What Is The Best Form Of Video Game Combat? 

If they think the Fire Emblem Engage cast is too large, wait until they see that Radiant Dawn has like 73 playable characters 💀

You know Garnt, you don’t have to listen to the guides. In Trails, you can build the characters however you want and you can clear all the content with any build or team.

Fire Emblem games usually have permanent death. The reason there are 40-50+ characters is that the game expects some of them to die, and you'll need replacements while also encouraging replayability and subsequent playthroughs. Fire Emblem Thracia 776 has like 52 characters, and I consistently used about 25-30 of them in a single playthrough past the early game.

Devil may cry style combat. Styling on youre enemies is so satisfying

>Joey looks at Tier list >saw most of the characters he likes are low tier >said "Fck this tier list" >didn't say anything that the game was impossible with low tier characters >Garnt still didn't realize that optimizing isn't required to play the game Optimizing is just to make the game easier and you don't need to do it unless you're stuck at a certain part

I love turn-based games that allow you to interfere with turn order in some way. Trails and SMT-Persona are my favorites, but there are others that achieve a similar effect.

Joey , Fire Emblem Engage is the game with the 3rd smallest playable cast in the series , most FE games have a playable cast of 40 to 50+ characters , the reason why you feel the game is overcomplicated is that every character in the game can equip an emblem or bond ring , each coming a veriety of unique skills , and every characters can also reclass into 50 different classes

Just because a RPG has optiomal builds it doesnt mean you HAVE to look up a guide to get that build esepcially if you're doing it blind. The games are designed around regular classes and builds that the games nudge you towards when you play the game for the first time. Optimal build stuff is for like post game shenanigans and second playthroughs.

Smt's Press turn combat system is pretty much perfect for me

I find that games with the perfect system/difficult/learning curve are usually ones that strike the balance between: Freedom of expression - The player is able to play the way they want while always having "some" viable way to succeed/clear the game. Game mechanics that are easy to learn, but have depth if a player chooses to prep for. There should be room to optimize, but are overall not absolutely necessary (unless challenged set by the player).

SMTV made me love Megaten's Press Turn System, it's so satisfying hitting crits or weaknesses and getting more opportunities to dunk on the enemy It's now one of my favorite JRPG combat systems

Sekiro's combat is the best ever. The line between offense and defense is so blurred that no matter what action you do, it feels like you're making progress. Attack pressures enemies to block while Blocking/Delfecting weakens enemies stances until they're vulnerable enough to be Deathblown. For once, blocking actually feels proactive and aggressive as opposed to being usually passive and defensive. There's also the amazing Perilous Attack system in which the player has to counter specific attacks in specific ways. For Thrust Attacks, you either have to straffe around the attack, perform a perfect Deflect, or step on the attack using the Mikiri Counter. As for low-hanging Sweep Attacks, you have to jump over them which are perfect opportunities for jump attacks that are both offensive and defensive in this case. Not only does this make Sekiro's combat feel difficult in a digestible way, but also dance-like.

Smt Press Turn system and Persona's One More system is just amazing. I also wish more JRPG would incorporate button layout menu like P5 instead of the usual excel sheet.

SMT's press turn system is literal peak turn based combat in my eyes. If you liked Persona 5's combat you will 100% love SMT's combat. Note: SMT 3 was the first game that introduces the press turn system so 1 and 2 don't have it.

9:38 I think Connor just loves high stakes games while Garnt prefers games where he gets to choose what time he wants to engage the more difficult challenges.

I feel like Monster hunter's combat is my favorite because it feels like a dance between the player and the enemy constantly trying to 1 up each other, and even when some monsters seem too difficult when you finally beat them it feels immensely satisfying as a result and then you can craft their armor, weapons making you stronger to fight stronger monsters thus for me personally creating an almost perfect gameplay loop that I've never gotten sick of for years.

Beat-em-up, hack and slash, and real time rpg combat like DMC, Ninja Gaiden, MGSR, and Kingdom Hearts are my favorite types of combat. Let me move around and attack when I want, is always perfect for me.

Love trails and coming up with my own builds which do something it's half the reason I love it, chronos spells and stuff like that tend to get busted. But really don't worry too much about optimization, the game isnt that harsh and that's coming from somebody who plays mostly on hard and one on nightmare

I concur with Joey. I play the characters/class that interests me over what is considered meta/optimal. Back when I played WoW in Legion I picked talents that were cool to use and see which meant my damage wasn't as high as it could have been but I was having a blast which has become way more important to me than striving to be the best I can be at what I'm doing in a game.

Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door is another game that hits the prep-time to play time sweet zone. Part of the reason is that while you can get up to 8 party members (counting Mario) only Mario is customizable, whereas all the other characters have specific moves that make them good in certain situations

I'm kind of surprised Garnt dislikes Trails because of the character customization or "complexity", like he hasn't even gotten to Cold Steel where you've got 51 playable characters, way more variety of arts, crafts, brave orders, etc. In FC/SC there's a dozen playables, and they've all got pretty similar playstyles. Turn down the difficulty and just build however you like, there's so much broken stuff that through trial and error you'll find what works and exploit it.

A good example of story being improperly provided through a game is the Destiny franchise. Their story is so expansive and detailed, yet they tell it through either walls of texts or conversations while mindlessly playing a story mission. The cutscenes are incredible choreographed and detailed, but you can’t easily follow what happens in the cutscenes since you can’t take in the story while naturally playing.

I think Xenoblade Chronicles is a great example of a great combat system with characters you actually want to play as. Personally, it's my favorite game of all time.

I relate a lot to why Garnt doesn’t do Nuzlocks. like, why would I want to go through the effort of trying to have fun with a game that I don’t really like when I can just play a game that I know I’ll actually like.

Smt's press turn system, strange journey's demon co-op system and that's not even mentioning how fun and engaging the customization is with the demon fusion and smt v and 4 style of customization for the main character really is.

Hearing them complain on optimization ruining the game experience is so painful my god all game does not required it you can still play it normally optimazation is just make it easier

All this talk about Turn Based Combat kinda reminds me of the time when I was watching a video about Yiik (The bad RPG game with complex Turn Based Combat) in which that video describes how complicated that combat system of that game.

Your viewpoints and explanations were interesting and well thought out, gentlemen; cheers!

I genuinely believe that fighting games style combat (tag team, traditional, MVC1-styled assists and platform fighters) and beat 'em up style games style combat like DMC, GOW and P5S (if you count it) are peak combat. Especially if you go with a full Glass Cannon build/character.

The 1st 2 trails are a power trip, you only need at most 1 build... and a bunch of accessories to make sure you don't die

For me Final Fantasy 12 on Playstation 2 back in the days was the best form of turn-base could ever be, playing and moving a character while strategizing the use and timing of character skill, it feels more satisfying and less boring rather than staring a standing still character waiting their turn to attack, imagine if star rail implemented this gameplay, oh man that would be so cool

That's why I love Shining Force. When I tried Fire Emblem Heroes, there were lots of characters, events, battles, lots of stuff on the screen and battle system is a bit complex. Shining Force is much simpler but still fun and the characters are actually unique

I’m dead. If you play fire emblem engage on the highest difficulty you have to use meta but aside from that it is one of the most flexible fire emblems ever. The ability to use emblems is why you can basically use who you want on easier difficulties!

i like that the boys talking about wanting turn based to punish you while praising persona and liking it so much, are not paying attention to the series from the same creators, mainline smt series that actually punishes you instead of what persona never does

I really like character action games like devil may cry. I think what I like most about those games is that they have a lot of depth in their combat and are similar to fighting games in that it isn’t just button mashing. You can button mash if you like especially on the easier difficulties but if you wanna explore the combat in more depth you can do that and come up with some crazy stylish combos. Dmc 5 for example gives you so many weapons that it’s insane, Dante in that game can do so much and once you get a feel for it and start cycling through weapons mid combo it just feels satisfying to play IMO

I played BotW Master Mode only allowing myself to eat food while at a campfire, cooking pot, or inn and I've done the same in TotK and it's been a way better experience because of it. It did eventually get really annoying having to pull out a piece of wood and light it on fire every time, though, so I reduced the limitations to just no healing in combat. TBH I'm thinking of adjusting my rule again so that I can heal in combat but I have to charge up a regular sword attack to level 2 before I can open up my menu and I can only eat one thing each time. Sort of trying to recreate estus flasks in Dark Souls so there's some risk to trying to heal mid-combat. The lesson here is that making healing limited and risky is just something you need to do if you're gonna have slow-medium paced melee combat in your game. It just makes it better.

