What if Ichiro played his entire career in MLB? Rose vs Ichiro in an alternate universe. 

Great video. I am curious if you factored in the '94 baseball strike in terms of hits. Mariners played 112 games in 1994; when the strike ended in '95, M's played 145 games, so -67 games which prob wouldn't have been a big deal. Assuming an average of 4 at-bats per game, Ichiro would've lost 275 at-bats from the strike, times by your estimated batting average of .325 and that would mean 89 fewer hits (89.375). So his hit total would be 4,295 hits.

What if Warren Moon played his entire career in the NFL?

Another factor, besides the decreased number of seasonal games he played in Japan, is that Ichiro batted leadoff in MLB - which provided more opportunities to add to his raw hit totals. His batting average in Nippon Baseball was much higher, but he actually averaged more hits per game in MLB than he did in Japan. Batting leadoff is the main factor in this. In his Nippon career, Ichiro had 1278 hits in 951 games. This average of 1.3438 hits per game would amount to 218 hits in a 162 season. But in his first ten MLB seasons, Ichiro had 2244 hits in 1588 games. This average of 1.413 hits per games would jump to 229 hits in 162 games. His batting average was 20 points lower in the majors but his hits per game was measurably higher due to batting leadoff.

The true crux of this argument is that Ichiro may have been the last great player that *could have* passed Rose had he played his whole career in MLB. No one else is even close. Much love for Ichiro, one of my personal favorites, but Rose's record stands, and likely will for a long long time.

Awesome video!! If Ichiro had joined the Seattle Mariners to play in the Kingdome in 1994 or 95, could you imagine the sort of monster batting lineup they'd have if they added him to a group that already included A-Rod, Ken Griffey Jr, Edgar Martinez, Jay Buhner, Joey Cora - just to name a few? Nobody would dare want to walk Ichiro if there was the threat of A-Rod, Griffey and Edgar Martinez behind him. Also, think about how fast a young Ichiro would be, stealing bases and driving pitchers crazy while they had to pitch to those guys? And also think of how much better those Mariners teams would have been defensively with Ichiro in right instead of Jay Buhner, and Griffey in center?

1960's batting averages were historically low until MLB lowered the mound in 1969. Rose would have gotten more hits earlier in his career with a lowered pitching mound.

This is awesome! Thanks for putting in the work :)

This video needs considerably more views

and he did it in the steroid era

So that makes him the all time All-World Hitting King in my book

Thanks awesome video!

Great video and an interesting thought experiment. Subbed

I wish this was longer great video so interesting

You deserve more views man great video and analysis

Excellent content. Thanks man! Liked and subbed

There is also the likelihood he hits below .300 these things are excellent to discuss and what make sports great. Yes im biased. I went to same highschool rose did.

Nice video! Keep it up and you’ll keep getting better

Wow man, it's always a great feeling finding a small channel with such a high production quality and level of analysis! Nice job. One of the things I like about these types of questions is that there is never going to be a satisfying, objective answer, but in the end you can still come out with a greater appreciation for the level of skill and consistency required to even be in the running. Personally, I revered Ichiro as a kid (and still do! As an Asian kid growing up a Mariners fan, he is my favorite player of all time). That being said, I feel as though Pete Rose is the all-time hit king, given the unarguable fact that he did actually achieve all of these hits in the MLB. Once the question is reframed in terms of "hypothetical" hits, the value of the record loses meaning a little, in my opinion. However, I also feel like there were WAY too many detractors of Ichiro's accomplishments in the NPB. I believe that this mentality is changing nowadays, but there seemed to be a common conception amongst the baseball elitists in the US that no international baseball was worth watching or appreciating. How about a compromise? We can decide that Pete Rose and Ichiro are, together, the two greatest contact hitters of all time.

Love your videos! ❤️

Ichiro didn't have to face Ryan, Seaver, Koufax, Gibson, Spahn, etc...Pete did...Lots of fun these discussions!

