What Is The Future of the Novus Ordo w/ Michael Gormley 

I left the church, having been raised in a "welcoming" Novus Ordo parish. As a kid, I didnt understand why no one took the Mass seriously, especially if they claimed the Eucharist was literally the body and blood of Christ Thank God for the Latin Mass that brought me back home

I used to attend Novus Ordo and was raised in a Novus Ordo mass! But in 2020 I found the Traditional Latin Mass and I am so thankful to God to have found it! I love it so much and I would not go back, the respect to our Lord is incredible and the respect in mass by all is beautiful!! Receiving our Lords body on the knees and on the mouth is a beautiful sight to see the respect to our Lords body! I would definitely recommend attending Traditional Latin Mass 100%.

I entered the church from athiesm just over a year ago. I was baptised and confirmed in a charismatic church. One week after my baptism I attended my first TLM and I've never left, it was the most beautiful way to worhsip God I have ever seen. I go to NO when I have to but there is a big difference and the TLM has so many good fruits.

i honestly think that kids my age, 20's and 30's, want the latin mass or at least an extremely reverent novus ordo. it is so weird how tradition and virtue has seemingly become counter culture. if you want to rebel you go to the latin mass, you don't get tatoos, you don't do drugs, abstain from sex, etc. we certainly are living in strange times.

There's nothing radical about the traditional Latin Mass

My main difficulty with reverent Novus Ordos (of which I have attended and deeply appreciate many) is that they are often quite dependent on the pastor. You could have (as I have seen) a priest who takes the Mass extremely seriously and adds much needed reverence to his celebration of the Novus Ordo. But then, say, 8 years later, he is transferred and a new priest comes who is completely opposed to the work his predecessor accomplished. It’s just far too dependent on taste and opinion.

I have noticed that the younger priests coming out of seminary seem to have a lot more reverence for the Mass and the Eucharist. It's a positive trend.

We attend one of those "unicorn Novus Ordos" and when we go on vacation and attend regular NO parishes my kids have asked if we're going to protestant churches. I think that's a major problem. Now we always try to find a Byzantine Catholic church or TLM when we're not home.

I joined a Byzantine church after hearing Matt mention that rite. The novus ordo feels so watered down.

Summorum Pontificum was and is the wisest and most prudent answer to all the problems discussed. It’s to bad many bishops ignored it and this created two opposing groups…God Bless B16.

I have seen a slow but steady increase in the reverence, music and preaching in Novus Ordo masses. Understand that millennial priests, who are the strongest force for tradition in the Latin Rite, are just now beginning to become pastors. The next two decades will see a tidal wave of them taking over. It's going to be very interesting to watch.

The ending… yes yes yes yes and yes. I’ve had these conversations with people where I posit, “God could have absolutely stopped Vatican II in its track. Just like He could have stopped the reformation or even the fall; but He didnt”. I fully believe He’s using Vatican II to bring about a greater good than we could have ever imagined. Also agree the novus ordo can’t stay the way it is. Luckily I go to a very reverent novus ordo at my Polish parish.

Tradition is our future, or we have no future. I will be in communion with the saints, and my ancestors. When I attend the Latin Mass, I feel them there beside me. 10:15 - I tried to tell someone that the doctrine of the Real Presence states that Christ is fully present, body, blood, soul and divinity in every drop of wine, and crumb of the host, and they were like "If that were true, communion in the hand would be banned" Then I pulled out the CCC. Never got a response.

This is spot on. I floundered in my youth and fell away for a period of time. Thank God for Mother Angelica.

I've been saying this since my time at RCIA. I said the more we treat the eucharist as God the better. That means bringing back communion plates, facing ad orientem, and the priest should be the only one handling the eucharist. The Novus ordo doesn't need to change, but the things we do for the Eucharist do. As Michael says, lacking any of these things should be the exception, not the norm. I've had lay eucharistic ministers get offended at the idea though.

I’ve been attending TLM for the last year and a half and I’ve learned so much more about my faith and I’ve even learned more culturally and historically than my first 25 years on this earth w Novus Ordoesque communities

We fled the NO because of our children. All our family members and friends lost their faith un these last 60 years. The more we learn about the TLM the less we are likely to go back. We will go the catacumbs if we have to.

