My favourite part of fighting HC is when he whiffs and instead of being punished, presses his magic HS button that has no startup and no recovery and punishes me for trying to whiff punish him. That's when I put down my stick, pour myself a drink, sigh and say "damn dude, that was all me, I'm the skill issue."
Honestly I think removing the RNG part of the reticle would be one of the least controversial changes they could make to the character. If the reticle always started outside the enemy character, and then homed in with a set speed for both steady aim and at the ready (when not in block/hit stun) I think that would be better.
@@petergoodspieces130 1. It has 1 frame of startup. Between the cancels you can do, and the way good HC pressure is structured, HC is almost never negative. Against HC, it's not your match to win, it's his match to lose.
"Every Happy Chaos wins the same way" is a big indicator that they need some kind of change. The flow chart is just so strong and works on every character. This kind of gameplay is enabled by over-tuned tools that do too much.
@D4C HEARTBEAM thats kinda true and false. The Nagos like Numbr, Hotashi and Iwan play differently and win differently enough that you cant really flow chart enough. You can at a lower level but... so can everyone. At a higher level there are distinct play styles difference that show they emphasize different values. HC is not like that unfortunately due to his design. The only choice HC makes at a high level is if they decide they want to win or not.
The one thing that i think makes Baiken less of an offender is the lack of free pressure at range It makes her super predictable when you force her to get in and an one with an answer to her H kagari has another up on her HC has steady aim Ram controls the air and the ground and then can toss the swords Nago has clone and beyblade Baiken just has to run up or airdash in before she can really be strong
The thing that annoys me about ram is how she makes other characters outmoded. I feel like there's a number of characters that are just like "why play this when you could play ram?"
Yeah I think this is Ram's biggest sin tbh. She's just very good in every situation. People complain about her corner pressure but honestly it's no different than any other character's win condition. She's at a heavy advantage (and should be), but there is counterplay. Her real strength is never being at a disadvantage.
@@bt_11 big agree, seeing baiken made me drop ino. And now, playing testament makes me wonder why I shouldn't play ram. This game is kinda cursed sometimes, lol
@@Pandaman64 I mean in this game she is an oki character (what do you mean ?). It's just more painfull because she has no unbearable weaknesses and she should not have imo. She still requires to play kinda patient, which is the defensive part (+parry). AND NO i'm not talking about them F10 and new celestial players forcing the offense. She can do it, but it's more risky than actually playing the dashblock/reactionary game, for the same reward. One or two nerf : they could make her conversions more situational after different mix with tether a bit like millia. Because the tether + tatami gives her similar reward regardless of the hit. And there is a guessing game even after blocking instant yousansen, like why ? Apart from that she is very strong and it's fine!!!!!!! Leo and baiken are the most balanced of the top tiers and arcsys should try to put down the other top tiers (HC, RAM) to the same level while adding fun stuff. Ram SHOUD HAVE TO use her actual mix (cuz she has a bunch) in the corner not just frametrap strike throw and 5D, that's what make boring. For HC what hotashi said: in particular HC should spend concentration on clone. MF should not zone/neutral control you and protect him self like that just because he broke the wall once. Actual checkmate situation, because he converts everything!
@@yoannsoh4009 I'm saying she makes characters with similar game plans irrelevant. Why would you pick ky and try to play footsies when ram has better buttons, and higher reward? Why play testament and earn stain state when you could pick ram, where her opponents might as well always be in stain state. Other characters strengths are too anemic to make them stand out from her.
13:02 the sad part is, it took 3 years of banning every good or viable tuner in the game in order to stop halquifibrax from being abused, and after all that time they still had tol hit it.
I would think the primary wall slump loop nerf to avoid boring gameplay would be making it unloopable: if you wall slump, the next time you hit that wall it breaks on impact instead of wallsticking. Prevents gluing someone to the corner, still rewards the player on offense with positive bonus but forces them back to midscreen, and hits everyone instead of just focusing on the one character who abuses the mechanic the worst right now so it's not leaving the door open for future characters to become just as degenerate in the same way.
