What Vatican II ACTUALLY Did 

Good for you stick with Tradition ....Vatican 2 is of Satan .

Lee, you hit the nail on the head. Deo Gratias.

​@Connor Ansberry did you not read his entire statement?

@@chommie5350 your statement is heretical btw U don’t get to cherry pick

But this is typical of anyone who "comes back" to something. Because me too, I was born after the Council. And I experienced the exact opposite of what you eperienced: before, people didn't pay attention to the liturgy, didn't understand what was said, mumbled senslessly mangled words in a totally foreign language, and I can testify this because I saw that among my elderly relatives; faith was made of private prayers and formal devotions, and it wasn't nourished by the Word of God itself; the very Gospel was almost unknown. The only people who were involved and really lived and understood liturgy were the educated ones, the cultured ones. Nowadays we can enjoy traditional mass and understand the liturgy and the word of God in Latin because education is more common: that's why it is possible an appreciation of the traditional ways and an involvement in them that the old generations never experienced. Whomever "return" to the traditional ways can do so because he/her has a level of awareness about faith that wasn't always (and I would say it was almost never) present in the old times, at least in the maority of the faithfuls. And anyway: why we believe? Because we can "follow the traditional feast days and fasts"? Or because we want to follow Christ? Because we can "have a devoted prayer life"? Or because we can live like Christ did? Because we want to "assist" to mass? or because we want to bring the Eucharist to the world? What is the real "essential" of our faith: the rituals? the traditions? the clergy? the hierarchy? or the Spirit who blows wherever He wants? Jesus was a "tradition-breaker": he didn't observe the sabbath, he didn't observe the ritual purification, he didn't give a damn about "pure" or "impure" foods or people, he didn't care about religious hierarchy, he openly spoke against traditions, when they were against people. And for all this time we have been trying to wrap Him again in traditions, hierarchy, rituals, THINGS, until they have become more important than Him, than His Word, than His Word FOR THE PEOPLE..

🙏 I will pray for your dad

In my prayers tonight

My most heartfealt condolences brother. Praying for your dad, for you, and for all others he left behind. God's peace be with you man.

We will all hopefully reunite with him in heaven🙏🤍

In my prayers

We can educate people about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist all we want, but if our mass doesn't actually treat Christ like he is truly present, then no one will believe us

Amen. I help prepare youth for Conrifmation, but I also know our parish's pitfall is not having a youth group! It's keeping the knowledge imparted alive and expanding which would be the first step in better Catechism. Unfortunately, we haven't got very many consistent volunteers to do this work.

@@DoctorDewgong You’re absolutely right! Reverence is defined one of the keys to Mass. A Novus Ordo Mass can be great if done correctly (meaning reverence, which is something that many NO parishes are lacking) and likewise a Tridentine Mass can be pretty bad If done poorly. Although the Tridentine Mass is rarely done poorly.

@@doobat708 I hear you. It seems like nobody wants to volunteer for anything at my parish as well. It’s unfortunate because it’s a way for the Laity to serve the Church more.

did you ever count how many things they are calling for "revival" in in one way or another... since the council. Eucharistic revival Catechetical revival marriage revival and so on.... Kind of makes one think... doesn't it?

I am interested in converting, and I have no idea where to start. I don’t have a Catholic Church near me, and my family is very anti-Catholic. I feel lost. 😔

@@dewilew2137 same here, just find a Catholic friend like I did! They should be overjoyed to help you on your path!

@@dewilew2137God be with you ❤

Patience brother..

The mysticism and latin chants were never supposed to leave. The council wanted those things retained. It was a small committee after the council that stripped those things away

First off, congratulations on your Baptism and Confirmation! I agree that many congregations have difficulties with joining in song. The parish I was Confirmed at emphatically did not, and it was a mild let down when I had to move and found the parish here is a congregation of shy singers! My answer is to think of it this way: it's not the quality or volume that matters, it's the content of our hearts when we sing that does. That said - if you're active in any way in your parish, have good contact with people, etc, you could suggest that, evey so often, you take time before Mass to sing a few songs by way of warm up and familiarisation, so people feel less hesitant about singing them.

It’s up to the church and priest as to how traditional the mass is. My Church’s Novus Ordo has incense, Latin, and is very reverent. Shop around!

@@billmartin3561 not an option for everyone, especially rural areas

Facts.

@@lukebrown5395 Hi Luke 👍

@ Evan Nuh-Koo-La Agreed There are practices post-Vatican ii that are good and some that are not. Lack of reverence in worship is a big problem, post Vatican ii. Some of the old ideas and practices that should have died out are still common ["Sunday duty" -- In/out as quickly as possible is a very bad idea. As are complaints about homilies and a lack of reverence for the Liturgy of the Word still exist -- "Get to the important stuff, father"] Just sayin'

@@here_we_go_again2571 the sunday obligation is still a thing. it hasn’t changed at all.

THANK YOU! Reason 1 of my need/calling to be a youth minister 🎉

Amen, brother.

hear!, hear!

Excellent. Agree wholeheartedly.

