It seems strange that the police will eject people off of public property in a heartbeat but won't eject squatters off of private property without a court order.
Squatter Rights have been one of those things that all manner of countries have been dealing since, probably, people started making cities. To wit, squatting can actually be healthy to cities, because it keeps land from being an asset only on paper (Which, if you don't see the issue, represent a sector that is effectively stagnant), and takes the homeless off the street. "Use it or lose it" doesn't and shouldn't apply to many sectors of society, but property? Well, seeing as the US was made under the reasoning that LAND OWNING NOBILITY was bad....
New game strategy: Trespass the good players from the other team right before the game. Only leave enough of the second string so they have enough to field a squad. Win!
Doing so would, likely, get your entire team and school penalized by the state...possibly all of their sports teams. I know it happened a few times with some sports where there weren't enough athletes for both a mens and womens team (Mainly wrestling) where the opposing team attempted different ways to keep from dealing with a combined team by trespassing parts of it. Schools learned that they wrecked the eligibility of a lot of their kids for years with it.
@@ObiwanNekody It was a long while back when I was in high school...it was one of the things that happened with it that I learned about because I was an aide to the athletics director for part of my school and he was griping about most sports having scheduling changes because for, at least, the rest of that year the school was removed from competitions which meant a lot of other things would be shuffled around. If I remember right, they also removed the coach from being able to coach and a few other hefty penalties on some of their competitors. By the regulations, girls could compete in the boys sports if there wasn't enough competitors for a distinct girls team for the sport but would need to compete in the try outs same as everyone else (I think that, technically, girls could even attempt it with some sports if they wanted to try it...but wrestling was one of the limited ones there due to other potential issues). I do remember that a few people were blasted because they'd forfeit rather than face the girl who wanted to wrestle there
When I was 19 or 20 I had a run-in with the manager of a movie theater in a mall. He almost backed into me in the parking lot and I honked my horn at him. In the mall, he confronted me and told me he'd like to take me "outback". I said ok and he backed down. I thought that was the end of it. Several weeks later I was in line going to a movie and he told everyone not to let me in. I said okay and walked away. He followed me to the other end of the mall telling me I had to leave the mall. I had enough and told him no. He did call the police. They told him he had a right to not allow me in the theater but not to eject me from the mall. I asked the officer if I could file a report that the manager had made threats to me by saying he was going to "kick my ass". The officer said he would meet me down at the station and we could fill out a report. The manager walked away obviously not happy. The guy was just a little bully. The point is he was in charge of the theater but not the mall so I was not trespassing. I think it made a difference that I had walked away and was calm talking with officers while he was a little belligerent. What would have happened if we had gone "outback" in the first confrontation? He would have been down rethinking his options.
If you both went “Out back” to engage in a fight, that is considered mutual combat and also disturbing the peace. Easily see the manager fired, but not sure what claim you would have had against him personally or as an employee as you had agreed to meet out back.
I’m sure some of that band equipment is heavy or cumbersome. That was a safety hazard. There was a lot of screaming but since students today have legitimate concerns over school sh**tings so I can understand why.
This reminds me of the reporter that was arrested in East Palestine OH. The reporter was there at the invitation of the Governer, but the Sheriff got his feelings hurt and arrested him even though OSHP, the state police, where right there and felt the situation was resolved. I bring this up because the "agent" in this case is the Governer and his team which includes the OSHP and they never directed the reporter to leave, it was a contempt of sheriff violation.
Wouldn't it have been ironic if the song being played was American Pie? My favorite line is "The players tried to take the field but the marching band refused to yield."
I like how everyone that covers this case. Leaves out the interview that the guy did that said he has submitted a list of songs that he would be playing after the game. Hence he had a contract
williampruitt8157, speaking as a person who deals with bands and other performers, sometimes as the representative of a performing group AND sometimes as a representative of a park district, etc; and frequently deals with actual contracts from both sides of the issue, IN NO WAY does a "list of songs" being submitted constitute a legal contract. That is just silly.