WHERE ARE MY TRAILS MFS

Artificial difficulty sometimes really fun, like when im really bored i play naruto storm but im not allowed to use subtitution, so no reset button if i messed up in neutral phase

Personas is cool because of how you need to balance the sim part to optimise the turn based part/the personas you get

I think when it comes to combat systems it's less about the goldilocks zone on the level of complicatedness, or level of challenge or not, but more so, how the game can create a combat system that stays super fun, immersive and entertaining across the entire length of game. I feel like you can make any game overly complicated by diving into "optimal builds" and set-ups, but rarely is genuinely necessary to do so. The vast majority games are made so you can beat them without playing optimally and knowing the exact in's and out's of the combat. Even in Persona for example, you could very easily dive into optimal gameplay via maxing social-links/confidants or, going for decked-out personas and optimizing your fusions. I think when games make their gameplay about the challenge/complexity, then in turn players tend to feel like they DO need to play optimally, beacuse there's simply not much else. Combat in games though should be about more than just this though. It goes without saying that there are so many games that are far too easy and offer little challenge. Or, games that feel too repetitive in their combat. Or, games that feel like they drag on. Or, games that just feel super plain in their combat system. The best combat systems aren't the best because of their complexity or difficulty but their ability to continue to feel unique, fun, innovative, immersive, etc. I think the reason why most people consider Persona 5, for instance, as such a great game, is not just bc it strikes a balance complexity/difficulty-wise, but because there's so much more to it's gameplay than the standard jrpg turn-based formula that's been done since the first Final Fantasy. There's huge varied areas and puzzles to absorb yourself in, special abilities to unlock, ways to break up the turn-order, showtimes to execute, a grappling hook, social-links that empower your team, a entire social-sim aspect to the game, and, so much more. There are so many games out there that are not-too complicated, not too difficulty or easy, not too many characters, etc, that are simply still not popular because they lack that level of uniqueness and fun that can keep a player engaged over the often 50+ hour journey it may take.

A big problem with the FE community and tier lists is either A. They're filled with pure bias or B. They're ONLY for optimal play. Tier lists as a whole are opinionated but when it comes to FE most lists are made by those who play things like Low Turn count runs or other challenges. Half the time in games the pros say to just use like 1-3 units only which is possible but takes the fun out fo the game imo

I’m not a fan of turn based combat and I usually stay away from it, but I have been playing HSR, I used to play Pokémon on my DS as a kid, and I had a blast playing through The Ruined King when that came out. My favorite thing about TRK was the lane mechanic, not because I’m a League player but it was cool to control the speed like that and use the same abilities differently.

Garnt's entire process of optimizing his party is near worthless. Pretty much any half-competent build can get you through a Trails game, you don't need to do that shit.

connor having one of his leg up the chair is very SEA coded of him lmfao

connor saying he needs stakes tells me he hasnt played any roguelikes/roguelites

If you want a challenge i would suggest Thracia 776 or final fantasy type 0

Doom eternal's combat is bananas, makes my chest hair grow and i just don't want it to slow down EVER. Yeah, when it comes to raw battle fervor nothing can beat it.

Fighting game combat is my faviroute, a human opponent is so dynamic it feels like playing speed chess, but combined with cathartic visuals, audio and controls of an action game

If Connor really despises turn based RPGs but enjoys strategy games, he would absolutely love Advance Wars Reboot Camp.

What do you guys think about the original "Gambit system" from Final Fantasy 12? I loved it so much. Still my favourite game ever. The amounts of setting up the system to min max and micro manage was amazing. But let me knlw if you played it before

The golden standard for team combat in videogames for me is Chrono Trigger. You always play in a party of 3 and every character has a basic set of skills and magic is limited to a simple 3 tier system. The depth of the combat system comes from your ability to combine skills with your party members for more powerful, in double techs and triple techs. Another layer is that certain attacks only hit enemies in a certain area, and even though you are stationary, the movement of your enemies might make it more optimal to wait for a bit to use your skills to hit multiple enemies instead of a single enemy. Combining different party members for different double and triple techs creates a simple but incredibly rich combat system I have rarely seen since.

I feel like if it’s too simple, then what’s the point of turn based combat? I get the impression that the best one from what I’ve heard was Final Fantasy V job system because it encourages trying out different classes, and it’s pretty balanced while also being challenging. I still need to play it tho.

