we he was any true friend Josh would have realized that Toby was angry, upset, betrayed, tired, vengeful, grieving all at once, Toby brother died and if anyone knows Toby it is how little he shares with anyone so obviously he is not doing too well mentally. Josh should have given Toby his space the moment he didn't want to grab lunch, instead of picking a political fight with Toby at the worst moment possible. If Josh was a true friend he would not needle his grieving friend over an issue that was insignificant compared to the loss of family, how is Josh's political campaign more important than Toby's brother's death at that very moment. But like many have commented before Sorkin would not have written a scene like this. West Wing was about politics but behind that the driving force was the relationships, loyalty, bond between the characters and many times if not always those virtues were placed ahead of politics.
Just imagine how Sam would have behaved in this situation. Josh was always the political bulldog, a thuggish character. Josh lacked the conciliatory understanding and a kindness enveloped in wisdom that Sam had. Toby needed someone like Sam at this moment to give him a shoulder to cry on, Toby must have felt so alone no wonder he snapped.
This is my first time binge watching TWW and this scene... I got chills. Seeing it for the first time (much to my friend's delight because she's watched it on repeat for five years straight) and getting terrified of Josh and Toby fighting was just gut wrenching because I'm like, "NO, PLEASE. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE BROTHERS. PLEASE."
They were brothers, even in this scene. My brother and I fought a lot, too, during and after our formative years. Just because they had a serious fight doesn't mean that they stopped being brothers. If anything, it may have even reinforced that brotherly bond.
My brother and I are 17 year apart so we never had this kind of relationship. My boys, however, are just a little over a year apart though and they do. I've seen them nearly beat to crap out of each other over a chess match, just to fall asleep cuddling with each other a few hours later (still boys not teens). Always found with them, its isn't the fight itself that matters has much as how they handle the aftermath. The fight can actually be helpful in terms of getting in touch with their real feelings.
See here's the thing with this fight. You have to place it in the context of Toby losing his brother, who killed himself, and Toby not being able to reconcile that. "You dropped a bunch of stuff and walked away," he tells Josh. But perhaps we should read it as if he's talking to his brother. Toby is angry and confused and it's clear that he is using Josh as a conduit for that anger. I absolutely loved this episode ('Drought Conditions') writer Deborah Cahn did a brilliant job with it. The acting is superb. Richard Schiff just broke my heart with his performance.
The West Wing is so good, the characters, the acting, the writing, everything is so good. For me it's like an old friend, a warm blanket, and every now and then I go back to it and it just brings me comfort.
In essence, these characterizations CAN be supported by season 1-4 (Sorkin) episodes. The character flaws (Toby's unwillingness to admit fault, Josh's habit of beating himself up for any failure and then deflecting the anger externally) are all there. The situation they are in here is an absolute pressure cooker, with both men feeling very hurt by the other. And nothing hurts more than the apparent rejection / betrayal of someone you thought was your friend. They are lashing out in pain. It's hard to watch, yes, and it's a different tone from the early seasons, but it's NOT out of character, given a certain interpretation of character.
so much. and Toby not being able to fight his late brother gets to yell at and fight with Josh, who was his brother in every way but blood. in so many ways, I think he needed this.
The West Wing is quite simply one of the very best TV shows ever. It is a high water mark of the Genre, The summit of the Golden age of TV drama. I have watched all 7 seasons about 6 times now and some scenes are still powerful enough to move you- even though you know it's acting. The portrayal of friendships - Josh & Toby; Josh & Sam; CJ & Toby; The President & Leo - is masterful. The moral dilemmas which the characters regularly face are so accessible. There is a basic goodness in many of the characters. There is a wonderful storyline where Leo's history threatens to bring him down and there are Congressional hearings (I am not from the US - forgive me if I have labeled that incorrectly). A Republican has 'stuff' on Leo and is about to 'out' him when he is stopped by two other Republicans on the committee. Cliff (who has dated Donna) is one of them. He approaches the Senator who was about to out Leo and says " This, right here. This is why people hate us. I will be waiting for you in the long grass Senator". The characters believe in the idea of America and see the challenges of maintaining that idea in a real world of politics, ambition and everyday human weakness. Ainsley Hayes sees through the partisan clouds she was raised in, sees that although they're Democrats, Leo, Sam, CJ, Josh also believe in the idea of America in the same way she does and tells her friends -" They are patriots and I'm their Lawyer". There are characters you love to hate (Speaker Haffley), characters you love (Mrs Landingham) characters you admire (The President) and characters you wish would just get on with it (Josh & Donna; CJ & Danny). What's not to like? I have e feeling binge watch number 7 isn't far off this winter (the joy of being retired).
whats heartbreaking about it two selfish immature egomaniacs thinking their the only one ever right? Especially when both are almost always wrong particularly in this case. And ultimately in the end both are overly emotional & take everything personal. The only person to blame for david's cowardness is david & Toby knows it but cowardly needs someone else to be the scapegoat.