I was born in Dubai, so English was my first language. I came to Canada from India with my family when I was 9. We got connected with the local Syro-Malankara church in Toronto, because we were Malankara Catholic. For me, it was hard to get invested in the liturgy and the language, which is a mix of Malayalam and Greek. To me Novus Ordo just made sense. But I don’t condemn tradition. It’s worth protecting.

I truly believe with all my soul that the Novus Ordo MUST be scrapped and a proper, Catholic, and faithful reform of the 1962 Mass be done. The Novus Ordo is a rupture, a break with the continuity of Liturgical tradition of the Church. That CANNOT be denied at this point. Cannot be! What was truly desired was a PARTIAL vernacularization of the 1962 and additional of a daily lectionary. That's it! The majority of the liturgical reform was to he focused in a reform of the breviary and calendar. Read all the major orthodox players of the liturgical reform prior to Vatican II. They wanted a renewal of the faithful's encounter and engagement in the reality and mystery of Christ in the Liturgy. What we got instead was a complete secularization and modernist version of worship that carried with it a new theology. CANNOT be denied or refused at this point. The Novus Ordo needs to be scrapped and a faithful reform done instead.

A couple of thoughts: The four ends of the Mass are 1) Adoration 2) Thanksgiving 3) Atonement and 4) Petition……. NOT evangelization. When the liturgy was changed to bring about and end that is not it’s purpose it diminished it’s ability to do it’s purpose. The Novus Ordo DONE WELL is still dramatically inferior to the TLM.

The New mass in my opinion has only older people attending as when you go to a Latin mass it’s full of younger people and families.

The Roman Canon is the most ancient. We have an awesome patrimony in the West, and it’s coming back beautifully.

You’ve nailed! I was born in 1963 so I do recall my parish Church which is enormous, absolutely packed. By 1972 it was not 1/2 full. Something has to give! The tlm my son attends is standing room only.

Much love for the Ordinariate! Thats what the Novus Ordo should have been.

I am a diocesan priest, so you know that I am in communion with the Church. Michael Gormley’s point about the traditional Roman Rite evangelizing the world is one I use often. The revision of the rites was supposedly meant to simplify and evangelize. Average parish sacrifices are disastrous messes of ritual books. Do perform all the rites , many more books are required than before 1970. The parish I served as a Deacon had three vernacular languages in use, multiplying books by 3. It is so confusing that many clerics never learn to use them correctly, and then they change. Rare is the cleric who also knows which are most recent editions in use of those ritual books. Sure, all of this can be resolved, and much of the confusion will be, I presume - but never ever ever should a Catholic of good will accuse the traditional rites of being too complex, or unfit for evangelization. The traditional Roman Rites DID evangelize the world, and was simple enough to be carried through the old world - no airplanes, trains, postal service, etc. The Eastern Rites have not done this in the same way, for whatever reason. The traditional Roman Rite is our inheritance, and a precious one at that

I really appreciate Gomer's insights here. Reforms have been part of the Church's history since its earliest days, as we read from St Paul. Reforms of the liturgy are likewise necessary and inevitable. But we must see that they always bring us closer to God and not simply lower the bar (or stay on the bridge as he says). I look forward to the day when we won't have any more of this "liturgy war" and instead celebrate a beautiful and reverent Mass without clinging to faulty ideologies of any kind.

I had to go to First Saturday Devotions at a different parish today. I prayed before I even got there to help me stay focused on the Eucharist because I had to attend this church before and came away upset. It felt so Protestant. I shouldn't have to feel this way when going to mass. Older priest facing us for starters. There was no reverence from the laity(of bowing or even genuflecting) in front of the blessed sacrament. People just walked right past the alter without acknowledging our Lord before and after mass. Conversations taking place after mass in church. No bells when the body and blood of Jesus is raised, no way to kneel to receive communion on the tongue . The priest was doing alot of ab libbing, was even saying his prayers (suppose to be quietly said)outloud to us. I was the only one with a veil on my head. Thank you Lord for opening my eyes to the beautiful gift of TLM. We have one an hour away, but in the meantime at least we have NO Ad Orientum, Latin prayers required, alter boys, a kneeler, the patten, incense, etc. in my parish. These NO priests are obeying their Bishops so they don't get canceled and the Bishops are afraid of the Vatican.(called out like Bishop Strickland). So sad. I now see the tear down of the Catholic Church through Vatican II.

