@@MonsieurDean I hope you rot in hell. Did you get 10000 USD from Greeks or something? Even If I was a Greek I couldn't be this biased when making a video.
14:05 if Greece had taken over Ankara all by itself, it is very unlikely that the Treaty of Sevres would actually be enacted as had been initially signed. The treaty would be renegotiated, in a way that Greece would take more territory in Western Anatolia (most likely the regions of Mysia and Bithynia, which had large Greek populations) as well as North Eastern Anatolia, were the large Pontic Greek populations resided. Italy would also lose all of its possessions in Anatolia, as it had already made a separate agreement with Turkey, which allowed it to pass troops through the Italian zone, and Greece vowed to eliminate the Italian zone, even if it meant that Turkey would be given the land. And, after all that, it is more likely than not that Greece would attempt to take over Constantinople, to complete the Megali Idea
@@1212Diablo Yeah Italy wasn't going to get that land in the first place, especially since they only controlled a small part in the coast. But after allowing the Turks to enter, the zone was essentially lost for them. But also, regardless of that, Greece and Italy had a large rivalry over the naval dominance in the Eastern Mediterranean, with Britain generally supporting Greece. This naval "cold war" was especially evidenced in Albania (where Italy demanded that Greece should retreat from Northern Epirus, and leave it to its Albanian protectorate) and in the Dodecanese (an island chain in the southeastern Aegean, inhabited by Greeks, but colonized by Italy). Also, Italy contested the Greek control of Smyrna. Greece wouldn't just hand over massive amounts of lands to their rivals, especially if Greece was in a position of strength.
Even though those Regions Greece could take had large Greek Populations, Muslims were still a Majority in many places, even though Aegean Coast would be easier to hold due to its closeness and being more Urbanized, Black Sea regions, with their still Larger Muslim majority, composed of Warlike Chepnis and Lazs especialy in Eastern Black Sea İnhabiting extremely thickly forested Mountanious areas will be the Equivelant of Carthage conquering Gaul from North Africa. Most likely Greece wouldnt wanted to Overextend itself and just remain in the Far wealthier Aegean possesions and maybe Resettling Greeks from Black sea towards these regions to better establish themselves.
@@ylmazirdenyazc8393 in the 6 regions of Pontus that Greeks claimed, there was a 80% Pontic Greek population (1.2 million). However, it is a fact that Greece would be overextended this way. Venizelos recognized this, and after a briefing with Germanos Karavangelis, the Archbishop of Trebizond, he said that Pontus should make a confederation with Armenia. However after Armenia was defeated by the soviets and Karabekir's forces, the Pontic Greeks declared the Union with Greece. This was only disbanded with the treaty of Lausanne
@@georgios_5342 dude there was no 80% greek majority in Black Sea region, most Ottoman sources as well as British maps and the Wikipedia wich once put the pictures of Coachroaches on the page "Turkish People" agrees that the Majority in the Eastern and Western Black Sea were Laz (a south Caucasian muslim people) and Chepnis (An Oghuz tribe that was originaly adhered to Alewite İslam but was later Sunnified) with significant Pontic Greek communities in Oph valley as well as Trebizond, Amisos and mostly smaller certain valleys, and the Number 1.200.000 isnt just the Pontic Greeks, its the total number of Pontic, Cappadocian and Aegean greeks as well as somewhere between 100.000 to 400.000 Karamanlides (Descendants of Turcopols who are basically Orthodox Central Anatolian Turks) it doesnt help that Ottoman Sources used Religion as distinction not Ethnic, meaning these Minorities within Pontus Region is Pontic Greeks and Armenians combines, for example there was a Catholic Armenian Community within city of Artvin whilst Borçka was inhabited by Muslim Georgians, whilst upwards were Čxala and Xopa Lazs, thats basicaly what the metrics you can Apply to rest of the Black sea.
11:00 this is often forgotten, but after November 1920, virtually all of the allies of Greece betrayed it AND even stole its money that was stored in American and British banks for the duration of the war. If they had an issue with Constantine, they could have deposed him yet again. The real reason they changed sides was because, after satisfying their own needs by making gains in the Levant, they didn't care at all about the Greeks and Armenians.
@@eidoneverchoosen1171 It is not because they didn't cared but they didn't had the money and the power to figth against Turks in their homeland which is very mountainus.