The biggest issue for me is the ease of access certain characters have to Round Start > 50% Combo off of 5K/2S/etc. > Positive Bonus. The benefits of Positive Bonus are either too good, or the damage from the conversion is too high. When you combine that with the absurd meter gain off of special moves, Nago, Ram, and HC become in a class of their own. Characters that use normals in their BnBs are weaker as a result of system mechanics rather than their own merits (or lack thereof); Nago, with his weight class and huge health pool, often gains more meter being combo'd than the person actually doing the combo. RISC Gain is also skewed in favour of characters like Nago, Ram, HC, etc. because of their ability to extend pressure at virtually no cost, with minimal risk, leading to enormous reward should they be right. I've robbed countless rounds as Nago simply because I can afford to make a few mistakes; they can't afford to make any. The RISC Gain on c.S alone is often at least 25%, which is more than enough to kill a squishy character in one wall break combo, or put a heavy character in a completely losing situation. While changing these mechanics would vastly alter the game's flow, I feel that how the game is approached is governed by these systems, and, in changing them, it would then change how we view the various minute details in which they operate (i.e. would we be talking about Nago's 5K as much if it didn't get such massive reward from round start? (the answer is yes, that move is busted, but it's still worth looking at the system mechanics and adjusting them, just to see where the issue truly lies)).
A fun change for Ram's sword normals would be giving them an unique hurtbox which doesn't damage her, but it hits her swords, so it destroys them for a while and makes her unable to use them. So she doesn't get hit and punished for it, but you still get the option to counter her sword normals.
HELL FUCKING NO JESUS CHRIST "Oh how about instead of trading hits and taking some damage YOU LOSE ACCESS TO HALF YOUR MOVESET FOR 10 SECONDS" This is why people are not allowed to complain about Ram, because they have no fucking idea what they are talking about.
i think HC having ass normals supplemented by bullets would be genuinely cool. it would reward resource management and be interesting to watch. as it is he doesn't need to risk much of anything
That's kind of how the dog was balanced in +R. Zappa's normals are pretty unimpressive (his 6H is unsafe on hit) but the dog can cover him so long as you have it positioned correctly.
As Faust, the thing about Ram that frustrates me is that, in the one match up where he truly needs it, he can’t crawl Ramlethal far S. 6P actually beats it, but if Faust could just crawl then he would be able to fight her in neutral much more consistently.
Something I think that's interesting about Ram but not talked about much is how she has severely nerfed versions of her 5s and 5h when she doesn't have the relevant sword. If there was more of a reason for Ram to use sword toss outside carrying to the corner or even in neutral (for example to make certain combo conversions possible), the nerfed versions of these normals might be in play more and force her to play more carefully.
HC and ram as well just don't need to commit much to get there win conditions off, it makes it absurd to fight against when the best you can do to a well executed pressure from those characters is force a 50/50 between getting a turn or them straight up killing you, and even that takes fairly deep match up knowledge to do
I appreciate the MTG reference in this. This is a good example of nerfing something that doesn't change anything and it's still broken. Hogaak summer was a rough time for a modern player. Never forget ; _ ;
I said at the time and I still believe that instead of killi hogaak they should have taken the opportunity to let some other shit rock. "No ban" modern has been a more interesting format than modern for a long time now, and I would much rather them cut me loose and let me fight hogaak full power storm or eldrazi than police yet more fun. Unban ponder for a while and see if anybody gives a fuck about altar lmao
One of the things that makes HC such an annoying shit is that he's not just good at all ranges, it's that he's incredible at every range. The problem with that is that he always has the ability to fall back into other strategies if one doesn't play out. Zoning didn't work out, I'll just rush down. Rush down and zoning didn't work out? I'll just poke and control space with my long ass normals. Meanwhile we have May, Millia, Sol, etc. Oh, I didn't manage to get in close? Guess I'll die. It gets even worse when you take in wall breaks into account or a good burst. HC immediately switches to a different strategy and it's over. Dash and block baby? Oh, did you get in close? Too bad, my normals are better and I'll just rush you down now. Can't punish that which cannot whiff.
I hear people talk a lot about Nago 5K, and I believe them, but as someone who just started picking up fighting games twoish weeks ago and has played only Nago I guess I'm not entirely certain why. I get the usage for 2s, that button is obviously nuts, but I'm not sure what scenarios I'm supposed to be using 5K. It feels like every time I try it just gets canceled by something else, whereas 5P is fast enough to get me out of sticky situations. I fully understand that I'm terrible - I definitely go too ham on specual moves and don't use my normals to open the opponent up nearly as much as I should. Guess I'm just looking for some new player advice on controlling neutral with my normals.
