Thanks to Ben, i ve bought aces, indys, thunders, and now ventures kkkk im not good at skating but enjoy my truck and deck experiment!! My fun in skateboarding
This is great, it’s not all about ability and I say if you enjoy that side of skating then embrace it, just as people like different styles like street/vert/freestyle 👍
I'm not hating on your passion as I have gone through some setup madness myself but I can tell you that your progression will suffer just a bit when you change your setup so often. Sounds like you're having a good time though and that's all that really matters.
Finally got independent standard, and looking forward to try it in spring. Before that enjoyed my thunders hollow light and titanium. Curious how will i like the weight of an indy :)
Ok, so I’m an engineer who’s been skating since 87 so what I’m saying comes from a place of understanding what’s going on here. To understand it better don’t look at the truck with the hanger pointing up, turn it the way round it actually is when you’re skating it, with the hanger to the ground. When a truck is turning two things are constant: the hanger is parallel to the surface you’re riding on, and the baseplate is oriented in the direction you’re riding. When you lean to one side the base plate tilts on a fulcrum made up of an invisible line between the inside of the pivot cup and where the bottom bushing meets the hanger. Measure the angle between those two and you’ve got a true indication of what’s turning on your truck. Because the position of the base plate is fixed relative to your board, tilting the base plate by leaning forces the angle of the wheels to change. The angle of the pivot cup/bottom bushing changes how much a certain angle of tilt on the base plate translates into changing the angle of your hanger and wheels on the plane of the riding surface. If you had pivot cup/bottom bushing angle that was parallel with the bottom of your baseplate then the truck could move back and forth without changing the angle of the wheels, so you could get wheel bite without turning, that’s not what you want. The other extreme would be if the angle was really steep, which would mean that a small lean of the baseplate would translate to a huge amount of turn, that would result in really twitchy trucks that would also be really hard to turn, because you would be using a really small lever to try to move it. Finding the sweet spot where the right amount of lean translates to the right amount of turn is the science behind truck turning, and it’s also complicated by the fact that as you turn your bushings compress, which changes the angle slightly. Your kingpin angle relative to the fulcrum angle changes how progressively the bushings compress also, so if this angle is greater the resistance will increase the more you turn. Conical vs cylindrical bottom bushings also effect this. You can play around a bit with changing the fulcrum angle by changing the height of your bottom bushings or adding or removing washers from underneath them, but this can mess up other things in the geometry like the angle the hanger sits in the pivot cup. This is why indy pivot cups click until they’re broken in when you swap the bushings out for bones ones. There’s also where your wheels are positioned relative to the fulcrum which changes the way trucks turn, which is one (but not the only) reason why different width trucks with the same baseplate geometry feel like they turn different. On top of all that if the axles are closer in together the same hanger angle describes an arc with a smaller radius, ie a sharper turn. Anyway I hope anyone who’s gotten this far in has learnt some things about truck geometry and sorry about the essay. In case you’re wondering, no I don’t post on slap and no I don’t have truck madness any more, ace classic 55s suit how I skate pretty perfectly.
very interesting! the angle of the imaginary line is something I had not realized is necessary to making the axel turn when it tilts. One thing I would say is that if this angle was parallel to the board you would actually not get wheel bite without turning, it just wouldn't go down that far because without the hanger rotating in the pivot cup it will not be able to tilt (with little leeway for bushing and pivot cup urethane compression). The imaginary line you described affects how much torque there is on the tilt, but the axel height ultimately determines how much tilt is possible before wheel bite. The more the axel tilts, the more it turns and the sharper the turning radius, and because a higher axel can tilt more it can therefore turn more - so a higher axel will increase your sharpest turning angle before wheel bite.