I will definitely say I am one of the people that is exhausted. Discussions like this are helpful, makes me feel like I'm not alone. People, don't give up on one another. God Bless!

Bring back traditional Catholicism, and you'll bring back seriously devout men of faith. Its the reason most are leaving to go to Orthodoxy, bring back tradition, bring back holy men and women.

Novus Ordo is 18% of the TLM. Crazy.

The diocese in Charlotte is training the seminarians like this. At NOs I’ve been too you are the outlier if you are standing or put your hands out in many parishes especially where the younger priests are. Even the cathedral is like this

Nearly everyone at all of my close Novus Ordo has one foot in the grave. I honestly don't know how the Priests are keeping the lights on. Yet the TLM down the road is full, with all generations, kids everywhere. I honestly don't think it will be long that they will be selling Novus Ordo Churches, which, by the way, were built by TLM.

The church my parents go to does novus ordo, Latin and a Byzantine liturgy. The novus ordo is the least attended.

Has anyone noticed that having a reverent Novus Ordo mean just changing stuff to be more like the Traditional Mass? I cant think of a single thing the Novus Ordo brought in that was new that ended up being better. At that point why even have it at all?

The acorn grew into a big beautiful oak tree. Then we chop off healthy and vitally important limbs and have the novus ordo. The NO has much more potential for liturgical abuse. The writing is on the wall, it is painfully obvious. We must return to TLM. My opinion is there is zero room for NO in future of church because of the novelty in it. If we are intellectually honest, the NO has got to go.

The parish I attend does a very reverant Novus Ordo, ad orientem, Latin mixed in, alter rails. I LOVE IT! We just had our last TLM this month which is sad, because I love it too. My pastor is talking about doing some of the masses (Novus Ordo) all in Latin.

TLM guy here. I hope Sancrosanctum Concillium is more faithfully implemented in my lifetime. I really hope the differences between the Novus Ordo and the TLM get to be very small so that they are virtually unidentifiable.

It will disappear everywhere

Seminarian here. It seems to me that more and more priests and priests-to-be have a traditional sense when it comes to the mass. And so do the younger generations of believers. So I can hardly see the ordo staying the same in the coming years. Still, I'm grateful for the novus ordo as it brought some good things like the lectionary, the use of the vernacular and the effort to include the people in the Sacrifice (which we should all keep). I believe the use of the 1965 missal with those good innovations would be a great thing to serve the need to announce the Gospel and to appease the ridiculous liturgy tensions we see today in the West. Christ is always first!

At this rate I see people at least the more serious of Catholics checking out from the New Mass and moving over to either Eastern Rite, Ordinariate or TLM.

Proud to hear about the story of Syro Malabar chants 😊

A fifth of the people would leave the Church if we all went ad orientum because most Catholics have a Protestant mindset at this point. We need the FSSP, ICKSP, Eastern Liturgies - and dare I say the SSPX - to help us become more Catholic.

This is such a great conversation. You’ve both succinctly identified and out into words in a way I’ve struggled to do

I like the Novus Ordo. I was taught a lot about the faith as a kid (Catholic school for a few years/and a fairly religious mom) which had a much bigger affect on my faith than the weekly Mass. A couple years after I left the Catholic Church, I went through a tough time and my Mom asked me to come to Church with her. It was Novus Ordo, and I remember feeling a sense of peace when I was there, and I began to feel very engaged, emotional to tears at the moment the bread became the body. I don't find the Novus Ordo to be irreverent, though there is a range. Latin Mass is not for me (maybe I'd change my mind had I gone to it more often). I think the Novus Ordo churches I go to ate very reverent but also not cold, and one of the churches I go to regularly uses a guitar, one doesn't (but it's very beautiful/calm and not like rock), and the one with the guitar has started using kneelers when the Eucharist is given, and most people have been kneeling to receive the Eucharist. They both have beautiful art (one is small old style church design, one has an Eastern kind of design with huge icons of Jesus/apostles under the dome, and both have tons of art/statues of saints, lots of stained glass, and words over the alter space like "Blessed be Jesus in the most holy sacrament of the altar" and the other "I am the bread of life". I left the faith because I was questioning the evidence for God, and dealing with problems, and when I stopped going, it was much easier to let go of the whole faith. I think a bigger problem is the way people are being taught about God and the faith (I started hearing about indulgences etc in high school and reading Thomas Paine and things which made me seriously question everything), and wanting to live your life with ease (I struggled with sin/incorrectly thought that any intrusive thought was a sin etc and I tried repressing which obviously made it worse. Plus watching a lot of secular content which became incompatible made it easier to slip out of it. I think blaming the Novus Ordo may be a silver bullet when the actual problem is that there may be a lot of things we cannot control that are problems (like that people are watching incompatible shows/media, being immersed in a non-Catholic, often anti-Catholic culture).

