What is a Polygamy Denier? 

I had a similar experience: was troubled after reading Bushman’s book, found Rob Fotheringham’s videos, found Mark Curtis’s Hemlock Knots research on timelines of polygamy claims and related videos, and watched Michelle Brady Stones’ videos (from the beginning). Once I saw the evidence of revising church history on source documents in the Joseph Smith Papers I realized there was some type of cover up that started in Nauvoo and continues today. Had I not found these resources I may have lost my testimony in the Book of Mormon, other scriptures, and maybe even my belief in Christ. Today, I hold fast to the Iron Rod because it’s the only path to Christ that can be trusted.

I am 69 and I never thought much about polygamy and never would have thought of Joseph as doing it. None of the church movies ever depicted him as having more than one wife. Several years ago my son in law started looking into it and listening to John Delin and started saying that Joseph was guilty. Then I heard somewhere that Joseph marrying children and made me sick. I suddenly didn't like Joseph at all. Then I had questions about it.... You know the story of all the roller coaster emotions. I don't remember where I first heard that Joseph was not involved but after that I found Michelle Stone maybe a year and a half ago. That lead me to others. Then later I watched Who Killed Joseph Smith and I knew why he was murdered.

Thank you for breaking down the 6 models. I found that very helpful. I’m a new/mo all the way! I can just feel Joseph, Emma and Hyrum shouting for joy that their names are getting closer and closer to being cleared of such falsehoods. I also feel like Brigham is wanting it revealed and healed too. Lots of repenting and change for individuals and the church is coming! It’s an exciting time! Keep the discussions and videos coming!

I never accepted it even when I was a member of the church as a child, as a young adult. My stake Patriarch told me in private he knew Joseph Smith did not practice it but would not talk about it as it would upset the members to question their leaders and harm the church. Many have known this but have been keeping quiet. Glad to see people are finally not afraid to come forward and challenge the narrative.

Polygamy has never sat well with me and I’ve never accepted it. When I found evidence that Joseph was framed for it after his death, I immediately felt at peace with that. It made so much sense as to why it was the worst pit in my stomach any time polygamy was brought up. He didn’t ever do it!! He taught against it!! And when I watched your documentary, I told my husband that I’m pretty sure he was killed because of polygamy by his own “friends” who wanted to live that lifestyle that Joseph was teaching against!

Great overview of the various models! My beliefs align with the Newmo model. I do not align with the polygamy denier's model because that title insinuates a denial that polygamy occurred. I know it occurred because I come from the original Utah Mormon pioneers, who followed Brigham Young and practiced polygamy. However, I have studied the records and have not found evidence that Joseph Smith Jr. practiced polygamy; the evidence shows that Joseph did not practice polygamy and was against it. I used to manage the FamilySearch IT team, which provided many opportunities to talk with senior leaders of the LDS church. After getting to know their work schedule, I realized they are too busy to study church history to the level needed to find the truth. Unfortunately, most members of the LDS church fall into this same pattern; they are too busy to search the records, and the result is a tradition of belief that has been handed down from one generation to the next. For me, I want to know the truth.

Great video Justin, I appreciate all the research you and others put forth into all your videos! Being a sixth generation LDS/RLDS whose ancestors remained in Nauvoo after the death of Joseph and Hyrum then becoming members of the Reorganization in the late 1860’s when Joseph Smith III was prophet/president of the church I always believed that Joseph and Hyrum were innocent men who never preached, taught, or practiced polygamy. My family were also friends with the Smith’s in Nauvoo and they knew firsthand Joseph wasn’t a polygamist. I look forward to seeing what you and the others you’re involved with in this group you mentioned bringing out more truth to the saints in Utah. God bless you all.

The day I first heard of the possibility that Joseph was not a polygamist was June 12, 2022. Connor Boyack did an episode “Was Joseph Smith Actually a Polygamist”? That blew my mind as a life long active return missionary member. I’ve put in a couple hundred hours researching from all view points, even though I knew from hour one. I’ve tried to share what I’ve learned with so many people with a completely apathetic response. The most common response is “Why does it matter”? My reason is to exonerate Joseph, Emma and Hyrum. Thanks Justin

My wife and i attended a Temple session in 2019 ,the session was full all women and four of us men a thought came to me their going to bring back polygamy then a voice spoke to me and said this is not right or correct all of the Temple the endowment any of it I was shocked and a scripture came to me i believe in 2 Nephi where he says those with the spirit will receive the truth with gladness and the the Lord presented to me Hemlock knots and Rob’s video and then yours THANK YOU TO ALL BRINGING TRUTH TO LIGHT

Hurray! You are our Sunday School. We very much appreciate your work.

I love that you have put this video out! It explains the models perfectly. And yes, I was convinced of the Honest Prophet Model with the same evidence you put out. And by the way, your movie made me weep at what those men did to them. You nailed it. And if there are Brigmos out there, I declare myself a Jomo!