A truck's hanger makes contact at 2 places: in the pivot cup and on the bottom bushing. If you affect the height of your bottom bushing, you're affecting your truck's geometry - with a shorter bottom bushing you're lowering the axel height and shortening the wheel base. Let's say you get a bushing that's 3 mm shorter, it will lower your axel height by about 2mm and shorten your wheelbase by about 1mm (although the exact proportion of wheelbase/height affect depends on the king pin angle). A higher axel obviously reduces wheel bite, but in doing so it also allows to get a sharper turning radius be. Basically an axel is connected to 2 points, so it can't turn without tilting. The more a truck tilts (relative to the board), the sharper the axel turns (relative to the inside bolts), and a higher axel can tilt more before wheel biting, therefore it can get a sharper turn before wheel biting. A higher axel allows your axel to reach a sharper angle. When your skateboard turns, one axel turns one direction and the other axel turns the other direction. The amount that your skateboard turns is dependent on how much the axel turns, and how close the axels are together (aka the wheelbase). ̶T̶h̶e̶r̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶2̶ ̶m̶o̶s̶t̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶o̶r̶t̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶g̶e̶o̶m̶e̶t̶r̶y̶ ̶f̶a̶c̶t̶o̶r̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶u̶r̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶r̶u̶c̶k̶ ̶h̶e̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶e̶l̶ ̶b̶a̶s̶e̶. (edit: this was incorrect... it's actually the following: wheelbase because it affects turning radius, spindle angle *explained below* because it changes how much your axels turn, and axel height because it affects how close your truck can get to maximum turn before wheel bite). I believe king pin angle is irrelevant, other than what affect it might have on truck height or wheel base. Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk. edit: After reading a bunch more comments I can say that I was missing a big part of the picture. The tilting and turning I described above still makes sense, but it is directly dictated by an element that I missed, and that is the angle of the the line from the pivot cup to the axel, which I am calling the spindle angle. I'm going to try to keep this as brief as I can, but it's going to inevitably be longwinded, but stick with me and it will all make sense. Imagine a weathervane, T-shaped - it has a piece that rotates on a horizontal plane, and the piece that is orthogonal to that, going downwards, that we will call the spindle. The spinning piece describes the shape of a circle on a horizontal plane. Imagine a cylinder made from that circle. Imagine slicing through the cylinder on an angle, not perfectly straight, like cutting a hot dog on an angle. This angled cross section forms an ellipse. The hanger of your truck is like the weathervane. The axel's rotates on a horizontal plane that is orthogonal to the spindle (the line from the pivot cup to the hanger). Imagine your truck being able to spin full circles in the pivot cup, and then imagine the cylinder created from that circle. That cylinder does not go straight up and down into the ground, it goes at an angle and the cross section it makes forms an ellipse. Your wheels will stay on that ellipse. A longer ellipse means your axel does not turn as much to stay on that ellipse. The more angled your spindle angle is, the longer our ellipse becomes, and the longer our ellipse becomes the quicker your turn becomes. If your spindle angle was 45 degrees (which would be extreme, not a realistic one just easy for math) if the spindle rotated 90 degrees it would translate to the skateboard's axels turning 90 degrees (aside from being extreme this would be impossible because of wheel bite, and the kingpin and bushing would have to be special designed to not bind at these angles, actual hangers would bind at that point before being able to turn that much). You can adjust your spindle angle on your trucks by changing the height of your bottom bushing, this will make you turn sharper and wheel bite faster. Another thing is that the angle of the spindle will change how your downward force is translated into spindle rotation. To cause a spindle to rotate there needs to be a net force perpendicular to the axis of rotation. When we lean on our boards, we are putting gravity's downward pressure onto the weathervane. If a spindle was vertical, a downward force is not perpendicular to the axis of rotation, so it would not cause the spindle to rotate. If the spindle was horizontal, a downward force is perpendicular and can cause the spindle to rotate. If the spindle is somewhere in between vertical and horizontal and a downward force is applied, some of the force is perpendicular and some of it is not, and the closer to horizontal the spindle is the more of the downward force is perpendicular to the rotational axis. So if your spindle angle is closer to horizontal it will take less leaning force to reach the board's maximum turn, but that maximum turn would describe a wider radius. If the spindle is closer to vertical it will require more lean to cause the axel to turn but it will describe a tighter turning radius. Thanks you for coming to my hotdog Ted Degros Talk edit: I've learned more and I'm pretty sure this was all wrong. The rotational axis goes from the pivot cup to the top bushing. Confirmed by location of wheel bite marks matching with that rotational axis, plus some other logical deduction. Pretty much everything I said in my comment needs to be corrected accordingly, but I'm not gonna do that cuz I'm lazy.