I've never attended a novus ordo in my life only latin mass, don't think I'm missing out

The Novus Ordo went hand in hand with a mass loss of faith in Eastern Canada.

The Extraordinary Form + a full/proper understanding of the love, mercy, and justice of God. This is the formula.

The most reverent Novus Ordo Mass in the entire world would not make it beyond the bottom 20 percent of Traditional Latin Masses on the reverence scale.

Mr. Gormley asked whether there is more attendance now than in the 50's and 60's. The 50's and 60's is when my parents grew up. For at least one set of grandparents who raised my parents pre-Vatican II, they were not regular church goers. Responsibilities on their farm was the main reason provided for irregular attendance. My dad didn't go to mass with us; only 2 times per year. Now in my 40's I am learning more and more about my faith and how little my parents instilled a since of love, awe and appreciation of the Catholic faith (didn't get any of that from my grandparents either). For my experience, this has nothing to do with the Novus Ordo at all, but how one lives their faith and shares it with others. Thankfully, I was exposed to such things when I met a fabulous group of women at a Walking With Purpose Bible Study at my parish....it grew from there. You never know how God will guide you or who he will put in your path to serve his purpose. Thankful every day!

I was recently at an Episcopal church for Sunday services. They had a very liberal theology, LGBTQ-friendly, open communion for all baptized Christians, etc. But as for the worship style: priest in very traditional vestments, altar servers, reader, and entire choir in cassock and surplice, thundering organ and many 19th century hymns. When receiving the Eucharist all who were able knelt at the altar rail. After all came back to the pews, the elderly and infirm simply raised their hands and the priest came to them individually with the host. It was a small but beautiful wood-framed gothic church. You could tell many Catholics were there, when they said "proceeds from the Father and Son" during the creed. Some even held rosaries.

The paten, ad orientem, altar rails, AND no more extraordinary ministers. I'm personally also not a fan of lectors. I generally avoid my parish's NO services specifically for this alone. I would much rather my deacon do the readings and the priest to give the announcements before the homily. The altar servers are also important too. I remember one parish I went to, full of children in the pews, but they only had two servers. Both elderly women in their 70's - 80's. That said, I still attend the NO on occasion. Just depends on the time I'm able to attend. It's still a valid mass, I know, but I find more things in the NO to get distracted by.

I wish the Ordinariate would become the new standard for Catholicism at least in the United States and Anglophone countries. It really is the best liturgy in English. I respect that Latin goes back to the Apostles, I do, and I will always value that connection to our forefathers. But English is the lingua franca in the world in a way that Latin was in the Western Roman Empire and Greek was in the Eastern Empire. The cleaned up Anglican Liturgy really is the best kind of sacral liturgy that not only uses a common language everyone can understand, but that shows us HOW this language is used to talk to God. Anglicanism showed us how to talk sacrally, and Catholicism brought sacral English into alignment with the Truth.

I will gladly kneel before the body of our Lord. It's what I want. I want to be as reverent as possible, because He deserves no less. It feels so weird to me that people are even being rebuked by their priests for doing this.

Excellent discussion on an extremely difficult topic! Really appreciate it.