@@youravaragetoxicmasculinem9508 their also the fact the British primary didn't want any other European power to threaten their global hegemon,, co steering many European empires care only about getting more resource rich lands for themselves. This is why Europe great empires fell.
Turks did not have a chance had it not been for the bolsheviks, the Italians and the French. Yet even under those circumstances the Greeks could have handled Asia Minor but they were divided. Hence the salvation.
The situation in Greece shows that Venizelos made two key mistakes: 1. Never allow your figurehead king to be near monkeys. 2. When you depose a king, kill him. Otherwise he'll come back for his throne.
What if the carlists managed to escape to the colonies (or took over Peru which had a lot of royalist support) Or maybe what if the Spanish governor general of the Philippines's plan to conquer china using japanese mercenaries went through Also really enjoyed the vid can't wait for more your definitely the most active alt history channel I know of so this is really scratching that itch
What if Germany was Balkanized after WW2? Say the British occupation zone restored the Kingdom of Hanover, the American zone became an independent democratic Bavaria, the French zone a series of protectorates like Saarland, Baden-Württemberg and Hesse, and the Soviet zone became communist Brandenburg and Saxony?
@@MonsieurDean Thanks! Heck, you could go even further with this timeline and have the Soviets keep the Germans in Kaliningrad and call it the Prussian SSR, and have Austria remain divided between East and West. The more German states you can create, the better 😂
@@morsecode980 we can probably go off of the former german states that joined (feel free to debate that) the habsburg in place like a northern tyrol, austria itself and more
12:11 Archbishop Chrysostomos of Smyrna was brutally beaten to death and dismembered, his body parts were then paraded throughout the city to terrorize the Greeks. Numerous women were abducted, raped, or murdered inside their houses, and by the end of it, all Greeks had either died or fled to Greece, months before the "population exchange", which was in reality only a normalization of relations after the genocide had already happened
greek army burn smyrna and many greek populated cities when they retreat from central Anatolia, leaving almost half of anatolia in ruins, accusing turk for Smyrna burning doesnt make sense because advancing armies dont burn their own supply line and cities, houses and buildings of the conquered towns/cities can be used as supply depot, but retreating armies do burn everything when they retreating, its called scorch earth policy, so blame Greece and armenian thugs who work for them for setting Smyrna on fire.
The Genocide wasnt one sided by only Turks though, less then a decade before Balkan wars saw Millions of Muslim Refugees a good chunk being Balkan Muslims like Muslim Greeks, Pomaks, Albanians, alongside Balkan Turks, around 3-5 million fled between Greek war of İndependence and population exchange whilst 2-2.5 million lost their lives, this was also less than 30 years after 800.000 to 1.5 million Circassians forcibly exciled to Ottoman Empire fleeing the Genocide of their Homelands at the hands of the Russians (before you call me a liar, actual biased report is made by Justin McArthy wich i believe you are familiar for his renowned Denial stand (im not a denier thank god) he gives +5 million refugees and 5 million deaths so you can be sure that im not moving off some weird Agenda) Population exchange was merely the end point of Centuries of Ethnic conflict wich didnt Discriminated between neither Muslim or Christian or Civilian and Military. Unlike what international census would want you to believe.
@@MonsieurDean Maybe the Prussian-led German Empire grows unpopular to dismantle before the 20th century? Leaving maaaaybe enough time for the German states to get together again and form an Austrian-led German Empire
@@MonsieurDean Oops! My bad! I meant to write Franz Josef of Austria who was offered by the German Confederation to be first German emperor but on condition of relinquishing the crown of Hungary which he refused to do. I was wondering what might happen if he had accepted that condition.
What a disgusting and racist thing to say. This why the crimes AGAINST Turks aren't mentioned and even accepted. Because of terrible disgusting people like you. Make the same comment about black people or Jewish people. I dare you.
@@James-rf1wn lmao when did turks "crush and humiliate" Britain in war? I've checked my maps. Nope, the turks don't control Syria, they don't control Iraq, they don't control Jordan, they don't control hejaz.
The Russians supported a Greek state in Constantinople if you count renaming Constantinople to Tsargrad and settling it with Russians as well a possibly making it the Russian capital due to dynastic/religious aims counts as being Greek, the Russians would probably say it was because 'we are the Romans now' but I have a feeling many Greeks would contend that point, especially once the Russians start moving to annex the lost orthodox territories of Rome, like say Greece. And yeah it is a mostly western idea of the Greeks having connection to antiquity, the Byzantine link was much more relevant until ancient Greek fanboys started intervening in national diplomacy, with most of them being liberals and thus massively prejudiced against the byzantines in general and Christians in particular.
