Hey Guys, In this video, I go over the assembly of the Behringer Model D from the chassis to the circuits to give you a better understanding of the quality and build of these units. Thanks for watching, Jareth
You're welcome. The VCF range and scale is how you calibrate the filter for proper key tracking. When calibrated correctly, you can use the VCF by itself as a sinewave oscillator or to track harmonics of the oscillators for different tonal characteristics.
@@synthpro thanks for telling me !! thats so nice of u ! can i ask another question , i got poly D , think they are same at Filter part , mine doesnt work well , if switch to low pass. only hear Click sound , if switch to Hi pass , i can hear note .. can i get some advice about whick part should i check ? thanks!!!
What do you mean? It’s midi to CV, noise sorurce, HP and LP filter kinda notch filtr. or resonance, envelope generator, LFO and 3 VCO, all in one package. Try geting that for less than 300/500$ on eurorack modules😂 Unless you build them yourself and you get such an accuarcy emulating moog characteristics
Really interesting, thanks for the look inside. Quality at a great price. Love my Boog D :-) Apparently, the calibration and tuning is more stable on the later Model D's because they changed the trim pots for continuous rotary type pots, so they are more stable. Good move Behringer.
I wondered if it'd be possible to create a Minimoog "shell" that the Model D sits inside? If the knob and button contacts could be wired from the D to the new faceplate I make? I hope I'm making sense. I want the full sized Minimoog but can't afford one, so I wondered if it could essentially be a brain inside a wooden cabinet I construct.
Hey SynthPro! Thanks for showing us what's under the Behringer D's dress! This teardown and walkthrough was very informative and should calm some peoples nerves about this thing.
Hey Marshal Arnold, Your very much welcome, I was happy to be able to shed some light for those interested. I actually just watched your SE-02 comparison video and that was great, well done! All the best, Jareth
VickersDoorter well first the x32 is a mixer and the DeepMind 12 isn't a clone of the MiniMoog Model D. Big difference when a company claims to have a perfect clone of one of the most famous synths of all time for 10x less money. Those nerves are the nerves I'm speaking of.
Wow, thanks for doing this. This is really excellent. It's so cool to know what I'm buying. (Yes, I'm totally sold on this unit, a Model D for everbody!)
Behringer ,please make a replica of Linndrum LM2.You did it with 909 and 808,so I guess it won't be difficult for your talanted engineers to come up with a killer Linndrum machine.
great video, nice to see after the A/B test you did with the Moog model D. What a spectacular achievement for Behringer! Slam Dunk! Just bought one after your last video, it it really is great, adds something to my sub37
I have a question for you MR SYNTHPRO!!!! I HOPE YOU CAN ANSWER IT FOR ME On the original Moog Model D's (as well as the newer reissues), the Noise switch does 2 different things: 1) When the NOISE SWITCH is in the "WHITE" position, WHITE NOISE is sent to the audio mixer (which then supplies WHITE NOISE to the audio input of the VCF). Despite the fact that the NOISE SWITCH is in the "WHITE" position and WHITE NOISE is sent to the audio mixer, PINK NOISE (instead of WHITE NOISE) is sent to the MODULATION MIX POT as the selected modulation source.. 2) When the same noise switch is moved to the "PINK" position, PINK NOISE is now sent to the audio mixer, while RED* NOISE (instead of PINK NOISE) is sent to the MODULATION MIX POT as the selected modulation source. This I am sure of because it states it in the Moog Model D manual as well as the block/functional diagram of the Minimoog Model D.. However, the Behringer Model D APPEARS to work differently. (It is also less confusing.) 