its like a 7 frame far slash with no recovery and goes over most lows. If you've ever tried to approach a baiken she just throws far slash and its usually faster than whatever option you wanted to use, and nago is the same way. Its too safe to punish it for how far it goes, but honestly I get your confusion. I'm mostly salty about 2s like you
It’s faster than 2S and most 2K/2S/fS, and it goes over low moves (it beats ky’s 2D for example), plus it’s 0 on block which means you’re not at a disadvantage if the other player blocks it and you don’t cancel it into something else. It’s an excellent button to press in mid range in neutral, basically. It’s also extremely good as a combo extender. You can do 623H 5K fSSS for example, use 5K to juggle in the corner, and a bunch of other stuff
Another thing people didnt mention, you can easily do 5K -> 6K and be relatively safe due to the threat of special cancels, and confirming 5K gives Nago a ton of damage and net neutral blood combos. If they nerf 2S, he's gonna need his 5K since he has such few mid-range options that arent his stubby 2K but its definitely a very good move.
Easy stagger pressure, incredible roundstart, thick hitbox that hits weaker low profiles, incredibly quick recovery (if you press it twice you can punish some roundstarts that initially low profile it, like (if I remember correctly) Sol's 2S or HC's 2K)
As a floor 8-9 scrub and a former Brisket who has returned to the old me and is now playing a lot of Potemkin, the things that always get me with Ramlethal (other than Mortobato envy) are slightly different. Bajoneto, her sword toss is really obnoxious because the staggering of the explosions just locks you in jail super hard. Stealing the turn back from her (especially as Pot) is really hard a lot of the time. Because of all the juggles it also ensures she basically always gets a massive conversion into a wall break if she hits you with one. You'll just bounce all the way. The punishment for her not managing to jail yous IS harsh, sure, so I don't think it's super overpowered, just frustrating to counterplay The other thing is Sildo Detruo, her air leap thingy. It's a good and powerful move and all but... does it even have any recovery? Feels that every time a Ram derps and leaps over me, I'm there like "oh, yeah, here we go" only to eat a counter in the face instead. Again, not something super broken but which contributes to the oppression of her offense. As with Chaos, back when I was on Budget, nightmare of a matchup. Now that I've been distributing hugs, the armour in Hammerfall and Slidehead go a long way in creating openings to get in on him so, to my surprise, having less trouble.
Just a tip though, you can flick the wall explosions back at ram. Even though the sword is in the wall behind you, use flick at the right time and the explosion will flow through your arm and fire at the ram running towards you. Proving you can do this consistently already gives rams a lot more to think about before committing to their wall pressure
@@AtroSquared Yes! I recently found that out but between the fear of Ram rushing on the back of it and my own poor butter churning skills I'm still pretty bad at it. So loads more practice needed @HellecticMojo Oh, you misunderstand my problem, lol. I know it's +, it's bloody always Ram's turn until she goes to sleep, essentially. My problem is that when she WHIFFS that and crosses over, every time I try to slap and punish her I get boinked instead because recovery frames are for cowards, it seems
I want Nago to get pushed back further on regular FD off of everything. Beyblade needs a worse anti-air hitbox. HC just needs to be gutted. Give him 4 bullets, give him a blood bar on specials like Nago and he just insta dies if he does tap dust gunshot. His normals are too wild for him being a crazy zoner. His chest is stupid, so give him a t-shirt on all colors. Ramlethal is mostly fine with reduced damage across the board. The only nerf I'd personally like is that she needs some recovery frames on whiff flip kick so I can get a juicier punish for predicting/reacting random rams trying to abuse that.
Nice video, Hotashi. Whiff in to gunshot is the dumbest shit in the game and is the only reason I dislike playing against HC. Fuck that shit man. Don't really mind wall slump loops. Having a bit of setplay like that is fine. HC's other tools just make it way too easy to get to that point. wrt Ram, I'd rather see her get a significant damage nerf (higher proration on everything) if only because it will swing the RPS out of her favour across the board and I actually think she's incredibly fun to play right now. That said, I play Testament and that MU is fucking cursed so if it gets better, I'll take it.
easy way to fix HC wallslump is to make his 6K trip them putting them airborn just above the ground. That way it will airstick while not allowing combos out of it. Edit: I agree with most everything else other than combos out of jabs. I think that is cool and he should have that since he has to spend 2 bullets and its a low damage starter. I think if you affect the rest of his kit, leaving this as payoff for abare on a character with no defense feels good.
The don't care about strength, they care about fun. I think HC will get nerfed because of his wall slump loops, but I don't think Ram or Nago will be nerfed much.