Im pretty sure if the greek army defeated and occupied ancyra, greece would have pushed for far more territory considering it wasn't only the shores of smyrna and constantinople having greek majority and minority populations
as a person who wrote his university thesis about war of Turkish independence this is bullshit even according to foreign sources Greeks and Armenians were huge minority not a minority
Hello from France, I like your channel very much . Just a few things. The Ottomans took Constantinople in 1453, not 1452. During the first world war, the Russians had beaten the Turks in Caucasus, before collapsing in 1917. Sèvres, little city in France near Paris, is pronounced something like ”Seavr” (with ”ea” like in ”bear ”).
What aid did the French give to Turks? What aid did the Italians give to Turks? Do we consider captured wepons as aid now? Then we can also say Greece helped Turkish war of Independence. Only soviets sent rifles and thats it.
French aid 10.000 rifle 1.500 machine gun 1.500 crate of ammunition 10 aircraft 200 truck 1 gunpowder factory 3 telegraph station 10 hangar Italian aid 20.000 rifle 20 aircraft 4.310.000 bullet 97.000 kg gunpowder
@@MonsieurDean Add this to your garbage video too.. --> Elzear Guiffray, the elected chief of Izmir’s French community, estimated the number of Turks killed by the Greeks and the Armenians in Western Anatolia starting from May 1919, was in excess of 150,000, and without counting the displaced peoples, as 300,000. ( Archives du Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres / Arnold J. Toynbee, The Times of London, 6 April 1922 / E. Alexander Powell, The Struggle for Power in Moslem Asia, 1925 )
@@MonsieurDean And this.. --> America should feed the 500,000 Turks, whose hinterland was wilfully demolished by the retreating Greeks, instead of aiding the Greeks and the Armenians, who are sitting around waiting for America to give them their next meal. The stories of Turkish atrocities circulating among the American churches are a mess of lies. I believe that not the Turks, but the Greeks are the barbarians. ( - Arthur Moss, Florence Gilliam / The Turkish Myth / The Nation Magazine / June 13, 1923 Edition - )
So... if Constantine I was never born or was assassinated by some luck, a German, then this whole degredation of Greek Reconquista wouldn't had happened and Greece might had united Turkish lands with its own with the Re-hellenization of Anatolia as the Turks are mostly the same people genetically to what had lived in Anatolia since Eastern Roman Times. Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark seems to be a suitable alternative to Constantine as he abdicated, assassinated, died or was never born. King Andrew of Greece. His heir would had been Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, husband to Elizabeth II. So basically King Philip. When he passed away, their son Charles, yes Charles III would be the King of Greece and the United Kingdom. Basically Greece would be part of the United Kingdom, the Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Greece. This would be odd since the UK is largely a Protestant Country or Set of Countries while Greece is profoundly Orthodox. A good way around this is that the King is just a ceremonial figurehead who shares responsibilities with the Patriarch of Constantinople who is entirely independent of the Crown, thereby keeping the Country, Orthodox. The Good Part of this is that it would make the UK and Greece allies prior to their unification and it would make Turkey pretty much non-existant. They would probably join the Axis Powers, lose, fall under the control of an Ambitious Soviet General and become part of the Soviet Union. This of course being Eastern Turkey as the West would still be under Helleno-British control. There would be a Turkish Republic, but it would be very weak and easily lose Eastern lands to the Kurds, making it even smaller. Pretty much just Central Anatolia and the Black Sea Coast along with Mersin and Adana as the rest would be either Greek, Armenian or Kurdish and no Hatay taken from Syria. Greece had also annexed Cyprus too and Greece would be one of the consituent countries of the United Kingdom.
Given the substantial troubles in the Soviet Union in the 20s, I find the idea of an actual Soviet-Allied war somewhat unlikely - more like a “Cold-war Prequel”, with substantial military support for the Turks. BUT, if you did see some sort of actual conflict and occupation of the SU, why not a restoration of the Romanov Dynasty? They WERE allied to Britain and France, were NOT friendly to the Turks, and at this point, Russia had only been under communism for maybe a decade or so.