1) When the NOISE SWITCH is in the "WHITE" position, WHITE NOISE is sent to both the audio mixer and the MODULATION MIX POT. 2) When the NOISE SWITCH is in the "PINK" position, PINK NOISE is sent to both the audio mixer and the MODULATION MIX POT. This conclusion is based solely upon my Ears. If my Ears are correct, this means that the NOISE SWITCH on the Behringer Model D behaves like the NOISE SWITCH on an ARP ODYSSEY as opposed to the NOISE SWITCH on an actual MOOG MODEL D. The Behringer Model D instruction manual is rather vague on this matter. It simply states that the noise switch selects either "WHITE NOISE" and "PINK NOISE" as the internal noise source. It has nothing more to say on the matter. MY QUESTION: Are my ears right or wrong? Can you confirm the above for me???????? Personally, I prefer RED and PINK noise over (White & Pink) as modulation sources and white and pink as audio sources. However, there are a few applications where white noise makes a good mod source. (I can immediately think of an "Applause Patch" I use on my Odyssey where white noise modulation makes a close approximation of an audience clapping. On the other hand, I much prefer Red Noise modulation when playing Lunar Sea by Camel.) In addition to a Model D, I also have a Moog Voyager. Surprisingly, the Voyager lacks a NOISE SWITCH. Instead of supplying White or Pink noise, the Voyager offers a compromise. It supplies a hybrid of WHITE/PINK NOISE TO THE AUDIO MIXER and a hybrid of PINK/RED to the mod busses. (The info on the white/pink hybrid came from the Voyager manual. I got the info about the pink/red hybrid from an old SOS mag review, but I was never able to substantiate it). The Voyager is simpler, but I prefer additional options over simplicity. FWIW, The ARP Axxe only offers Pink Noise, but the Axxe, Odyssey, and 2600 are also capable of processing pink noise into random S&H modulation!! The Prophet-5 only offers white noise. Of course, if you have white noise, you can use the LPF or even the EQ on your mixer, to approximate pink noise if you really need it) As far as monosynths go, I prefer the semi-modular EMS VCS3 and ARP 2600. Both of these offer white noise along with a special noise filter that one can use to dial in white/pink/red (or low freq) noise as well as various in-between shades. (And the 2600 also offers random S&H). You can also route the noise outputs to numerous audio and modulation inputs. My Buchla 200 system has the incredible Source of Uncertainty module that offers +3dB (white noise), flat (pink noise), and -3dB (red or integrated white noise). I use it with my Buchla 294 comb filter module (or my Moog fixed filter bank) which is capable of boosting the high frequencies. This allows me to produce an assortment of rather unusual noise colors including blue and violet noises (differentiated white noise). Blue and Violet noise are great for simulating "steamy showers", misty rain, steam, and mechanical boiler rooms.
I was really hoping you would have removed the toggle switches as I would like to replace them with the more detailed design they installed on the Poly D where they have more edge to the design, also looking to paint them the same colors as minimoog.
Can you do a piece on a tear down of a re-issue genuine Moog Model D for a comparison? I come from aerospace like you in electronics and I’m interested in how Moog is building their modern version of the Model D. Thanks in advance.
Excellent explanation! stumbled upon this video because my current unit has a faulty MIDI IN input. I know this might be not super interesting to answer but does anyone have any clue what's the first thing to look at when trying to repair that input? Thanks SynthPro!!
