In case anyone is wondering the reason that Siegfried's wife Kriemhild isn't an avenger is because at the end of her quest for revenge she found that Siegfried had willing given up his own life. So she became a berserker.
Ironically, this explanation is why The Count of Monte Cristo refuses to go by the name Edmond Dantès. Dantès could and did let go of his hatred. The Count can't and he knows it. He knows he is stuck in this cycle of vengeance with no way out, unlike Dantès, never like Dantès, so he leaves the name behind to move forward.
I just realized that one of the Count's Noble Phantasms allows his to escape from almost anything. Oh the irony that he can't escape the avenger mind set.
What made Jalter so beloved was that she outgrew her origins as an embodiment of Gilles' desire for revenge against France for letting OG Jeanne be executed. Sure, she started off being this angry living weapon hell-bent on destroying the country, but her becoming an ally (and later a friend) to Chaldea (and probably a lover to Fujimaru) let her grow past it and become her own person with her own drive to live, as short her life would be given her circumstances. Which is why her having to leave Fujimaru (and by extension, us players) is one hell of a tear-jerker. We're not simply letting go of the dangerous weapon of mass destruction that she is (and honestly, she still is a walking WMD, being the strongest unit in the game ATK-wise), but we're saying goodbye to a genuine friend who has been with us over the years, not knowing what fate would befall her and the other LINK LOST Avengers while we soldier on to finish the Ordeal Stall mini-arc and finally have a showdown with CHALDEAS.
Berserker’s aren’t inherently mindless; there is a method to the madness so to speak. To begin with the incantation to summon berserker’s is a modification (madness enhancement) which can be controlled with the goal of making a weaker servant stronger at the cost of there sanity, but some servants like Heracles don’t need to be strengthened so it could be left lower. Others type of madness could make it where their rational except for when a person or concept comes in mind such as penth(Achilles) or vlad( through embracing the roll of Dracula). So it’s a case by case basis sort of thing. There are also some like herc where skills negate aspects of madness or the effects outright.
It all depends on their Madness Enhancement that influences their personality, probably in normal settings outside of battle they would be rational but depending on their opponent: they could go full berserker. Like… if Berserker Morgan saw Saber Artoria: prepare for a mass funeral and a lame gas leak explosion story by the church.
@@thebakalord Why? Berserker Morgan is from the lostbelt, she has never met Artoria Pendragon before coming to Chaldea, and her voice line is more annoyed than bloodthirsty.
@@Peashooter521 I was talking about if they were in a Holy Grail War, hence the lame excuse of the Church part, if they were against each other Morgan, who is influenced by her PHH self, would definitely do a lot of damage if she wanted.
If I remember correctly, officially Angra described as Avenger who "Born from hatred but speaks of love, so I see Avengers that are still in Chaldea as the examples of this type. Even though he was created from the madness of villagers, tortured and turned basically in a living curse, he forgave humans and was able to show empathy for people like Bazett and Caren. Though he was created from hatred but achieved love. Marie Antoinette Alter also can be considered like this. An emotion of hatred and grief that Marie was unable to express during life takes the form of Alter. If during life she was acting cheerful but hided all negative inside, Alter expresses all negative outside hiding positive inside. Basically born from hatred. And even though, she is still able to express carrying for others (Such as her intersections with Mozart, Baobhan Sith, etc.). In conclusion I think that this means that those who are close to the original Avenger archetype are those who left. And I think that will play the role in returning Avengers, especially for Jalter
Ah yes, the ol' Avenger Boudica joke from waaaay back in Summer 2. Would've been cool to see a Boudica that's closer to her historical self: someone REALLY angry at the Romans.
Nitocris is an interesting case for her Avenger class Version because even though her story and legend would make you think the class is a part of her saint graph it actually isn't possible for her to become the class naturally. The class was actually fused into her saint graph during the events of the 7th Lostbelt
About the LINK LOST Avengers, they are simply the ones collected throughout the main story (minus Marie, whom we technically haven't summoned anyway), and the link is lost for the reason you discussed: their purpose had expired, their hatred is only going to be a burden for Chaldea. I don't think it would make sense to get new story-relevant Avengers from now on. Which is fine; it really feels like we are getting close to a proper conclusion! I think Rulers will meet a similar fate when OC3 comes. That said, I'm still confused about Alter Egos (barring the S5): from what I understood, most Servants are multifaceted and the Class is one of these facets, isolated and strengthened? The part I still haven't find full resolve on yet, is why it was one of the ordeals ("proving their purpose and finding why they are not needed")
And... there goes my hopes for an Avenger Boudica (unless she's made into a joke character instead). What's saddening, tbh, is Jalter's removal from the story from this point. More specifically her swimsuit Berserker version. Post-OC2 summer events will no longer feel complete without her.