The most likely outcome from this would be Greece and Turkey gradually taking the Italian and French held areas of Anatolia, while Armenia keeps its territory and Kurdistan likely starts to incorporate Kurdish areas in French Syria and British Iraq. With the loss in territory, do the Hashemites maintain Syria and Iraq and then merge with Jordan to form a Hashemite Kingdom of Arabia to counter Saudi Arabia? Do the Hashemites try to reclaim Mecca and their lands in the Arabian Peninsula? Is there still an Israel?
12:41 You heard it guys. Eastern Thrace was never conquered by the Turks but given up on order of the British. You can thank them for the reason Constantinople is still Muslim.
Turkey would've take it either way. They were in a better position than Greece militarily and Eastern Thrace had a majority Turkish population. So not really Brits.
@@simulacrumpilot2777 The Turkish military wasn’t in a better position for most of the war and they only overcame after all the allies betrayed Greece and even started helping the Turks and the Greek economy collapsed which also happened because of the allies taking all of their money out of Greek banks. Also eastern Thrace had a majority Greek and Bulgarian population.
What if Europe, Middle East, America and Africa had adopted the cult of Makima, Revy, Cutie Honey, Marin Kitagawa, Trixie Tang, Judy Neutron, Marge Simpson, Wendy Corduroy, Lois Griffin, Sailor Moon and Maddie Fenton instead of Abrahamic shit?
Don't forget the Babylonian genocide done by turkey. 51 million Babylonians all gone because of turkey. Not one Babylonian survived. My grandfather who is Babylonian and survived the Genocide is eye witness. He told me stories. Today no Babylonians are left because of turkey.
@@eatinsomtin9984 To be fair, they were barely Christian's as ethno nationalism was their main motivation (rather than Gospel virtues or principles) at this point due to the pathetic economic conditions they had enough of. This is similar to how it was Turkish nationalism and not Islam that motivated the genocides of Christians in the late Ottoman empire. But yes, it is sad that both Muslims and Christians suffer due to nationalist stupidity
Together with Russia? That would shorten the war significantly. Also Bulgaria may stay neutral as they would feel surrounded... I d say in 1916 peace would be signed with defeat of Germany and survival of both Russian and Ottoman empires.
5:32 true that. To this day, the majority of Greeks have partial or full Anatolian heritage, and were outraged for example when the Turkish government turned the Panagia Soumela Monastery in a night club, or Hagia Sophia into a Mosque
İf Soumela you meant is the one in Trebizond then its in a really good shape really, unlike the Hagia Sophia of Trebizond its still both a Museum and a major Tourist attraction, just like Mostar Bridge.
wtf? You think erdogan would allow night clubs?? That aside, the hagia sophia being open for religious usage again is being protested by İstanbul's local goverment, (Ekrem İmamoğlu being a major figure) and that night club thing, when??? I think you mean that one very preserved monastry built on a hillside in trabzon which is, VERY preserved and certainly NOT a night club.
what if the "Plan of casamata" never happens, the idea of a mexican empire led by iturbide would be interesting, Iturbide is a very underrated strategist, the mexican independence movement was likely destroyed by de spanish empire but iturbide with the "Ejercito trigarante" manage to do all de work. It will be interesting to see the war of 1846 with a (maybe) stable empire with a leader like iturbide
greece,bulgaria, yugoslavia, italy and possibly rommania and hungry all end up in a new balkan war over the territory. the british and french are busy fighting local uprisings for the next decade which proabbly leads the french to have a much bigger military in 1939 and a more agressive foreign policy.
There is an important historical wrong. Eleftherios Venizelos do not was the stop of the monarchy, but was the Republic with King, as the United Kingdom, but the democrats from his political party, as Alexander Papanastasiou, they were the winners and in Match, 25th, 1,924a.b.c.c. maked the second Greek Republic without king.-
The Kingdom of Greece was established in 1830. In 1821 it was the beginning of the GREEK REVOLUTION that lead to the establishment of the kingdom of Greece in 1830.
There is an important historical wrong. The fall of the the Constantinople was in 1,453 after the beginning of the christian chronology and not in 1,452 as you say mister Monsieur Z.-
men, we need to get josh in to the work again, slavery is historicool ascoolrated and we should force him into creating a expanded cenario of this, with changes on what happens on italy,germany, poland, russia, balkans, west and austria with the changes on turkey leading to this 1920s great war, perfect cenario for a alternative history, get josh to basement
the fall of Constantinople was on 29th of May 1453, mate. not 1452. i did like the "international zone(read british)". aaand... the greeks always failed to do what they want because of divisions among themselves. which always lead to civil wars. which is the main reason their empire was destroyed. plenty of divisions here too, making anyone else able to gain some lands from them.