Thanks for the insight into the electronic components and explaining the difference between discrete and integrated and through hole. With that in mine should a discrete SMT sound identical to a discrete through hole in your opinion (assuming the same circuit design) or are there a lot more variables in the tolerances etc in through hole design than SMT? It's easy to think looking at through hole that it sounds more chaotic, raw and analog just looking at it, whereas the SMT is all neat and pretty and manufactured and people seem to say modern analog sounds sterile, too stable and lacks warmth. Seems to make sense even though it may not hold any truth. Does discrete really just refer to it being a custom design rather than an off the shelf design? Have you compared the internals of other Behringer synths and noticed significant differences in circuit design contributing to a different sound or are they mostly the same layout with a few tweaks to change the sound a bit? Thanks
Thank you for watching☺. These are great questions and it is a fairly large answer but will explain this the best I can. Both through hole and surface mount can have a very similar sound but it's all to how the engineering is done. There are definitely things to consider such as tracing sizes, component wattages, inductance, etc. In most cases through hole does tend to sound more lively due to the size of tracings and most components such as resistors being 1/4 to 1/2 watt where as a lot of surface mount components range from very small wattages to the same or equal wattage rating to that of through hole. For those that don't really understand current limit...here is a example...think of a cheap set of jumper cables using smaller wire than the more expensive jumper cables, it may be able to deliver the voltage but not the current needed to turn over the car. This would be an example of very small tracing carrying current on a surface mount board. Needless to say, in most synth designs there is not a lot of current draw in circuits but in some components, the current does play a factor with how some amplifiers/transistors behave therefore it's always a nice idea to prevent current limiting in some areas. Overall some of the ideas of one sounding better than the other is really in the mind but there are factors such as tolerance specs, matching components, age, and overall hours used which all can play a factor to how instruments sound. Of course today's manufacturing of components has such a tighter tolerance than what we had in the past so components can actually be more predictable and way more reliable, this is not to say old components are a bad thing because sometimes the slight tolerance differences between components is also what makes the sound unique. Moog back in the early days of the minimoog would actually match transistors for the ladder filter etc so they tend to have a better sound in my opinion than the later minimoogs which they only matched critical transistors, (this comes back to the importance of engineering and component selections). Synths like the Behringer D are nice because they actually used a match transistor package per ladder section so this actually makes it slightly less sensitive to thermal changes within the ladder filter tuning. The oscillator circuits are still quite drifty due to them using the none thermally regulated version if the minimoog oscillator, (this is the oscillator that most minimoogs have and people actually desire due to the phase interaction). This biggest differences in my opinion to synths like the Behringer D is the fact that the control voltage is digitally generated, this means that the voltage will be accurate but the circuits using this voltage still has that natural drift due to it being a true analog design. I hope this helps answer your questions a bit. Jareth
I wish someone would sell me their empty model D case so I can turn in to an effects rack to fit with my model D and Cat I’ve been looking everywhere for the empty 60HP case to fit the behringer rack stand
Excellent series of videos on this new synth, which on the face of it offers great sound, for not a lot of cash. Not going through all the comments, so pardon me if i repeat, SMD stands for Surface Mount Device. Explained in the video. Just waiting for the comments that say "I can hear the difference between SMD components and through-hole components!!! :-)
Terrible.dee, clearly Uli is no saint. I’m curious if you have Googled the guys running the oil companies you buy gas from, or the Pacific Rim folks you buy most everything in your house from? Behringer has done some crappy stuff over the years, but I think his current direction is a valid service to the industry. Quality, low cost versions of PUBLIC DOMAIN products enables a new generation (not to mention us vintage musicians who don’t have a spare $3500) to afford and incorporate some of these classic synths into our rigs.
Thanks for sharing this Jareth. It's great you took the time to explain some of the basic tech terms. You did that so well without being insulting or over-complicated. If you ever have time you should consider doing a basic electronic music tutorial series. There are plenty of us out here that can just handle a soldering iron well enough to blob up a short circuit. :(
The extreme use of SMD electronics is actually quite worrysome. Especially with SMD fuses and SMD caps. That shit is VERY difficult to replace if something goes bad after some time. So a lot of these will probably end up as electronic waste sooner or later and people won't bother spending money to repair them, unlike you would with restoring a vintage Mini Moog. So yeah the mass of SMD parts on the board is quite a huuuuge issue.
KRAFTWERK2K6 I know where your coming from but SMD is here to stay in most productions. here's the truth. If you open moog synths you will find SMD throughout the LP, Sub, Mother, etc. Same with DSI. Whats even worse is that service manuals and schematics are not available for those so if they break, its tough to follow failures. Now, the old moogs I can work on all day long, good schematics, service notes, etc. The schematics are available for the B model D so if there are problems, it be followed. The model D does have a lot of through hole caps which is also a plus.