I started watching this show in the second season. I had been at Fox for a couple of years after being recruited by an old friend from another studio. It was a crazy situation but I had advantages that I do not realize. It was an absolute joy to put in 16 hour days and 6 day weeks that first year. This show opens doors for everyone about just how hard our jobs are, we are and the energy and focus we have to bring to the table day after day. And we do. Joyfully. Government, entertainment, technology. They are all the same. We bring our hearts and minds every day with passion and drive. Because we love it. This show told the story in ways that are not often so well described or portrayed. This show is one of the absolute gems of television for me.
@DarqueStar - The more you hate this scene means you care about the characters so much you hate to see them fight. That's a compliment to the show for bringing us good characters we care this much about. Even the best of friends have their moments. Toby wanted to help Josh, but thought he would be included in selection of the candidate. That hurt him a lot... and it had to come out.
Brilliantly sequenced scene. It escalates so quickly after building so slowly. They both depict the loss of self control beautifully, first in their words and then physically. And the look on Margaret's face at the end...
*SPOILER ALERT* Leo died, Zoe kidnapped, Josh shot, Leo's heart attack, not to mention hundreds of touching monologues from all characters, but still this remains the saddest scene for me to watch. Totally agree, it's like watching your parents or your two best friends get mad at each other.
Oh my god. Tell me you can watch this scene and not be horrified. I almost can't watch this. I remember the first time I saw this and I just sat on my couch with my mouth open.
If you think about it, this had to be a hard scene for Whitford and Schiff to do. I haven’t seen this in a long time, and it surprised me that Toby told Josh to “Get Off!” right before they stopped fighting. I can’t help but wonder if that was an agreed upon signal to stop the fight. I mean, yeah, it’s probably in the script, but still… and if you notice, Richard Schiff has a cut on his face. I still can’t figure out if that’s a real cut or fake. Also, this should have included his talk with… I think CJ… where she said that David didn’t have anymore fight left in him. It would’ve been 50 times more powerful. Just sayin’...
Sorry for the reply to an old comment. But after reading yours, I suddenly realized your right, and I just hadn't seen what was so obviously presented to us before. I was angry Toby was saddled with the shuttle leak, for some time, but your comment completely changed my mind. Or at the very least I noticed for the first time that it was inevitable that his character was primed to do something like that. Very well written, blunt and to the point.
Although Toby is has a "cold face", throughout the show it's demonsrated again and again that he is quite the passionate person about ideas. More than Josh or CJ, I'd say.
YES. It may have been hard for people to see BECAUSE OF Schiff's acting abilities, but Toby was always bubbling with passion right beneath his proverbial surface, ready to burst out at any moment. Toby just needed a trigger for that passion to escape, and he found a good one this time around.
@jimbopumbapigsticks Don't lash out your disappointment of the post Sorkin West Wing on this perticular scene, which is one of the best that season. Obviously, this not just any fight. Toby and Josh already had plenty of shouting match, in fact they had one in pretty much every single episode. This is different. Toby felt betrayed by Josh's departure, he felt left on the side of something that could have mean a lot to him. Josh was pretty much his only true friend.
there are a few enormous blunders in the West Wing Series (the order is random): 1. letting Lowe go 2. the whole Camp David summit debacle and Jed firing Leo (I mean wht the actual hell were they thinking??) 3. way too much Kate Harper way too fast (why was the new gal there when Nancy McNally (a much better character) wasn't) 4. the idiotic Toby leak and Toby not going with Josh on the campaign, the best Toby moments post leak were all while he was advising Josh on the campaign, imagine how great it would be if they were doing it together 5. Promoting CJ, as much as I loved CJ's character I never could get behind this and 6. reducing the president to almost a vegetative state on teh China trip I own the DVD's and when I am bored or during other activities (cooking, web surfing, chores, ...) I just put one in and watch but I can't help but skip the scenes listed above
Could not agree with you more mate. You hit the nail on the head. Particularly what they did with Toby; they completely and utterly misunderstood his character.
