What do Space Marines need in the Data Balance Slate | Space Marines  

you know what would fix them? another primaris lieutenant

You know what Sternguard REALLY need? All of their goddamn weapon options back. Independent Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, Grav-Guns, Flamers, Stormbolters, Grav-Cannons, Plasma Cannons, etc. etc. They are the masters of ranged combat, so let them take *any* ranged weapon they may need! The model update neutered them just as much as the rules update did.

I want Heavy Intercessors Sergeants to get a decent melee weapon the way regular Intercessors can.

Space Marines are hoping to get a big bump in the next data slate. Watch nothing happen...again.

The armor of contempt isn't a substitution for transhuman . There's to meany 2/3 damage weapons that single handedly wipe out a whole unit of spacemarines. When they were strength 6/7 a few units survived, but with the jump in toughness, so did a lot of weapons, so they wound on 2s now . After the antitank firing takeout the tanks it just picks up spacemarines bodies.

For bladeguard i'd love to see their ability changed to reroll hit tolls of 1 for hit/wound/save/inv save. Don't need all, but rather more flexibility, as that reroll 1s to hit was kinda useless against oath targets anyway

Terminators need a buff

'Sustained shits' on incursors sounds miserable 😂

1st company definitely needs a re-write

I agree wholeheartedly with everything regarding Vanguard/Phobos, I love my Raptors 🤘🏻

I think the Anvil Siege Force needs either a strat or an addendum to the army rule that lets units move at up to half their normal speed while still counting as stationary. They have the shooting capacity, but what they need is _some_ mobility.

oh hey, everyone was surprised when they only get nerfs, wow, how cool!

What would help me is to give Vulkan He'stan the ability to ride in an implusor.

What you need in is a "rapid fireing line" strat for Anvil. A battle tacitc that simply counts as "not having moved" so you can have heavy gravis units advance then shoot with the +1 to wound. He'll I just thought of this. How about for all other infantry if all models have an eligible target, they get +1 to wound. This of it as a bunch of marines rushing to a position and setting up a gun line or hard point

So many good ideas here. Shame none of them are going to happen, we’ll just get more point changes…

All bolters across all armies having the same Str 4 ap-1 profile. So Bolters, Bolt Rifles, Bolt Carbines, Etc All become, Range 24", A 2, Str 4, AP -1, D 1 with Heavy/Assault profiles Combi-Bolter/Storm Bolter, Range 24" A 2, Str 4, Ap -1, D 1 with Heavy/Assault/Rapid fire 2 Specialty bolters like those on the Centurions, Land raider crusader, Repulsor Just get max shots out to 24" So Centurions becomes A6, Str 4, Ap -1, D 1, Heavy/Assault/Twin-linked Hurricane bolters become A12 Str 4 Ap -1, D 1, Heavy/Assault/Twin-linked Repulsor, A18, Str 4, Ap -1, Heavy/Assault They all share the same dam ammo.

I would also like to add to the Rievers and also give their knifes sustain hits 2. To be a blender. They're terror troops that not even guard are afraid of....it's quite sad....