They should really try Library of Ruina. Absolutely fantastic game. But for a ton of battles if you don’t have the correct build and types of damage, you WILL lose. You almost have to focus as much on builds and customization as combat. The whole combat system is super complex, challenging, and fun. Then you hit the Abnormality battles and what they require, ohhhh boy.

ff7r has a cool turn based action combat system i like. i also dont mind old school turn based from old era consoles. both can be fun

Honestly, I think the simplest, most widely known example of this whole topic is Pokemon. Yes, you can look up Pokemon, moves, and nature tierlists and catch perfect combos to optimize your team into this perfect engine that wallops every matchup. Or you can just power level your starter and a Pigdey and stomp everything up until the Elite Four with your overleveled stuff. I slapped them silly in Silver with a Lvl100 Alakazam and with an Ampharos in Diamond. And somewhere in between that lies the challenge runners who enact self-made rules to prevent either extreme, like perma-death, limited catches, and level caps. Well made strategy games will allow you to pick whatever and still have a good chance at winning. And if not, leveling is usually an option. Tierlists are for endgame and PvP where the Meta takes over. edit: guess I shouldn't have paused, they covered all my points a second after I paused to comment

For a game with turn base combat, Darkest Dungeon comes to mind. You have different heroes with different abilities and abilities can only be done if you are in the correct postion.

You can basically ignore most of the customization in trails and just use the quartz you like the most, dont need to worry much, but you can totally break the game If want to optimize, in cold steel I was destroying bosses without even give them a turn

This is what happens when you let a guide play for you instead of assisting you

I loved turn based combat already, but after playing persona and then going on to the smt games (nocturne, 4, devil survivor) i became obsessed with spreadsheets lol.

I recommend gamers to play TLOU but non gamers to watch it, having played it go much more attached to the characters since i spent like 20+ hours with them compared to only 9, though most things were done better in the show, spoilers How Joel gets injured during the game makes a lot more sense and has bigger impact to me

Like a Dragon 7 is one of my favorite turn based games. I completely understand why some people prefer the beat-em-up combat style of the earlier games. The games also have a great story and a lot of other things besides the combat that makes it fun and very entertaining. It's also one of the most Japanese games I have ever seen

My favorite turn based combat is the simple kind like FF9 and Dragon Quest while my favorite action combat is the satisfying type like Ghost of Tsushima, Devil May Cry, and the newer Yakuza games.

Completely dependant on the device you're playing on and the input method you use. For me on PC with mouse and keyboard, the best form of video game combat I've played is Black Desert Online.

I will take a game where I have to spend 2 hours of attempts trying to fight a difficult boss before I finally beat it over a game that is a casual cakewalk but if I screw up once I lose 10 hours of progress and start from the beginning.

Joey didnt talk about the real problem of fe engage which is having 40+ characters but usually only 10 character slots

Knowing they have pretty busy schedules outside gaming. Their points are reasonable. They just want to not think too much, play and have fun while still having that feels of nostalgia of what they used to play for countless of hours.

If Connor snorts a milkshake I’ll do a no-hit tlou perfect run

I think Garnt will love Another Eden

I would like to add Nier Re[in[carnation as well. Imo, the gameplay has a variety of complexities for team setting and there is even a build auto option. Try it!

I wonder if garnt would enjoy octopath traveler

Monster Hunter Sekiro God of War Final Fantasy VII Remake Devil May Cry when its all said and done these are the combat systems i enjoy and enjoyed the most in amongst 700+ games there are others who are similar and come close but these are the ones that impressed me the most

Wait Garnt actually took the plunge into the trails series?!?!

I like the way FF7 remake did theirs. Combined real time combat with active turn based strategy.

If you don't wanna look up tier lists and guides, then DON'T. Nobody and nothing is forcing you to. It's not the game's fault that you don't wanna engage with it.

garnt could allso do rom hack's like renegate platinium, Emerald Kaizo ect

Chrono Trigger have amazing combat

for me its 1. SRPG 2. Souls like 3. Turn Based

Dark cloud 2 was fun

Idk if it's better, I think the right term would be "more fun".

This may not be their wheelhouse, but in terms of vehicle combat, nothing beats the Burnout series in terms of making vehicle combat fun. On the surface it's basically taking your car and ramming your opponent's car off the road. But the execution or "takedowns" is a sandbox on it's own. You can either just grind the other guy against the guardrails till they hit a pole, or slam the guy into a traffic car, or into a building side, or jump on a ramp or elevated part of the track and fall on top of your opponent and score vertical takedowns, and etc. The game promotes quick thinking and aggressive driving as well as creativity in location spotting for takedowns.