Born in ‘59, raised in the PA coal cracker region, I had the benefit of TLM until 1970. I found the NO guitar masses engaging for a bit but as years went by couldn’t understand why the young children did not appreciate the reverence of the Mass. One thing that had never occurred to me until I heard it was that TLM was the same around the world. Imagine that. It was universal. You could go anywhere in the world and the Mass would be the same. I think part of the problem is poor catechesis. At 64 I am still learning the of beauty and depth of Catholicism. How much symbolism there is and their meanings. The quasi-parish (FSSP) I attend doesn’t share the sentiment that the NO is going away. Quite the opposite. They are afraid their Latin Mass will be taken away and we pray daily that it will remain.

The problem with the "God is Love" homilies we often get in NO churches is that the 'love' they describe bears no resemblance to the Almighty God of the Bible and Sacred Tradition. Their idea of love seems to be something like niceness, or one of the other woke virtues. It's not the all-consuming fire that changes your life, something that makes you turn away from sin.

This is a phenomenal question. First of all it includes an implied recognition that serious Catholics are opting for options outside of the novus ordo. Yes, there is a large remnant that is either too old to reproduce, too worldly to be fruitful, or too few to matter. Yes, this Remnant sees the writing on the wall as funerals exceed marriages and baptisms; and yes, this makes them almost entirely too bitter to accept invitations into the liturgical space where Catholic life is flourishing. Secondly, in response to the question itself, I expect the novus ordo to go out with a whimper. In the same way that families attending traditional masses need to drive hour or more sometimes to worship, the devotees of this liturgical experiment will need to sacrifice as parishes close at an accelerating rate. Many will just cease to go to mass, just as they did after covid.

I remember Fr. George Rutler writing in his book "A Crisis of Saints" that gone into a mist are the days when Priests had to warn people away from converting to Catholicism because of the beauty of the liturgy. He stated that we gave up the beauty and reverence of the traditional Latin Mass just at the time when people are attracted to color, form, and action more than ever. 🤔

One thing that biases these discussions is that only the state of the faith in the United States is usually discussed. The faith has exploded in other places, like Africa, while using the new Mass. No, that’s not proof of anything per se, but the “bring back the Latin Mass” movement is awfully myopic. Remember that all the problems we’ve experienced were foisted on us originally by men formed by the TLM. It’s not the one-stop solution some people think it is.

Could you imagine how hollow preaching about a loving God would have sounded between 1914 and 1960? The sin, evil, and inescapability of Satan in the world was impossible to avoid. There is a reason that judgement was a major issue before Vatican II. The problem was the church didn’t build a bridge to the world, and the church didn’t bring itself to the world, it brought itself to specifically the Boomers, a very uniquely selfish and atomized generation in world history. Love is a natural element of the old liturgy, it’s something we suddenly discovered post Vatican II and can apply to the old liturgy. It’s already there.

This clip has inspired the desire in me to watch the full episode.

Protestant here just to say, wow this was angled right. I'm in constant contact with an SSPX perish with concerns, and when Michael said that "you could do everything right, but forget to love" AH. GOSPEL. LITERALLY. AMEN!

Come on Matt, don’t be afraid to speak the truth. Mass attendance today is exponentially lower then it was 50-60 years ago. That is a fact. Now, is all of that because of the NO? Certainly not but the NO has not prevented this and we can point to things in the NO that has contributed.

I have a degree in sacred music from Franciscan University of Steubenville and his definition of sacred music and religious music at 6:45ish is so so good.

I agree with his view so much. Being from a TLM community, I have experienced so much judging and rules and Gods love is rarely spoken of. As a consequence it has breed many judgemental and love lacking people.

I am a protestant, I got tired of the non-reverent rock band so I started doing research into church history. I ended up at Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholism. I went to a western-rite Orthodox church and what I presume is a Novus Ordo church. I thought that the Novus Ordo mass was better than what I am used to, but still a little goofy. Then I went to Western-rite orthodox church, and it was night and day, so much better. From what I understand, the Latin mass is alot like the western-rite orthodox mass, but done in English. There are other reasons for why I am going Orthodox, but one of them on the list is a more reverent mass.

In Africa nearly every country has seen a huge growth in Catholicism since Vatican II

Considering the fact that Bishops tend to be intolerant of the reverent Novus Ordo more so than the TLM I do not see a bright future for the New Rite of mass. Unfortunately we have made liturgical mediocrity the standard in 95% of NO parishes.