Sad but true. Is it really the changes themselves that separate us, or our reactions and complaints about them?

This. I am involved in the music program in our parish (I am a multi-instrumentalist and involved with 3 different choirs, including director of a children's schola) and music is highly devisive. We are slowly re-introducing music from our own Catholic musical traditions, but it's a slow process. People want to hold onto the Protestant hymns and hippie music. Our current hymnal used in our parish (an official publication of the CCCB) is about 50% Lutheran, we've just plucked them and sometimes adapted them. The USCCB actually has recently done an excellent, very accessible review of some of the material in the current Catholic hymnody and identified things that were problematic. Understanding the history of music in the church and the development of our musical tradition helps make sense of the direction of the Council. Musical innovation is good, but it has to have rails. We have our own musical tradition we too often ignore, which is sad because it is beautiful and rich and reflects the Liturgy back perfectly.

We are all different and different things appeal to different people. Noisy music at Mass is not for me...

@@patriciajohnson1894hardly seems universal or Catholic when there are such extremely varying ideas of how to worship..

The worship isn't about your personal needs and desires, and that personal immanence is the reason the Church is so wounded right now. The word "I" was used 20 times in this personal testimony of yours. Are you aware that religious vocations halved with the advent of Vatican II? You wanted a Mass that focused more on the laity than on God. Well, you've got it.

@@Schrodj1 Is it "more focused on laity" or just allowing them to be more engaged and involved in their Faith? Am not quite sure what the broader problem is there: Trads etc seem to be intent on stretching this bizarre thread from Vat2 pin straight to "clown mass" without recognizing any positives at all. Also, has our Creed not always said "I Believe"? As in, we each, as Individuals reaffirm our Faith during Mass? I'm not sure there's anything particularly self serving about that.

“High quality music”. We traded Gregorian chant, Palestrina, Luis de Victoria, Bach, an inexhaustible treasury of timeless beauty for the glory of God…. for pop music. Is the tabernacle off to the side part of what “spoke” to you “in your own language” as well? V2 wasn’t the problem, it was this very mindset you outlined that’s still dominant. People in the mid 20th century wanted the Church to meet them on their own terms.

Kind of like how you're chasing a feeling of projection?

Praying the Rosary during Mass is not praying the Mass and its one of the reasons the Vernacular was introduced so that people could understand every word spoken during the Mass

@@hemsty2 the rosary is meditative and when you pray it at mass you are meditating on calvary and the mass itself is calvary continued.

@@oscarvaldez8636 - Then why bother with Mass at all? Stay home and talk to Mary there God doesn't need Mass, we do.

@@atrifle8364 Are you aware that you are saying that hundreds of million of people before Vatican II and for centuries didn't have a motive to go to Mass? They should have stayed in home because they were not repeating the same trite worn-out sentences, some of which were written in an Italian trattoria.

Even before Vatican II one of the Pius popes (I sadly forgot which one) said that people should be focused on the prayers of the mass, not on other prayers like the rosary, when at mass. That's why bilingual missals were introduced, to help the faithful follow the mass. We shouldn't glorify the old practice of people praying the rosary during mass. People back then did this because they didn't know what else to do, not because it was the intention of the church. It wasn't.

I would add that he mentioned that the number of Catholics has doubled since Vatican II, as if that were a result, but the world's population has more than doubled since it ended, so you can't say Vatican II caused a growth in Catholicism.

@@Nerval-kg9sm the Catholic Church in America has declined by 50% since Vatican II.

praise God!! the liturgy is to be prayed no matter what form!

What you said resonates with me. I love the TLM; I attend it every Sunday (unless I’m busy), and also attend weekdays TLM every now and then. But I continue to attend Novus Ordo masses as well, and I’m happily part of several ministries that serve at Novus Ordo masses. I think a lot of people - and I personally know a few - once they discover the TLM, they rightly love it for its beauty and reverence, but then they start to see the Novus Ordo as inferior, as something incorrigible. Objectively speaking, yes the Novus Ordo is lacking in many areas compared to the TLM. For some reason Bugnini and his cronies removed 87% of prayers and saw the need to revise the remaining 13%. The amount of allowance for innovations is also startling, resulting in the clown masses and numerous other abuses we are very well aware of. However, the Novus Ordo is still a valid rite, and God is still present there, body blood soul divinity. The vast majority of Roman Catholics attend the NO, and are nourished by it. This includes me; I grew up in it, and while I'm wary now of the liturgical abuses that take place, I still attend (and serve!) at reverent Novus Ordos. In fact, I find I prefer the weekday masses, because there is rarely any music then, so less opportunity for profane music. I've been to masses in Cambodia when I was on mission trips there. We had mass in a simple multi-purpose hall, a wooden table for the altar, and everyone sat on the floor. I always tell people, don't you dare tell me that that place is any less reverent than a Gothic-style cathedral with beautiful stained glass and lovely organ music. The unchanging God, the same yesterday today tomorrow and forever, is equally present in both places. I love the TLM. Yes, it objectively contains more than the Novus Ordo, in terms of the prayer texts. All the different gestures enable us to raise our eyes, hearts, and minds beyond this earthly sphere towards heaven. The priest himself "disappears", because the focus should always be on God. The Latin language is wonderful. Gregorian chant and all other sacred music is ethereal. I lament that all these and so many more are lacking from many Novus Ordo masses today, especially as it is not in accordance with Sacrosanctum Concilium. But that doesn't mean we just throw the Novus Ordo in the dustbin and criticise anyone and everyone who likes it and attends it. God is equally present in the NO as He is in the TLM, and many people are nourished by the NO. I think many people are forgetting Pope Benedict XVI's aim at liturgical peace, by desiring that the Extraordinary and Ordinary Forms coexist alongside each other, that each enriches and is enriched by the other.