+Josh Lyman Do not agree with the whole list, but absolutely with 1, 4 and 5. I would add the Leo as Vice-President plotline. Although he never got to fullfill his duties as VP, it was a ridiculous choice. Leo was not a man for the spotlights.
@Peter24601 VERY good point! I loved this episode so much. I also was cringing at Josh and Toby fighting so they really pulled it off both Richard and Bradley. However this was a showcase of Richard's talent for sure! Josh and Toby were my favorite duel so seeing them fight was hard to watch especially since it was Toby that found Josh when he was shot. I kept thinking how their relationship had changed post-Sorkin and it saddens me they never had a closing. :(
I’m rewatching earlier episodes and, even though there’s always been a camaraderie among all of them, it’s definitely the weakest between Toby and Josh. They both have acerbic attitudes and while Toby will always maintain his moral superiority, Josh is willing to bend at times to get stuff done - and they both are always kind of irked at each other for that.
The late seasons of West Wing were so weird. If Sorkin was writing, it would never have got violent. It wouldn’t have had to. Josh would have broken Toby down with words, then vice versa, until one left in silence. Imagine if in ‘a few good men’, the colonel instead of ridiculing the attorney and making everyone uncomfortable, he just started hitting people.
Of course Col. Jessup did try to get physical telling Kaffee that he was going to rip his head off and shit down his neck but was held back by the MPs.
It's unsettling seeing two people who have no idea how to engage in a physical fight have one; worse still when it's two people who you know are such good friends. Some of the most vicious fights you can have are the ones you have with the people you love most.
I remember the first time I watched this scene. When Toby started talking about doing damage with a roll of pennies I thought "This is it. This is how Josh dies." Such a well done scene.
Toby was angry about being left behind and overlooked. He was overlooked by the admin when CJ was promoted and he was overlooked/left behind by Josh, not to mention by Josh when his brother died.
I can't stand Toby. He is pissed off at josh, Leo, the president basically everyone. Not everything is bout him. I understand his brother died and josh left but Toby pretty much laughed in josh face when he didn't like the idea of Santos
+Joey Mirotta That's part of Toby's character, always has been. He gets pissed at others because he projects his own flaws onto them. He doesn't have an easy time admitting failure or weakness, it's always the other guy's fault. And I say that as someone who dearly loves the character, btw.
Toby wouldn't have made a good chief of staff imo. His communication skills aren't good enough, which is ironic since he is communications director lol
I binge watch TWW every year since it was broadcast and this is one of the few scenes I often fast forward through. It's too painful. Partly because it was about isolating Toby further and setting things up for the space shuttle leak. Right down to the role his brother *might* have had in that. It does reinforce how special the gang where when they were working together rather than apart. Josh lashes out when he feels unsupported, Toby pushes people away. It makes the decision to appoint Cliff as deputy CoS at the end of the episode more impactful too. Yet again Cliff becomes the substitute Josh, first with Donna in season 3 and then again for the West Wing staff in Season 6.
This scene was weird, even for the post-Sorkin West Wing. At their lowest points, I'm sure Josh and Toby would have a shouting match, but never resort to physically beating each other. Writers screwed up because they just didn't understand the characters.
The penny line is true by the way. But if you have a bigger hand, you should take advantage of it and use a roll of quarters. My dad and I used to call it a poor man's knuckle duster
I don't know that this fight would have worked as well as it did if Sam and Leo were there. I feel like either one of them would have intervened and tried to break up the fight.
On the one hand, I can see the arguments of those who felt that Wells and his team ruined these characters. This is not the happy team of friends from seasons 1-4. But on the other hand, Toby WAS a crotchety, cranky, sometimes petty, always supercilious grognard right from the start. When he digs in his heels he often refuses to admit error or failing. And when his pride is wounded he can get nasty. I think the characterization here is that he felt hurt that Josh didn't come to him for advice as a mentor re: Santos, and that therefore (he felt) Josh was casting him aside. That wounded pride is why, when Josh asks for his advice belatedly, Toby refuses.
and he is / was coming off his brother killing himself....makes for a nasty state of mood. That and...Josh did totally ignore him (one of his closest friends) when he went to pick a future leader and so on..
There's only so much abandonment Toby could take, and he'd been dealt way too much of it running up to this. I really DO understand where he's coming from with this. And I understand Josh's more pragmatic position too. This is incredibly stressed classic Toby exploding as classic Josh exploded at the same time, and they damaged each other with the fallout 💔
@bigrob981 alsso people have to consider how small of a space they have there. What kind of fight were people expecting? I loved this episode and it really made Richard shine. I didn't like how he said that Josh didn't ask him.. BS, Josh went to Toby before hand and Toby just laughed it off basically.
