RFM (Radio Free Mormon) explains who he thinks killed Joseph Smith. 

I am TBM and still can't figure out why you were x'd. It's almost like a threat to anyone else who would dare to think outside the current narratives.

Such a great discussion - contrasting each group's biases. The truth discovery (wilderness) journey is indeed difficult but SOOO rewarding! I can't wait for MOTIVE in part 3! Motive requires us to confront our traditions and the current narrative further - providing even greater depth to the wilderness/truth journey. Furthermore, as more truth emerges we see that it conforms more with scripture than the current narrative does. The last days are playing out exactly according to scripture. Joseph's name is indeed had today for both good and evil (depending on which group bias we align ourselves with). In the end, will we choose Christ or the arm of flesh? Thank you Justin, Steve & Peter!

It's great that people from different groups, even if they disagree, are talking about Carthage and the martyrdom. Because of the movie they're presenting their own theories, asking questions and looking at evidence, it's become a relevant topic of conversation and that's a step in the right direction for truth. I agree your theory is staying strong. I love that graph!

Great discussion. Thanks for putting this together. Hopefully, people continue to ask questions, seek answers, and this topic moves forward to a more clear understanding of what took place. Thanks for getting the conversation started. Thanks for all the efforts you guys have made. I believe, to answer your question at the end, that part of the reason to understand all of this links to someone seeing more clearly how the Everlasting Covenant has been broken and changed. These murders, in part, opened the door for that to be done amongst the LDS people.

It matters because members need to wake up to their deception distracting them onto their covenant path which leads to worshiping men and corporation and away from the pathway to seek His face to find salvation, exaltation and ascension.

Most fun I’ve had in a while. Appreciate your chart. I also appreciate dialogue vs polemic. Cheers fellas from the bottom right of your chart.

This whole idea of motive is the reason why people are waking up to the motives of polygamy, the killing of Joseph & Hyrum, the attraction of power over a religious group, justifying their sins to practice polygamy, and killing Joseph & Hyrum because of their belief in the blood atonement doctrine justified in their minds that the Smith brothers deserved it to “ Save their souls” for rejecting polygamy. These are some reasons people aren’t dropping the subject on what happened to Joseph & Hyrum & why polygamy was practiced. We can’t accept the idea that God would support murderers & adulterers to lead God’s people after the succession of BY. This is why I’m trying to get answers about the truth. I believe that God is inspiring men to seek the truth on these issues because Joseph & Hyrum are pleading with God to avenge the guilty party, & redeem Zion again, because it got stopped on the day of the Smith brothers’ martyrdom. The prayers of the righteous(Joseph & Hyrum) availeth much in the sight of God. This is why house cleaning of the church & society will begin at his church. It’s a mess now, all because of the difficulties that happened in the beginning decades of the church!

I am Exmo and fully support your efforts. Truth is vital.

I agree you can't trust your LDS leaders, and I love that you are pursuing truth in this way. So much twisting, I ran out of the LDS church with my hair on fire when I started really looking. Thank you.☮️

I consider myself ex-Mormon and I just want to say I don’t feel it’s fair to say that we throw everything out but are still align with the LDS church on polygamy. I think most of us exmos realize feelings or spiritual experiences are not reliable in figuring out objective reality. That does not mean we become mindless drones that just believe experts as like a god or something. Of course we all have bias, not denying that, but I think spiritual experiences only compound that issue. I just want to find the most likely conclusion based on the objective evidence and reliable methods, regardless of what my personal feelings are. That does not mean feelings are of no use, but just for subjective things like hope meaning and purpose. Not for figuring out historical events. My biggest issues with Joseph as a prophet is the historicity of his scriptures, treasure digging, and mundane/convenient/failed revelations. If Joseph’s polygamy is a hoax then it honestly would not change my conclusions on Joseph as a literal prophet. I agree there could be other motives than just polygamy. They could have just felt he was running the church into the ground regardless. I find it mildly frustrating seeing you applying critical thought, skepticism, evidence based analysis, only naturalistic explanations for the Joseph’s death. But when it comes to the scriptures, that you have strong feelings about, they seem to be exempt from the same scrutiny. Either way I find your research fascinating and your openness refreshing so pleas keep it up!