Boy some lefties really got to you lol

@@porygon5 It is not really called the Novus Ordo. It is just the Ordinary Order of the Mass. The Latin Mass today is not the preferred order of the universal Church. The internet makes it sound like like the Latin Mass is a big deal, but really it is a fringe part of the Church.

@@trinidadraj152 Yes, it is. It is very fringe. So why the obsession to forbid it and restrict it as much as possible? Let the people choose. You don't need to encourage the Latin Mass but it is not necessary to launch a yihad against them.

I think you've hit the nail on the head exactly. There is far less opportunity for interior participation in the new mass. At best you get something like the sense of a school class reciting its lesson together. At worst, the whole thing sounds as if it's wearisome for everybody, including the priest. He generally has far too much to say, and either sounds tired or over-dramatic. Incidentally, the priest's idiosyncrasies can be a significant distraction for anyone trying to pray. The worst example I've encountered is the pronunciation of 'grievous' in the 'penitential act' at the beginning of mass. I wish priests would realise that the word has only two syllables. It does NOT rhyme wirh 'devious'!

@@christopher4192 - Have you tried praying in Latin as a foreign language? It's exhausting if you have the translation in front of you. Participation is hopeless without a translation. Nothing guarantees interior participation. Almost all Latin almost guarantees no interior participation.

@@atrifle8364 I think you probably start by using your missal to pray the Canon in translation. Once you become familiar with the unvarying prayers in this way, it will be easier to pray them using the Latin text. Of course, there's no need ever to move from the vernacular translation, and you probably wouldn't want to do so unless you already had a grounding in the Latin language.

@@atrifle8364 I disagree with your premise. The interior participation promoted by the traditional Mass doesn't come only from the language itself but from the actions, the postures, the prayers, the music, and the silence. An interior disposition is developed in your heart and from this flows a genuine exterior participation.

The point of the Church is to gain something much better than the best Latin Mass forever. Nursing grudges is not helpful.

@@atrifle8364 Right. The Latin Mass is not the most important thing. The decadence of the Church is appalling. Loss of people and devotion after Vatican II. Next stop: Introducing pagan rites into the Liturgy

The involvement of the laity needs to be dramatically scaled back, because it greatly detracts from the role of the priest and has partially led to the crisis in priestly vocations. Why should I be a priest when I can preach the Word of God as a lector, give communion as an extraordinary eucharistic minister, or lead the congregation in the responsorial psalm?

I think a lot of priests are just tired and worn out. (Too many people, not enough priests to lead) They are happy for whatever help they can get. I do not doubt that many who volunteer to be readers, Eucharistic ministers, etc., are sincere in their beliefs and came forward when asked to serve in those capacities.

i often wonder what we would think if we were transported to a 3rd or 4th century Mass....It would be very different from both the Tridentine and Novus Ordo liturgies...

@@sneed3529 If one enters the priesthood for power and status, they are in the wrong place. There are certain things that should only be left for the priesthood, but it is to God's Glory that the laity are involved in the process as much as possible. It becomes a communion in the literal sense.

@@RedRiverMan Most definitely. The Church like anything else in God's creation is a living organism. its nature is to grow and change for the better. Most often than not, those changes are painful. Jesus went to the synagogue, as a good Jew. He didn't speak Latin and once that curtain reaped from the Holy of Holies, it changed everything.

After Pope Paul saw the fruit of Bugnini’s destruction of the liturgy he sent him to Iran as pro nuncio and never spoke to him again. Another point. Father Casey doesn’t mention the proportion of Catholics who attend Mass pre and post Vatican 11. Take France which is typical. In 1960 41per cent attended Mass weekly, 10 years later it was 14 per cent. The destruction of the liturgy was a tragedy.

Actually no it's poorly structured, noisy like the world outside, and mediocre. My wife's Baptist church does it 10 times better. I have some sympathy for priests adding novelties like clown Masses and similar. How else to make it interesting for people? The young, such as there are, sit there looking disengaged, so the wheel has turned full circle. Now, the Sixties rite looks passe, as it has done for 50 years. The revival of quality TLM, driven by those same young people, restores 1500 years of organically grown highly moving ritual where everyone is fully engaged throughout, thus implementing V2 far better than Bugninis basket case Mass. How soon before this can be honestly discussed??