Even by some miracle they were able to pull that off, it wouldn't have changed much. The various minorities were going to rebel anyway, and Europe was bound to exploit it, Ottomans were doomed.
What if Ivan the Terrible married Queen Elizabeth the First of England Ivan the Terrible actual post that idea in our own timeline that would be interesting
Your reading is false. İzmir (Symirna) was burnt by Armenians after 2-3 days the greeks left the city. So Turks did not burn their city. I do not know where you have found 30.000 people. But if so they would be the soldiers of Greeks ,not the local people of İzmir. Moreover Greeks had killed,raped,tortured, thousands of Turks and ruined the villages during their activities at Anatolia 15.05.1919 till to 09.09.2022 more than 3 years. They had killed thousands of Turks even at the city or at the rural ares(villagers) Why do not you tell about this manner? Surely atrocity is not approviate word for this case,too.. That was a war surely, it would happen to Turks. Let me tell you more . Greeks had lost 3/4 of the army that they started to invade Anatolia probably like 120-150.000 soldiers at those wars. So that they call "asiaminor disaster" for this invasion. This was not a atrocity. This was a war .Clear ! As I know France,Italy did not help Turks. They could not get along with Britian at Istanbul.They left Britain and Greeks on theirselves. But they did not collect all of the weapons and ammuniations as well. But Turks fought against France at Adana,Antep,Maraş region. So France was defeated by local people and their groups. I do not know that Turks fought against Italians as well. Please also change your videos Republic of Turkey to Republic of Turkiye from now on. Becasue this is the reality. In addition to this let me tell you how Republic of Turkiye was established. After the invasion of Istanbul and most of the Anatolia , the Greeks,Britain were very happy to be the witnesses and to be the heros of their dreams. But WW1 destroyed Britain so heavily. They had lost millions of soldiers and people. So they could not bear the financial debts and losts of the war. So they could not hold İstanbul. This is the vital point. So Mustafa Kemal was knowing this. So that he said "They will go as they have come " Mustafa Kemal was ready to establish a country.Because he was great observer,learner and visioner . He stayed at Karlovy vary for a curement during June-July 1918 after WW1. and he had chance to observe the difficulties of establishing the republic of Czechoslovakia. Czechoslavakia was established at 28.10.1918. Moreover he had met with Colonel(?) Mihail Vasiliyeviç Frunze and colonel(?) Kliment Voroşilov at there. Then these 2 russian soldiers helped Turkish independence war so much that their sculptures are still on the monument at Taksim square later. See the monument of Taksim. After all, let's come to your question. If Turks would be defeated by Greeks what if.... According to my opinion , the fire of Independence would still flame. But it would be late at the 30's. Greeks would behave Turks as Jews do to the Palestians .This would cause a hate ,so they would be defeated again at this seneario. Because Greeks did not have enough source and production to maintain this kind of an invasion.They had no chance. In fact , I agree with you. Soviet Union would continue to support Turkish independence war , to get Anatolia ,the gate of them to go through the hot waters. What I think about the Greeks is that they were punished by the divine providence. Because after this defeat, they had powerty at Greek mainland. then some of them immigrated to USA then Germans defeated them again and lost probably 300-350.000 people. And then the civil war started in Greece after WW2. So Greece could not come to himself, always stayed at unconsicious after 1921. The ones could leave then they left the country.Moreover divine providence punished them also for their genocides that they did against Turks at Tripoli in Mora peninsula 1821th and/or at Crete .But they are not important because killing Turks were holly or not important. Observe these genocides please.
This is confusing. Why is it called Turkic Independence? Otomans were Turks... And all Turks in the ottoman empire were Turks.... It's like the British declaring indence from the Beitish empire.... In other words just having revolution..not actually Independence
Greece was never the occupier, Greeks had been in Asia Minor for over 3000yrs. The Turks invaded from Central Asia. The occupier was always and still is the Turks. Please correct!
Honestly I could see the monarchists negotiating control of Constantinople from Britain, who may give it up to prevent a civil war in Grease which would threaten their control of the region, this could prevent a civil war by giving the monarchists a lot more support and once the second world war happens the British would see the surrender of Constantinople to Grease as a justifiable decision since it would have prevented the rise of fascism in one of their allies.