Thank you for the work you've done. I've now watched all of your videos and believe you've explored the forensic evidence with honest intentions and continue to be open to scrutiny and other options and have presented a compelling case. I served on a stake high council for 3.5 years and sat on disciplinary counsels, including for apostasy, and served as a bishop for 5 years. I am grieved that you were excommunicated for asking honest questions while falling short of insisting on your conclusions. I don't see how your efforts qualify as apostasy. You don't cover motive in your two documentaries, but the polygamy question is certainly worthy of exploration. It appears that Joseph was working as fast as he could to expose those prominent members who were secretly practicing, especially in the final weeks of his life. Other potential motives like "Joseph has fallen", finance, power, counterfeiting, etc. I'm less familiar with. That intrigue and secret combinations existed during the founding of the Church can't be contested. Just look at how many members of the Three\Eight Witnesses and Quorum of the Twelve apostatized and were excommunicated. It's a wonder Joseph got anything done.

I’m never mo. I just find all this stuff super fascinating.

I was pretty disappointed with how weak the detective’s theory was.

Remnant is an epic sounding term, but I think people would know more what we’re about if we called ourselves the Mormon Reformation or something. You’d be surprised how many TBMs actually think we need a reformation. Anyway, great podcast. Love what you’re doing.

JUSTIN'S INFO AND EVIDENCE IS TOTALLY BELIEVABLE PERIOD! WE WATCHED HIS VIDEO'S ON WHAT HE PORTRAYED AND WE AGREED WITH THE EVIDENCE...PEOPLE ALWAYS IGNORE AND SUPPLANT EVIDENCE FOR WHAT EVER THEIR REASONS. GOOD JOB JUSTIN!! KEEP UP THE GOOD INFO AND WORK THAT IS TIME CONSUMING! MY FAMILY ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT MAYBE IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB AND THAT BRIGHAM YOUNG SET IT UP PERIOD!

The polygamy issue is the number one reason for people leaving the church. The Exmormon community still has the Book of Abraham against Joseph as well as issues with the First Vision and Moroni.

This is a very important video because of the discussion about the TBMs, Remnants and ExMos. Thank you very much!

Qui bono? Who benefitted? Brigham Young, John Taylor, Willard Richards, and secret polygamists..

Mormon 8, was what tipped me off to what was happening with the church as well. Well a friend threw that into my face haha

Your theory is the most credible. And I watch a lot of investigation tv shows, one thing that I recall, is the murderer is known by the victims in like 90% of the time. So the inside job is more than plausible. The timing also to make a move was the best one. Both Smith brothers at the same place, and a lot of people hating.

Great insights in this podcast guys!

I'm an ExMormon, and I'd say the other ExMos I know would be less upset about the inside job theory being true than you portrayed in this. Brigham ordering Joseph's death still makes the modern LDS church look bad if they are being petty, but I think that most ExMormon's are more concerned with truth than being right at all costs. I think the Church's version of the martyrdom didn't make complete sense to me even when I was a member, but I saw it as mythologizing and it didn't weigh on my mind very much. I think that your theory and exploration of the evidence is better than the Church's, but I'm not convinced that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist or that it was why he was killed. One theory I have is that some of the mob members were armed with pistols that did not make it into the historical record to explain the caliber of weapons used, rather than the pistols in the room being turned on each other. Someone may have stuck their pistol through the door and under Hyrum's chin (which I fully agree with you was the entry for that wound and I disagree with RFM and the Church over). Another theory I have was that Hyrum's chin wound was fired by someone in the room by mistake while they were pressing themselves up against the door. Imagine how easy it would be to accidentally squeeze the trigger while trying to hold the door closed. Perhaps the accidental shooter lied about it, and the only other survivor thought the shot came through the door, or also lied to protect their friend. It would be easy to rationalize that the shot was an accident and the mob would have killed him anyway, so it wouldn't be too difficult to blame the mob. Both of those theories only explain Hyrum's death, so I'm still trying to piece together the rest of the events that followed. Thank you so much for exploring this topic, it is one I never would have considered without your documentary and the personal sacrifice you have put in to this project!

Preface remarks: I'm BIC and a returned missionary, but a huge, huge critic of the Church, and I really want your hypothesis to be true. There's a lot to like about it. However, I don't think that Richards (smarter than Taylor) would put himself in jeopardy by entering a pact with Taylor. The smart play would be to let the mob/militia do the dirty work. But to your point, have you done research into Richards' death? He died in 1854 at the age of 49. Knowing that secrets between 2 people remain secret is if one of them is dead. Perhaps Taylor murdered Richards. Who knows?

These are some of my favorite people all in one room

If you could post a link to your Venn graph so I can print it. I would love to have it to refer to. I can show my TBM family that I am not in a faith crisis. LOL

9 minutes. Not all TBMs believe Joseph practiced polygamy. Some still don't know about it or think Brigham Young started polygamy.

