Rebuilding steam locomotives is a big deal. Let's talk about it. Visit the channel shop: hycetrains.com/shop/ Join my discord: / discord Become an ES&D Train Crew Member and get extra perks! / @hyce777
Apologies on the autofocus having a stroke on a few shots - this was the second outing with the new camera and I'm still learning the quirks. I appreciate you guys for bearing with me!
Well, if you need to take a page out of the RU-vidr "AvE" or "Arduino vs Evil" to learn how to deal and fix auto focus. You have to say "Focus you fack" with a Canadian slang to make them behave! Great success amongst other RU-vidr's who has tried the same as well :D
Can you do a video of the calculations and some more videos as the restoration progresses? As an engineer (mechanically speaking) anything you are looking at specifically or any surprises in the restoration...
A little more history- The Locomotive Inspection Act of 1911 established mandatory boiler inspections and working pressure x 4.0 was considered good design practice by then. However, it was found that roughly two-thirds of all locomotives inspected were operating at a lower safety factor. It was decided that 3.25 would become the standard for locomotives built before 1912, with a gradual increase phased in over 10 years. Between 1912-1922 locomotives which could not meet the new standard were removed from service, derated to lower pressure, or rebuilt with new boilers.
191 isn’t restorable, but I’d love to see a mechanical assessment of her condition. The loggers in Wisconsin left her pretty beaten and I’m curious to see how badly. I’m going to leave a quote from who I presume to be the engineer of the locomotive: “The boiler is busted in a place or two, The heads hold on by a rusty flue, The crown sheet is burned and the wheels all flat, A side sheet blister like a derby hat, The whistle is missing and so is the bell, The tank’s all rusty and leaks like hell, And boiler patches-she has a few-For I think she was built in Seventy Two. The cylinders are oval where they ought to be round; One end of the equalizer drags on the ground. I tried to run her and got her hot, Every seam leaked and at every spot. I opened the throttle with a good track ahead, She gave two exhausts-groaned and went dead. The cab is like steel but it’s made of tin, But she’s a d___ good engine for the shape she’s in”
From what I could find, this is a real assessment of what condition she was in. I found it in a book about the Thunder lake narrow gauge. (Literally called Thunder Lake Narrow Gauge by Harry Huston.)
@@DeliciousBoi I do agree maybe it's time for a few final steam train parts factory? To take the pressure off of Strasburg and silva shop in Illinois? 🙂🚂
Ah, the 1472. Because some dimwits decided that boiler care wasn't something they needed to worry about, resulting in one melted crown sheet, three scalded crew, and a freaked out FRA. At least it forces people to take care of their engines properly if they intend to run them. You know, I've wondered a time or two if the 1472 only applies to steam locos running publicly, or if you have to adhere to it even if you're running your own little railroad on your own private land. Thanks for the update on Grandma, Hyce, and thanks for the footage of her running. Nice to see the old girl's still got it. Let her know we're all thinking of her.
Maybe a similar question, does the FRA deal with scale railroads? I'm thinking rideable steam trains, large scale miniatures, etc. I'd imagine if it deals with the public or employees, it's going to be subject to some kind of government scrutiny, be it FRA, OSHA, or both. If you want/need liability insurance, complying with inspection and training programs and having third party inspectors check your work would likely be helpful.
@@toymachine2328 The FRA's rules only apply to railroads of track gauge 24" or greater, which 1. connect to the national network, 2. operate within 30' of said network, or 3. cross a public highway or navigable waterway. Plus a few other conditions I forget at the moment. Rideable steam trains and large scale miniatures are below that and thus not FRA, but they may have to comply with certain state codes. The Colorado Railroad Museum doesn't meet the FRA requirements because it's disconnected (Insular) and doesn't cross a public road, so its engines technically only need to meet state boiler code. However, 20 and 346 can (and 20 has) travel by truck to other railroads which are FRA regulated, and therefore need to be FRA certified to operate on those railroads.
If you're not under FRA jurisdiction, the 1472 does not apply. However, if you're not under FRA, you're likely under state jurisdiction, which is it's own bag of things varying state by state.
I suppose this is another video that can be added to the list of "why did diesel replace steam?" Where I work, we perform 1104day (tri-annual) inspections and they're nowhere near as lengthy of a process as going through a boiler must be. With two shifts of 3 good guys, a tri can be knocked out in about 2 days and that locomotive can be fired up afterwards and on a train in an hour if the need arose. Compared to the amount of work you guys must have to put in and the amount of time it takes *just* to fire up the locomotive. It really is great to see the amount of work you guys put in to keep the history of these things alive for ours and hopefully future generations to enjoy. Also, what you said around the 11:30 mark really struck a chord with me. So many people will look at something on a locomotive that's obviously worn, but still serviceable, and think "oh my, it's amazing that these things stay on the rail given how poorly maintained they are." Or look at something like anti-seize on lug nuts and think, "what's the big deal? I've seen that done hundreds of times without issue." Failing in both cases to realize that the people who design this stuff and tell you what to do and what not to do, have sat down and done the math on it and know what is and isn't a good idea to let slide. Common sense is useful, but shouldn't be trusted over cold hard testing.