He stays for the season he goes to Leo's funeral but sits near the back and leaves before it's over. He becomes Bob an alias he uses to talk to Josh by phone giving him help with the campaign. CJ comes to visit him a few times at home as does Josh. Stuff like that.
Well, I don't agree with that for a moment. But Richard Schiff (though not I think Bradley Whitford) felt that John Wells who took over from Sorkin didn't really get his character. It has to be said that he didn't feel so strongly that he left, however!
Actually Richard Schiff *kind of* left the show because he didn't like the direction of his character, that is why Toby is only a recurring character at the end of the series and has that whole leak thing. He basically left the show, but would show up occasionally.
That's how Hollywood works in a nutshell. New shows (pilots) are able to attract bright, young writers for a pittance. As the show gains traction and develops stability, these bright young writers ask for more money (and deservedly so). However, the producers are unwilling to share in the riches, which often result in the bright young writers leaving to find higher paying writing jobs for other shows. And then we're left with replacement writers who don't have the nuanced understanding nor passion towards these show characters.
Ignoring the bias I have to Sorkin writing, the problem I find in later seasons is that it was about individual. The hurdles in Sorkin writing is always an ideology, character may help them to drive forward but it's never about individual drama. Later season it became more about I vs you , then raising against common enemy
Right from the start Toby was an accident waiting to happen. Not that I'm blaming him for this scene. His aggressiveness was manifested in a rasied voice, raised progressivly to make even an innocuous point. He was a great shouter. He had to have his come uppance because he exploded so often, at anybody. His perennial temper was unleashed at the President (the President's father episode) When Toby's time had come, Bartlett let it be known to Toby that he always thought it would come to this.
Kind of funny how Toby goes into talking about using a roll of pennies to help do damage when he punches somebody, and then they actually fight by throwing paper at each other and sort of wrestling about for 10 seconds. This wasn't exactly round one of Hearns Hagler.
Plot hole: Josh refers to Ricky Rafferty as a him when she is revealed as a her later in the episode. Given that she is a presidential candidate, there's no way Josh would've not known her damn gender.
I get people not liking what happened to Toby and saying "he wouldn't do that" but no one in politics is perfect. Toby WAS petty. Josh DID like to pick fights. These were human characters, not saints. You can have the strongest principles but when you're scared - of ruining the party or losing family - you don't act rational and Toby was more than just principled. He was emotionally invested in his job. Emotions make us do dumb things when they get to us. The fact that this scene happened made them seem more real, not less
I *REALLY* wish that scene had been included in this… or, rather, the scene where CJ and Toby are talking, and Toby breaks down. Just makes me feel so bad for the guy… :(
Yes she was. It could be they wrote & shot this scene before casting the part; in-universe, Josh could be defaulting to the male pronoun bc he's half-way speaking hypothetically about how Toby *should* respond if someone really did steal his words
With respect, I disagree. The awkwardness made it feel real to me. Josh and Toby were men who made their way through the world on their intelligence; I don't see either as an "action" guy (in spite of Toby's implied suggestion that he'd seen some fighting as a kid. ) Their anger and sense of betrayal (esp. Toby, with his brother's suicide) came to a head in a physical outburst, which neither one of the knew how to finish. Mad as they were, I don't think either wanted to really hurt the other.
@gambitvoleur The fist fight didn't bother me, I bought it because Toby I think has always been one step away from this kind of thing even when Sorkin was writing. What does bother me is the stupid freeze frame. I've been watching the show all over again and I just got into season 5, first without Sorkin, and the first thing I notice is the way it's shot is totally different. Too much hand held camera, floating camera, odd editing techniques. Too much glitz. For me it cheapens the show a little
A controversial scene. Both sides have decent points. But note deborah cahn wrote this one. She also wrote some of the best episdoes of the post sorkin era.
He's halfway into hypothetical of how Toby should react if someone did steal his words; Josh is the type to default to the male pronoun more often than not
I think Toby was angry with lot at this point: President has ms, Leo had a heart attack, cj becomes chief of staff, and his brother died. If he’s upset with all that I understand that it there’s no reason to be angry at everyone and become bitter
The thing is, you can't really control who or what you're angry and bitter about all the time. You just can't, especially when you're dealing with the death of someone as close to you as a brother of yours.
For those who keep saying that Toby has the holier than thou attitude...i don't think that's the case....like the black saying I think he's just too real and have no filter but I agree he has some flaws....