What do the Marinaros need ? 1) Weapon upgrades - ranged and melee for every Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain, Chaplain, Librarian - Primaris, Phobos, Gravis - all of them. Master crafted of courss and as for sidearms - Plasma Pistol, Inferno Pistol, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Hand Flamer. Maybe Storm shield should require you to have Power Weapon, but the sidearm should be your choice. At the same point little restriction would be needed - Librarians and Chaplains - Shield + chosen sidearm, as they have their dedicated and staple weapons. Phobos should have an option to chose between Chainsword and Power Weapon + sidearm 2) Bolter weapons of every type min. AP1 By lore, Bolters have diamond-tipped,armour piercing high explosive rounds, easly punching through Marines armour while in game, they're one of the worst infantry weapons avaible... 3) Phobos units - at least a grenade launcher - 1 per 5 models and once per battle free grenade stratagem Why cheaper scouts have Missle Launchers, Heavy Bolters and Sniper Rifles while more expensive and more "elite" or rather commando, that usually are behind enemy lines, units don't is unbelievable silly. 4) Infiltrators - Marksman Carabine gaining Precision As name suggest - for providing precise fire 5) Reivers - Carabine loosing Precision but getting Rapid Fire 1 or 2, Combat Blade getting AP1 or S5, and option to take Carabine with Combat Blade Being able to get close and cover enemy with a hail of bullets before charging sounds like a good tactic for terror troops 6) Incursors - getting ability to plant their mine and remotely detonate it, causing on 4+ 1MW to every model in the 2, maybe 3" radius, Carabines - ignore all to hit modifiers Throwing mine like a grenade is silly, but using it like somewhat Claymore seems more reasonable. 7) Sternguards - their weapon options - meltas, grav guns, plasmas etc. They were fine, for unknown reason they lost their elite status... 8) Terminators - Storm Bolters AP1 or remove Rapid Fire and giving it anty-infantry 4+ devastating wounds. From lore perspective, SB are shreading through most things, so at least anti-infantry wold reflect that. 9) Terminators - again - heavy weapon options - Plasma Cannon, Las Cannon, Multi-melta + buffing Heavy Flamer and Auto Cannon. Usually dropped straight into the fray and against the odds, a CHAPTER'S ELITE should be equipped to be able to deal with anything on the spot. Heavy Flamer should get buff to S6 - like the Sternguard's Pyrecannon has or give it 2d6 hits instead (t's heavy for a reason duh...) Autocannon is designed to rip and tear through infantry so having it anti-infantry keyword would make sense... 10) Terminators - again ain - Weapon skill and Ballistic skill hitting on 2+ and Chainfists on 3+ (maybe someday Combi-weapons hitting 3+ also) They are the best of the best, hand-picked for that to create CHAPTER'S ELITE and their combat abilities should reflect that... 11)Eliminators - Increasing number to at least 5, preferably 6 or giving their weapons 2 attacks 3 is just a wee bit too low number therefore not too useful/reliable. 12)Outriders - Giving them at least a powerful version of Chainsword (like Vanguard Vets have, with S5) or regular Power Weapons - S5 AP2 W1. OR giving them 2d3 MW on charge per model in engage range, like Jump Intercessors. They would be better but not OP with such weapon options and certainly more useful. Alternatively those MW - if an armoured Marine weights around a 1 ton(lore), then a marine + such bike would hit like a Dodge Ram 3500 when charging plus in engage range you'll rarely fit a whole unit of bikes... Lastly, fixing that bloody BLAST keyword. It's incredibly stupid, that it works right now, it reminds me 17th century naval combat - you park side to side, lit the cannons for a broadside salvo, see how many cannons will fire, see how many will hit, see how much damage is being dealth... Or Wile E. Coyote and his ACME shenanigans working as they feel like to... I mean, you don't fire D3 grenades from a grenade launcher, you fire one and it created AoE and that AoE hits not the projectile itself... Blast should be basically a Torrent but with +1 hot every 5 models. The person that created this current abomination never even played with firecrackers, not to mention, throw a real grenade.

Rules and models for Chapter Serfs. Automatic Plasma Grenade Launchers. Deathwatch Stealth Armor. Updated Primaris Techmarines. Chaos Primaris Space Marines. Cyborg Attack Dogs. Cyborg Attack Dog Cavalry. Chief Apothecary models. Chemical Weapons Space Marines / Primaris Destroyers. Updated models for Tyberos the Red Wake and Gabriel Seth.

Imagine if the first company detachment just handed you a feel no pain. And if you used a codex detachment with no secondary marine units, ie no units from dangles or blands or templars, you got old oath back.

I think they need to add somthing to really differentiate Codex Chapters from the Non Codex Chapters. I dont think they should take anything away from the Divergent chapters, rather give stuff to the compliant ones, whether that be an extra buff to Oath for codex compliants as a whole, or something tasteful and fun for each chapter individually (Like Iron Hands getting slightly better vehicles, Salamanders getting slightly better flame weapons, Raven Gaurd getting buffs to Phobos units.) Lean into the lore and give us all somthing small

I’d love to see bolt weapons in general go up to strength 5, and all have at least ap 1

Give me incentive to play codex marines is all I want, or remove non-compliants entirely. Tired of receiving nerfs or nothing because of how non-compliants are performing.

A option for a cheap expendable transport that can transport a 10 man squad, the impulser being stuck at a cap of 6 makes it such a weird option for anything you might want to put in it. Which leaves you with an repulsor for 190 points or for an extra 50 points a far better land raider but now your transport is more important than the troops you are trying to move.

The whole point is to touch as little as possible on the datasheets. People wants to keep using their codexes and cardboard cards. So big changes are unlikely. It is possible to see new detachments. Though perhsps folks would be upset with that as well. The ideas of changing assault terminators as you suggest seems both too good and as a big change tonthe datasheet.

My issue with anvil is that there's so few weapons with natural heavy and many are not great - still barely working at +1 to wound. The list is basically; -scout heavy and sniper -eliminators -eradicators -suppressors -devastators -t shirt cannon guys -heavy laser destroyers -intercessors -hellblasters And that's it.