For me I think that acces to meter and damage are a big problem as well. Most of the characters that are considered "good" gain and spend meter pretty well then badsically run them over by looking pressure. Ram, Nago, and Hapoy Chaos just do that in a very safe way where other characters like Baiken and Chipp are more volatile up close. And then when it comes to damage a character like Ram or Hapoy chaos shouldn't be almost impossible to brawl while also being able to do 50 to 60 percent om every hit. I'm a baiken player so some of what I say may be skewed and it's my opinion and some people may have others so these are just my thoughts
HC main here, I would say you're right on target for 2k and maybe 2S, though if I were to nerf one it would definitely be 2k first. Also even though gunshot on whiff hitting is supposed to be random and therefore a risk reward tactic (you give up your ability to block incoming hit in exchange for the chance to hit them out of it) I've found its somewhat reliable in some situations and the link into steady aim makes it absolutely fucking absurd. As someone who actually plays him, I think the most acceptable nerfs would be to 2k and guarantee that just pulling out the gun will be outside of the opponent's hurtbox unless they've already been hit. Honestly I'd probably nerf more than that tbh, but he's just designed in such a way that you'd have to completely kill him to not make him an absolute demon.
I would rather see a recovery increase on ramlethals sword normals than a hitbox change for 2 reasons. 1. It keeps the identity of the character. Modern fighting games make pretty much every character have "fair" hitboxes and hurtboxes. It's rare to ever see a character that has a disjoint worth a damn. I think that keeping that aspect of the character makes it interesting to fight against rather than just being another big normal. 2. The hitbox nerf won't help much in the troublesome matchups. Sure you can poke her for some chip. Most characters can't get anything meaningful from a counterpoke at that range; not even space. You'll get a small amount of damage and end up at anywhere from -3/+3...in her optimal range. if you try to dash in you'll end up having to block a f.S ->5H anyway and you're back to square one. However, a recovery increase means that instead of getting insignificant poke damage you can use that time to literally rush them down and get some counter offense going. She gets to keep the interesting part of the normals which is their decent disjoint, and the opponent gets the chance to close in if she just throws them out without thinking.
As she is now, leave disjoints because that's her identity, huge swords you're not supposed contest easily; WaySlower 6p totally agree. Hit her in the mechanics, but make them interesting. 30f sword toss but guard crush & on block, kd on hit. more visual tells on startup. No Auto-recovery. Manual recall 30f command ground-ok only. lower damage overall so we dont have stupid round starts. I'd like to main ram again & still think it's ok for her to have strong stuff, but id like her to have weaknesses not just for the sake of being weak, but that you have to play around as a part of her gameplay like everyone else. Something making her fun. Not ONLY nerfs without compensation.
@@navidtahmasbi2870 you know I was going to simply not bother, but just because I'm a hater I've checked these nerfs you so speak of and I've read every single patch notes, looking for Ramlethal changes. Her super was only nerferd once and it was the startup. And that wasn't a targeted nerf it was a global one. What I did find thought were that most of the changes were buffs.
@@navidtahmasbi2870 read the wiki, no picture of that hitbox in the history of the page, read all the patch notes (again) no mention of hitbox nerfs only recovery. So 2 questions: 1. Was that a beta thing? 2. You honestly think she really needed that?
As a Ram player... god I hate fighting I-No xD It's basically 50-50s in neutral until someone explodes. And while I-No players basically huff 50-50s to get high, us Ram players would rather delete the game than do anything even vaguely resembling a guess.
HC is just best in class at zoning, and best in class at mid screen/up close pressure. I'm ok with threading the needle to get in when he's shooting at me, but for him to have the God 2k and 2S to contest coming in at him, that doesn't sit right with me. Even if he screws it up, he can make it safe by shooting, then it's his turn again for another 15 seconds. It's gonna be a challenge to bring him back down to Earth. I don't want him to be trash, but he can't stay this way. Also surprised you didn't bring up May.
Big names have just now started picking up Baiken so maybe next year we’ll see how relevant she is. I don’t even think she’s cracking up top 8s in major tournaments yet.
Happy chaos nerfs, you can't cancel into 5H stance change, increase the recovery on his pokes on whiff. Happy chaos buffs, make darksouls roll faster and buff the horizontal dimension of the hitbox and on block frame data on his other stance change (236S?). Basically make him a strong zoning and pressure character but make stance change and mid-range a commitment. The faster roll would create dynamic decision making between using fast but punishable pokes or using the slower roll movement to attempt to gain access to his strong pressure.