Altar rails seems like a simple place to start. One church in my area uses them and parishioners can choose to either kneel or stand. This doesn't give the modernist parishioners much to complain about since they still have the choice to stand.

I believe the novus ordo is here to stay and the TLM will slowly be only done by the SSPX and entries like them.

As a young guy, I think a lot of people who really, really hate the Novus Ordo (Ordinary Form) of the Mass and call it a clown show, Protestant service, cartoon, or whatever must have been raised in the 70s and 80s when it was really that bad. I know my grandfather (as a recent convert from Episcopalianism) used to go to a Byzantine Rite church before he started the Anglican Ordinariate with a bunch of other ex-Episcopal priests. But he always told me that the Novus Ordo now versus the Novus Ordo then is like night and day. He said he loved how much more reverent it is than it used to be, at least in our archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. But I think it's still fair to argue that the Novus Ordo isn't perfect. In many churches I have been to, it can feel bland, especially when the choir consists of 90% Baby Boomers who are really starting to lose their voices anyway... I've seen at least one attempt at a youth choir, but they botched it by bringing in a blues lead guitarist. Great guy, devout Catholic, and excellent guitar player, but when you have a four-minute blues solo in the processional hymn that basically ends with the priest staring you down until you stop playing, you know you're doing something wrong.

I prefer the Novus Ordo. Grew up during the Latin Mass, and do not feel the Novus Ordo is irreverent! Don't know about what goes on in the States,but in South Africa always great reverence at our Masses!

We actually use the Altar rail at my Novus Ordo Mass and they use the patent.

The Tridentine mass and Novus Ordo are both great, and all are free to partake in whatever one they prefer.

There is only one Mass Pope St Pius V promulgated the Roman Missae in all perpetuity His Papal Bull Quo Primum settled this This is not about Latin or Vernacular This is about what is Catholic Do your proper homework please Additionally, do your due diligence, the seminaries do not teach what was taught before the modernists moved in in 1958. All the sacramental prayers were radically changed But the key change was the episcopal consecration of a Bishop rendering it null and void No valid Bishops, no valid priests, no valid priests NO sacraments This was a total sacking of the Catholic Church Please wake up 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

There’s no doubt that the Novus Ordo has been a disaster for the Church. Our lord says “by their fruits ye shall know them”- we now know the fruits of the Novus - it should be abolished or minimized for the hood of the Church. My experience is exactly what this guy says - many serious Catholics either go to the TLM or have joined eastern rite Churches. It’s not accidental that Matt, Trent Horn, Michael Loftin etc attend eastern rites.

Anyone else think it’s funny that “Tradition Latin Mass” is English and “Novus Ordo” is Latin?

I was a militant atheist for most of my adult life before settling into a comfortable agnosticism for a few years. I started having questions, but I still wasn't too serious. Then I'd heard about RCIA, so I looked into it (I was baptized into the Catholic faith as an infant, but that's about the only religious influence bestowed upon me by my parents). I became a student and was confirmed into the Roman Catholic faith last Easter. Since then I've been taking my faith very seriously. The more I learned, the more hollow I felt at my own church. I know the most important part of the Mass is receiving the Eucharist, but I started feeling alone at my own church. The community is wonderful, but I wasn't enjoying how little interaction we got with the priest. Other than receiving my confession, I could never actually speak with our priest. I started developing so many questions and felt like I couldn't speak to anybody. Our priest never seemed to enjoy talking to his parishioners. My Catholic friends don't understand their own faith (this is how I learned about cradle Catholics), and my Protestant friends use every question I have as an opportunity to blame all my problems on the heresy of Catholicism. The last straw was forcing myself to go to Mass and having to watch our church theater group (I didn't even know we had a theater group???) put on a ridiculous play about diversity and racism. The priest didn't even give his homily. Somewhere along the way the Roman Catholic Mass became all about us. After that I decided I was done and I haven't been back since. I knew I wasn't being fed spiritually and that it was time to go. During my struggles I started reading about Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy. A few weeks ago I visited a Byzantine church and it blew me away. I'd never experienced anything like it before. I felt like my senses were taken over by something greater than me. There was so much reverence and I left that first service knowing I'd return. I attended a second Divine Liturgy and the priest received my confession. I've only met the priest twice, but I felt more comfortable with him than I do with the priest who confirmed me at my old church. I have a feeling I will find what I'm searching for in the Eastern church. I don't want to disrespect my old church, because those people helped me to find my faith and many of them have become good friends. And I know their hearts are in the right place. I know I'm still a "baby Christian" but something didn't sit right with me and I couldn't pretend anymore. So yeah, I think there's something to be said about people craving tradition.