I’ve rolled those tubes. Hydro tested afterwards. A “Ladyslipper” and dancing w an air chisel will strengthen your hands and arms into Hulk mode. I love boiler work. I’m retired now and w age I appreciate trains more. This video is clutch. I learn and get confused everytime! ✌️😎
I volunteer at the railroad museum of Long Island and our little narrow gauge engine number 1 just had her UT this past Thursday! She was rebuilt in 2019 and only steamed i think 5 days that year and hasnt steamed since so we're pretty sure shes gonna pass. Once she passes we're gonna fix a leaky washout plug and then i want to repaint her because her old southern railroad green is showing under the black lol. Cant wait to see her steam again this year!
Hyce getting his Marty McFly on by the pilot. Yeah Illinois Railway Museum took their Frisco decapod out of service for a number of years for a rebuild and brought it back into service 4 5 years ago. Apparently having only their Shay as the only steam engine functional on the property they started focusing on a UP consolidation to bring up to running condition. Just for the heck of it check out some of the videos on RU-vid about 4 years or so ago where the museum earned a little off season income storing some coal hoppers for UP and posted videos of the museum moving the cars to the UP connection with several of the museum's vintage equipment including their Frisco steamer.
One subject you might want to address in a future update on Grandma is "which engines are subject to the 1472-day inspection?" and also "if it's not FRA-regulated, what rules DO apply?" Technically speaking, since the Museum is insular the FRA rules don't have to apply; however, 20 and 346 can be taken to other railroads, and therefore need that FRA certification to operate there. Actually, the degrees of FRA regulation could probably be a video of their own.
@@toymachine2328 Nope, no issues there. I don't really know anything about the museum's insurance, but I know it doesn't involve anything with our FRA folks.
Two surprises for me. First that the boilers are multi-layer; makes sense given that you want to keep it insulated but I always imagined them as being solid. Second surprise being just how thin the pressure vessel is. I wouldn't have thought that 0.5" thickness would suffice at that scale but I'm guessing a lot of it's down to cylinders/circles being inherently strong.
The boiler itself is a single layer (although riveting requires overlap on the seams), but it does have a layer of insulation wrapped around it and a thin protective metal sheet (or “cladding”) on top of that
The thickness of the steel required depends on the operating pressure and the shell diameter of the boiler. Bigger boilers operating at higher pressures require correspondingly thicker steel.
That patch is 1/2 the thickness of the rest of the boiler. So if it's up to spec then the rest of it is going to last many many years to come. Interesting video, thanks for sharing.
Thanks Mark. I'm glad to see '46 getting worked on again. I remember doing all that on the 318. Her dome was pretty thin at the saddle. It would be neat if the '46 could travel to CATS or D&S some day too. I might have to get out there to see that. Oh, any my wife didn't realize I have met you in person and knew you before you became the world famous Hyce... She thought you were just some guy I found on RU-vid. LOL. I had to pull up the pictures from 2017.
Nice to learn a bit more about the 1472; knew in a general sense it was a rebuild and a "lets fix all the problems that have come up as the result of operating this machine that we can". Would love to see a vid on the math comparing the last Form 4 stats to this scan
Can you do a video on how the locomotives and cars got from the factory out east to the railroad out west? Have seen the slim princess on a flat car, so I'm assuming that is what happened back in the day, but they didn't have the same equipment to do the transport and transfers like we do today so it would be interesting to see a video by you on the subject.
It always bothers me when people refer to a 1472 day inspection as a ‘rebuild’ or ‘restoration’. Rebuilding only occurs when things are not safe for service and need to be repaired. If the boiler is well maintained or not heavily worn, it might not need any repairs during the 1472 inspection.
These inspections are very important, even in different industries. From my experience, weak points in a hull of a ship means it can only handle sea state to a certain level, this does apply to a boiler for structural integrity.
Something you might add is that thicknesses can be different if the locomotives ever had major wrecks Sumpter valley 19 once wrecked and rolled into a river. For whatever reason due to the wreck the fireman side of the door sheet is a decent amount thinner than the rest of the firebox
Just wanted to drop a comment to thank you for what you do, Hyce. I'm too busted up now to be able to get directly involved in any aspect of railroading, but I'm glad you are doing the hard work to make it an option for the young up-and-comers!
Thanks for taking time to go through Form 4 with us. Definitely interested in seeing more on 346’s progress when you have the time. To use a car joke, those thickness numbers look pretty good from 10 feet haha.
Great video. Safety is critical!!! I'm having a new boiler built for my Port Huron steam tractor. I would love to come out and ride the railroad someday!!!
The patch was installed at the Burnham Shops in Denver of the D&RG, not Baldwin. Baldwin did send some guys out to redo the firebox of the No 50 2-6-6-2T of the Uintah Ry because Baldwin built it for much less than the 7.5% grade specified by the railroad. Baldwin did lay a curve of 66* or a R of 91.804' or 91' 9 5/8" to try it on before shipping it. A photo was taken to prove the curve.