The issue with nerfing HC is you're nerfing a character with 0 defensive options besides a clone that requires health to use. That's sort of the reason why he's so oppressive, imagine how Chipp or Bridgets offense would be tuned if they didn't have DPs, they'd have to make up for that significant lack of a defense by having attacks that strengthen their gameplan. You can tell this is what ArcSys went for by giving him is Roll, which would be completely useless if he was meant to be a zoner. They want him to be a super offensive character that goes hard during their times to attack because when its their time to block shit can go wrong very quick.
For Happy Chaos, I'd say he could keep his busted normals if he had to care even a little bit more about how many bullets he has at any given time. Full gunshot combos with just one bullet in the chamber constantly reloaded mid-combo is stupid.
I believe wall slump goes against the whole philosophy of why they even added Wallbreak into the game, they didnt want those corner situations that happen in every other fighting game to happen where some characters win condition was to get the corner and just lock you up there, Wall break was so a neutral reset could be achieved while still giving an advantage to the one breaking the wall yet Wallslump completely goes against that concept.
baiken with parry prc, a 9f fS and a 4f normal feels like a war crime. Tatami straight up deleting some projectiles is also kind of funny but I haven't actually had a lot of experience with it so all I'm hoping is they don't turn it into lvl 3 Goldlewis drone next patch.
The intro really puts into perspective why I hate watching HC but enjoys Nago, even if they are both top tiers. It's either mid-screen pressure into crossup into super wall break into positive bonus into win, or just wall-splat the whole round into win.
I don't understand why watching a character would be boring just because they are top tier lol. HC has really cool mix and combos, I think he's one of the most fun characters to watch.
@@HydraGR Never said that he's boring because he is top tier. I enjoyed watching Leo and Nago (unless it's nago vs a squishy character because of guts and passive meter gain advantage) who are both top tiers. It's just too predictable how a match will play out once it's in HC's favor. Sure he has cool mixes and combos, but no combo is fun to watch if they almost certainly results in a wall slump or super wall break. And mixes are not fun if one mix without meter can eat more than 50% of your health (think of GL).
@@devondorr8212 Fair enough, to each their own I guess. Funny you would bring up GL btw since he is also one of my favorites lol. There's just something very satisfying to me watching a good GL absolutely demolish someone. Honestly I like most characters, but HC having such creative mix and combos is definitely up there for me, as long as he doesn't do too much full screen zoning.
@@HydraGR GL is fine if the opponent actually knows how to survive and punish BT mixups. Otherwise a one-sided match is always boring and frustrating. Still could be a pain to watch if the opponent doesn't have tools to properly punish thunderbird.
Is HC's 2k a problem without his insane conversion ability? It's basically the same normal as Testament's, a tiny bit weaker, and while Testament's is very strong and part of what makes the character good getting some space and a succubus out is reasonable reward for a mash on defense as opposed to a corner to corner wall stick.
I think the biggest problem with Nago is that is disadvantage state (blood rage) leaves him at too much an advantage, the fact that you will lose 80 to 90% of your life for getting hit by his super is stupid as hell. He shouldn't rewarded for playing sloppy and not managing his resources
I don’t get why people are stuck on this idea that if there is a character at the top of a tier list, they need to be nerfed to the ground. You can have fun characters at the top of tier lists that are fun to fight against and don’t feel unfair to lose to. HC is not only unfun to fight but also it feels like shit to lose to him, this video is great because I feel like you can nerf these characters and still make it fun to play against. I think the Ram nerf is probably the only she needs, she doesn’t win at round start anymore and can’t whiff it from anywhere.
Just change ram f.s into the equivalent of sols 6h is the lazy way I think about it . Something that might be relevant to the conversation is something I really detest "iimplied/nonexistent resource management" like to tl;dr the point is that its seeing happy chaos have resources to control yet easily gets by just fine with methods to recover ir, Ramlethal having a "sword toss" mechanic despite it never being a relevant factor because she only does so when she has you in the corner which is a part of her win condition in strive.