14:00 I think they managed to do that a bit better in Last of Us 2 (one of the only things positive about that game IMO) is that the violence is so graphic a raw that it made me uncomfortable when playing it, and I started questioning what it was I was actually doing. The characters take longer to die and the sounds are more visceral, you hear people crying out in shock and horror when they find dead characters and even say their names, etc. Don't even get me started on the dogs. I had to use grenades and point black shots just to put them down so it wouldn't break my heart.

When it comes to turn based there's nothing like shin megami tensei. That's the peak. Action combat is a bit more complicated tho. Cuz action could mean hack and slash or something like monster hunter which is basically a whole other genre by itself. But i'ma say dmc bayonetta and god hand are the peak of action combat excluding the more peculiar ones.

I would love to be apart of an anime rating episode where I tell you guys about my “trash taste”

While I can appreciate Turn-based combat, I prefer Tales style combat system (Though I do have a bias for the more Fighting game-esque earlier titles like Abyss & Destiny R rather than something like Berseria and Arise)

I have heard great things about HBO-sorry, “Max’s” The Last of Us and surprisingly seems to be a faithful adaption but I’m still not holding my breath that this will hold up all the way through or be the next best thing in TV. Because I don’t know if people can handle another disappointment like Game of Thrones🙃

Octopath seems to be good balance too imo

Man, higher complexity allows for greater player expression. It's only in a highly complex play space where multiple right answers can even exist. You don't always have to choose the single most optimal strat, you just need to find something that works for you and you enjoy, right? I don't see the enjoyment in literally just doing as I am told. At that point, just make the action a button you push and don't make it turn based? One of turn based's greatest advantages is that it can accommodate FAR more choices than real-time ever could without just making the game a hotkey nightmare.

For turn based, none will surpass SMT. The press turn system is just too good that both the player and enemies can take advantage of, its by far the hardest turnbased game, plus your party is constantly changing through demon recruitments. I think alot of turn based give way too much to the player while enemies are stuck doing the same thing throughout the game, its why Persona pales in comparision cause they give so much shit to the player. Octopath 2 is definitely 2nd best its job and break system is great and satisfying and its super boss is amazing and difficult

I can't think any other game than Monster Hunter having one the best combat system out there, especially Monster hunter world and a little bit more on Monster hunter rise. It just ridiculously impressive. It has a deep prep combat system, but you can hunt a monster with competent armor and weapon without getting deep into the prep. If anyone read this please recommend me other games with its combat system as good as monster hunter 😅

persona 5 royal was my first ever turn based game and i loved it. i haven't played much of the other smt games besides devil survival 1 and nocturne but i enjoyed the combat systems there as well

Shadow Hearts had the best turn based combat imo. Goated game.

Uh, fighting games, right?

I wish most people mention blue dragon such a good jrpg

Connor needs to discover Rogue Likes

Fast-paced hack-and-slash/movement shooters, with a high skill ceiling and a ranking system. When it flops, it flops; when it hits, it hhhHHITS.

I can see how looking up guides to try to optimize your experience can ruin the game for you. I almost did that with Tears of the kingdom, but bI stopped myself because enjoying game my own way is the correct way. Trying to get 100% on a game of that scale would be too much for me(unless it is ER).

Damn Garnt is going to have an issue when he gets to cold steel

Even though i enjoy both styles i remember one day i was chilling playing samurai warriors 2 and my cousin seen me playing and was laughing and had me like yo you good he was like dude i can't believe you play that trash repetitive genre and i legit had to hold some words back because ain't no way someone that tells me warrior game's are repetitive when turn base is literally taking turns hitting each other

I am on playstation and thinking about starting another game. I loved yakuza: Like a dragon and I have persona 5 royale edition but I never played it, should I play or skip it?

Saying you don’t feel the impact of violence in last of us games when the main issue some had is they made characters cry for their dogs, scream for help, viscerally die, break bones while being strung up, etc all too personal and people though it was too dark is a weird take. I really think they are just outwardly criticizing as if some game of the year winner is your average generic game all after acknowledging they loved the story. Hot takes all around. lol still funny and fun just had me going whattyyy lol