The era in which the two played is important as well. While there were some hard throwers in Rose’s era, from an all-up average, the average MLB fastball was in the upper mid to high 80s. In Ichiro’s era, the average fastball was 91-93. In addition, Ichiro’s era is a more specialized game in terms of pitching. Long, middle, short relievers and closers. It was not uncommon to see Ichiro face multiple pitchers in a game, fresher arms and different styles and pitches. Rose’s era was not nearly as specialized. Starters were expected to pitch deep into games. Rose would have a chance to see the same pitcher 3 or more times in a game. Make adjustments and as the game wore on, the pitcher’s arm gets a little more tired. Pitching has evolved since the 60s, 70s and 80s where velocity has increased along with spin rates on breaking stuff. In my opinion, Ichiro would have had an easier time to hit in Rose’s era and Rose would find it more difficult if he played in the 2000s

I think you should taken MLB’s average AB’s a game on those converted years but loved the video nice work!

Well done video sir.

Dope video bro

You make better content than your sub count suggests :) Big things will come for you if you keep it up!

Great video. I like how it is in our universe. We get two hit kings.

u deserve more views

nice vid man

Ichiro is an amazing player and one of the best of his generation. But... American players that can't make it in the US rake in the NPB regularly. Guys that are at the end of their career extend it by playing in Japan. Five of the top 31 players recording hits for 2022 are former prospects/MLB players Dayan Viciedo (career .254 hitter in 5 mlb seasons), Jose Osuna (.241 in 4 seasons), Ryan McBroom (.261 in 3 seasons), Gregory Polanco (.241 in 8 seasons) and Neftali Soto (.071 in 2 seasons). In 1994, his first full year in the NPB, Ichiro hit .385 in 130 games. He lead the league. However, in the Japan Pacific League, 12 players hit over .300 with (10 hit over .315, 3 hit over .348). Considering there are exactly 6 teams in the Japan Pacific League with 25 players, and only 15 of those are position players, that means that almost 15 percent of the league hit .300 or better. So, let's not pretend that the NPB is even comparable to the MLB for getting hits. Ichiro had a career .311 batting average. Claiming he'd hit .325 in the early part of his career when very few young hitters do better at the very beginning of their career is pure speculation. Also, Ichiro realistically probably doesn't make the majors until age 22 to 24 as well considering he didn't do well in his first couple of years. You're neglecting the fact that the vast majority of teams don't like starting the clock on their young players, and with Ichiro not hitting for power, it's far less likely he gets called up early. Starting him in the MLB at age 20 when he didn't do well in the NPB the first two years is ridiculous.

Dude. This is good.

i love this video

Great video... keep it up... buuuut... counting Ichiro's 20-21 age seasons assuming he'd get called up in an alternate universe even though he only had 36 career hits age 18-19 is still a huge assumption as Rose was kept down until age 22 even though he had 89 hits age 18-19 and 330 hits age 20-21. If you assume Rose makes the majors at the same age as Ichiro, it's not that clear cut. Rose's hit prowess somewhat gets underestimated. It took Ichiro age 27-42 to reach 3,000 hits and he got 3,030 hits in those seasons. From age 27-42, Rose got 3,091 hits.

Nice vid

Any chance we can get you to do A) Sadaharu Oh with home runs, B) Ted Williams, all major categories and C) Babe Ruth...if he had stayed a pitcher, or had always been a hitter?

Remember that Rose also played his first decade through one of the most pitcher-dominant eras since the dead ball.

The legendｓ

decent forecast of alternate universe. mine is better. ie if you are saying Ichiro was in MLB for his 20 and 21 age seasons, then you must add Rose's 20 and 21 age seasons from the minors.

I wonder how Josh Gibson would have done in the majors.

At age 20, Ichiro set the Japanese record for batting average and hits in a season. At age 20, Pete Rose was doing well in the Class D minor leagues. Rose argued that if Ichiro's Japanese-league hits should count, then his minor-league hits should count. It's not the same. Mind you, class D baseball is absolutely valid, awesome baseball, but come on, get real. Ichiro was simply better at compiling hits than probably anyone who ever played. All-time great glove, arm, and wheels, too.

Ichiro #1 in our hearts

If Ichiro played in the MLB his whole career I'm confident that the record would have been enough motivation for him to stay healthy, work hard, and have even more longevity. Even if he was no longer valuable to a top winning team there would still be some team who would take him. And we're talking about hits, not HR or SB where age really might hinder production.

Rose is the best all around hitter. If rose played in Japan he'd have a lot more

You do have to wonder, however, if Ichiro had played the entire time in the states, if some idiot would have tried to coach him out of his hitting style because he wants more home runs.

..and if Barry Bonds played his career in Japan he’d have 1000+ home runs. And if….