Congratulations

Are declining vocations, parishioners, liturgical abuses ,and loss of moral authority spiritual fruits ?. Look at the rate of parish closures, the lack of belief in the real presence and poor catechesis in the laity as a whole, go to a Eastern Rite or TLM to see a reverent mass. At mass your at the foot of the cross, not at an entertainment venue.

The Catholic church is dying, in 100 not 1000 years will be nothing more than a thing of the past

We do accept Vatican 2 but there needs to be recognition of the garbage served.up afterwards, that departed from V2. It's been a disaster. Back to Latin Mass is the way that V2 envisaged the liturgy, people need to read Sacrosanctum Consilium not buy this 1969 sales pitch. The prelates were sharply divided...

@@RickW-HGWT - Maybe all that would be worse without VII. Then there would be no NO to blame for what are clearly society wide problems.

Deo Gratias... Well said.

Well, do it!! Just in place of Latin, use your own language [that's even way more beautiful if you really think about it, for all of your community will understand each word that is being said for a way greater significance]. Also sing beautiful chorus too, Gregorian style if you want, just again, try them in vernacular to help people comprehend. Make sure to make every aspect of your mass solemn, and you will find the tradition and transcendence we love so much too in there, and all of that while following Vatican II precepts and the official magisterium of the Church!! is a win-win. You are right people should involve themselves more in their faith, though. But that was an even worse problem before Vatican II, for laity was totally disconnected of what was going on, they were barely allowed to question or study anything, it was solely reserved to ordained ministres, and they were asked to obey for the sake of obedience, not of love and understanding. We are, indeed, way better than before the council. In fact, if you as a layman can appreciate and understand anything about our rites, that's solely thanks to Vatican II that allowed it, brother, please be more grateful of it and understand what the council really purposes and expects from us, instead of focusing on what "it didn't do".

@@GranMaese I didn’t join the Catholic Church for rock concerts, clown masses, and people receiving our Lord in their hands. I joined because I am a stickler for tradition, and all things old. It’s because I hate the modern world so utterly and entirely that I only find escape in the Church.

@@GranMaese please watch the documentary Mass of the Ages. It’s free on RU-vid.

@@Lexarf0rk I've watched episode 1 now.... It was sensationalist at best, brother. Sorry. Don't get me wrong, is a very well made documentary, technically speaking, but is deceptive in what it says, to say the least. Extremely sensationalist, that uses nostalgia as bait. Per example, near the beginning, they mention shortage of priests. There is indeed a shortage of priests, but that shortage would be even worse without Vatican II, because the shortage comes from an illogical fear and anger against all religiosity and responsibility overall in newer generations, not due to Vatican II [the film doesn't say that and rather wants you to believe is the fault of Vatican II, somehow, which is simply a fallacy]. In fact, it wants you to believe everything wrong in the world, like depression, divorces, etc., are due to Vatican II, or better said, due to the lack of the Traditional Latin Mass, which is simply absurd. On the contrary, Vatican II has made it possible for many people in our generations to encounter their way back to Christ, for it has allowed them to finally understand what is even going on with the Church to begin with. Heck, this very film wouldn't be possible if not for the Vatican II allowing laymen to give their opinions on official matters and in vernacular language. Think about it. Then there was this section where a lot of "famous" people that used to be catholic are not anymore... and the film wants you to believe that's Vatican II's fault again... When those people would've abandoned the Church anyways, for they have chosen the path of concupiscence in their lives. As I said, an irrational wave of hatred towards religion is the real cause of such departure, heck all heretics were once Catholics too, and those were centuries before the Vatican II was even a thing... Again, let that sink in for a minute, my friend. Also, a fact the film doesn't even cares to mention is that the Novus Ordo is more similar to the actual masses of the early Fathers times, and while the TLM is beautiful and more complex indeed, it had other extra stuff that was added through the years, which is ironic if you truly think about it. Both masses are valid and both are based on tradition. None is better or more beneficial than the other.. though one is indeed more beautiful. I can grant the TLM that. But is up to us to make NO masses equally beautiful in union with the magisterium, not against. Speaking of beauty in mass, then they also said the "chants are lost"... but that's simply not true. What about singing them in your language? Are you saying there are not talented people any more than can compose equally solemn music or adapt the older ones for mass anymore using vernacular languages? I highly doubt that. The list goes on, my dear brother. But I will also recognize it had some good things, per example, I've to say there was a very interesting part about the funeral mass, where I fully agree with what one of the priests in the film said that we can't just go saying "people are in heaven now" once they die... That was harsh but true, hence a cool part, with profound theology behind. We can hope for that being the case [that they go to heaven], and we can pray for mercy. But is about being ready when the times comes. I totally agree. Anyways, I will try to watch the other two episodes, hopefully there is more stuff like that funeral reflection, and less of the fear-mongering and propagandistic takes, but for now I will definitively recommend taking episode 1 with a grain of salt for anyone interested in watching it.

Protestants should feel lost, a least a little. But that said maybe Vatican II was reacting in advance to an unavoidable social wind.

Get a missal, so you can fallow along, the mass is in Latin, the vernacular is used for the homily and the readings before. Have you been to a TLM ?, look at a mass from 1965 then one from 1975, you will see the loss of reverence that you seem to embrace.