I agree with a lot of these ideas, especially that of the loss of the sense of the sacred and reverence, etc. The one disagreement I have is that one of the greatest developments in the Church since the close of the SVC and the introduction of the Missal of Paul VI is precisely the evangelization of the nations. The growth of the Church in Africa and Asia is one that has not been seen many times in history. The last time may have been after the discovery of the New World. Would the same growth still have occurred without the introduction of the vernacular and a more accessible and malleable liturgy. I do not know. But it is worth considering.

You really need to have someone from the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius in Chicago on. Their entire charism is resoring the sacred. They do the Mass in Latin and have reverant Masses in English too. But they do focus heavily on the love God has for us. It's also the rare Catholic Church that is growing in size.

Novus order is usually fantastic in my area at the Churches I have attended. Instead of complaining accept what the Church has given you and be part of the solution.

While Mother Theresa got busy tending the poor and the sick, not once had problem attending the LM or N Ordo, then later proclaimed a saint, we have here two people busy high praising LM over N Ordo, but probably not truly lived the teachings of the Catholic Church of comforting the sick, the poor and the voiceless.. of what value are these traditional rites when real servitude, mercy and compassion are wanting?

As a convert I’m not sure I would have converted if the mass was still mainly Latin. I like understanding what is going on.

Great 👍 Bring back Altar rails , reception of Jesus on our knees , the Paton , chant and uplifting liturgy that lifts outs hearts souls to God. We need to put God first in our liturgies and lives 🙏🙏

I know it is anecdotal, but our priest does ad orientem with portable kneelers because we don’t have an altar rail. Nobody is required to kneel. I’d say it is about 40% kneel. He also sings most things and even added a little Latin singing/chanting in. He came to the church two years ago, a year before I moved to the area, and as far as I have been told, nobody left over it. I could see people leaving, for sure, if this was implemented at scale but I am not sure it will be a huge amount. Also, when I look around our church vs other nearby Novus Ordo churches that don’t do this it is striking the difference in the overall feel and the way the people act. First, the way people dress is different. People are much less formal at other churches than here, not that everyone here is wearing suits and dresses, but nobody is dressing in revealing ways. But I do see some very revealing clothing at the other churches. People are much more careful at receiving the Eucharist in the hand here than other places, for those who choose to not receive it on the tongue. It really does make a difference, I think, these little changes our priest implemented/offers. It feels like a good compromise. I did go to my first Latin mass a couple weeks ago and my wife and I are now going to make a habit of doing it once a month. It is almost 2 hours away! It was not “fun” but we both walked out of there and looked at each other and said it felt like that was the way mass is supposed to be. It just felt right and I can’t explain it. You just have to experience it.

You can see how they're trained to not answer difficult questions, replacing what would be an answer for prepackaged waffle

I agree though that you’re not enlightened enough to just try to make Norvus Ordo more reverent because there are more issues such as the different calendars that we follow TLM vs. NO are different and there were various feasts/solemnities removed or replaced as an “optional memorial”. I find that the Norvus Ordo parishes tend to end up being the pastor’s preference rather than what’s best for the people. For instance, even First Friday and Saturday devotions are rare in NO parishes at least where I am. Also some priests may acknowledge some “optional memorials” while other priests may not and so you’re never guaranteed if the Mass’ focus/intentions will be for that feast. There is disunity because of the various options in the NO Mass and parishes. I can go to one NO Church and it can be very different from another NO Church that’s only minutes away from each other or within the same Diocese (whether it’s the music, tv’s, placement of the Tabernacle, sign of peace, etc.). But on the other hand, inTLM, they all do the same thing, and no feast/traditions is withheld from us. There is unity and consistency in TLM.

I go to a church that offers both the Traditional Latin mass and Novus Ordo mass. Though I don’t attend the traditional Latin mass, the fact that we have the traditional Latin mass has “raised the game” of our Novus Ordo mass which is very reverent due to the TLM being present.