Interesting. But could we have just added Pete Rose's minor league hits and see how that compares to Ichiro's NPB + MLB hits. I remember Pete Rose complaining that his minor league hits didn't count so Ichiro's NPB hits shouldn't count either.

I think in most conceivable universes Pete Rose would still be the MLB hits king even if Ichiro was born in the USA, and grew up here. Another thing that is not often talked about it Pete Rose had 4256 hits and 1566 walks. Ichiro had 3089 hits and only 647walks. Even in the few universes where Ichiro manages to beat out Pete Rose as the hit king I don't think he could ever beat him in hits+walks.

There's another way to look at this just count Rose's minor league hits he still wins

Can we get Ruth back his HR crown in this alternate universe? Didn't he play entirely in the 154 games per season era? Hmm... nope, that only gets us to 751. Aaron still edges him out by 4, but it's a nail biter. Of course, since we live in the worst possible universe I'm assuming this other universe is the 'good' universe, so they would have busted Barry for steroids before he even got to the 700 club, and Aaron would still be king. Pujols would be just the 3rd member of the club. Of course, maybe in the alternate universe we had a truly international league and Oh gets to bring his home runs over (smaller parks over there, but fewer games). And Josh Gibson would be in there too, adjusted for games played and competition level.

What a lot of BS if you think the pitching he faced in Japan was close to mlb your nuts

One thing MLB played about 112 games in 1994, and 144 games in 1995. That's about 70 games. So, he have to subtract about 95 hits from the total. So, he ends up with 4289 with his .325 average Still a record

We can also ask if Cal Ripken Jr became the all time baseball iron man when he passed Lou Gehrig in 1995 or Sachio Kinugase in 1996.

He would have come close and but he did slow up in his very late 30s while rose had a few more solid years. However if he broke 4000 I'm sure he might have stuck around to break it. Could use the argument that if you count his Japanese number you have to count Rose's minor league hits too. Either way both were hitting machines and fantastic ballplayers and fun as hell to watch.

While are we still talking about this? Yea he probably could've, but it didn't happen. Doesn't affect his greatness. I swear some people are just butt hurt that the record belongs to an American ball player. Let it go

Good video. Could Ichiro have had more career hits? I would say, yes, his chance of that happening was very good. Until then, Pete remains king as far as most hits go. As far as the art of hitting, neither of these two players can touch Tony Gwynn and its not even close.

Ichiro is easily one of the most underrated players in baseball history. Elite contact hitter, elite baserunner and elite defensively. His only "flaw" was his lack of power

The 1994 season was shortened by the player's strike

you should do a video about erubiel durazo

Ichiro and Pete were both workhorses. Ichiro all around though is the greatest baseball player that ever lived. You could win a world series with an Ichiro at all 9 positions.

What if Rose played his entire career in Japan? Besides there being alot of little Petes running around...

Playing "what if" is absurd. If Stan Musial would have started in MLB at age 17, and played to 50, HE would be the all time hit leader.

What if Ucguri did? What if Ted Williams had not lost 5 years to Military Service? What if Ruth and Gerig had not played in a stadium with a short porch in right field? Williams was so much better than everyone else, no comparison.

I generally disagree with the assessment of NPB being better compettion than AAA, especially in the 90's, maybe it is now, although i still have my doubts.

There's only ONE PETE ROSE 🌹.

We saw Ichrico at peak of career if starter MLB watch number put up. ?

Did you factor in the MLB games lost in '94-95 due to the strike/ lockout? Not a whole lot when working these numbers but a little anyway.

There's no doubt with his Rose-like durability that he'd be the Hit King.

Good analysis. Now compare their gambling earnings.....

Ichiro is the best all-around baseball player there’s ever been

If this and if that and how bout etc, etc etc. The truth is Rose faced better pitching in his days than ichiro did In his days. The other factor is,,,nobody knows and who cares, Rose is the hit king,,,period!

The other problem is Ichiro wont have started playing in the major at 18 either.

What if Ichiro played his entire career with corked bat?

What if Rose played his entire career in Japan?

Rose made this argument himself, but what about his 3 years of AAA? Obviously, these two can't be compared apples to apples.

Cobb still had a higher batting average then both. Between Rose and Ichiro I would take Ichiro.

Ichiro would have had 5000 hits in MLB if he'd played his first 9 seasons in MLB. Rose couldn't have carried Ichiro's jockstrap in any aspect of the game.