@@RickW-HGWT i haven't been to Latin mass, the closest one is 40+ minutes away. nothing against it, I'd love to go one day! lots of the similar reverence at our Cathedral as well. it would have just been confusing as I just showed up one day, with no prior information, with people speaking Latin. I was raised Protestant so it was already very scary just to show up. All I'm saying is it's good to be allowed to use English as it will draw more people in.

​@@gdggbdbg see if your Latin Mass rite has parallel translation that you can follow. I don't speak Latin either, no one does really but the TLM is a different beast and when done properly, is a magnificent journey through Christ's sacrifice, utterly on a different level to the Sixties Mass, which by the way was watered down to include a lot of Thomas Cranmers changes, and be more similar to an Anglican/Protestant service. It was built by committees who didn't understand how a ritual flows. A well done TLM is a vehicle for conversion back to Christ. But, all is a journey.

@@patrickmelling8404 I'm worried, as I know many Latin masses are not in communion with Rome. I don't know how to figure that out.

I agree. And you don't have to be in TLM to kneel for communion or to be able to actually pray! To be fair, the only time I went to a TLM it was SO confusing, even though I had been going to (normal) mass for about a year already. The music was beautiful, yeah, but even with the paper/missal it was so difficult to understand and to pray because I had no idea what was going on most of the time and I didn't understand a single word from the chants lol When I came to myself it was already close to communion and I was like 'when did they do the readings or sing glory or everything else' hahah I guess you have to try really hard to understand it all and get into it. If only people put this much effort into praying and actually trying to enjoy the Novus Ordo, maybe we wouldn't be so divided. The new mass helped so many people get closer to God, by being more involved and being simple, clear.

I can talk for my local parish here in Mexico, brother, that the laity involved do their best to evangelize people, doing Bible study groups, organizing pilmigrages, and some of them are, indeed, missionaries, etc. And that's all possible thanks to Vatican II. In the end, I guess is up to us, on our own, to make an effort to procure such things happen, instead of just pointing fingers out and complain about what others "don't do", know what am I saying?

I agree. I'll even go as far as to consider that the tridentine mass structure and format shouldve been kept but translated to the vernacular. A Vernacular Tridentine Mass if you will. Why couldn't they have just done that?

@@gilbertotoledo1421 agreed

@@gilbertotoledo1421 Because the language of the church is Latin. Imagine the beauty of being able to go to a Catholic Church anywhere in the world and being able to understand it. You can't do that when it's in the vernacular.

So, which would be better, the traditional Latin Mass in the vernacular or the novus ordo in Latin?

@@sneed3529 That is exactly the point on why Latin must be brought back. I think if a pope were to begin bringing us back to the past. A good first step would be ad orientem, only altar boys, and greater use of Latin. It would help current priests get accustomed to using it and decrease the shock of the laity.

Smooth talk. Vc2 is a robber council. Ruined the faith. Its bad fruits are there to see.. Not one single good fruit. This young priest may please let us know how many arishes have been closed.. How many churches were closed or sold..

@@neilrangel2075 i read from a comment somewhere that the eucharistic miracles which happen nowadays only occur in NO masses. But how can it be that it would have stopped happening in Tridentine mass?

Because the priest and the traditional mass is not there for your personal entertainment, but for a sacrifice.

@@fidei829 yes but I’d it a private sacrifice or a communal one?

@@willsmom93 If a priest reads mass alone with no one else present, it is still a sacrifice, right?

@@fidei829 it is not the matter of a sacrifice but of what kind, solo or communal.

A Church without VII might look worse and smaller than we had today. The Western Church was struggling no later than 1900. Sometimes major surgery improves a really bad situation. It does not always make it perfect.

Depends on your perspective. Globally, Catholicism had grown in adherents dice V2, especially in Asia and Africa. The West is a crap show, likely due to its social values becoming more rapidly degenerate. *Source: Pew Research, World Christian Database

@Robin Nilselid. This is an interesting experiment. See the increasing of attendance in the Latin Mass and the increasing of attendance in the Novus Ordo Mass (in percentage). This is why they don't want to allow the Latin Mass. It makes visible their failure. If there is no point of comparison, they can always say that "it could have been worse".

Ban is the wrong choice of word as nothing has been banned. Secondly, just a cursory look at the comments on this video shows why a suppression of the TLM could be considered a good idea…

elaborate on the second sentence. We can’t infer what you think based on a “cursory look”

@@rl512 A lot of the comments imply that the TLM is just objectively better than the NO which is a very dangerous rabbit-hole to go down…

It was their generational project. The Boomer thing. The Sixties. All the old things were useless and they were so cool that they were going to trash 2000 years of tradition and do something new, something better with their half-baked ideas, that they thought they were genius because they were so smart and so superior to all these outdated saints. They said that Vatican II was a New Pentecost, even better than the Old Pentecost. It is hubris to compare oneself with the Apostles. Someone said that "now people are going to enter the Church in droves". They implemented the reform with an iron fist. No amount of pleading or pilgrimages managed to weaken their resolve. These believers that begged for the faith and liturgy of centuries have to know their place, damn it, we are the ones who rule and know. Let's fabricate a new liturgy completely new because we are so brilliant. The believers voted with their feet. Some decades later, seeing the amount of wreck and destruction they produced, they don't want to admit that they were mistaken. They are as proud as they always were. They imagine the flourishment of the Church in the middle of the decadence and they imagine new reforms to justify their life while the Church is in shambles. Vatican II was the project of their life and they will destroy the Church even more, before admitting their mistakes.