Love your work👍. My story is kinda long so I'll do my best to keep it simple. I was told it wasn't of God when I was a child. I was in primary, probably 10ish. They played a movie about Joseph Smith where plural marriage was included. I didn't know or think I cared but I remember I felt sick. There was something about that teaching that had red flags smacking me in the face. Didn't think about it again until recently where it started eating at me. I'm divorced so not like that was an issue. After a couple of months I took my question to the lord and asked why this was on my mind? The long lost memory of that experience in primary came back to me very clear. So I pondered and prayed for a few more days on this topic and asked again if polygamy was called by God. Every single time I got a NO!! It was such an eye opening experience and my faith increased. Suddenly I felt such clarity unlike I had ever experienced. I then realized that as members we look to our prophet to give us all the answers, to speak to God for us. We have forgotten God, the holy ghost and to whom we are to seek. We are supposed to study it out in our minds, not have our leaders do it all for us. I believe God is calling for us to open our eyes. The members are moving along slowly but slow is better than never😅

My experience regarding Joseph and polygamy came through my family line and the relationship of both Joseph and Emma to my family. They were both related to my family and also very dear friends to my great grandparents and great uncles..many of whom lived with Joseph and Emma. I could never reconcile the supposed fact that Joseph was a polygamist. My grandmother and her father, Jonathon Harriman Holmes (one of Joseph’s body guards) lived with them. It was suggested by Joseph that grandpa wed Elvira Cowles, after my grandmother died. Elvira was also living with the Smiths at this time and helped Emma with the children, including my grandmother. The idea that she was living as Joseph’s plural wife and could be passed from Joseph to my grandpa made no sense. It did not line up with the love they had for the Smiths and their strong testimony of Joseph..but not until I started researching church history did any of this make sense. Joseph had told my grandmother when she was a girl that she would always testify of who he was. How could I testify, like my grandmother, that he was a true prophet with this abomination hanging over his head. So from the standpoint of an LDS person and wanting to believe what my family felt towards Joseph to be true, I was so grateful when I stumbled upon Mark, Rob and Whitney’s work. It was like a load I had been carrying for many years was released! I now have permission to love the Smiths fully.. for the people I knew them to be. Now I can truly say I know Joseph to be honest when he claimed he was innocent of polygamy. Well done, Justin! Looking forward to this project coming forth. So thankful for all those involved.

Hi Justin. I feel that they knew Joseph was closing in on them and they had to make a move. Thus they did away with the two who could put an end to their Power, Wealth and Sex. That is about as strong of motive as it gets.

Great job, Justin! Can't wait for your future videos. Being a NewMo has affected my relationship with my LDS family, but with my "New" perspective I have grown closer to my Savior.

You are an inspiration. I agree with how you laid this out. I agree part of the motive was polygamy but to me that was a symptom of much deeper issues. To me all roads lead to Heber Kimball. Brigham said he was his god. Trace Heber's roots to organizations before his baptism. Could I suggest that you look at Liberty Jail and the great big elders who got him in there, took over while he was out of the way, see letter from Liberty, and wanted him to die there. It was his high up Washington friends, non LDS, who secreted him out. I would look back to the bank failure in Kirkland. The same secret group was behind that, Liberty and Carthage. The same group was involved in the Mountain Meadows. You ever wonder why almost none of the early saints, the witnesses, the foundation members did not go with the Brigham gang. Yes the Temple Lot material is fascinating. Great summary and love that you all are putting this all together. The exmo's are furious that you dare to challenge their ownership of the message. They cherry-pick what sells the narrative they want.

Remarkable information. Justin, thank you so much! You’re right, Chelsea is amazing, I love her channel and always appreciate when she comes out with new information. Both of you have a really neat perspective that I truly appreciate.

I was seeking for truth from God, praying intently to Him to understand why our church and more specifically our prophet said and promoted the things they did around the v/a/x and “caring officials” when the spirit told me something completely opposite about what was going on and more importantly what to do and not do. I had two dreams where a voice told me very clearly that this is how it was with the early saints and polygamy. At the time of those dreams I had no idea what polygamy had to do with our current world situation of c.v.d and the propaganda we were all experiencing. A few months later I came across a Sunday musing titled ‘did Joseph smith practice polygamy’ by Connor boyack. Needless to say, this led me down a path to discovering truths I didn’t even know existed. As I learned more about the true origins of Mormon polygamy I finally understood the message from my dreams.

You make me think. Uncomfortable? Yes but I appreciate your info and opinion. Fasinating and honest. Thank you.

I'm so happy to see you've posted another video! I love your work and everything you're doing. Merry Christmas :)

Thanks Justin, Hemlock, Whitney, the Price family, Michelle & many others for all the Time and Work in this heat endeavour 😉

Great overview of polygamy and the various models. I grew up believing the "unapologetic prophet" model, and with a couple of generations of pioneer ancestors practicing polygamy, I was proud of my ancestors who lived the "higher law". My wife and I prayed we would not have to live it in our lifetime, but were willing if God required it in the next life. Then a couple of years ago we watched your video, WKJS, and it shook us up, and we didn't want to believe it. I did a lot of research to find evidence against or for your hypothesis, and found a lot that showed Joseph Smith had people both in (his "friends") and out (excommunicated apostates) of the church who wanted him dead. And it mostly centered on his "friends" wanting to elevate their spiritual wifery lifestyle to plural marriage, and then make it a requirement for others, like my ancestors, in order to legitimize their practice of plural wife for eternal life. Rob Fotheringham provided several well referenced videos to show how polygamy evolved after Joseph and Hyrum's murders, and there are many others you have mentioned who have been more vocal in their views (unfortunately some have been excommunicated for sharing their research). During my studies, my belief shifted from "repentant prophet" to "honest prophet" where I believe Joseph had women, children, and men sealed to him (Brigham was sealed to over 50 men in a practice that was eventual abandoned by the church), but Joseph did not have polygamous marital relations as evidenced by the lack of DNA with any of those sealed to him. I would rather call myself a TruMo vs. NewMo, because it better describes my shift in belief when the truth was revealed. Also, section 101 was taken out of Part Second of the Covenants and Commandments (Lectures on Faith was the Doctrine portion at the time) and section 132 replaced it; however, we still have D&C 49:16 and it states: "Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife..."