As a happy chaos player I agree with most of this but I'm kinda scared with how they nerf slump setups go if they nerf his normals. I think I have an idea though as a net positive (besides the obvious damage nerf) TL:DR Happy Chaos slump rebuilds more wall health (could actually apply universally).Like 3-5 more hits. (more than HC normal corner combos) But the next wall slump untech time gets shorter by a significant (at least half) amount until you break that wall. Incentives him to actually break the wall and move onto the next phase and use the meter. 1 Slump each wall per round (resets on wall break) Basically the reason hc do them isn't cause it's fun but cause it's basically the most meter efficient way to actually do things since his 50/50 mixups cost ~3bullets to do so. Unfocused he uses about half his gauge. And setting them up from full wall health takes 2-3 bullets during a combo. Or 50% of concentration So then you set it up as you are about to run out 1 of 2 resources. Then get most if not all of it back. Run 2-3 mixups. (If any hit stop after 3 hits) Build meter to keep offense or convert into super for ko. But it's only cause how the wall works means any slump setup results in basically no damage and therefore, no meter gain. Where he is ridiculous fwiw... So you have to just do it over and over while you try to build uninteractive enough setups to keep him net positive in his mixups regardless if they are blocked. Cause for some reason gun flip is + (loses to 6p but he also has bullet so.....). So when you block 2-3 of the slump out the chaos has like 1 bullet left and 70 tension and like 1/3 of his concentration. Or you get hit for like ~100, he builds 20 tension and resets the situation so he does it again and again.. and the game incentives you to simply do this until super/rc will kill because of the amount of mix and setups he has. And the fact it's literally the best way to get resources. Literally even better than his supers. As he can get both. So as long as he maintains a similar level of reward he would gladly gets positive bonus and do his safe jump > pressure. And with how scaled the combo is? Probably won't die from the mix. But if you get hit later on during pressure? (Say after an rc) Now he can't reslump you and start all over again. If he uses meter before setting up the slump? Probably won't get the meter to super post combo. So they might save it and 2d knockdown instead Adds a lvl of thought to otherwise streamlined game play Could also lower the wall damage on bullets done near the corner vs airborne opponents in general. His actual corner combos wall splat way too early.
I do think 2k and 2S are a tad too good mainly because 2K reward is insane not actually that good of a 2K frame data just ridiculous he can poke with that reward on such a low profile. I think it's fine if he just gets the gio treatment and gets a real hurtbox lol And 2S has no lingering hurtbox despite the range it forces you to play at. So just add one along with no gunshot on whiff and it's fine. Already is -7 Besides that the increases gravity scaling on P normals would suck but I understand. I think focus should be like 4-5f faster though. So that charged gunshot into focus is -3ish. Just so he can use that as a blockstring ender to avoid burnout without meter and use it little easier in combos. Same with super focus. Only cause if you really know how to RPS vs that move with FD? He's not actually + enough to enforce his turn off normals or convert with out using a bullet. (he's only +2 off 6K and +5 of 6S on block) Then as long as rng tracking gunshot on whiff is removed? then curse > air gun or 214S is excusable.
@@AstralTaurus "knocks me down, puts a non-interactable hitbox on me" Isn't that just a meaty? So meaties shouldn't be in Strive? Or is the concern *only* about the blue guy?
@sushipantsu you can interact with some meaties, which is why I specified "noninteractable". If someone just iads in you can still use some reversals and/or options that boast a lot of I frames. I'm talking about "you cannot dp, reverse super, mash or backdash. You HAVE to block and then you immediately get hit with a high/low unreactable over and over until you just die". I'm not against oki, but man I never liked dealing with that particular type of okizeme/setplay lol
@@AstralTaurus Well lucky for you you can use a reversal against Chaos when he wall slumps you, since the wall slump starts with a meaty. You can mitigate that as Chaos by safe jumping, but if you do that you don't have time to replenish enough resources to continue the loop any longer. You can also FD the close slash to prevent Chaos from doing a close slash into 5D in a sneaky attempt to recover more resources etc. So there's definitely RPS/interaction involved here. I'm not sure why the wall slump in particular has become the main thing to talk about when complaining about Chaos recently lol. Also, one thing I have noticed while playing in tower, a lot of players get impatient when you do the wall slump on them and they start mashing on wake up which is the worst thing you can do. When people patiently blocks or uses reversals they do much better against it. Sometimes outright turning the entire match around since I waste all my bullets on someone blocking the mix.
With zatos wall slumps I think they're fine, they're pretty specific and there's only one shot of doing it. Hc being able to mix AND have multiple chances of doing it is what's problematic
"They're gonna nerf this or they're gonna nerf a lot of things for Happy Chaos." I wish they nerfed 2k and 2s. (Also removing rng shot cause even I’m angry when those hit.)