It said that Latin was to be preserved in the Liturgical rites and that vernacular could be used at times.

@@briandelaney9710 Yes, the current Mass is not a child of the Vatican II council but of Annibale Bugnini. See episode 2 of the Mass of the ages in RU-vid.

The Church (in N. America at least) was sadly losing that leverage power against businesses by the time of V2. Airlines see no point of catering ''Catholic meals'' as the demand for flights skyrocketed year after year anyway. Same goes to the NFL with its action grabbing the youth's attention compared to the ''dull'' Mass. It's a nutshell of the situations around the time of the council and the Church had 2 options: 1) stick to the guns and hope Catholic families breed enough to sustain the numbers (but half of them lapse anyway due to nonexistent catechesis), staying out of the world hoping they leave us enough room for survival, entering the 21st century as an orderly, faithful but MUCH smaller church (which apparently is what many trads want anyway) 2) take a risk, jump out of the shell and dialogue with the world, realize that people outside are not monsters but co-sinners desperate for love, showing them the true and ultimate Love of Jesus present in the Eucharist (certainly can do better in this part, but the vision is consistent). Give the laity much more rights & responsibilities. The risk is obvious a more diverse Church inevitably caught up in more confusion & chaos than most members were ever comfortable with, but 60 years is far from enough time for the council to produce ripe fruits, especially compared to the counter-reformation and Church history as a whole. We humans selfishly want to see our favorite things retained / implemented during our lifetime, not aware that time is irrelevant in God's eyes and our decades of effort on something is but a footnote to Him. I hope to see the amazing fruits of V2 when I get to heaven. Thanks for reading.

Christianity is dead in the west thats why nothing like that happens, and its a good thing

@@reintaler6355 I mean, at this point, few airlines even offer actual meals in the first place if it’s under like a 6 hour flight. And if it’s long enough it requires it, it’s probably catching a wide enough net of travelers that decent vegetarian and pescatarian options make sense to offer. Not specifically *intended* as lenten options for catholics, but catholics can certainly take advantage of them.

Well said, practise abstaining from meat on Fridays myself .

Whilst it is great that you do appreciate the Tridentine Mass, it is misleading to say that it is ‘attracting large numbers’ when only 4% of parishes offer it and it is a bit of a novelty and barely a talking point outside of the United States…

@@kieranisaacson Please note that Traditionis Custodes was released by the Holy See in order to restrict and make it more difficult for laity to attend the TLM amidst all of this. The only reason the Pope would try to restrict something “only 4% of parishes offer” that is “barely a talking point outside the US” is because the TLM is so deeply effective at undermining the heretical teachings of this world. If the TLM was something small and insignificant, the Pope himself would not be spending his Papacy restricting it. The TLM is present all throughout the world, not just the US. Some countries more than others. If you look up pictures, especially of some of the most famous and oldest European Catholic Churches, you will notice the architecture, particularly the Tabernacle and Altar, is built solely upon the TLM. It truly is the Mass of the Ages… Deo Gratias.

@@kieranisaacson every time I go to one, it is absolutely packed, and full of young people and young families

@@DoctorDewgong I think there are some pretty simple explanations for this rather than the TLM just being really popular. Generally the TLM is offered in fewer parishes, meaning that people have to go to the fewer parishes which offer the TLM. This means that those fewer parishes which offer the TLM appear to be more popular because the attendees are more concentrated rather than dispersed across many churches. For example, although much less of a talking here in the United Kingdom, a couple of weeks ago I attended a TLM at an 8am Mass on a Monday in central London. Now, in London there is only one church which regularly offers the TLM on a weekday and that is the London Oratory. Now this 8am Mass on a Monday filled a decent side-chapel, however if day ten or more churches offered a TLM on a Monday then this side-chapel would be a lot more empty - possibly completely empty! The statistics show us that the TLM is a fringe group in the larger Catholic Church and the packed churches offering a TLM are not always the best indicator!

@@kieranisaacson Monday 8am mass ok. Counterpoint: TLM masses are full so we should to more of them until they stop being full. Another counterpoint: every time there are surveys of TLM attendees vs NO attendees, the TLM goers believe and follow Church teachings to a WAY higher degree. Trying to shove them into "they're just a fringe group'" box is abhorrent

I lived in the United States for a year. Although I am fluent in English, I was never able to produce my responses of the Mass during the Mass. I knew it in my native language. If I had learned in Latin, no problem, even if I am in Malaysia for one month. This is why every religion has a holy language. Biblical Hebrew for the Jews, Classical Arabic for the Muslims, Sanskrit for the Hindus. All of them dead languages so the meaning of the words cannot change and lead you into confusion.