Awesome episode, all the same questions I had. I knew the Book of Mormon was true, had a profound experience that convinced me he was truly a prophet of God, I couldn’t reconcile the polygamy issue. I just knew through prayer that the truth would come out. I’m so grateful for the people who did the research. Thanks for doing this and giving voice to my experience.

What bothers me is when inspired study and thinking is called "conspiracy" Joseph spoke the truth plainly and hid nothing. Those that shout conspiracy are those who are not ready to shake the shackles of disbelief. In the end times good shall be called evil and evil good. We are living that right now.

In the early 1990's in LDS seminary they definitely taught that JS Jr. was not a polygamist, and I have never seen evidence he was supposedly polygamist convincing. The DNA test was zero suprise for me based on what I had been taught at Church and in seminary! Regardless of weather or not you are right on this, I love the energetic tone of what you are presenting, and honestly this IS one of the questions I have been wondering about also: did they wack the prophet to protect their polygamy cult?

I think I can solve this entire thing right now. People who derogatorily use the term “polygamy deniers” are simply horribly misspelling the term “truth acceptors”. People using the term “truth acceptors” in an outwardly derogatory manner toward other people, would probably be best served by focusing their eyes in one, and only one, direction: at a mirror.

Justin my friend, your brilliant, keep up the good work

Excellent! Looking forward to more. I hope it encourages others to do some research. Such important work. The truth matters because it reveals the character of God, above all else.

Correction: the con man model has been around since 1826. But I love your passion and know you are a good guy. I look forward in particular to your explanation of how William and Jane law along with Austin cowles got so much of section 132 in the expositor and why Joseph reacted the way he did. Should be very entertaining.

For the polygamy believers it's evident that most of them aren't actually experienced with spirituality because if I believed that narrative I would have projected that Joseph was deceived.

Excellent presentation. Thanks for putting this together.

Jacob 2:30 has been used by many to justify Brigham and others for practicing polygamy. If read with a Western mind and using the rules of the English language, it seems to suggest that the Lord will make an exception under the circumstances needing to grow a population. However, if you disregard the versification (which hobbles our understanding of the scriptures because ideas are artificially broken up) and look at the verses before and after verse 30 (or better yet, find one of the first editions of the Book of Mormon) and look at the collection of ideas before and after verse 30 you will discover something quite different. Here is how it was explained to me (I didn't not come up with this, Scott Bradley, a former USU Constitutional professor explained it to me) 1. Verse 24, Lord calls the things David and Solomon abominable. 2. Verse 25 the word "Wherefore" is used, this links it to the idea in verse 24. It basically means that "Because the things David and Solomon did were being done in Jerusalem when our Father Lehi was there, the Lord led us away so that he could raise up people that did not follow in those traditions. " 3. Verse 26 & 27 link back to verse 25. It basically says "Let me make it abundantly clear, because I want to raise up people that do not follow these traditions, you are commanded to have one wife only." 4. Verse 28 reinforces the Lord's big time disdain for the practice and how bad it is. Polygamy is prostitution. 5. Verse 29 Lays out the penalties for disobeying, that you will be a cursed people if you support it or practice it. 6. Verse 30 Now the kicker. If this was in chiasmus form, this would be the central theme. It references 'seed'. This is a direct reference to "raising up a righteous branch" found in vs 25. Again, versification and Western sentence grammar have messed up our understanding. If you link the ideas together what you get is: "If I the Lord want to raise up a righteous seed (or righteous branch) I the Lord will command my people to be monogamous, because if I don't specifically do so (otherwise), they will naturally go the way of David and Solomon" 7. The verses (31-34) that follow basically re-enforce 24-29 8. Verse 31 re-enforces the idea that polygamy was being practiced in Jerusalem during the time of Lehi and that it was not good and many were hurt and suffering because of it. If you don't think this is correct, then ask yourself one question. If the Lord commands polygamy in order to raise up 'seed', then why didn't Lehi, Nephi, Sam, the Servant of Laban, Joseph nor Jacob practice it? Wouldn't they have qualified for the "Hey there are just a few of us and we really need to get busy making babies" exception? They didn't because there was no exception. There is no need for it, at all, whatsoever. The very existence of the Nephite nation alone testifies to the world that polygamy was unnecessary to grow a population. There are no exceptions to God's commandments. This understanding has helped me to see that God is indeed the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not make exceptions or change for expediency under any circumstance. So much in the Book of Mormon was put there to warn us against Brigham Young and his ilk. But it went right over our collective heads.

All evidence aside....I have prayed about it and let the spirit help me understand everything. I know most of my fellow Mormons would say I'm full of it, but for the first time in my life, I recently got that confirmation of Joseph, and how he truly was a prophet. I have always had a testimony of the Savior and the Book of Mormon. You would think that a solid testimony of Joseph would come hand in hand with a testimony of the Book of Mormon, but I always just "believed." I never got that confirmation by the spirit about Joseph until I started reading about this, and about Carthage. I have Joseph and Hyrum's backs in this life and the next.

There are many of us who lost faith in the church because of things like bushman's book and learning more about the history, but have had a revival of faith in Jesus Christ and have still been attending church because its our home. silently contributing but not believing the LDS narrative of JS, BOM etc. We reconsider polygamy and fall on the newmo side of things but still have doubts about the BOM and other difficult aspects of the church. We don't want to join another church, and we don't want to sit at home alone on Sunday's reading the Bible. We want the mormon community, but don't fit in. I think there's a lot of people like that.