Ted degro talk Thanks for the insight now I know how to lower my Indy’s, too tall stock for me I need them just a little lower and wondered how come my friends Indy’s looked and felt lower and turns out it’s what you mentioned, that bottom bushing
@@eVerProductions1 Standard Indy is 55 mm tall Hollow forged baseplate lowers the same hanger by 1.5 mm, so makes the Indy truck 53.5 mm tall Mid Indy is 52 mm tall, but the lower hanger can also be mix and matched with anything else, eg Mid hanger on hollow forged baseplate is 50.5 mm tall. If you are on Indy Standard trucks, you could just try the forged baseplate option to have a lower truck that still performs in the same way a normal Indy does. After those options, then you can adjust bushings, but the trucks really do work best with as close to normal height bottom bushing (12 mm), but you can always try a doubled top bushing ride without having to cut any down - use two top bushings in each truck. A lot of people who ride wobbly loose trucks just take out the bottom washer, but if you prefer a normal ride, I would not recommend this option, but it is fun to experiment with some things like that too. *** Sorry if you already knew all that. Being a "skate shop guy" and messing around with everything to see what works and how things skate is what I do, not so much engineering or scientific facts.
First you say about "A truck's hanger makes contact at 2 places: in the pivot cup and on the bottom bushing.". Lets make a line from this two points and call it "line1". Then you say about "the line from the pivot cup to the axel". Lets call it line2. I guess the line1 angle affects the "tilt of the truck -- turn angle of the truck" dependence, not second one. I didn't understand all parts of you story but you say: "the axel's rotates on a horizontal plane that is orthogonal to the spindle (the line from the pivot cup to the hanger)". I disagree: any part of you truck (no matter axels or what) rotates on the plane, orthogonal to axes of rotation. Axes of rotation is determined by two points which stay still (not moving). One of this points is in the middle of the pivot cup, and another is somewhere between two bushings. Exactly line1 which you desribed.
@@markbrimo9680 but theres no forged baseplates available, that's why i was thinking of lowering the standard baseplate on cnc about 1,5mm , do you think it will work the same?
Thunders just feel the best to me these days. I haven’t noticed the issue people mention about the shorter base plate affecting nose or tailslides. Maybe its just because I always wax the side of the ledge, but I rarely stick from the wheel contact. Also, the pinch for crooked grinds just feel fantastic with Thunders.
Great to see you making new content Ben. Hope the knee is healing well. Been so bummed as of late. Having a flare up with some disc issues in my back and had t been on my board for weeks. Driving me nuts.
Hey Ben, I have actually been researching this topic a bit as well. From what I have gathered hanger shape affects truck responsiveness and stability quite a bit. Less truss equals less stability and vice versa, ace’s quick squirrelly turn vs venture’s having more lean and less turn for example I have a set of Indy with the “T” hanger shape and they are super responsive and turny, dramatically different feel than the current design Furthermore, I have seen pictures online where people have modified the truss of specific trucks and it changes how they feel. I would be very interested to see a video on this from you if you are willing to modify a truck for science.
Definitely helpful to understand how all of these things work. Grabbing a new board off the rack is always a stressful situation since you can never truly know how it'll work with your trucks until it's gripped and bolted on
A couple more things you might be able to measure... the angle of the pivot cup cavity. Remove the pivot cup. Take a wooden dowel, or a shank of a big drill bit or best/proper would be the right size gauge pin that is a snug fit in the hole and then measure the angle like you did the kingpin. Maybe measure the angle of the base of the kingpin and compare that against pivot cup. Embedded in that would be an assumption that the plane of the hanger that the bushings touch is parallel with that surface. Could try to measure the angle between the hanger's bushing surface and it's wang axis. Assume both sides of bushing surface are parallel and clamp it to your datum/level table top. Then would have to visualize the wang angle. I think there is some kind of complicated interaction going on where the truck can tilt for a bit before it starts to bind up in the pivot cup and then it had to twist to keep going. On Indys I think the response is very progressive in that it turns one way for like 80% of the travel, and then the last little bit it turns like a maniac, tighter turning radius than any other truck. A transition from tilting to cocked tilting might explain that behavior.