You are so right, I'm looking at the Eastern Rite as there isn't a Latin Mass community close.

Hopefully there will be a synthesis of the NO and the TLM.

If anyone leaves just because of bad liturgy, then they were never serious about their faith. If anyone leaves just because their preferred liturgy isn't being celebrated, they were never serious about their faith.

I’ve been a diocesan Latin mass altar server for around 15 years now, and have never gotten to attend a ‘St John Cantius’-level NO. The odd thing is, something about seeing such NOs online draws me to them. Do I prefer the TLM, yes. Would I prefer it if St John Cantius was in my backyard? I’m not sure, honestly. Regardless, to those who struggle with the NO I suggest you do 2 things: 1) watch Fr Chris Alar’s talk where he walks through the NO step by step (it’s like 1-3 years old) & 2) read Scott Hahn’s ‘Supper of The Lamb’ I think when people go to the TLM and ‘don’t like it’ or just can’t ‘follow’ most people would suggest they need to simply understand it more; and rightfully so. Same thing for the NO. Due to the above 2 things my respect for the NO has really increased. Don’t try and ‘understand’ the NO better by only listening to those who dislike it. Imagine, again, if someone came to the TLM and to help them understand it better you had them watch videos of those who don’t like it. On a side note, I’ve heard that the number of Catholics have more than doubled worldwide since V2. So perhaps it has achieved its aim, outside of the western world. So, frankly, maybe what should be done is to let the non-western world have the NO so they can fine tune it to their cultures, but let us in the West always have what our cultures have fine tuned. But that’s just my opinion. I’m an advocate for ‘Cantiusizing’ The Church (doing what St John Cantius does- both as best you can)

When Mr. Gromly said we should receive the Lord on our knees and Matt responded not only on our knees but totally, is how our "hearts" is so very important of all things in recieving our Lord in the Holy Eucharist. Receiving Christ means being transformed by the Spirit into a person of love, humility, compassion and generosity. Being light and salt of the world isbwhat the gospels time and again has been teaching us through the liturgy generations upon generations. Thus being transformed in receiving Christ, moreso partaking in His Body and Blood, is reaching out to people with love and compassion taking out the blinders of hate and prejudice. This is how Christ through the Priests sends us in peace at the end of the Mass to proceed and live the gospels to our communities, workplace, friends, acquaintances and neighbors. Then and then only our hearts can trully be united with the Heart of our Jesus and make the fullness of our reverence in receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord no matter what Mass rite it would be.

That ending comment was incredible and i agree!

The language proper to the Roman Church is Latin, and the solemnity of the mass is it's beauty within our sacred tradition. These traditions passed from the beginning of Roman Church it's self, by the apostles, held in place by the Fathers and doctor's of faith for centuries with reverence. But it was the decline of Latin taught in schools that gave way to modernist views of acceptance in changing of the rite and thus changing of worship. For we now celebrate without the reverence, but joyful noise and that's not sacred in the house of the lord. 🙏✝️🕊

Don't know if anyone will see this but how would the liturgy be fixed? Is there a way or even a real movement to do so? I'm starting RCIA and this is one of my biggest struggles between orthodoxy and catholicism. I believe Catholic Theology, but I also feel starved for tradition compared to Orthodox divine liturgy. But there are no Eastern Catholics anywhere near me.

But lately in my area, many so-called “Latin Mass” people have been returning to the mainstream church bringing better practices to that church - for instance moving the Tabernacle back to the main altar. I think if serious Catholics didn’t abandon their geographical parish, abuses would have been fought against long ago.

The collapse began well before the Novus Ordo. Your 4:36 graph shows that. In Britain the precipitous decline began in 1960. It was the old church that dropped the cultural reins.

Is the world becoming more or less Catholic since the dilution of the Mass?

The conjecture at the end is more like when God permits evil but is able to bring good out of it. I think the intentions of many (but not all) were good when they created the NO but we don’t tell God how to worship Him, He tells us how to worship Him. So I think a return to the traditional Latin Mass is essential but that is a good point about the people having the right intentions. Of course, even if all Catholics have the wrong intentions, that doesn’t justify suppressing the Latin Mass.