Enjoy yore work very much. You’ve brought some interesting evidence that I’ve never heard. Being a ggg grandson of amassa Lyman and somewhat informed of his life, I don’t know if you’ll ever really prove your model. Like you said we need more time. Cheers.

Good discussion. I keep going back to d&c 84, that the whole church is under condemnation for taking lightly the Book of Mormon. What does the Book of Mormon say? Jacob 2 to the first generation of the Nephite Saints says to stop seeking for treasure. To the first generation of lds Sainta the Lord in the D&C says multiple times to stop seeking for treasure. What happened, the LDS saints speculated land, sought for treasure, had a bank failure and got kicked out of Kirtland (a covenant curse). Jacob 2 to the first generation of Nephite saints are told to stop their grosser crimes (polygamy). What then happened to the first generation of lds saints? Heber and Brigham and others with Cochranite influence brought polygamy into the church. The first generation of lds saints were then kicked out of Navoo (covenant curse) to wander the desert southwest like the Israelites in the desert to humble them. See d&c 124:48,50 the church is cursed for 3-4 generations. We are now at the end of the 4th generation and people are waking up from the curse of false traditions. Additionally in the Book of Mormon parallel, Brigham is the analogy of wicked King Noah ( both built lots of buildings, practiced polygamy and if the martyrdom theory is correct put to death a righteous man (Abinadi and Joseph / Hyrum)

“The Secret Chamber: Spiritual Wifery and the Doctrine of Christ” by Val Brinkerhoff I think was published in 2019.

Joseph Smith 3rd was Joseph Smith the martyrs son. He had many experiences and was prolific in writing them down. Follow what happened to Emma during the murder of Joseph and the exodus to Utah. "Joseph Smith III MEMOIRS" is a book you should read. He was 12 when his dad was murdered and he had a sharp mind.

Great explanation on the various positions one can take. The DNA issue not only proves that there are no known descendants of Joseph outside of Emma, but it also proves that these women were willing to lie. Once we know they lied about this, it calls into question so many other things that were said.

I was raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I’ve been inactive for a while now after learning about how the Church truly did go astray from the true teaching of Joseph Smith. As of recently I’ve joined the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and have been happier ever since 🙏

I frankly did not know one way or the other, whether Joseph Smith was a polygamist. However, I now believe that Joseph and Hyrum did fight against polygamy, and that church historical records were "doctored" by direction of Brigham Young after the brothers were murdered. I believe that Brigham was never a Prophet called of God, but perhaps a conspirator in the muder of the Prophet.

Hi Justin! I sent you my book "Joseph Smith, Jr.-Mormon Enigma Solved". You were about to release "Who Killed Joseph Smith II" when we visited. I'm not interested in you plugging my book on your pod cast, but I am interested if you have read my book and if you did, did it have any influence for you and in what way? I like your "Models" approach and your explanation about them. It just brings me joy to hear you and other LDS Saints changing ideology or at least considering Joseph Smith, Jr. was not a polygamist. I've been waiting over 20 years for this response of looking for truth for themselves. God bless your efforts. Bill E.

Good job. And I love the remix of “Home” by Depeche Mode at the beginning

If the Brethren "go all the way" and get rid of polygamy, it's so much more difficult than anything else like Adam/God and blood atonement. We still live a version of it by sealing men to women after their wives have died like Pres. Nelson and Pres. Oaks. It's a huge can of worms. And we can no longer say "follow the prophet, he knows the way"...that would also have to be tossed. It undermines a big part of what's being done today in the church--it's not just about the past. I do hope this is done though. No way did Joseph and Hyrum live polygamy. Thanks for this podcast. Very informative and interesting. Thanks for all your time and work!

I’m a denier!! I’m in the “Honest Prophet” camp. Appreciate all your work. The more I learn the more I love JS and hate BY. I heard JS was polygamous in 2013 when a friend told me about Rough Stone Rolling and I was blown away. Born and raised in the church and never heard it so I felt betrayed. My sense was that he might have been “sealed” to other women but never married or procreating with them. Kind of like when children are sealed to their parents, to create eternal relationships. Thoughts?