The angle of the pivot cup doesn’t matter, it’s the angle of the line between the two points the hanger pivots on that’s important, the pivot cup and the bottom bushing/hanger interface point. I outlined it fairly extensively in my post below, give that a read. 👍🏻
It's not necessary to measure the pivot cup angle to figure out the pivot cup angle, you can use trigonometry to figure it out if you have enough of the other measurements. You don't even have to remember trigonometry, you can just google triangle calculator - you just plug in your values and it can figure out the rest of them (of course you have to have a certain number of known values to complete the rest of them).
The video suggested by @Andrew Berg above has a great explanation. If you watch it from the beginning it will help you understand truck geometry immensely. The turn radius is directly related to pivot angle. All the other stuff (axle height, axle placement, bushing height, etc.) affects how the truck executes the turn (more dive, more lean, more stable, etc). It's easier to understand pivot angle on rkp trucks because the angle of the kingpin determines the pivot angle. It's a little more complicated with tkp trucks, but when you see how the pivot angle is measured it's easier to understand turn radius.
Actually it’s the pivot angle that affects the turning of a truck, i.e. turn vs. lean, not the kingpin angle. Lower pivot angle = more lean, higher angle = more turn. Different height of bushings directly affect the pivot angle.
After all said, I slapped a thunder 151 hollow hanger on indy stage 10 low standard baseplate. Shortened the wheelbase spec of thunder with the Indy baseplate and shedded some overall weight with a hollow thunder axel. Best of both worlds now
Hey Ben, thanks again for more genius insights to be able to craft goldilock setups. Could you do a vid on Lurpivs as well? I just got mine and theyve been awesome! Keep up the great vids dad
Nice one Ben! You need to consider the angle in between the kingpin and the pivot cup on the truck base. It is right there in front of you every time you lift up the truck and look through the hole between the base plate and the hangar! This relationship is crucial and absolutely does not work on gullwings!. Also, the hole in the hanger is often bigger than the kingpin and this can allow a couple of degrees movement in all directions, especially if you ride lose trucks. And of course, wheelbase counts, but not all trucks work with all wheelbases, in my opinion.
Love your content Ben! I know you’re tired of truck reviews, but you should give Lurpiv’s a try. I wasn’t expecting much but they have become my favorite trucks. I don’t ever feel like going back to Ace’s, or any other truck for that matter.
Venture uses the same baseplate and bushings for both low and hi trucks. I had a an issue recently with the after market green bushings that venture sells that are for looser trucks. I found that the hanger would move side to side from the larger amount of space it gives where the top bushing sits. I figured that this issue is due to a smaller circumference of the bushing design . Which I found dangerous because when bombing on a side walk with big cracks you can feel the truck all the sudden changing in both directions of turn, like car with a bad wheel alignment . So I put the stocks back in and seems to be good now. Super unique problem, never had to deal with something like this
I put bones bushings on my ace trucks and I had a lot of king pin thread sticking out. I ended up cutting 3-4 threads off and then realized that there wasn’t much threads left. I was going to swap the kingpins from my Indy trucks but I gave up after not being able to knock the kingpin out. I then used my tap/die set to add a few threads to the kingpin. The bones bushings are shorter than the ace bushings.
There's another video around about pivot angle being the determining factor on the ratio of lean to turn. On a traditional truck it's the angle between the pivot cup and the point where the yoke crosses the kingpin. Easier to see in a reverse kingpin setup because then it is the angle of the kingpin itself. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jgp8L2TCOZo.html
Hey Ben, there's this guy on RU-vid called "whythetrick" that uses a CAD program to explain the physics of tricks. Maybe you guys could collaborate on a truck geometry video !
I was thinking the same . Whatthetrick has helped me understand many of my many problems 😆 I can't wait for the weather ☁️ ☔ 🌨️ to improve so I can get out and skate again !