Right. It is a false dilemma.

This, exactly. Nuance is possible, even in all this. Latin hymns can be absolutely stunning, and can unite people from many backgrounds as they're often known the world over - but it's also important for people to be able to express themselves in their own language when it comes to their love and reverence for God.

@@doobat708 "The authority of the Catholic Church is rooted in Councils.". Right. All the Councils not Vatican II alone. Let people choose. 99% of churches in the world with the Novus Ordo and 1% with the Latin Mass. Deal?

Canadian Catholics give the sign of peace, too.

Let people choose. 1% of Latin Masses and 99% of Novus Ordo. Wanting a good liturgy is not shallow and you are not a better Catholic than the ones who care because you don't care. For me, shallow things are applauses in Church, mariachis in Church, all kind of shallow guitar songs that are a poor copy of the sixties folk music, shallow sermons that boil down to "be good and help others", while most Catholic don't know the basic of their faith because the priests never teach it. Shallow is to forbid the traditional mass as if it was the devil, while allowing all kind of abuses in the Novus Ordo masses without taking any action (clown masses, pagan masses and so on). Now they want to introduce indigenous rites into the Mass. Sorry, we are not shallow and insulting people is not an argument.

Hi. Usually at every Latin Mass, they hand out Missals that have Latin and English side by side. These have been the norm for centuries. The beauty is also seen by the numerous actions of the priest and altar servers.

Someone can correct me, but my understanding is that the body, by its nature, carries both species of flesh and blood. I.e., you can't consume flesh without consuming blood.

In the newcatheumenal way, this tradition was recovered, communion with both species, real bread and real wine, shared, thanks to vatican ll. One fruit, thousands families on mission around the world. Another fruit, rediscovery of the paschal mystery, celebrating the Easter Vigil the whole night. Christ has risen!!! Truly has risen!!! Lets spread the good News.

I have seen statistics showing that the decline started before Vatican II and therefore could not be attributed to it. Also, similar declines are happening in other Christian denominations. To me it seems the likely root is actually a change in the cultural philosophy from logical reasoning, first to one of scientism, and more recently, relativism. When relativism first became popular, it people applied it only to things outside of the scientific domain. Now, with pro-choice and transgender ideas facing serious challenges in the realm of logical philosophy, they promote relativism even in scientific matters, ie. "my body, my truth."

Correlation does not equal causation. Do you really think movements like the sexual revolution, postmodern feminism, the rise of atheism, the state of capitalism today, the gay rights movement, and more played no part in the decline of Catholicism in the Western world-that it was all just Vatican II? Moreover, it is not just Catholicism that is in decline in the Western world, but also Protestantism and various community groups, like lions clubs. On the contrary, a case can actually be made that Vatican II helped to save the church from collapsing in the midst of the various social movements in the latter half of the twentieth-century.

Great comment. I like the points you made and the skepticism you brought up. A smaller number of very knowledgeable and deeply devoted Catholics instead of a larger number of loosely practicing and poorly catechized group would yield a greater number of people making it to Heaven. In the end, making it to Heaven and bringing others into Heaven is all that matters. I believe the TLM is the foundation of our journey to Heaven....

@@kaitlynlightfoot9591 I think you’re partially right, but while the greater focus on evangelism, and the laity is important, the very healthy state of most traditional Catholic communities demonstrates that the liturgical reforms were probably much to overreaching in their implementation, catechesis was instill is the main problem not that the liturgy was or is too complicated or beautiful. If we are to defeat this neopaganism sweeping the west, we need not reinvent our selves that was never the answer, the answer was is and always will be Christ, his mother, and his church, one thing I can say now at least, is that there are very few people calling in good faith for the church to move with the world as they see the direction in which the world is moving, namely towards predation.

@@nightyew2160 My argument is not that Vatican II caused the decline of the church in the west as much as my argument is that it failed to arrest it, and is continuing to fail in that respect. Now if the reforms failed in most of the goals and an exchange for them, we gave up huge parts of our tradition and history. I can’t help but question if a reform of the reform is not drastically needed.

Yes, the fruit of the TLM modernly is very bad, including schism.

​@@atrifle8364 Is it the only argument? You more? When people fled the Church in masses, after the New Mass.

Yes, the wonderful fruits of Vatican II show us it was the right decision. By bringing back mass in the vernacular, it removed an artificial barrier between the congregation, and the sacrament. It bolstered the positions of lay ministers, reminding all of us that we have a role to play. It also helped to rehumanize the clergy. A lot of people sometimes forget that priests are everyday people too. They should be approachable. We can only imagine how much emptier the church would be today if she hadn't been willing self-reflective.

It generally helped the Eastern Catholic churches by bringing them back to their heritage. Prior to Vatican II, a lot of the Eastern Catholic churches had become highly latinized, including the Maronites, who’s liturgy had pretty much become somewhat identical to the Latin Mass. But thanks to the council, the Eastern Catholic churches returned to their liturgical customs and distanced themselves from attempting to replicate the Latin church.