I really like your comment about a Spiritual Journey. The Truth is you need to find your own Testimony that is so strong that it cannot be denied, like the 3 witnesses who touched the Gold plates, they could never deny that. Your own Testimony needs to be that strong and you need to seek that testimony with all your heart mind and strength.

It sounds like I am a Remnant.

What a great episode!!

Amen! Truth is found within between you and God, you do not have to have someone between you and God! Thank you for exploring this and bringing things to light!

Great conversation and insights. I would add one more circle to the three [TBM, EXMO, REM] you had. And that would be GACECFB [general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn] (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:67)

What if WR and JT were poor shots and they fired at the cracked door and hit Hyrum by mistake? So they made up some stuff? Just my working theory! Great stuff guys! And taking on RFM is brave and wise.

When I watched RFM, I also felt he was being harsh with your explanation, and that his was ridiculous

Great video...good work. Another interesting statement made by Elder Holland reinforces your position and discounts the church's position from a General Conference talk he gave in Oct 2009 where he is describing the Carthage incident and says "Shortly thereafter pistol and ball would take the lives of these two testators." Did you get that? He says it was PISTOL AND BALL!!! Another readjusting of church history going against their own narrative...

Your interview with Clark Aboud presented a theory that seems more logical to me. It is also an inside job, but the series of events and evidence seemed to fit best.

I wish you had the guy playing Hyrum on his knees with his hands on the with his head back. I just wanted to see it. However, I know Justin you mentioned in the first film there isa shot in the ceiling. Is there more then one shot in the ceiling?

I watched mormon discussions video your referencing... i was seriously disappointed with RFM and Bill. Enjoyed you this video alot!

How about the SEALED Book of Mormon that brother Mauricio Berger is claiming to have in his power from Moroni in Brazil???

"getting Joseph and Hyrum [and Samuel] out of the way."

Almost didn’t watch this one because RFM seems angry and has these strange outbursts of meaness that is unsettling to me. I was so happily surprised! This is great.

Okay so typically what happens in law is that an expert witness is identified and disclosed by one side and given x-amount of days to provide a report outlining his/her conclusions. This typically done at the close of discovery so the expert has access to all the information. Once the expert provides that report, there is a window where the expert may be deposed. The expert report always aligns with whoever hired him/her, otherwise, there’d be no report lol. Instead, it would not be a testifying expert witness and the communication stays confidential. Okay, so RFM’s point that Det. Steiner doesn’t agree with Justin is moot. It doesn’t matter. In court, Det. Steiner would publish a report of his conclusions and it would agree with Justin’s theory of the case. That’s just how it works. RFM thought he was making a clever point, but that’s not how the system operates. Sure, on a small budget documentary, the expert may have his own theory at the end, but that would never be the case in an actual court proceeding. Hope this helps.

It doesn't say that the Book of Mormon is the fullness of the gospel. It says that it is the most correct book on earth. That's a huge difference.

Another missing element worthy of consideration is the expectation that the specific men from outside the door who would have been the trigger pullers would admit do having done something that could have incriminated them for murder.

Explanation is wrong about exmos. Exmos face a wide range of new options. I would say that there is a range of ideas about intuition or revelation or spirituality. Not "set in stone". Some require a new definition as a psychological phenomenon or new area. We reject contradictions. Consider the possibilities. Also, the first place I heard about Danite overthrow of Joseph was from Exmos- before I ever heard of your channel.

great job guys!

I like how you laid out each group of belief, generally anyway. I like RFM, I think he needs to go back to the drawing board though. I do sometimes ask myself, why am I so concerned about Joseph Smith? I think a big reason is that I detest polygamy and would like to see people detach themselves from it in all ways.

“If you want the truth, the leaders of the last people you should go to” true! They are trained to build up the church at all costs. That is sometimes different than promoting truth.

I don't know if the inside job is necessarily the only theory. After reading Willard Richards account, I am thinking the Carthage Grey's were directly underneath, a level below Hyrum and his gun discharged and killed Hyrum through the neck and nose.

Willard Richards talks about the Carthage Grey's gun going off. Did that shoot Hyrum under the chin?

I suggested you talk to Clark Aboud. You did not create a seminar at either the Mormon history association or john whitmer historical society or sunstone.

Would you consider please the scenario where Hyrum shot himself ? Ive posted this many times, never got any reply from you. If you are doing a true 'detective' job on what actually happened there, you gotta include the scenario where both Joseph and Hyrum killed themselves purposely, Joseph said many times, no greater love then one giving up his life for his friends, and the whole massacre scenario theory should include suicide, it perfectly fits, Hyrum's head wound is a perfect self induced headshot ( we even see it in movies the exact method where one puts the barrel up to his own chin in that angle) and Joseph did jump from the window purposefully, the shout "Im a dead man" makes perfect sense before one shots himself. Please include the scenario

3rd Nephi how oft have i gathered you like a hen gathers her Chickens i whole heartedly believe the Lord is gathering a remanent of believers in HIM

Regarding RFM's theory, what if you're pushing against the door, but your head rotates or turns to the left, or Hyrum slips as he's shot. Need to try and move Hyrum's head all over the place while you're at it. But I still don't think it works.