Would love to see you go into the math. I'd be particularly interested in how the rated pressures were originally determined (e.g. based on strength of the design and materials, via full-scale testing of sample boilers, etc.)
Yea! Seein' the calculations would be cool (no pun intended). As long as it doesn't involve differential equations, never did get my head around Calc II.
I'd very much be interested in a video on how you do the pressure calculations. Especially if you can also include how Baldwin would have done the calculations 120 years ago, back in the slide-rule days before computer models and finite-element analysis.
We are curious to see what no. 1129's boiler sheet is like after being a park locomotive for 67 years, and retired prior from '53' to '55. I'm cautiously optimistic. With an uncovered smoke stack though, it's anyone's guess how bad it is inside.
Uncovered stack doesn't mean much for the boiler (though possibly the front tube sheet). The asbestos may have eaten away at the boiler - it's really good at holding moisture and causing scarring. Unless it was abated! I can't recall. Get you a UT tester and get after it... this is one of the easy ways to find out if you need $100K or $1000K to restore the thing.
@@Hyce777 My concern is where the moisture is being trapped. No.1129's smoke box door leaves a gap high enough for water to collect without escaping and presumably that water is nestled in that gap and traveling down the lower tubes to the firebox. It's all new to me, but as I said, I'm curious to see what has happened.
@@brookspotts9312 The smokebox should have a plug drain, which hopefully was removed. It shouldn't hold water. If the plug was left in... well, that's not ideal.
@@Hyce777 Maybe the boiler will end up being an oversized planter? Maybe Cactus and juniper? In all seriousness yes it was never abated so it's had lot's of time to stew.
So sad that the camera autofocus had an episode during recording, but other than that it's a banger of an educational video! I hope that it was an old camera and not something new you've got Hyce, but thank you for sharing even though there was issues with the recording. I'd listen to anything you'd like to talk about Hyce, because you've got a knack for making anything you're passionate about be interesting for those who you talk to, a sign of a talented and skilled educator.
@@Hyce777 Oh, noes! Not the new shiny one! I wonder what could have thrown it out on such a loop of shenanigans, too much of an almost single color background with loads of small lighter spots that messed it up? Check the settings for the autofocus and be certain there's no dirt or grime on the lenses, are my best tips. I hope you have better luck in the future.
Impressive, glad to know that 346's rebuild is coming along smoothly, I must ask for the sake of Knowedge, do the Diesels also have to do a 1472 or equivalent?
We want to be more informed about rebuild? More calculations, more informations, more NERD stuff about steam locomotives?! HELL YEAH BROTHER! BRING ZE KNOWLEDGE! ALL OF IT!
I just had to rebuild an odd ho scale model of a C&S narrow gauge loco that is stadard gauge... so anyway, I fixed the brass train up and painted it and modified it for 346! Spark arrestor and all to go with my es&d box cars cars!
Mark, this was great. It was a treat to get a more detailed look at Grandma (so loved your previous video about her tube removal). I really liked how you described the boiler examining process. It was easy to follow and understand. Also, the process specifically as it relates to RR preservation. You really get to see construction technique of the boiler sections with rivets and all that. The period patch you showed on the boiler just above the suspension keepers and how that caused damage was nice to observe! To me, these are the best kind of details. Wonderful to hear you, Mark, discuss natural deterioration and how that plays a part in preservation and FRA requirements. I could go on about all the fab things I learned here, but suffice to say another excellent learning video, Professor. Oh BTW, nice and hilarious musical interlude! Reminds me of a classical ode call it “Ode to 346.” 🤣 Please share the test results that would be an excellent learning opportunity. OMG! So many thanks for this again, Mark and cheers to you!
If you think the riveted suspension patches are weird, remember the A10 warthog's engine stalls when it fires it's gun, and the engineering solution was (and still is) run the starter motor to keep it running while it's shooting and flying.
Really good Mark the joke about grandma being present was good lol! Are you guys going to have to drop the drivers? I recall from an older video where you and Brain were walking around her and you could pretty much fit your whole thirst between the drivers. Thanks again for the update man! Your friend Jeff AKA NW611J.
Another great video, Hyce! When inspecting the boiler tubes, I imagine the buildup from the exhaust gas and particles inside the flues is the primary concern, but would you ever notice any issues of scale or corrosion on the water side of the tubes? If so, would these ever cause a noticable degradation in performance? I'm curious because in the power industry, the focus is on keeping boiler water really clean yet this does not appear to be a concern in steam locomotives. Seems to me that if they had a way to capture the condensed steam, they could solve two problems at once (keep purified water in the system, and reduce the need for water refills). Any thoughts?
Random question but talking about maintenance and overhauls - do y’all ever have issues with uneven wear on the wheels from always running the same direction around a fairly tight circle of track?
Is there a reason why the Class 70s were built with the main rod connected to the second axle instead of the third? We know that they tend to waddle because of that.
Do you have access to all the previous inspection forms for your locomotives? And I apologize if this question has already been addressed and I just missed it.