Ichiro from the left side batters box... I think he would have passed Pete. Plus, if he was close, he may have played a little longer to get the record. Dude never seemed to miss time. Stretched the whole game to stay loose.

Don’t forget Ichiro is pure class while Pete…. Well, Pete is Pete 🙄

Is there some sort of way we could calculate how many homeruns Sadaharu Oh would’ve hit in the mlb?

If his team can't score he does not get a plate appearance.

Ifa coulda shoulda woulda

Yah he would have close to 5000. What did he have in Japan as well as in the states?

I’m telling you he would have been the first to 4500 hits at least if he started at 18

"Many will say, 'sure, Ichiro had more professional hits..." except that he didn't. Rose had more hits as a professional (4,683).

Ichiro better fielder and better base runner. Better teammate and better person

Why don’t you and Ichiro go make mayonnaise.

Ok Pete might have 5,000 total hits if he played in Japan as well..

And if Jordan didn't retire twice we wouldn't question if he was the goat either but he did so we do. Ichiro didn't get all of his hits in the only league that matters (MLB) so Pete is the goat likely till the end of time. #BigRedMachine

What happens if you count pete rose’s hits in his minor league 20 and 22 seasons as the competition was similar?

You have to add Roses minor league stats

this is a nice conclusion on its surface. I would have liked to see a couple of other factors in play.. 1. PITCHING. it would be safe to assume that MLB pitchers threw harder and faster than their Japanese counterparts. how would Ichiro face off against Nolan Ryan, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, Greg Maddux? Who would be the Japanese counterparts to these pitching greats? 2. PARK DIMENSIONS. Japanese parks are by average, smaller in playable dimensions than MLB parks. especially in Pete Rose's day where half of the stadiums were built from a cookie cutter template (you know im right) would some of the home runs Ichiro hit in NPL be enough for MLB ballparks? Ichiro isnt exactly a slouch in that department either. but these count as hits. 3. OVERALL PLAY. Lets face it, MLB players are just tougher all around, nastier, far more aggressive. There would be no time wasted in brushing back Ichiro during those days and he would be plunked far more than once during Rose's era. I will say it would be close. But i would like to think that Rose would still be the hit king over Ichiro...not by much, but Pete Rose would be... IMHO. unless Rose bet against the team he was playing for (unless i missed something) that would be the ONLY reason he shouldnt be in the HALL OF FAME...i mean MLB let Stet Trout back in after SEVEN drug violations and I mean the Steroid era? All Mr Rose did was waste his money.

You are not counting Pete Rose’s minor league stats!

Ichiro is an all-time great but young Ichiro facing MLB pitchers would not hit .325 he'd have struggles and the lower range of .300 is super generous

I agree with your conclusion but not with your methodology. The error lies really with how the LEAGUE performed during those years that you're plugging Ichiro into. What you should probably be doing is comparing how well he performed above the league average and plug that into MLB's seasons. That would account better for live ball and dead ball years. I have NO PROBLEM with arguing that Ichiro would have achieved 4300+ hits in MLB. He might have even improved faster with better competition and coaching at an earlier year. Certainly, his trash talking would have been unparalleled.

"global hit king"? i think you should add pete roses' minor leagues hits in then. everything after high school.

WTF? Pete Rose is the best game day MLB hitter . End of Story! The Big Red Machine was a beast in the 70's Pete Rose was a big part of it! This if? Shit CMTFU! If a donkey had a square butt hole? It would crap bricks 🧱! IF?

Ichiro

Oh yeah also count Rose's "pro" minor league hits so he is either way the Hit King...

BALONEY - Yeah, keep IGNORING Rose's Minor League Hits, and thanks for the Star Trek/ Super Hero alternate universe line - Tons of desperation and not an ounce of reality. I would LOVE to see an Ichiro today, and I miss fine .300 hitters in today's -YAWN - MLB. Rose, however is The Hit King, MLB & Otherwise. Ichiro couldn't even buy a hit his last couple of years.

Should give honorable mention to Cap Anson, who still got near 3000, despite playing half his career in shortened seasons. Edit: 3012, if you count the NA, 3400+, and he did play over 100 games until 1884.

Ichiro was great for his time but he wouldn’t make the majors today because of evolution. Baseball players today have way stronger evolutions inside their bodies so they’re way better than Ichiro.