What, NO schematics with the newer Moog and DSI synths? Well that shows how much trust these companies have left towards their userbase. Especially for the upper range of gear that is not really cheap. And yeah, I do get the point with SMD parts in todays productions. It really seems that we cannot have the good without the bad and the ugly. At least in the cheaper price segment i can live with that sour compromise.
KRAFTWERK2K6 yeah, no schematics or service notes for moog or DSI but that goes for lots of companies today. The way they handle problems is either factory repairs or board swaps, Im not against this procedure but its going to be a major problem when these instruments are discontinued, techs like myself will be left without any way to make repairs. It's not really all that sour with surface mount, sure its hard to repair without proper tooling and component values are not always on parts which can be a pain so you have to either look them up in the parts list or by values in the schematics. Lots of modern gear worries me for the reason of no info for servicing and we are talking expensive brands. It's a shame because it used to be that only certified techs could get manuals but most companies don't even do that anymore😞
Sorry were you paid to make this video? The reason I ask is you said "what I am ALLOWED to talk about here" at 9:40, you also state that it is fully analog even though it has midi, usb, and digital dac control of the reference (9:50). My pet hate with the entire synth industry is misleading use of the term digital, in order for it to be analog is has to actually be analog right? If an analog piece of technology has one digital circuit it is no longer analog. Perhaps I will be flamed for these inconvenient facts?
No, I was not paid but did sign a NDA. When I say it's fully analog, I'm talking more about the architecture of the synthesizer, the fact it is having to use a DAC to drive the synthesizer is no different than when we talk about vintage analog synths like the moog source, Pro One, ProMars, etc. I do bring up that the 440Hz tune reference is not analog like a vintage model D, (it's a signal generated off the processor) but the synthesizer itself is analog and even uses analog inputs such as CV. The controller circuit is digital but the synth is analog.
The SE 02's sound-producing circuitry is "as analogue", but the modulators (envelope, lfo, etc.) seem to be digital. Additionally, because it has presets, there's a level of indirection between the control surface and the analog voice.
Im not sure, It would be fun to get my hands on one, if Roland is reading this and would like to send me one for a none biased review, I would be happy to ; 0 )
synthpro ....I am thinking of buying one-also one of these behringer- I have the new mini d re issue and it is fabulous - I will send the Roland to you on loan if you want to evaluate it and make video - the presets and the sequencer on the Roland seem like a great idea - maybe it can be wired to a rack of behringers for multi voices
As a semi conductor technician my experience is that smd components "last" longer than the average trough hole component. So other than the pots and switches this thing should last a very long time np.
Thank you very much. I just got one, finally, & love it. I also have the Pro 1 & 2 of the Wasps, all solid & excellent, plus a ton of Behringer signal processing rack gear. Not a single problem with any of them. Roland? not so much. I have 5 pieces of theirs, & every single one came with a problem.
lots of comments here about how Behringer is evil etc. This isn't made for Moog fans, nor it is made for professional recording artists, nor is it made actually for anyone who ever heard of Moog. The target market is the one that was created by Korg from the Volca series, the one that was created by Roland from the Boutique series (whose prices actually oscillate around the $300 mark) and obviously the rising Eurorack fandom. Personally, I wouldn't have bought a Moog D. That's because there are tons of filters for Eurorack that 'recreate' the Moog sound, and for $3k, I'd prefer to use my $$$ for a few modules. Now for $300, I might or might not buy it the Behringer (it's actually bulky considering I'm a Euro player). I actually bought a couple of Roland Boutique's, but they're underused because they don't fit well in my Euro workflow. I love my Volca Bass however and I'll never part from it. And last but not the least, with Moog, I'd be only interested in their bigger, full modular systems. In terms of keyboards, I'm more of a Sequential Circuits guy, but then again, Korg and Behringer (DM12) have great offerings these days. Bottomline, this thing is a gadget for most of the people who're going to buy it. Expect a mass of them to be put on eBay within 3/6 months of the purchase date. It won't lower the value of the Moogs, as long as there's a continued interest / revival in vintage analogue synthesizers.