I talked with the second great grandson of Steven Markham who gave Willard Richards the walking stick the other evening. He still lives in Utah. Through that conversation I decided to look at Steven and discovered he could be my 8th cousin 4x removed. I did not realize this guy had ever been active in the LDS church. At first when I mentioned in conversation the new evidence regarding Carthage, and further said that Joseph Smith was likely sixth cousin or closer, he said he did not believe the traditional Carthage narrative but said, "Well, with as many wives as Joseph had, aren't we ALL related to him SOMEHOW?" I felt by this he was implying he believed that Joseph was a polygamist, but when I presented the alternate view, he accepted it readily without argument. I am not really clear for certain what his actual persuasion is at this moment, but I do know that while he may be a member of the LDS church, he's not completely loyal to them. He also talked about his second great-grandfather not wanting to marry one of his wives but indicated he did so because at least outwardly he was loyal to Brigham. However, sensing from his narrative of the situation, that Steven Markham might not have completely been onboard with Brigham, and feeling that a directdescendant was a good person to ask, I directly posed the question. My friend stated that he was not sure. He said he was wondering if PERHAPS Steven stayed with Brigham and stuck tightly with him, particularly because he was friends with Joseph from childhood, went fishing with him, they were very close, although it appears to me from my brief research he may not have actually joined the church until later in Joseph's life. My friend suggested that perhaps although Steven had doubts about Brigham Young, he thought that was the closest thing he could do out of loyalty to Joseph. I wonder if he has a point. Another interesting development for me in the last few years is my discovery that one of my helpers was half African American, yet was my cousin. This guy had some instability, and we didn't always get along smoothly, but I know he had a good heart. Anyway, Justin, when you were talking about the escape clause some try to build in to Section 101 of the 1835 DNC, I was reminded forcefully of a disagreement I had with this man in which he pointed out that I was using the word "but" in my argument and that linguistically, that word is primarily used as a cancelation word, or a word that puts qualifiers and restrictions upon what is otherwise being declared. I have found this to be in general true. If analyzing the language of Section 101 from that standpoint, the word but is the word used to cancel out the possibility of other wives, not to open up that possibility. Also, in that context, perhaps not using that word for the women makes more sense, since the issue at that time was not primarily women wanting plural husbands but the other way around. Also, It's worth noting that when talking about motives, I think a big one for me, though I understand I can't honestly be classified as a newmo, is the fact that Joseph Smith was willing to give his life, his all, for what he believed, so why hide Polygamy? It was illegal! So what! So were many of the other things he was falsely accused of. If in fact he thought it was commanded of God, why would he crumble under any pressure, including the pressure of the government? Technically, he was rubbing noses with the law when he spoke out against, and at least indirectly did things to undermine slavery and protect people who were at risk of being sold as slaves. In fact, that was a big reason the enemies gave for driving the people out of Caldwell County. So if Joseph believed in lying for the Lord to protect himself or the church, why in the world did he not secretly hide all these slaves, but never once prophecy or speak out against slavery? In fact, Steven Markham himself gave testimony that part of the reason Joseph finally gave himself up at Carthage was because he was taunted by his own people who said that he was running away from the law and putting the entire city of Nauvoo in danger. According to Markham's testimony, Joseph said if his life was not important to his people, the people who he said he was trying to lead in the name of the Lord, he didn't care to continue amongst us. To me, if Markham's testimony is accurate, this adds credence to the idea that Joseph and Hyrum were taken because of the stiffnecked nature of those they were trying to serve and guide into Zion, the Promised Land, just as Moses was taken in part because his people were not willing to accept him as a prophet. While there were other prophets after MosesMoses appears to be one of the greatest. My friend also had an interesting response when I predicted that Salt Lake would be a different place before it's all over, and that I believed the Lord has a major shake up planned for them. My friend said, "You know, it's interesting you say that, because 30 years ago just about everyone in Salt Lake was LDS, now it's probably about 10%." He also indicated that some 50 years ago no one ever thought to lock their doors, and shootings were rarely heard of, now they have one just about every day. Well folks, sounds a lot like the Gadianton Robbers of the Book Of Mormon, don't you think? It would be interesting to know how many active faithful members the LDS have lost, and to get a statistical idea of how many have left for what reason or category of reasons, and what reasons were most important to them. I also find it interesting that while many groups are finding it more desireable to remain on the fence or on the fringe of the movement, including those in the Community of Christ, there are still those who understand that to be logically consistent at least when it comes to practice, they can't be in between. Either Joseph was basically right or he was basically wrong, and if basically wrong, then everything the church is built on that is unique to the Restoration Movement must be thrown away. If he was right, then to be logically consistent, almost all of the changes made in the church after his death are wrong and must be questioned. Problem is, virtually no major institutional group today is willing to stand for Joseph being right, and while there appear to be a very small band of people who are faithfully accepting him as right according to Brigham Young's tradition, they are having it hard because despite Brigham's prophecies to the contrary, society just isn't buying. The division is becoming more ardent and intense, and although God is not the author of confusion and division, I'm convinced he is allowing the Devil to further divide us, so that those on the fence can be crushed in their folly, and only those who have the courage and desire to make clear cut choices for or against Him will stand, and those people will either be classed as sons of perdition, or as Saints worthy of Celestial glory, and those who die in the fray who cannot be classed as either because of lack of opportunity, God will judge according to his wisdom and mercy, but if they had opportunity, and were not valiant enough to stand for truth, they may end up in a lesser glory. I would love to know more about this new polygamy project and to be of help in any way I can. If you want a very good example of someone who left the faith perhaps because of the evil activities in the church, combined with the persecution, which in part was brought about not only because the evildoers caused the enemies to become more enraged, but also because God did not protect the church because of their unwillingness to build Zion according to his will, but later came back when convinced not only by other members of her family but by Joseph's surviving family that Brigham Young was the problem, look at the story of my cousin, Marietta Hodges. She lost multiple friends and family members before she reached adulthood as a result of the violence against the church, and even was compelled by her father to view up close the dead bodies of Joseph and Hyrum. As a 10 year old she proclaimed with absolute certainty Joseph and Hyrum would almost immediately be resurrected as Christ was. Yet the trauma was too much and she became a Methodost, apparently never intending to have anything more to do with the faith that had cost her and those she loved so dearly so very much. Even today vile slander is waged against her family, whom Brigham tried to completely wipe off the map. Yet they know, as did Joseph, that the Master said if they killed him, what more can the most faithful expect? They also knew that if Jesus could be betrayed to murderers by Judas, we can't expect better from apostles today. Another great site you missed is defendingjoseph.com

One interesting thought, I know the church has disavowed the majority of Brighams teachings but they have not quite gone that far on the priesthood/temple ban. They have come close and have disavowed the reasons for it and I really hope they take that final step.