I think the comparison to card games isn't really fair to the genre of fighting games. In a card game if they play that op card that's that. Unless I got lucky enough to have a counter then I'm screwed but any attack's in fighting games are high, mid, low, or throw. A card can completely rewrite the rules of the game. Wallslump isn't rewriting anything and it isn't even close to broken. Its corner oki. Which is something every single fighting game has. Happy Chaos is very strong but nothing that isn't seen or unknown especially when you fully compare him to similar characters like Zato. Also Baiken and Ramlethal didn't get as much performance because everyone has her matchup spreads fucked up. Axl does good against her and is in fact one of the few characters to meaningfully stop her sword toss corner pressure because of his 7f 5p. Baikens neutral isn't great she pretty much needs meter or she's playing a very normal game of neutral. Don't even need to be Axl to zone her out and most players pretty much use Gun Super to carry them in neutral since jS can only help so much against fireballs, top half invul strikes, air throws, screen clutter, and even has to face against better air to airs like Goldlewis jS. Then against Characters like Chipp and Millia all she has over them is damage but she has to somehow stay above them to have most her air normals hit. In general every character is jumping a lot thanks to air blocking and she loses a lot of air to air interactions unless she yolos with a jD or raw Yozan. 14:40 "We're going to look back and realize this character made no sense" if anything the opposite.
I love playing as Happy Chaos, but I use everything available, crossups, mixup, bang bang unga bunga, you name it. But seeing HC players just purely corner pressure or just zone is so goddamn boring to me. I dont even like doing that. I may get punished down bad for doing it, but at least you and I are both having a good and fun fight for what Guilty Gear is. And that is bullshit blazing. "I'm not here to win, I'm here for the pleasure. Not of the fight, but of you."
I'd prefer health nerf over anything for nago tbh. With less health he'd actually care about getting hit and the super "fuck it" playstyle wouldn't be nearly as consistent.
What if 6k for HC became a small launcher > soft knockdown so that those setups didn't exist anymore? Then at most it would probably be only one setup seeing as it would take an ungodly amount of bullets to do it? Just wanna throw out that idea.
I think 2H is pretty in line now. It went from "fuck that half of the screen" to a call out anti-air/burst safe combo filler. Whiffs on all crouchers and is quite punishable on whiff.
@@Kan_in That's actually asking for too much imho. A hitbox/framedata nerf is just changing some numbers. A visual change would also require asking an artist to go edit the animation. You'd go from seconds/minutes of work from a single dev to an hour or more for possibly more than one dev.
now im for everything ya said, but; until *The tcg community learns to optimize their deck space for given problem cards instead of paying actual thousands to go all in on one youtube combo (just to lose to the one lone gamma at the start of set up anyways because no one knows how to properly bait with rite of arme)*, the mine shall confide
HC Gunshot was the most obviously over powered shit in the history of FGs. The instant the idea was suggested during the character's conceptual design phase, everyone in the room would have known it would be overpowered. People who have never played a fighting game in their lives before could immediately see how this is overpowered.
"it's just oki, some characters have better okizeme than other" I guess that makes infinites okay then. Who knew that old kusoge where you could just infinite people to death with 1 button after a knockdown were actually the pinnacle of the fgc. It's just good oki after all. Never get knocked down. Easy. Skill issue. The answer should be obvious. Yes, kill wall slump for zato and bridget and anyone else. Wall break as a mechanic exists for a reason, wall slump existing is an oversight at best.
It’s likely not an oversight. During the betas, Katano specifically stated that they want players to have the ability to choose whether or not to break the wall. This was back when everybody complained about the mechanic. They probably kept wall slump in due to wanting players to have that choice. The issue is that it’s not used well by most characters. Which is where the oki thing comes in.
@@Time2GoHam1995 the reason why i think it's an oversight is that they were aware of it, but didn't think it through. Which is why we're here now, watching wall slump loops on a competitive scene and dying of boredom.
@@crimsonpotemkin From the perspective of GG in general, it doesn’t seem that much different from oki in older in games, except only a few characters use it well. Like Millia in xrd knocking you down in the corner and then doing overhead/low after putting down disk or sacred garden. Watching people repeatedly eat the same mixup loop into the same exact situation is pretty standard. HC stands out though because he already has so many tools on top of it.