My thoughts: Oath of Moment should switch to reroll wounds instead of hits Make 1st company more killy with strats rather than more durable. Improve combi-weapons to either a 3+ or 2 shots Give Assault Terminators' weapons That what i can think of off hand

Ger ready to be dissapointed.

If you were going to make the absolutely most shooting focused army you could do, what would it be? Which detachment. No melee units at all. Straight shooting firepower!

I'm pretty sure the reason Impulsors can still only carry Primaris troops is Devastator Squads. Not that I think it's an outrageous combo, but I suspect they were afraid of having Impulsors with 4x las cannons or multi meltas.

When GW dropped Chapter tactics, they killed certain armies like White Scars, Ravenguard, etc... The only thing you get for choosing a Chapter is access to Epic characters. GW stated that 10th Edition Detachments were going to represent all the Codex compliant Chapters so you didn't have to worry about color scheme. Bring back Chapter Tactics for Codex Chapters. Dark Angels despite all the extras, is an awful supplement. A lot of AP -1, especially on the DW Knights. The new Inner Circle Companions feel rushed and unfinished. For example, why does the unit have an Icon Bearer without any rules? The DW Terminators got neutered when GW took away their assault weapons. When taking Space Marine Codex data sheets, the only ones that gain Deathwing are a pirinted list of units, no charactersm, with the exception of the Bladeguard Veterran Ancient and Terminators. Captains and Lts that take the weapon and shield loadout in order to join Bladeguard who do have the Deathwing keyword. Sure the Captain and the Lt will eventually gain Deathwing when they attach to a unit of Bladeguard, but at that point the Captains and the Lt can't take any Inner Circle Enchancements because they gained the Deathwing keyword during deployment. Gain Ravenwing is fine when taking Space Marine Data sheets. the unit either needs to have the mounted keyword or Vehicle,Fly. The problem is that all the Ravenwing Datasheets in the actual Dark Angels supplement have a 5++. However, when using Space Marine Data sheets like the Storm Speeders which will gain Ravenwing, well it doesn't really do that much like it did in 9th. They used to also gain the 5++ and there are no rules attached to the Ravenwing or Deathwing keywords, which is why I think players are constantly using detachments outside their supplement. TIt doesn't help that their unique data sheets are quite weak, Inner CIrcle Companions are a good example. Fragile, while wielding Giant Two handed Swords that have AP -1....the 2 cultist characters in the Dark Commune unit in the CHaos Space Marine list are welding two handed swords which are AP -2 and they are just human mortals... As usual the first 4-5 Codices, when 10th edition launched are showing a different rules writing style. Codices started to get better with the launch of Orks, but what justifies a Codex gaining X number of detachments? Orks started with 8. Is GW going by subfactions? If so, this didnt happen with Necrons. They have 6 Ancient Dynasties from 9th edition that all have a different playstyle. Why didn't they do that like they said they would starting with Space Marines when they said they were ditching subfactions. CHaos Space Marines is another well written COdex. I'm still curious why they also got 8 detachments... while Sisters got 4 and their is some real concern about Sisters being too strong. More Detachments doesn't necessarily mean a Faction is going to outperform, it just nice to have some additional choices. I think we are starting to see some subtle power creep as the edition slowly drudges onwards...

I love the sustained shits for incursors.

I do not like your suggestion to remove the ability to take codex detachments from non-compliant chapters. For example the Dark Angels are *only* held up right now by their ability to use Ironstorm. When they use any of the Dark Angels detachments, their Win Rate drops sharply to even lower than Codex Space Marines, because their unique options certainly do not "reign supreme" over codex units, they are actively harmful to a list with the sole exception of Azreal. It might be hard to do, but GW needs to find a way to balance codex space marines without robbing non-compliant chapter of options, or the problem simply moves to another army.

Non-compliant chapters shouldn't be supplements. They should have been stand alone codexes with their own army rule and detachments, and had army roster tradeoffs of losing access to some or even most core marine units in exchange for having their own unique units.

Centurions with an iron warriors detachment rule would be nice or a 5+ feel no pain or t8 to make them harder to kill. Also feel like sternguard should get their orignal combi weapons back or atleast more special and heavy weapon options

Either decrease some of our units cost or give us a buff. Nothing crazy, like +1 to strength or damage.

The best work I've gotten from Sternguard Vets is when they have a Librarian attached. Still wasn't spectacular though.