This is a fascinating topic! I've been looking into it for some time. I admit from the outset I've not watched your other videos and have not yet read the comments here, but I plan to do both. You mention there are "consequences". What exactly do you mean? For me, the consequences of this (this is obviously brief) are that the church went astray when Brigham took over and went west! I know this is deep and for brevity I won't go deeper into it here, but you also mentioned "clearing" Joseph, Hiram, and Emmas names! Have you ever looked into the exchanges between Brigham and Emma? This topic is a deal breaker for many people with the LDS church! One can easily conclude that if Emma, Sindney Rigdon, etc were in fact telling the truth, then the Community of Christ (RLDS) is true! It's a really fun dive into the different claims of succession and prophecies from Joseph that were produced before and after his death! Years ago I came across the "transformation" as it's called, when Brigham showed up to the meeting to decide who should lead the church. The claims were that he resembled & spoke like Joseph, only to find out these claims were made after the fact and years later from people that weren't even there! Another example of "altering the record" to benefit Brighams claims. So, where does this leave us today? If you're struggling to wash Josephs purported polygamy under the rug, it's an ever bigger feat to make any sense of what went on afterwards (in the LDS church) and still maintain faith in the current church claims, leadership, etc. I don't say this to bash, I love the church and so much of what it does today, but the questions here are about simple TRUTH, and one must be prepared for what lies beneath all of this digging! I look forward to more of your videos.

Applying to one's opponents the pejorative label of "[BLANK] Denier," is a disgusting propaganda technique that leverages the well-established repugnancy associated with the term "Holocaust Denier," and is used to shut down dissidents without answering the challenges they pose to the accepted narrative. I am open-minded about the question of Joseph Smith's actual participation in polygamy but have not made up my mind one way or the other. I very much appreciate your research and commentary on these subjects.

Gwendolyn Wayne has a RU-vid podcast on this as well

I am a Newmo all the way, for a long time now.

I am so excited for this!!!!

with all the Mormon haters back in Joseph days, there was not one that called Hyrum a liar and a hypocrite for his conference talk, not one. If he was practicing polygamy and gave that talk someone would have called him out. Some, some where, but not one. Joseph and Hyrum were murdered because Brigham and others wanted him out of the way to carry on their lust. There were men who married wives on there way back to Joseph's funeral because they knew Brigham would allow it publicly once Joseph was murdered. If Joseph did practice and lied about it then everything he did was a lie. A prophet of God does not lie. So if he practiced then the church is a lie from day one. - but he didn't. Joseph tried to establish Zion. The Book of Mormon is from God. You need to look into why God removed his name from the church. Everything Brigham is evil.

I’m more in the “pious fraud” model but with just a little opportunist thrown in. People are complex and can have multiple reasons and those reasons can change with time. I think Joseph had an exceptional mind in its own way and he became convinced of the divinity of his own mind. But it was not immune to being influenced by his own desires and he could have over time become more egotistical as tends to happen with people who gain followers and influence etc. This probably stems more from my general loss of supernatural beliefs in general and that Joseph’s scriptural productions are not literal. Then with that frame, finding the best fit of the data. Although we disagree I enjoy your stuff Justin because you really seem to do your best to show all sides even though you are not unbiased. And you just seem like I good genuine person. Cheers.

The thing that solidified my belief that God didn't command Joseph to do polygamy was the book "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" by Richard and Pamela Price. I found it via a denier's video (don't remember who) and it's so full of source material that after the first volume I was totally convinced. I realized that church history makes a ton more sense if he didn't - the other way creates too much dissonance.

Don’t forget Val Brinkerhoff’s book “the secret chamber” released in 2019. He dug into Joseph not practicing polygamy and also those who did, had formed a secret combination or chamber within their Masonic brotherhood.

On Who Killed Joseph Smith part 2 you briefly showed and mentioned a talk by John Taylor given January 23 ,1848 where he justifies murder "in some cases". Is there any way I can get the text of that talk? Trying to find it online but so far no luck. Thanks Justin.

I remember when I first dove into things to understand what it was all about. My concern was that I needed to understand things from his perspective. I don't fit squarely into any of those models, but I would fit into the Unapologetic Prophet more than the others. All the other models require a heavy amount of denial of evidences. However, the understanding that I have reached does take all known evidence into account. I think you should coin what I would call the "multiple hats model".

Apostolic succession is an important doctrine from Brigham Young that still has to be done away with, not just the polygamy doctrine.

It's men that say they don't care usually

Polygamy is not the last one. The temple endowment is the last doctrine of Brigham that is still embraced by the church. It is held in very high esteem and almost universally applauded within the church, and even outside of it, albeit more grudgingly. Once you wrestle with polygamy, at some point you'll have to reckon with the temple. As for the NewMo name, why can't we just be called Mormons since the church apparently thinks that name is now an abomination? After reading Rock Waterman many years ago, I had a similar experience to yours, I was greatly relieved that Joseph might have been telling the truth. I'm not sure I know what the truth is, but I know that it rarely crossed Brigham's lips.

Yo Justin! I don't believe Joseph practiced polygamy. Call me a truth Seeker!!

Excellent presentation! So for me... my next question would be to investigate whether Joseph taught Apotheosis (which is what got Lucifer excommunicated from heaven 2 Ne 24) or was this another edit from Brigham? Scriptual "exaltation" is not Apotheosis!

Thank you Justin

I know that Joseph Smith did not participate in polygamy. In addition to faith and revelation, a lot of the clues you also mentioned convinced me. With the Adam-God doctrine you also mentioned and the status of Brigham Young though, I still believe in the truth of the Adam-God doctrine and I believe, that Brigham Young was a prophet of God, even if he was deeply flawed, much more so than Joseph Smith. This is where I have my difficulties in bringing these two things together. Right now, I don't think it was Brigham Young who was behind the murder of Joseph and Hyrum but I am open towards your „inside job“ model!