@@youtuubaI don't have my employees "sign a contract" every morning when I meet with them, but we do agree on what work they are going to be doing that day. The band director had an agreement to play the pre-agreed list of songs at the conclusion of the football game. And then comes in the police to make a mess of things.
Few things we still don't know about this situation: 1. Did the officer actually receive instruction from an authorized party to stop the performance? 2. If so, was the intent to stop the performance immediately or perhaps at the end of the song? 3. If all the above, how did the officer communicate the order in clear and reasonable manner? In any case, the tasing of the conductor appears to be excessive and more due to the officer's bruised ego than from an actual need.
John, we also do not know how long past the end of the game this was going on. It may have been the one song they were doing in the video, or it may have been several. But I guess we are supposed to assume all Cops are tyrants and operate on their own authority.
@@beepbop6697 The police in the other video (without going back to watch it all over again) ordered the mantle leave. The big brouhaha was whether the officer could ask him to leave. From the video only, no one knows the answer. When trying to direct the guy out, he appears to have shoved an officer. Depending on the laws in that state, that is likely a crime. The trespass warning at that point seems like a moot point. Just because the band Director was not arrested for trespassing doesn’t seem to matter. The main issue that I saw discussed in the comments was whether the officer was within his legal authority to tell the band Director to leave. It depends on the laws in that state and whether the officers were directed by an agent for the school district.
many marching bands, have long traditions and songs that they play at the end of sporting events. I have watching Iowa State University sporting events for 43 years. Many of my family have been members of the marching band and told me about the traditions at the end of the sporting event, the band owns the place and plays at least three songs. We all enjoy the songs and no one under any circumstance messes with the Iowa State University, marching band. the school that tased their band Director just shot school spirit through the heart with this episode.
My husband, a former band director, says that the tradition in the South is a "Battle of the Bands" in which bands alternate playing songs, and when one cannot play anymore, the other band wins (bragging rights, no prize). Conceivably, if the visiting band is kicked off the field before the challenge is over, the home band wins. Was this action someone on the home team making sure the visiting band lost? All in good fun, right?
Wayne-Hauber, I am sure it is a "tradition" for all sorts of things to happen in a certain way, but don't confuse that with the LAW. A situation can arise where the authority over a certain venue needs the performers to stop and/or exit, and then that "tradition" is legally meaningless. Adults, such as the band director, should understand this and comply. That is, of course, if under the circumstances, the director understands what it happening.
The issue being only a couple of minutes is not even all of the point. He did, after a tiny short bit, stop and they were leaving. The real issue is the use of force. Also it can be argued that he complied within an acceptable period of time and any cop who is doing their job and attempting to DEescalate would have accepted the cessation and motions to exit as a win and moved on. Besides....there are a lot of ugly cops... wouldn't anyone want them out of their face? Come on, people....
I've seen several videos and stories on this incident. From what I understand there is a local ordinance or rule that the field must be vacated at the end of the game. Full stop. This band and team are from a different area and has a tradition of playing x numbers of music after a game. So they were following their tradition not knowing of the local rule or ordinance. Personally I think the cops needlessly escalated the situation and has made a bigger headache for this school district that was unwarranted.
I had a dispute with my neighbor over our shared property line. I had a certified survey done. Then he hired a guy to remove my fence and put a driveway on the land in question. I told the worker I would have him arrested for trespassing. The worker told me he was authorized by the property owner. The cops told me it's a civil matter because the worker had obliterated my survey markers.
That's going to be a big lawsuit. Sorry. But obliterating the markers, then continued after told the land is in dispute, puts the contractor in the crosshairs too. Get that survey done again, and remember to go for 3x damages plus restoration of the land to previous condition. You may not have a neighbor soon, and an extra house.
I don't know about where you live, but moving any survey markers is a crime, in my state. It can land (heh) you in jail for 6 months plus a $1,000 fine
@@eclectichoosier5474 survey markers are different from the pins, the pins are what is a crime to remove the survey markers are temporary. But the removal of the markers essentially caused damage since the police wouldn't do anything with them removed and another survey would need to be done. Cops are lazy sometimes.