The ordeals are a way for us to justify the purpose of the extra classes in the Human Order and our personal use of them. The Alter Ego's purpose is to showcase aspects of a Hero usually masked by their main Saint Graph... Which can also appear in the standard classes, so they get saved by that grace. The Avengers however can *only* be Avengers for their traits to manifest. Their purpose is so the Human Order doesn't forget the sins of humanity itself. However, that doesn't justify personal use, so they must leave.
The first avenger took the berserker slot in the holy grail war. Seeing as vengeance, rage and madness are all closely liked and it filling in for the class most associated with madness enhancement it don’t sound out of place to me. Avengers are basically angrier berserkers anyway with a lot of characters making sense being put in either class.
@@seaver3973 That association doesn't hold up imo, in the Apocrypha branch they summoned a Ruler instead of Avenger. Is there any correlation to Rulers and going mad?
@@SilverYPheonix First off I’ll preface this by saying that all what I said was in the context of the original time line, given that different authors build onto the lore with alternate time lines, classes and games naturally things can start contradicting itself later on. With that said here’s my stab on it; First off the ruler class is made to be a referee to enforce the rules of the holy grail war. There only meant to be summoned when the grail notices something wrong. In the apocrypha timeline they summon amakusa shirou, who has the qualifications to be a avenger ( given his story he’s probably more suited to be one )so it could have been that the grail interfered because it noticed something wrong in this timeline and altered his saintgraph when he was being summoned. Now as for rulers as a class being linked to madness I can’t really say there’s inherent connection. the only cases that come to mind would be Karl (Charlemagne), amakusa and shi huang di being more of a stretch; who all end up trying to assimilate humanity in a way. {as a bounus BB is the ruler of the moon and she’s a bit of a nutcase} If we’re talking about actual people who ruled there are plenty of cases absolute power corrupts absolutely. But then you also have cases where they ended up becoming unhinged from having a bit too mutch lead (Rome) or they where just purely mentally ill like Elizabeth. Ultimately the likely answer is just that the reason it contradicts is because the author wanted to do something different and made their new class( ruler) as a center piece of their story. Hopefully you found my rambling to stitch things together at least somewhat interesting/entertaining.
@@seaver3973 Well... Your wall of paragraphs was certainly funny if anything lmao. I'm glad Fate makes you inspired, I'm passionate about it as well but you're inflating the meaning behind simple design choices. Avenger took the Berserker slot because it's the wildcard class in the narrative, anything else is purely flavor.
@@SilverYPheonix yes, I agree with you. Most of it was just me having fun putting things together. That said, I still personally think that there is a connection between the avenger and berserker class. Im not about to claim that as absolute fact as I don’t have a direct quote of the mushroom man himself saying such; but I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he would’ve put thought into it when making the story of the original.
The Angra Type Avengers are ones who were the target of undeserved hatred and end up speaking of love kind of mockingly. The closest cases are, well, Angra and Gorgon. The Dantes Type Avengers (born of love and speak of hatred) were betrayed in life and seek retribution in their pain. So I think you got the two of them mixed up a little.
Don't you just love the inconsistency of how the Avenger class is regarded as the Forbidden eighth class that shouldn't exist yet that should apply to the Ruler class as well considering that is their polar opposite and the other side of that same coin
I think the reason Ruler isnt considered a forbidden class is because it does naturally occur in some grail wars as basically the refereee to ensuee nothing too bad happens. Avengers have no reason to exist. They dont even make sense for the original purpose of servants as protectors of Alaya as they inherently hate or have a grudge against humanity. Theyre fundamentally opposed to the very basis of servants
@@kirarara8746They have a reason to exist: They register injustice in the Throne of Heroes. But it's not a class meant to be used in favor of the human order willy nilly, they're probably just there to counter evil Heroic Spirits if they get out of hand.