@@Time2GoHam1995 The difference is that the wall literally exists to prevent that looping okizeme situation from happening. They were trying to bring an end to something that turns a lot of people off of older games by introducing a forced return to neutral (similar to how in DBFZ you get a new opening cutscene after a KO rather than the other player just getting a mix up as you get thrown onto the screen like in Marvel). As it stands it just means that select characters get to play Xrd while everyone else is playing Strive.
@@arachnofiend2859 That is kind of true. However; the dev statements seem contradictory. Katano stated that they want players to have the ability to choose whether or not to break the wall. Basically, have a decision to make when it comes to breaking the wall. It’s not really playing xrd as there is a trade off. In its current state, it gives the player on offense, extremely safe, low risk but low reward offense. The player is trading the direct reward of significantly more damage, extra meter build+a defense buff+a damage buff and all of that from positive bonus for the safety and consistency of the wall slump. Right now that consistency and safety is more valuable, especially for a character like HC. The best decision is obvious for characters like HC and Ino though.
HC has one other option i think is way too good personally which is super focus that super is fucking insanity, 11 total frames for an instant win con. something has to give with that super.
Hc and nago needs a bigger nerf than ram Ram doesn't have a dp nor a command grab So she needs 5s and 5h to keep opponents away Meter gain nerf on ram seems more reasonable to me
Baiken is definitely not overpowered. Not a single of her moves. She might be good close up but has a very hard time getting in: runspeed is meh, none of her normals take her forward except for 6K. Her best option is to IAD jS which is very 6p-able and reactable. Also she has waaay too many bad MUs: Nago, HC, Ram, Bridget (imo), Anji, I-no, Axl, Ky (imo), Testament, GL Also she might be very threatening with meter, but her meter generation speed is average at best.
All of these characters are so much fun to watch for me since I don’t play this game competitively. I like watching HC setplay people because it looks cool. It also looks cool when Nagoriyuki does his really cool sword slice pressure with the command grab and specials mixup. I think people who play this game a lot/competitively don’t enjoy watching it I guess? Idk. The coolest thing about guilty gear is how oppressive and powerful the characters are and I guess making them less of that sorta removes the assumed identity I think this game has from a spectator perspective.
At this point I just shrug my shoulders and say fuck it. The game isn't balanced well and it's not ever going to be. I look at it more as though you can play on easy mode by choosing certain characters or make it more challenging by choosing others. Either way I'm still playing it so....🤷♂
The most curious thing about Happy Chaos is how much Japanese HC players have been strugling to win consistently since the last patch, including myself. Maybe some of us have finally realized he didn't get nerfed, but during Evo 2022 Dogura already gave up on HC and he was actually rooting for Umisho to win the tournament because he wanted to see a "weaker" character to perform well. I can see how HC is broken if you explain each individual aspect. But it just boggles my mind how we are incapable of adapting to new changes. It almost feels like he is only "theoretically broken" or something.
Can someone explain to me why HC 2s and 2k are broken? What’s different from other dlc 2k? And why is 2s better than any of the other 2ss’? Ram fs hits HC 2k and 2s Maybe Im taking an extreme example though
the problem is he gets full combos off them. and in a game as explosive like strive, with a character who has that good meter gain, getting hit by 2K can literally lead you into "guess wrong on the next hit and you die" situations, meanwhile all the risk he took to put you there was potentially whiffing a 2K that has low profile anyway
Ram js fs and 5H normals are so shameless that my friend switch to her when they lose to me and start spamming js fs 5H. Of course I still win since we had a big skill gap but that's how obvious it is. Even new players still half confused about the game knows for sure those Ram normals are broken.
I'm not a great player, so I can't really comment on specific buttons that are broken. But getting full carried to the corner on hit every match against HC is NOT fun. It feels like he is playing a different game.
I think HC should be rework to be more like a Sagat of Guilty gear keep the normals but make the gun a projectile make the ball add some tracking to the fire all and the aim stance makes his projectiles do way more chip and and move fast and.make that shit a manual aim like straight and up and down so you kinda have to actually do the inputs to do some shit but also doesn't make him lean on hit scan aim bot which is a fucking awful Mechanic for a fighting game.
I like the ideas for the nerfs but I think this would make HC even more at disadvantage when it comes to defense. I’ve been maining him for a bit and in my experience especially against Ino he can’t really get out of pressure. The options he has are YRC and burst but if round start is lost your forced to lose what I would say is HC’s most valuable resource.