Letting divergent chapters use the standard detachments and not differentiating the points cost of standard marine units per divergent chapter was a huge mistake. They can't buff those detachments or units too much or Templars (for instance) get too good. Until they split these up I'm afraid that the non-divergent marines won't ever be great. Also, as a frequent Eldar player, from my perspective your melee is more than fine. If my *melee specialists* fail to kill your regular intercessors (which they will, all being D1) then 3 or 4 basic guys hitting them back with their 3 basic attacks wreak absolute havoc.

the only thing that will fix the sm is to give the divergent chapters their own codex again, and i say this as a sw player. They cant buff terminators for example becouse we and bt are going to have a field day with it, no matter what they do buffing the vanila codex would buff armies doing exeptionally well already. So unless they can nerf/buff units individualy the sm codex will never be good

Yeah so.... we got NONE of this lol

I know it’s just a typo but it stands out to me as I am currently suffering from sustained shits. 😅😢

Did you mean to say that Incursors should have sustained hits on their guns? Because they already have that on their melee weapons. I do agree with you that 1st Company should be tweaked. I play Deathwatch heavily into Terminators, and utilizing more of what makes 1st Company marines what they are would be great.

What they need are actual stat buffs on struggling units, not just points decreases. GW just wants everyone to have a horde army, if your units suck don't worry, they'll make their points so low that maybe they'll be good if you have more of them.

I feel like a lot of the problem is GW seems to be balancing the SM divergent chapters nerfing SM core units and abilities, rather than balancing the divergent chapters by nerfing the divergent specific units. How is it Blood Angels, Space wolves, Black Templars, and Deathwatch can be at 55-59% win rate, while normal SM are down at 44?

Pure White Scars player here. It bugs me sooo much that "the WS" stratagem was designed to be played with space wolves. Still, most SW players bought 12+ thunderwolves to play the detach, so that wouldnt make them happy at all. divergent chapters being able to choose gladius only would be nice, or otherwise give a better oath to vanilla marines (like rerrolls also to hit). And outriders are plainly worse than assault intercessors with jump packs. for 80pts they have more attacks, and mortals on the charge, and loose a small bit of durability, but can go through walls. Outriders should get a +1damage on the charge, and ATVs drop to 50 pts max. Oh! and bring back the captain on bike, and remove the redundancy between strats and the only bike character we have.

I would love to see more ways to farm CP.

Terminators need AP 1 or pistol on the storm bolter imo.

Just went 4-1 at Bristol with wolves (but not wolf jail) (45th if you want to look up the list), honestly the melee datasheets are very bad and the long range firepower is near non-existent. Vehicles are unreliable and crippled by the fact everyone else's damage is balanced around a 4++ that we don't get. Honestly I could go on at serious length about space marines and balance, it's not good and it hasn't been basically since they nerfed oaths.

Outriders sgt with power fist . Sternguard with maybe a plasma rifle Mephiston able to join bladeguard Land raider reedeemer 20 points cheaper

Im just hoping for some playable rules man, DA have been in such a bad spot lately. The only things from our entire codex that aren't outshined by regular SM are Azrael, DW knights and DW termies which are just a 5 point upgrade.

The reason non-compliant chapters have been using SM codex detachments, especially Dark Angels, their codex detachments suck. Dark Angels detachments are the worst in every way. Unforgiven is based on a useless game mechanic. Company of Hunters, encourages you to play with underpowered mounted units in every way. Inner circle, although gimmicky with termis just falls flat with the vow objective and should confer bonuses for army while holding the objective

storm bolters need a buff and terminators should be T6 or T7

Someone beat me to this But we ned more lieutenants We seriously just dont have enough Centurion lieutenant Lieutenant with jump pack Lieutenant in terminator armour Lieutenant on bike

Surprised Deathwatch don't get more mentions in how bad they're doing

I feel like we desperately need damage 3 melee options as well as a couple more options for anti tank infantry

17:13 big fan of Sustained Shits.

Dark Angels are doing worse (ultramarine characters pull up the space Marines more than the dark angels') I'd rather be locked out of the detachments from codex Space Marines and have good detachments of the 3 in the DA codex. At the very least put a points tax on the detachments that way Codex Space Marines players are penalized for divergent chapters exploiting certain detachments with their own units. It would make balancing easier.

I don't even feel it's salvageable at this point. I've just kinda put my Crimson Fists on the shelf and am focussing on other projects, quite possibly for the duration of 10th Edition. I dislike so many of the over-arching rules changes, and then Marines just get... well, datasheet bloat, units no one ever asked for (Reivers. It's true, everyone knows its true), bolters are shite for no good reason, transport restrictions are shite for no reason, Combi Weapons are Absolute Mega Shite... Bleh.