Thanx for in the insights :) Since you have it, what is the depth for a Eurorack mount ? Is it width 71HP? What are the power requirements for a Eurorack mount ?
So I have taken the moog model d manual and compared the features and they are the same except some switch colors/orientation and patch points...If you can confirm this synth pro this would be awesome.Also if you hook up your prototype does it transmit midi data into abelton and if so what are the cc# numbers ..(hoping lfo will be able to be assigned to mod wheel)
When do they start using normal components again, i hate smd and strange surface ic's. I want to know whats in there and want to measure easily without to have fiddling around those small crazy smd components.
Surface mount is all good, more compact and an overall cleaner finish, however, a DIY surface mount component replacement is murder to even attempt, unlike old school through-hole components.
im curious what your take on the poly d is. ive read that the gain staging is different and they dont really overdrive like the model d. do you know if thats true and if so is that something thats mod-able?
I didn’t know it was discreet, I don’t know anything about electronics but I’d swear on anything that all of the vintage synths I’ve owned anything that was discreet analog always sounded better for whatever reason
I honestly want one for the eurorack compatibility alone. Even if I were to save and set aside the cash for a real D (which admittedly, sounds slightly better) that feature alone makes this worth having separately.
hi, synthpro. I've heard a saying if you replace all capacitor into audio class capacitor (such as, elna silmic or nichicon audio grade capacitors), the sound will get improved directly. Is that true? If so, perhaps buy a synth and DIY with audio grade capacitor will be a wise way to go. And does this work on Behringer Model D?
That is true in some cases I have seen. What tends to happen is with some cheaper caps, they are not true to their values or have a tolerance issue causing DC leakage which can effect how AC is passed in a audio coupling situation. I have not tried replacing caps in my Behringer model D yet but I'm sure if you put some higher spec caps in areas of the coupling circuits, it could improve the low end a bit, (thats the only area I have noticed any noticeable difference). There are lot of factors though, when it comes to audio circuits...some of it is just hype but there are some truths mixed in for sure.
It really isn't any harder than other modern synths. Unlike some of the bigger brands out there, I actually have schematics for the Behringer D which can help a lot if troubleshooting is needed. Surface mount electronics does take special skill and tools because you can easily damage tracings or overheat components easier due to size but this is the same style electronics you find in new moogs, Sequential, korg, Roland, etc.
Behringer, we wait for more synth dinosaurs! :) Really hope you'll make an Arp 2600 modular clone with some extras! Or Jupiter 8 clone... well... this will be even more awesome if you'll dare! I'm ready to buy these things! Your prices are really good, keep in this way, please. (not the whole World can buy Model D for 300$ still... and IMHO the prices are well balanced)
IMO, OBx is cool but... it was re-created well even in the well-known VST plugin... :-| It sounds 99% the same, I was surprized! And I've never met an adequate emulation of Jupiter8. Of course, having OBx in a solid clone would be great as well! But (IMHO) Jupiter 8 and Arp2600 are more welcome because these are pretty rare and hard to maintain in a good condition (even if you'll buy a broken one, it's a real quest to fix it well).
I see a lot more Jupiter 8s come up for sale than I do the OBX. The are a very rare synth it seems (there are 2 on C'sL, right this moment (at suspiciously low prices it must be said!) or maybe it's simply the case that those that own them don't let them go?
I'm not ready to spend 10+ grands for Jupiter 8 :) OBx's sound is cool but I think it's not hard to buy it (and it's not _that_ expensive). Also few VST makers did great plugins that sounds almost like this synthesizer. I've seen the comparison on RU-vid... OK, I'm repeating already :) The other important detail is that old synths weight _a lot!_ This "gives" you some pretty bad limitations. I like that Model D is so compact and they've managed to create so powerful sound in this format. Imagine if they'll make a version of Arp 2600 and so compact... it will be a real blast :)
Hey, Jareth! Cool review, thank you! Would like to know more about PSU part of this thing. I don't see a transformer, so is it hidden somewhere or this thing works from some sort of a negative rail generator IC? Actually there must be a transformer or a PSU box somewhere, isn't it?