I definitely don't disagree with you. But the evidence released at the last time I looked at this case didn't show that he had been told to leave by anyone except the police, and he had the proper permission to be there with no indication otherwise from the owner or their agent. He said the first person to ask him was the officers, that is the issue. I agree it was impossible to tell everything from the video but I always assume not guilty until there is evidence. I don't assume someone is guilty based on assumptions/theory for what might have happened.
He was not charged with trespassing. He was charged with "disorderly conduct, harassment and resisting arrest". Resisting arrest is a secondary charge and the first two charges are clearly blatant lies by the police (which they, themselves, are guilty of).
@@beepbop6697 You have NO IDEA what was said, or announced on the public address system or said by the cops before they turned on their cameras. Could have had the same situation the last three games with this guy. Always, always best to comply with orders by the police.
There is a difference between outright refusing an order versus asking where/why the order came about. The correct response by the conductor, IMO, is stall by asking. He doesn't have long left to play, so if the inquiry process to verify that the order came from someone of authority exceed the remaining length of the song, all is good. But outright refusal without even bothering to put forth the motion means he have waived the possibility of dispute and is at mercy of whether the order was backed by authority despite the fact that he can't possibly know one way or another.
@@glasshalffull2930 the band director was doing his JOB. Let us know how it goes when the police show up at your place of work and start demanding how you should do your job. 🤣
I was hunting private property and accidentally trespassed on neighbor s property. For 2 years!!! lol I put my hunting stand in a tree 20 feet over the line ,but I had no idea. One day the property owner walked through and stopped to talk to me. When he told me where the property line was I was surprised . I offered to move ,, on the spot. But he said he didnt care. It all worked out,,but I did move over next chance I got.
I think most people, me included are more hung up on the fact that this was a prearranged event with a prearrange schedule and sanctioned by a state body. While the local school district and their agent may have been nominally in charge of the site, there was an actual contract in place with a date and time of the game and the allowed activities (a marching band, halftime show, set list for the band, whatever). Now we don't know all the details, did they run over the agreed schedule? Did the "home team" coach want them kicked out after they got beat? Was the person who told got the cops involved an authorized agent even? Did anyone ask the cops to get involved or did the cops just want to go home early so they decided to shut it down.
I had something similiar happen with my neighbors tearing out a gate on my legaly surveyed property. I took them to court and the county lawyer, judge and Sheriff refused to charge their "buddies" for the Crime of trespassing and vandalism. So, Neighborhood Wars on A & E April 11 2023 aired my story.
@@Cotronixco I don’t know what a P is. But I had a legal land survey performed and they do not. They’re not entitled to that land it belongs to me. It is interesting that you responded to my post on someone else’s channel when I do not know you and you appear to know what my situation is. It’s highly alarming.
@@AlternativeHomesteading I already stated that I cannot determine whether or not they had already acquired the property through AP. Don't assume I stated anything I have not stated. AP is Adverse Possession. In most states, if your neighbor used any part of your land for 15 years or more, whether they knew it or not and whether you knew it or not, and you (and your predecessor, if you have not owned it for 15 years) did not give them permission to continue during that time, the parcel in question is now theirs, if they wish to retain it. This law varies from state to state, and has nothing to do with a survey. A survey cannot stop AP in any way. Study the statutes for your state for AP and post here what it says if you wish to continue the discussion.
A neighbor specifically invited me to stop by to talk about a problem, all very cordial. When I got there, at first he mistook me for someone else and said (shouted) "you're the guy that's been causing all this trouble! Get the eff off my property!" At this point I said "uh, ok" and started walking back down the driveway to leave. He continued, furious, "You stand right there, I'm calling the cops to have you arrested for trespassing, now get the eff off my property! Where are you going, stop right there, you can't leave, I'm calling the police to have you arrested for trespassing, get the eff off my property! Where are you going" etc etc. I turned around - but continued walking backwards towards the street - and asked if he wanted me to stop and wait for the police, or if he wanted me to get the eff off his property (using his words), because I couldn't do both. He said to stop and wait. Fine. So I stood there, then his son came out and asked what the hell was going on; he cleared up the confusion, "no, Dad, this is DaddyBean, he lives right there in that house down the street!" The smoke cleared, and his dad waved off the police before they arrived, and all was well. I wasn't worried about getting charged - I had been specifically invited on to the property, and the second he told me to leave, I turned and headed for the street - but it sure got exciting for a minute!