Why did they cut bloodiest part of Hyrum’s clothes out of it’s fabric? Why? And when was this done? Was the bloodiest part of Hyrum’s clothing cut out after the discovery of DNA to prove that it was possible if the martyrdom was an inside job?

Where was BY in the last 2 weeks of Joseph Smiths life?

I would likely fall into the ExMo category as you described it 11:34 however I’m a political conservative. A small “l” libertarian who is agnostic towards all organized religious regardless of their chosen deities. I understand your concept of trying to categorize but it’s probably not as simple as you’d like it to be. 20:05 As an ExMo I lean towards Emma’s truth and completely disavow BY. The reason I am attracted to Justin’s theory is because the evidence leans heavily in the insider theory being most likely. The Occam’s razor effect. 43:51 I have recommended Sam Fadala, research his background. He is a convert. He’s the leading expert in black powder rifles and often testifies in court cases.

Was Hyrum wearing the garment of the Holy Priesthood? Perhaps the angle is right but when the bullets continues toward the body, the garment of the holy priesthood protected?

Have you ever seen "The Lucy Code"? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-wf3MluItWQE.html Did you know about Hirum Smith being educated at Dartmouth?

Brigham & Richards taking the Mormons & fleeing the scene of the crime (Carthage jail) by going out of the country to Utah is another sign of guilt & motive. Just like a criminal running away from the police.

Everyone abandons their previous position just to dig in at the next one.

This movement is full of cool people, but it confirms my impression that Mormon belief is like all imaginative fan fiction of one kind or another - which is honestly why studying it is among my favorite pastimes as a 31 yr old MN Catholic lawyer and has been since I was a little boy who drove by the Billings MT, Temple.

Bullets are unpredictable; the exercise in trying to prove the direction, velocity of the bullet was futile.

I think the Church knows the truth in a conference talk Holland recounts the Martyrdom WITH PISTOL AND BALL

There’s another subset that I belong to. LDS baptized, believe JS was a true prophet, believe in the BoM, JS didn’t practice polygamy, yet the church He founded is still “true” and what God works with, with His authority still on the earth as far as man and those who hold particular offices are willing to listen and use it correctly and follow Him. A lot of cleansing has taken place throughout the generations as we focus on the keystone (BoM) and basing our foundation on the rock of our Redeemer. Which is why it is VITAL that each and every person get direct revelation for themselves regarding all things spoken from the “top.”

question: why would taylor and richards need to risk murdering the smiths when there's an armed and motivated mob there to do just that?

He would have to have John Taylor pulling his head back. 😂

I am ex Mormon and I think your theory backs up my beliefs. So I don't think that's fair to say of all of us.

Plus, the expert admitted both eye witnesses LIED! And why would they lie? It was a little low volume and quickly changed to another focus, but I took note of that.

Just remember John Taylor went to France a few years after in 1849, he was confronted with anti Mormon tracts saying they’re practicing polygamy, he debates the other preachers in France over this and lies about polygamy, saying it isn’t practiced and that night writes in his journal that he knew he was lying because he himself was already practicing polygamy but lied anyways. Taylor lies on record and admits it in his own journal.

Would be interesting to investigate more deeply where Joseph Smith and the early founders of the church got their knowledge. The LDS faith is more complete than mainstream Christianity in many ways but, because LDS doctrine fosters desire for godhood it is fundamentally flawed.

Was there someone shooting from the roof?

"it's impossible to know what happened that long ago" "Hind sight is 20/20"

Small caliber bullets lose velocity and penetrating power quickly while traveling through tissue. It is just as likely to have lost inertia and not penetrate the chest after going thru the door, then nose, tongue and chin. By that time the bullet is out of power

27 minutes. Didn't Heber J. Grant try to remove D&C 132 from the Canon?

Regarding the remnant and the non-hierarchy group. What this leads to is everyone is on their own spiritual path (spiritualists). I think there’s danger in that because it’s what leads to the Salem witch trials type culture where everyone becomes a law unto themselves, everyone getting their own spiritual answers, which either agree or disagree with another.

I couldnt make myself read the second book of Saints.