Thank you very much! Ok, here is how this supply works: The main power comes from a 12VDC wall adapter and is regulated down for the plus voltages. The negative voltage is made up by a switching IC, its using some very small packaged inductors, this signal is filtered and then powering a negative voltage regulator. Based on the time I have ran this unit, I have had absolutely no troubles and no heat out of the wall adapter, everything seems to work very well and don't have any issues with parasitic hysteresis in the voltage rails.
Is there any way you could add CV control of each oscillator independently for chords? I think stock it just comes with one CV for all the oscillators.
So if this is polychained, would that simply allow note information? In other words, all of the Envelopes, Osc settings, Filter position, Resonance position....etc would need to be set on each synth individually right?
Excellent walkthrough. I'm one of those tech-savvy guys but I plan to leave the Behringer Model D stock just for the vintage Minimoog sound. Just curious, have you tried calibrating the Behringer like you do your vintage Model D to see how she behaves?
Thank you very much! I don't blame you at all, I'm honestly the same as you, I like originality. I have not played with the calibrations yet but I'm sure it will work in a very similar manner.
Are the pots threaded or not? Can't tell. Want to bolt them to the panel. Why are they using plastic 3,5mm connectors? I'd desolder those and use metal ones but there might be a grounding design issue there? Also I'd like to switch out all the toggle caps to all black. Behringers got to have spares, right? Basically I wish to trick it out a bit and make it last as I think it sounds fantastic!
Even if the pot bushings are threaded, we're looking at a prototype, so the production model could be different. Similarly, there is no guarantee that the production units will even have the rotary switches bolted to the panel. As for the rocker switch caps, they may even be standard parts, so you might be able to get them from a mainstream electronic parts vendor like Mouser or Digi-Key.
Do you know if uses the transistor oven method for temp control. Or a tempco resistor ? . Anyway thankyou so much for showing us inside. I think the digital a440 ref is great at least you can safely say your a440 is going to be spot on :-)
It actually does not use any heater method, this is something I have been sharing with Behringer about. with this said, it still seems to be quite stable, I think that is due to all the circuits being close together. Your very much welcome, was happy to shed some light on the mystery of the operation. All the best, Jareth
synthpro . Thankyou very much for the info Jareth and your reply. Thats good to know thats its very stable , but hey its analogue and the imperfections in my opinion are what controbute to the massive sound of the original moog. :-). Im guessing maybe the modern smd 3046s are generally better in performance than the older ones.
It is an ongoing myth that SMD parts are apparently worse quality than through-hole. That isn't really the case. If a part blows up, it's usually down to bad design of the circuity than the part itself. If anything, components today are *far* more robust compared to years ago. What people forget is that it's really the solder. Lead-free solder doesn't last as long, so it cracks from heat over time and causes all sorts of issues.
Mister Shledge. Thats very true, really the only weak components I find in SMD are electrolytic caps, I believe it has to do with the fact they are really small and since these are a fluid based part, they just dry out or loose their dielectric property faster. Another big cause of failures is the mishandling of the circuit board. Electrostatic discharg, (ESD) can kill or shorten the life of components. Lead free solder is definitely not good but has became the standard in most countries so just have to deal with it.
Your welcome Martin! Yeah, thats not as cheap for sure in euros which is odd to me because euros is worth more than USD so I would figure it to be cheaper.
Thank you synthpro, for pointing out the difference between integrated and discrete! (Parts of the synth world have declared ICs to be discrete electronics in their pursuit of ignorance...)
What is your feeling regarding the quality and potential longevity of those single turn calibration trimpots? Behringer already changed them to multiturn trimpots in V2 but I am concerned about the single turn ones since that is what I am (stuck) with unless I return it.
Questor Jones I don't see the trim pots being an issue, I have not adjusted my unit yet but just from looking at them, they are built like most other trim pots on the market.