On a side note i think caenis would be an avenger born of love who Speaks of hatred Because as messed up as it is caenis was loved by poseidon thats why she gets his blessings as a servant
Berserker vs Avenger in Summary: Berserker - Has a mythological basis of fits of madness. Doesn't matter the scale of their madness or how angry they were. Avenger - Are considered the Anti-Heroes of the Throne. Their "vengeance" is deemed as a necessary evil in order to "help humanity." That means their madness actually contributed for the sake of someone else. It's a meaningful vengeance. If their vengeance is not deemed necessary, they will never be classified as an Avenger (case in point: Kriemhild). But in Kriemhild's case, it's just the Fate version of the tale making her actions unnecessary. If they stuck to the original tale, it would have been more proper for her to be an actual avenger. Berserkers on the other hand, doesn't have to be an anti-hero. It can be heroic characters like Heracles who had a bout of madness in their mythical tales. Despite this, however, FGO has been lax on that aspect of Berserker since basically anyone can become a Berserker if they're summoned that way (like Musashi). As long as you have Madness Enhancement in your Saint Graph you can become a Berserker (which is just lazy writing but who am I to judge since it's a game).
No, you still need to qualify as a Berserker to be summoned as a proper one. Musashi is a blod-thirsty battle crazy person so she can be a Berserker as much as Mori Nagayoshi can. The only ones with the "Mad Enhancement imposed onto them" stick are seasonal berserkers (like Summar variants) and the ones in Oleans who never lose their original Class.
I'm personally of the opinion revenge is definitely warranted sometimes heck I'd even help them in there revenge as long as either A they don't hurt anyone or servants I care about or B destroys the timeline otherwise they can do what they want with it
The difference btw the berserker and is avenger class is how far they’ll go, The berserker class are beings who have lost themselves in they’re rage that they lose sight of how they are, they’re pretty much mindless beast and like other mindless beast they can be cornered, but the avengers are different they’re rage is bent on a single goal to the point it defines them entirely it’s their reason for being altogether, to put it simply a berserker is a rage temper tantrum where you simply destroy everything in sight but an avenger is someone who seeks revenge and gets lost in it, The perfect example is Heracles as a berserker he is turned pretty much into a mindless beast because of how he suffered by the god’s labors but as avenger alicides he has a goal to destroy the god’s and make them pay and he will stop at nothing to do so Or let’s use animals for example , berserker are wild tigers, you get in they’re Den and mess with them and they’ll tear you limb from limb you don’t and they don’t , but avengers are man eating tigers, they actively search for you no matter where you run or hide they will find you, they are clever and will use any trick and means to achieve they’re goal no matter how many people they have to drag into it, they’ve developed a taste for it and they can’t go back to what they once were
I think that the video missed two important points - The passive skills standard to the Avenger class that reflec their behavior, like Oblivious Correction that literally makes the servant unable to drop off their hatred until their revenge is fulfilled; - Servants like Dioscuri that practically have Avenger as their second class, this one being very special for having all of the Avenger standard passives, the only servant I know having the full set of passive skills for a completely different class.
@@TheAnimeVoid thats the whole reason I suggested a avenger Anastasia because she mentions it's possible. Plus the fact she somehow saw the lostbelt prolog is something
Ahhh, well I promise I still did research on Anastasia and their potential to be an Avenger in the lore. But yeah, definitely should have went through the interlude myself first
Im pretty sure marie and ushi gozen both said its only a matter of time before they disappear Mild spoiler but all the avenegers cannot come with us, no exception
First time watching your channel gotta admit you got me hooked, Also in regards to avengers as a whole I gotta admit they and berserkers didn't really make much sense to me, alot of the character's Who I would think fit the class best don't qualify (why is nero not a berserker to begin with they are literally a mad tyrant) and more often than not its some non sensible plot which wins them the class (Looking at Ishtar and Antonio)
Achilles Achilles Achilles come down won't you get up get up off the roof is scaring Us in all of us some of us love you, Achilles it's not much but there's proof
He's LINK BAD (Spirit Graph unstable). The banished Avengers (including OG Dantes) are LINK LOST (physically gone from Chaldea, but still available in the Throne).