Melee AP is mostly worthless as other armies are getting AoC. Space Marine has way to many ap-1 weapons.

If you're going to make non-compliant chapters have no access to the detachments from the compliant chapters, you have to fix the non-compliant chapters FIRST. Face it, most chapters are kind of in a weird place. Space wolves are effectively a meme list, the Dark Angels hold their own codex in contempt, Deathwatch are forgotten by everyone. It's a big fat mess for everyone. Well, most everyone. The dudes with funny haircuts are holding their breath hoping they don't get hit with the nerf hammer too hard.

With the Anvil Siegeforce I think +1 to wound on everything is way too strong. And then you have madmen flooding the field with cheap scout units or something and giving them all +1 to wound. But I think way to get the benefits of staying station when you move would be very nice. Like if you move to an objective for a command point you can count as stationary for one turn would be a big help and not too unbalanced.

Phobos terminators...

The emperor protects

Great video with so many good ideas! I think that joining different chapters to one task force will be good idea. Some characters are not bad but also not great and together with others will be more playable

I have to disagree with a lot of stuff you say in the video. I don't think SM are as bad as the database says they are, I say, as someone who plays against SM a lot, I have very close games about a 5-10 point gap. I say their more in line as a 45-50% win rated, and i know SM has a lot of people playing it, but player skill can drastically change the numbers. When it comes to chapter VS core, you are never going to have good internal balances. Chapters need to have one of two things done with them they need to be their own army rules and work like cult marines or have them removed from the game because it was a nightmare back in 9th when trying to balance blood angles and SM but can't because all their uints overlap in codxes. I will say this the detachments are not as bad as they could have been but yes they need to be looked at but they can wight other armys need help more looking at you AD Mech. When it comes to melee buffs i think they don't need much I play CSM and power fist get the job done nicely with chain swords. I think it's has more to do with the fact that SM lending into a more gun line playsuit then a melee one its like AD Mexh ya they have melee but it's more your here for the master chief then the human.

No point increases! That's a definite start ffs

I completely forget that codex SM exists (I play BA). Melee in the current codex feels nonexistent without the +2S and +1A on charges. Outriders are hilariously sad. I agree that non-compliant chapters should only be able to run their detachments. Better for balance, and it's hard to tell what ACTUALLY needs help because you'll have Space Wolves running Stormlance which boosts it's stats, or Templars running Ironstorm, etc.

they arent gonna take toys away from marines so codex complaint will be worse all edition even if its actually fine

I just want my WS biker list to not be legend

DO NOT NERF NON CODEX CHAPTERS just buff codex space marines for example dark angels are so bad rights now the only da codex thing that's competitive is azrial

totally agree there needs to be a separation between codex-compliant and non-compliant or at least when they get their own codex. Another change that don't just apply to space marines but all characters is to remove the only leading a unit ability requirement as once the character is alone they are just stats for the most part. As for battle shock, space marines don't have enough components to bother chasing that mechanic unless battle shock changes such as battle shock falling off after primary points are scored but this would make factions that do care about battle shock far better than they are right now. I like your ideas for the 1st company detachment as for being a very veteran detachment currently feels very weak.

Non-codex losing access to codex detachments: absolutely not, they are still space marines but with slight deviations/flavors but they still try to fight along the same combat doctrine (with BTs as an exception)

I don’t want space marines at the top of the meta. That’s just bad for the hobby. We need some very small deliberate points adjustments. They’re still figuring out non codex compliant chapters clearly, but I would prefer that marines not be outshined by any one chapter. Again, bad for the hobby.

Man, if Judiciars could join with other characters, that would be amazing. Also let Judiciars join more squads wouod be nice too.

you had me until you said no more other detachments. Dark angles detachments are TRASH!!!! if they fixed terminator to not suck then inner circle would be ok....what codex space marines needs is a generic chapter master for 80 points with chapter master enhancements that you pay for.... give people a list of the coolest abilities and allow them to pick for the price? that would be cool

SM Crusade rules are also super bland and boring... 😑

Desolations need help too, and the impulsor!!! transport 6 should be transport 7! and get rid of the castellen launchers from the desolations, give them the aility to fire either the superfrag or superkrak, and lower their points down to 120 or 135 points, the Eldar has a unit exactly like this, so let the space marines have a unit like it. Suppressors need to have their ability reworked slightly, either give them Damage 3 or Ap -2, and make it so that their ability affects all units that they hit, not just a pick one.

Gw hate us codex sm player dammit.