It allows them to practice their rites freely [according to their own proper folklor traditions]. Vatican II was very generous in that regard, indeed! One of the good things that none of its detractors like to talk about. Sadly other people in the west have abused such freedom, for they took such permission to express their local folklor traditions as "we can do whatever we want", which is simply ridiculous and not true. That was never the intent of the Council, but to allow local, proper folklor expressions to be present in the mass.

Restricting latin mass is not going to increase membership.

@@rl512 Deo Gratias, we’ll said.

Did Vatican II improve or worsen the decline of the Church? Please, for each country, see the statistics of attendance before and after the New Mass was implemented. Numbers don't lie

There are some "blended" masses that will take elements from the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo. I went to one with my sister once, and it was a great service. It didn't just try to meet in the middle, but rather looked at what both liturgies did well, and synthesized them. In was in the vernacular, but used some more traditional prayers. The consecration happened ad orientem, but was clearly annunciated for the congregation to hear. There was a communion rail, but the priest still let me receive in the hand (it was towards the end of covid, and I felt safer wearing a mask in crowded areas)

That specific objection was not what got Luther excommunicated. Also the state was the one to decide the punishment of heretics, not the Church.

I have come to see it as a compliment when those who are in rebellion against Peter and his councils try to use it as insult.

Run hard. By their fruits, ye shall know them

That is a good question and I am Catholic. Vatican II called for Latin to be the preferred language, but that is not followed at Novus Ordo as we can see. The people who want Mass to be more beautiful and traditional usually have to find a parish that has a Latin Mass or a reverent Mass. the key thing missing at many Novus Ordo Masses is reverence, and unfortunately people think we cannot both be reverent and understandable. The point of the Mass is, it’s a Holy Sacrifice, the same original Sacrifice of Calvary. It is supposed to be about God - not how we feel.

It’s not about the Latin

Amen 🙏

Deo Gratias. The TLM is the ticket to Heaven...

Spot on. Ask the average Novus ordo attendee (myself included), where the Gloria, the Holy holy holy, the Lamb of God, or the enter under my roof responses come from. They will have no idea

Maybe you are just chasing a feeling. Maybe if you went back a reverent NO parish, it would now have as much meaning It a little silly to attend a Mass that you have ignore to read through.

@@DoctorDewgong - I am an NO attendee, one of unwashed masses. I know at least part of the answer, in part because I pay attention at my vernacular Mass.

@@atrifle8364 “Maybe” is not very confident or re-assuring. What I know is that the Præparatio Ad Pedem Altaris (Prayer at the foot of the Altar) and Confiteor (I confess) and many other sacred prayers were taken out and removed from the Mass entirely. If you attend the TLM many many times, (just as I assume you have at the NO) you do not have to ignore the Mass but participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. As I’m sure you have memorized the common prayers responses in the vernacular, the same can be done at the TLM. The TLM has nearly all of the prayers and scripture readings that the NO has, plus more. VII condensed and reduced the length of the Mass, took out involvement in a significant number of Saints, Angels, and Martyrs, and most importantly reduced the importance of our focus on God (Priest no longer faces the Tabernacle, Ad Orientem) and increased the importance of us lay sinners and our “us-ness.”

To be clear, I agree with the intent and goals of Vatican II. But I believe to my core that the goals it set are far from being met. I believe we still have a long way to go, and a need for a re-evaluation and course-correction of the entire Church before we will ever see the fruits of Vatican II.

It's because with the reforms of Vatican II they were trying to reimplement practices that are more ancient in the Church. Only problem is that they allowed too many options leading to some Liturgical abuses. The thing is though, in the Churches that took the reforms seriously, they blossomed. For example, the Eastern Catholic Churches were finally able to be able to do away with most of their Latinization and be true to their traditions

@Cameron O'Leary and that tradition is far more akin to our liturgy than the NO in the west, in all its ceremony and richness. That was never the problem. The problem was you guys insisted on a liturgical language that nobody spoke except the clergy a few who had intensely studied it. Some Orthodox parishes, particularly those entrenched in immigrant communities abd also function as preservers of the culture they came from are facing similar problems with younger generations not speaking the language, but a lot of them are waking up to this pretty quickly and switching to the vernacular and they're growing.

Because they (the judases) needed to usher in the novus ordo (that’s new world order in Latin) 😉

Africa, Asia, South America, southern United States.

In the whole world. In the USA alone the Catholic Church has grown 10% in the last few years while population overall has grown only 9%. But in other continents, like Africa and Asia, it has grown significantly way more than that. Only Europe is falling behind.

In Vietnam, Novus Ordo mass is watered down so much in the name of culture. If only TLM is popular in my country.

@@toussaintmaxwell8071 Hello friend, is true that one of the risks of allowing local folklor into the mass is that people lose focus... I agree with that, totally. But then again, is up to us to make it solemn as it should. We can do so in our own languages, adapting chants for them to be solemn, awe-inspiring and dignifying. But, as I said, is our job as laity to help with that. Vatican II expects us to be part of it, not just sit there and do nothing about it. It expects us to understand why are we even there, and hence make the proper effort to worship God.