One thing that hasn’t been talked about out is suicide. What if Hyrum shot himself? Didn’t he have his own gun?

I have some ideas, just spitballing here... what if the mob came in with pistols and not rifles? What if they came in the door and shot Hyrum under the chin? Could there have been another person that came in? Just throwing some ideas that are out of the box. Any credibility to those?

no blood in the back, is it possible that it wouldnt bleed cuz it got like burned through or something like that? playing devils advocate

Where do remnants stand on the priesthood and temple ban on blacks as well as the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith’s teaching on the curse of skin of blackness?

The best take on polygamy and the Book of Mormon require no Restoration - Church History, the documentary evidence of the Scripture - including Christ’s words about the Church - require Catholicism

I don’t know if I’m the only one here who has landed in this spot for now, but I would consider that Joseph Smith’s murder could be an inside job, and maybe he never did practice polygamy, however, I have a big problem with everything that points to treasure digging and the strange ways the Book of Mormon came to be. Anyone else out there feel the same way?

22:30 I don't know if they would consider themselves "Remnant" category, but you have The Iron Rod Podcast guys. One of them, Taylor Drake wrote the book "Joseph in the Gap" (ex'd for writing the book)Their stance is Joseph was a polygamist but was wrong. Joseph was an intercessor. Also the blogger "onewhoiswatching" kinda falls under that camp as well. Their ideas are interesting and compelling. Maybe someone can convince them Joseph wasn't a polygamist. I'm still on the fence though.

To Me, Mormon 8 is the most important and simple scriptural "WAKE UP CALL" or proof of the church going astray. Isolated in Utah territory, disagreement with leaders meant having your throat cut by Brigham's Danites, including women.

I see parallels between your inside job theory and 9-11. In both cases there's a documented attack with a motive to kill (an armed mob or jetliners). So even if a few details seem hard to explain it's not logical to appeal to another independent cause unless there's a smoking gun. There's less special pleading involved in speculative details (like the chaos in the jail room) than invoking an explanation that equates to lightning striking twice in the same place at the same time.

As "Remnant," do you believe Joseph Smith's Council of 50 minutes where he plotted the overthrow of the US Govt and a Kingdom with HIM anointed King? I'm not sure how you can deny Joseph was getting nuts toward the end there. -ExMo genuinely trying to understand your position

I’m your unicorn. I’m a former TBM, read all the stuff, disavow Joseph, and lean conservative and mainstream Christian. I’m your unicorn 🦄

Truth matters! Joseph is a prophet and wasn't a polygamist. Brigham was an imposter.

What?!?! There was a hole in the ceiling above Hyrum! Not the floor. RFM's exit wound idea is ridiculous. Plus...everybody knows that the entrance wound is smaller than the exit would...which is what the skull shows. Duh!

the mormon church did in fact lie about joseph's polygamy for a long time, excommunicated people for talking about it, and only conceded the truth of it after it couldn't be hidden anymore.

I really liked your three circle graphic and description of the differing points of view. It would be interesting to see a civil intelligent person from each group have a discussion. And a question, do you have an estimate of the number of people in each group?

He broke his blood oath to the masons.

Haven't you read the Scripture where it says Prophets are subject to the Prophets.

Why would knowing who killed JS change anything?

Something to consider: Regardless of the teachings of each group, the question that needs to be answered is what was Joseph Smith doing with Sealings? Clearly he did connect with these sisters in Eternity by their own testimonies. Yes, it’s clear to those who recognize his honesty and true teachings of God, that he is a true prophet. If we remove ourselves from the our personal bias, how do we explain what we see being taught by Joseph Smith? What kind of example is it? What was being taught in the Temples anciently? (Nibley demonstrates that many of the ancient ordinances being practiced did make it into the modern Temple rituals) What do we see in nature? What does our Heavenly Father show us may exist in Heaven? We may not like it, deeper doctrines may be hard to get our head around but this idea of agency, choice, is important. Purity and free will matter. Do we seek to rise from Lambs into Lions? Truth abides in all of us and false notions abound. Each of us can and do teach both. Only pure revelation can clarify.

you guys are overthinking the exmo take. in terms of the truth claims any branch of mormonism makes about the supernatural, it doesn't matter who killed joseph. it's an interesting question, but without evidence it's just speculation. so it's pointless if you're trying to understand what happened in history.

How do you feel about David Witmer’s book to all believers in Christ ? I listened to a podcast that went over it and the Spirit testified that most of what he said is true

Wealth, power and all the sex that a man could want and more. I dont believe it had anything to do with God.

8 minutes. The Community of Christ does not believe the Book of Mormon is historically true.

Moving the goalposts again is see.