In my youth I never considered these points about trucks. Thanks to your awareness, I can no longer look at trucks as a simple component that connects the board to wheels! 😄 So many factors are involved as you say. There's also dynamic loads that would add another dimension...like bushing wear/compression (both static and loaded). 😵
Fueling the madness. I have ventures, grind kings, krux, tensors and fury. I need some thunders but I an digging the ventures. I miss the OLD krux downlows from the mid 2000s I grew up tight trucks but didnt realize why I hated indy other than weight. made the board to turn-eeeee
Could the difference between Venture & thunder have something to do with the construction of the hanger? Specifically, the way the hangar connects to the kingpin. Differences in the shape there might change geometry of either component individually
Gotta factor in the distance between the pivot cups, and the kingpin ( as it relates to the way it affects the hangar placement and angle ). Considering that the kingpin angle of both the thunders and ventures are the same, yet ventures have a way less sharp, and more squatty turn I would believe that this is due to the fact that venture baseplate are longer; the extended space between the pivot cup and the kingpin results in a lower sitting hangar with less outward cant angle which is also corroborated by the shorter bottom bushing. Conversely, with thunder having a quite small baseplate and closer pivot cup ( along with a taller bottom bushing ) there's a tighter relationship between the kingpin and pivot location of the hanger. As that relates to the pressure applied by your feet: with thunders your effectively applying pressure right over the pivot area of your hanger, resulting in a more responsive turn, and on the dramatic side, an easier wheel bite result ( even though their specific geometry creates a very canted hanger, making the truck turn very inward and outward, compared to an ace, which has a very straight back and forth turn ). With ventures, that distance between the kingpin and the baseplate effectively displaces pressure applied by your feet which would delay turn response, creating a truck with a very open wheelbase, dramatic pinch response due to the canted hanger angle from the 20 degree kingpin, yet maintaining a squatty rather slow turn angle. With Indys and ace, considering that the kingpin has very little angle, the pressure applied by your feet is directly over the hanger resulting in responsive turns, yet what differs is that the enegery displacement is directly over the pivot cup area as well, the hangers aren't canted by any kingpin angle so the hangers don't cut inward or outward ( relative to your stance and direction of turn ). This is my understanding of it and I'm sure it makes 0 sense lol.
I study mechanical engineering , you forgot the most important angle, that angle on the pivot cup, that middle part of the hanger . So the more that angle is close to 90 degrees the more the truck will turn, and the more it's close to 0 the more the truck will wheel bite without almost even turning. It's mechanical engineering 101. Hey must be nice if I could find a job at a skateboard trucks company. Thank ben You're the best
Lot of engineers here, cool. I did computer engineering, and the way I look at it, what you want to do is help your nervous system optimize the compensation it needs to acquire to control the board with maximum stability margins, subject to the performance requirements. There's been a lot of progress in the math behind how computers can be programmed to do this,but of course the human nervous system is just an analog biochemical computer, and the nature of the math is the same no matter what the computer is made of ... In other words, a truck that might appear difficult might actually be easy to learn for a human depending on the control problem it (we) have to solve (and this applies to 'muscle memory' too I think)
The angle you have to measure is the one formed by the horizontal with the axis of rotation. The axis of rotation is formed by aligning the pivot with the center of the rubber seat. Then you could measure the distance between the axis of rotation and the axis of the wheels, most of the time they are not aligned. Finally, the rubbers provide the return to center and influence the turn because they move the seat of the rubbers.
Was wondering if the angle of the pivot from the hanger in relation to the kingpin is different from truck to truck? Wouldn't this affect the turn of the trucks too?
This kinda blew my mind. 20 Years ago I bought Indy’s because that’s just what you did … now relearning with my son… riding similar board with ventures vs some lowish thunder .. and same size wheels…. The difference is huge…. The turning , and because Mu body is getting used to it all over, I have easier time popping with the thunders then the venture (also using short wheelbase boards cause I’m short
You Missed the most important one.. the Pivot Angle.. the steeper that is, the more turn per lean you get.. that is why a Longboard rear truck sometimes has a Horizontal pivot. Bushing sizes will have a small effect on turning The most important figure of how a truck turns is the angle from the Pivot cup to the Yoke..
This is a really interesting topic.. I'm just getting started and I bought this surf skate adapter which contrary to their advertising, turns out it doesn't fit every truck mounting pattern... so I' need trucks that will fit the adapter (I think its the narrower mounting footprint) , any suggestions as to what type would work (Im thinking it probably doesnt matter as much), or where I could buy some (possibly used) trucks to try this out?