@@DJ-tn3ov so it would seem. My wife has one too - people ask her all the time if they know her from (store) or does she still work at (store), and has even had employees in (store) come up to her and start discussing their schedules and such... but she doesn't work there, and never has. We've never spotted her doppelganger around town, nor mine.
He definitely wasn't stable, and admitted it once he cooled down and realized he was yelling at the wrong guy. He has since moved away... and I can't say that I miss him.
And you yhink the cops would want to hear side? Default answer from the cops, you can tell the judge. While thinking, Yeah I have the most arrests this month, big bonus.
The elephant in the room is the excessive force used by the officers. No way in hell that level of force passes the Graham factor test. They took what should’ve been an issue of internal politics (band director against administrator) and have now made it a civil rights case which I think the band director would absolutely win.
All the arguments in law that you presented dealt with privately owned property specifically. Things are a bit different with public property (assuming the school is taxpayer funded), and clearly there is not enough information regarding this story. Police often feel their authority is absolute, and whatever they say becomes law and is therefore lawful. You generally can't trespass someone from public property unless they are doing something unlawful first, like causing a disturbance or damage to public property ect. Again, not enough information to make a solid determination, but if I had to guess I'd say it's yet another case of police misuse and abuse of the authority they think they have. More and more it seems that police are no longer law enforcement, but feelings enforcement, and usually it's their own feelings they enforce.
Sooooo, I could just hang out in the public high school gym as long as I want??? Basically, the school district can’t let people wander around the property unsupervised. Theft and liability issues. Or, maybe there are some noise ordinances here. As far as the cops, I learned it’s always best to follow their instructions. Unfortunately, this guy learned it the hard way.
@@glasshalffull2930don’t be silly, but there are policies that are set by school boards that govern how the school is to allow access and they must be reasonable. Nothing that happened here seems to be reasonable, so someone likely overstepped their authority to withdraw the invitation. Further the police have to be authorized as an agent before they take on the role of trespassing someone, and if that happened in the first half of a 3 min. Song and still had the time to walk over I would be somewhat surprised.
@@glasshalffull2930There is always one person who can't comprehend what someone writes if it doesn't fall in line with what they already believe. You spout nonsense and pretend that's what was being said. Let me use your logic. "It's always best to follow their instructions", so you should walk off a cliff if police instruct you to do so? You see how ridiculous that sounds?
@@michaelbradley7529 Now you’re being an idiot with the “walk off a cliff”example. The officers weren’t telling the guy to do anything that could harm him (except his ego) and your example is just ludicrous. I simply pointed out that there are many public places that are restricted as far as public access and so one cannot go there any time they want and it’s a very good idea to follow police orders. Pro/con: stop song short and get embarrassed in front of your students vs. arrested/tased/cuffed/charged/spend night in jail/hire an attorney/have a criminal record/denied jobs/ possibly fired as band director, etc, etc. Choose wisely 🤔🤔🤔
@@dwaynepenner2788 So, it’s NOT reasonable to clear the stadium after a night football game? If you notice, there aren’t any football players on the field, no coaches, no referees and according to one poster, the game had been over for 18 minutes. Band should have played the school anthem and maybe another song and been packing their instruments. After ten minutes or so, At the end of my son’s night games, security announces, “Time to go.”
The only thing in the incident that I can come up with for trespassing is operating hours. If the school was insisting that they were staying after the allowed posted business hours it might give the school a leg to stand on and fulfill that law breaking requirement. It wouldn't make what happened any more right or not ridiculous, but that's all I can come up with for a justification.
@@fs127 it was arbitrary of the staff to stop like that because 21:00 cut off but this happened just after 20:30 if you watch video the stands were still full. I think staff got in a hurry and didn't care
Can you go over how trespassing and actual public property (city hall, public library, DMV, or any other such public building) collide. I see a lot of auditor videos on this very subject.