Thank you. Very interesting.

I have a lot to say on this subject of both marriage and plural marriage... but I found the explanation from the authorized and official biography of Joseph Smith (2012) in the appendix on polygamy to be fairly entertaining. I have a bit more to say on the subject though concerning Joseph's view on sealings and eternal marriage though as it relates to living the gospel, the higher laws, and "keeping the ordinances" in order to glorify the earth as ONE eternal family unit.

I'm convinced that Joseph fought against polygamy and he was a victim of a secret combination of Mason's.

Well… I first learned Joseph was a polygamist was in Tucson in 1995. A set of missionaries told me that the Lord to Joseph to help repopulate the Mormons because all the men were all killed and persecuted and there were not enough men left to they were told it was ok to have more than one wife…. But only for a short time. Then the Lord said that was enough. I believed them. Now I don’t. The LDS church denied my baptism 3 times (since I wouldn’t say Thomas Monson was a Prophet) so according to your verbiage I’m a NewMo? The Lord directed me to Denver Snuffer’s Second Comforter, where I was finally baptized for the first time in my life… unto Christ… It’s funny. Some missionaries told me… during that process I should lie so the church could baptize me. Seems they have a pretty sketchy idea of Honesty in the church that runs pretty deep when it’s accepted that the founder was a liar too… so that makes it ok to lie to get baptized. 😂

As far as I can tell, the polygamy denial movement didn't really pick up steam until after the Church essays came out in 2014 on Joseph Smith's involvement in polygamy. I would say most of the movement is a response to the Church coming clean about its history. Even Snuffer's movement seems largely motivated by the publication of those essays. It's possible the Church's essays were a form of damage control in response to Bushman's book.

Even if Joseph wasn’t a polygamist, Brigham young was. So you have to grapple with a prophet practicing polygamy anyway.

Master mason, Heber C Kimball's daughter, is the 14 year old.

The Pious Fraud and/or Repentant Prophet models sound most reasonable to me.

Where can I find the 23 times Joseph denied polygamy?

4. Now I want to tell about my own evolution. When I was 5, I remembered being with heavenly father and Jesus before I was born. I have always known that Jesus is the son of God, the creator of the world. Jesus called me to prayer when I was 12 years old and he become my personal teacher and mentor starting when I was 13 .I repented of my sins and and I was born again when I was 24. For the next 10 years, the Lord put me through the trials of sanctification. and Jesus came to me while serving in the Logan temple and promised me the Celestial kingdom and made my calling and election sure. The Lord confirmed my sanctification in 2004 when he called me to fast for 40 days and 40 nights, no food for 40 days.

I saw a video about Brigham You ng and Nauvoo with comments by historians. Leonard Arrington is the only one I can remember. Now I cannot find the video. I am sure it made 3 points. 1. While Joseph was in Liberty Jail Brigham led the church better than Joseph. 2. Joseph started polygamy because he had such sexual passion. 3. If Joseph would have just done what Brigham 29:35 said, he would not have died. Please help find that video. It has more meaning in light of the findings of Justin.

Justin, I think you misspoke when you said Brian Hales falls under the unapologetic prophet model. He doesn't like polygamy, doesn't want it to come back etc. So more under the reluctant model. But at the same time he says whatever the brethren says goes. He said as much with his interview with Michelle Stone. I wonder if the brethren came out with a revelation that Joseph never practiced it if then he would fall in line. If you are interested in learning more on people with the repented prophet model you could look to the book Joseph in the Gap by Taylor Drake, also his and his friend's podcast The Iron Rod podcast. Onewhoissearching blog, onewhoiswatching blog. I know they fall into the belief that section 132 is a Brigham Young thing. Maybe these guys would change their stance based on more sources for the "Honest" prophet model. I know they tend to lean on scripture prophecy as well and not just the historical record.

Joseph received section 132 as early as 1832. An angel came to him and told him to lay on the ground and with a sword went to kill him, warning him that if he did not start living plural marriage that the angel was to kill him on the spot. Celestial plural marriage was the reason Joseph was killed. He would go to men’s wives who only had a temporal marriage, and tell the husband and wife that the wife belonged to him eternally. Obviously, this made some men very angry, and eventually resulted in his murder. Heber C. Kimball was one man who gave his wife Vilate to Joseph. Joseph, seeing his loyalty, sealed Heber and Vilate eternally. There are many more stories like the above. Jedediah M. Grant expounds on this subject in the Journals of Discourses.

Polygamy never seemed right, to be a commandment from God for me. Today, I know its not of God. Its doctrines of men. And written scripture seems to have been changed over time to fit the agendas of the day, just as everything else in church doctrine. I have been set free by following ONLY Christ my savior!

I totally agree that Brian Hales wants it back. The man is an animal.

I am an ex-mo but I never had a problem with polygamy. I had issues with him likely being a con man. That's what evidence has shown me.

“Fletch” has one reference to the Mormon tabernacle choir. It’s not about polygamy. 🤦🏼‍♀️

How about this model... The LDS church lies about everything so this is probably a distraction by design. Can we really know the truth? This has nothing to do with salvation. Jesus saves! How did I stay in the church so long? Jesus, forgive me. Joseph, I release you. God is your judge. Brigham, the same to you. These videos are well done, very entertaining.