The term ur looking for is “acute” in reference to angles < 90°. but u can look at it as obtuse if u turn the kingpin the other way or measure the angle from the other side, if that makes sense.
I think the venture turn is because of the top spacers on the bushing hits the metal on ventures really bad thats why they dont max out as easily when new 🤔
Truck nerd chiming in. Kingpin angle does not have any real effect on the turn to lean ratio. It will change how that lean feels because the bushings will be compressed slightly differently. If you want to measure turn, you need to look at the angle of the turning axis, which is an imaginary line that goes from the pivot cup to the centre of the bushing seat. Lower angle turning axis means less turny, higher angle means more turning. Example of high angle tkp would be a Bennett truck. It is a really fun experiment to place wedges under your trucks to change this angle, it drastically changes how they turn, and should give you a better understanding of what is going on. But it will mess up your pop, because the height of your deck will change. Basically wheelbase, angle of turning axis, and rake (which is much trickier to understand) will determine your turn. Axle height will be really important for pop, not so much for turning (other than being able to lean farther before getting wheel bite). You provide a lot of insight into skating for this downhill longboarder. Hopefully I helped a little.
I can get very nerdy about reading/watching/studying gear specs just for 'fun". But all that, in my opinion, doesn't make me any better (or have more fun) at skating. I prefer to skate more (and conquer my fears at some stuff) than trying all the gear in the wolrd. But I'm guilty of having more sets of wheels than boards(2). Great video Ben. 👍 (4 truck reviews in one!)
I think it’s productive to look into the finer details of your stuff so you can find something that works the best for you and stick with it so you can always feel comfortable on your set up
I've figured out that Independent are industry standard and jack of all trades. Thunders are better for skateparks (not as meaty but locks well) , Ace are good for bowls (turns the most and very responsively), Ventures for gaps and stairs (very stable and don't turn as much) , Tensor for kids and older skateboarders (very lightweight, slide well), Slappys for curbs (meaty and heavy), Mini Logo the best overall budget option for beginners - low trucks which height can be easily adjusted with riser pads. Avenue trucks might be the best for rought streets and cruising.
Do a video with your brother Ben, also you could make a react of his part on North, we have spoke about that on Instagram some time ago Keep on pushing !
I believe ACE AF1's are closer to the INDY's wheelbase wise, so a bit wider than the ACE Classics. You should check them out one day (or not 😄) love mine!
I would say it is not only about the bushings as well but also about the baseplate and how the kingpin sits in there. Of course kingpins are normed but you can obviously see that on an ace truck the king pin sticks out longer than on a venture. Because of that the bushings are different. But more important the hanger sits in a different way on the baseplate. It is acutally way to complicated to explain the geometry of trucks
Whats intersting to me is the pivot axis and if a trucks axis from the middle of bushing seat to the tip of the pivot cup is 0 or 90 it wont turn at all and breaks the stystem. And one thing about my journey trying to design the utc trucks is that for rkps (longboard trucks) are way easier to design bc the pivot is inline with the pivot axis & a direct relationship with the axel for tkps (normal skate trucks) the pivot axis is a floating line you cant really see… lol
Now measure the slope of the truck nipple part that goes into the pivot cup maybe that and the combination of the steepness somehow affects turn on trucks, I guess what I’m trying to say is to measure the pivot cup angle in relation to the kingpin
I think measuring the *real* wheelbase would be preferable because that's way more indicative of board's behavior, what's currently being called "wheelbase" is of course still very important but it should have a different name like "truck spread" or sth. Similarly, truck width and height measurements should seriously be standardized. This way you could easily build a calculator that given one's preferred real wheelbase, board height (distance from the middle of the axle to the extension of the top of truck's mount plane) and wheel size, could suggest appropriate part measurements and the other way around. I guess this is also doable if instead of providing the real wheelbase, we provide the kingpin angle. If anyone knows if this sort of tool already exists, let me know, otherwise I'll think about writing one myself cause I'd be kinda cool to have sth like this (tho i suspect it'd be hard af given the current mess and different ways to measure things depending on the brand)
To me it's not so much about the turn but how comfortable I feel grinding a round rail depending on the truck. Idk why but I feel more stable holding a pinch on a rail with thunder 151🤷♂️