So, is it your belief that polygamy is of God or not? Did Joseph, the restorer, not teach or practice something that later became an essential part of exaltation…. - and then later became a sin? Is God the same? Or is he a God of confusion? Because this is very confusing.

After the 1980 in when the slanderous speaking Against our beloved Prophet. In growing In northern California , Not only we were a Branch.smith did not Do such.He was not When I grew up. The Secret combination Are among us.

Wait until you find out that the church doesn't even have priesthood due to Heber J Grant and Charles Penrose changing how priesthood is confirmed in 1921. You only ordained to an office and for 36 years (1921-1956) all manuals, printed instructions on how to ordain was just to ordain to the office. Go grab any of grandpas or great grandpas priesthood manuals and look it up yourself. I have my grandfathers from the 1930s and it says, ordain to the office. 36 years is 2-3 generations and Hinckley, Monson and Nelson were all ordained in those gaps.

I thought Emma was called to repentance by the Lord in D&C for not wanting to accept polygamy as a commandment?? Isn't that pretty solid?

Careful now I’m from the flds I left it and I’m proud to say I only have one wife but there’s a lot to be said about it

Fletch was a great movie. Hahaha

Occam's razor.

2. The next thing I want to address, I am going to call it the evolution of the Soul. I am going to define the soul as a single cell,. intelligent, self aware light being. Before the spiritual creation, before the physical creation, before there were Gods or angels, there was Elohim. Elohim is the unity of all the single cell, intelligent, self aware light beings in the infinite universe. The first evolution of the soul was spiritual creation. The next evolution was the physical creation. The next evolution, commonly called being born again, is the beginning of the transformation of the earthly physical body into a heavenly immortal physical body. The transformation is confirmed when one is sanctified. Sanctification is when one has the promise of Eternal life from Jesus himself. After that, exaltation is a choice. One does not even have the choice of exaltation until he has been sanctified. The goal of every born again Christian is to become sanctified. What percentage of Mormons are born again? Less than 1%.I am 74, Since I was born again 50 years ago, the only born Mormons I have met were converted and born again because of the preaching of the some other church, and they ended up leaving the LDS to join that other church. Not even the general authorities today have been born again. For sure, Joseph Smith was Born again and sanctified. I am not so sure about any of the other presidents of the church. I have never read about any of them telling about their born again experience. I did read about Heber Kimball's sanctification experience, which was similar to me own.

Yup I take the pious fraud position

The April 8, 1844 talk by Hyrum was not made to the general congregation. It was given to a group of Elders. Hyrum also admits in that talk to having two wives sealed to him for eternity, one on earth and one in heaven.

I have come across TBMs that when you show them the things Joseph and Hyrum said about polygamy from the Joseph Smith Papers their response is that you can't trust what it says, because even during the same discourse, there are journal entries that document that same discourse differently. So that is why you have to take the church's official position, because there is no clear way to interpret those journal entries.

Neofundalmientalists? Ha ha ha...not.

When you start your research with the assumption that JS is/was a prophet you’ll never be open to truth. Your bias will prevent you from looking at any evidence logically.

Which set of evidence do you pay attention to? That seems to determine where you land on this issue. You must ignore literally SCORES and maybe HUNDREDS of original journal entries (mostly by women involved) referring to plural marriage in Nauvoo, and pointing to Joseph Smith as being the originator. If you posit a conspiracy, then the burden of proof falls on you to continue your research until you have a plausible origin theory to put forward. It is not enough to criticize & degrade Brigham Young and Heber Kimball as the instigators: Why would the two MOST TRUSTED advisors to Joseph Smith cause his death? Joseph Smith had a powerful motive to keep the practice secret, and deny it publicly. When it did become public, it led pretty quickly to his death. Those of you who insist that 1. Prophets don't lie 2. Joseph was a true prophet 3. Therefore Joseph didn't lie, are insisting on a FAITH-BASED approach to this problem. You are quick to accept everything that seems to exonerate Joseph's involvement and ignore or dismiss everything that doesn't. Sorry I don't find this approach to history to be honest. More like wishful thinking on your part.

Howdy Davidic servant Elias the prophet here. Joseph Smith Jr. was NOT a polygamist. Brigham Young & company were thus saith the Lord your God. #watchmanfound #watchmanofephraim #kingDavidAPrince #cleansethechurch

3. You wanted to know my experience when I first heard Joseph was a polygamist. Let me set the stage. When I was six, my mother asked me how many kids I was going to have. I said, "At least a hundred." She laughed and said, "I pity your poor wife." I thought; "What does a wife have to do with it?" Then My mother got pregnant with my brother and I saw how much she suffered being pregnant and then I understood. Then I heard about my great grand father having two wives and I had a solution to having a hundred kids. The next time my mother asked me how many kids I was going to have and I told her, at least a hundred and she laughed and said, I pity you poor wife, I said, I have that figured out two. I am going to have ten wives with ten kids a piece. The she really really laughed and said. They do not let us do that any more. Talk about knocking the wind out of your sails. I thought, "It is not fair that another person can tell me how many wives I can have." And the still small voice confirmed it to me and told me some day I would have wives and many children. I was older when I heard about Joseph having other wives and I remember some other voice that was not the still small voice that tried to tell me Joseph did not have other wives, like it was a bad thing to have more than one wife. I quickly dismissed the voice reasoning that if it was bad that Joseph had more than one wife it would be bad for me to have more than one wife which I knew would not be a bad thing. So yeah, It took me a while to get used to the idea but I am OK with the fact that Joseph had more than one wife.

How come Hyrum's lineage continued with it? Just duped by Young?