What those "auditor" videos never show is them losing in court because they have absolutely no understanding of the law. Their ONLY purpose is to create something that will get watches on RU-vid.
The Michigan law states in part , Michigan 750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another..' exactly what does this (lands of ANOTHER) mean? Who owns the city, state, or federal lands? It's pretty clear that I can control the lands that I own, but who owns the city, state, or federal lands?
@kenyattaclay7666 Some do file, but you are correct that we never hear the outcome of the suit. They quote law and precedent, but, for example: audit the auditor use phrases like " likely to" and other similar phrases that leave room for ambiguities. I want to do an audit, but as I am still unclear on a few things, I haven't done it yet.
@ronaldnielson8591 except I am not in Michigan. I know stayed laws vary from state to state. To answer your question, all public property is owned by "We The people"
@@chrissauter7501 Please don’t run around and cause trouble by doing this audit crap. If you want to get a police scanner and show up and film (without interfering), that’s fine. You could even post like an actual member of media.
From available information, the first direction to leave was from the police. There is no information that would indicate that the band was asked to leave by the Administrator...
If an administrator told the police, "They need to leave". The proper thing would be for the police to tell the director , "you have been asked to leave". That would be notice and then legal issues would follow after if need be. Without more facts, I believe this all boils down to miscommunication and a hurt ego on the part of the officer for not being heard.
usually the first directive to leave is from the police esp when someone is conducting a concert or acting/ moving erratically. why would admin have to ask him to leave? the police is the agent of the admin. would you approach a person going berzerk in a walmart knocking stuff around? nope. you still call the police all the same.
There was a case in minor league hockey in which the team from Macon, GA was playing the team from Oklahoma, OK in Oklahoma. The coach from Macon was thrown out of the game but stuck around to argue with the referee. The officials had the coach from Macon arrested. To make it worse, the coach from Macon happened to be black which brought up issues of race. If I remember correctly, OKC dropped the charges.
The Michigan law states in part , Michigan 750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another..' exactly what does this mean? Who owns the city, state, or federal lands? It's pretty clean that I can control the lands that I own, but who owns the city, state, or federal lands?
@@ronaldnielson8591The people of the state. However the government manages it. So is a representative, in paper, of the people. That's how they get to sell land that is not their to sell.
It's not clear that the police had any authority from the school district administrator to ask people to leave. The band director had authority to be present on school grounds while performing employment-related activities, like directing the band. This is nothing like a drunken guest outstaying an invitation at a private home.
That was the argument made over and over in the other video. So let’s play what if. What if the superintendent of the school district, who is the boss of the band Director has authority over all school district properties, told the police to remove the band Director? That is exactly what Lehto gave an example of. A person might have been lawfully at a location to begin with but what if the person in charge of the property then removed that authority?
If a school administrator (and most likely the band director's superior) is acting as an agent of the school district, yes, the police do have authority by his/her/their request.
@@fredmdbud The police are not agents of the school or representatives of the school administration. Nor do they answer to the school. We still need to know why they wanted to shut down the band. There must still be a valid reason for them to evacuate the stadium.
Another (of many) of the big questions with the Alabama trespassing is that no one seems to know who (if anyone) told the police to clear the field. FYI: Mims was also one of the bus drivers that evening.
I was working in a municipal parks department and had the final say on how long the users of the facilities were allowed to stay in the facility. Everyone who was on the premises were renters or leasing the facility and invited guests. My solution to folks who wanted to hang around for hours after the event was to shut off the lights. Give them a couple of warning blinks with the lights and then announce they had 10, 15 or 20 minutes before the lights were out for the night. Never had any problems with bands or school events. Recreational beer league baseball players- well that is another thing!
I love the shy away from the “process server” part…. I was a process server in Georgia for years and loved it…. I had people try to have me arrested for “trespassing” all the time…. I had police officers who had NO CLUE what the law said pertaining to civil process…. It was so bad that I carried copies of the state statute….. I preferred serving businesses or their registered agent, and garnishments. They were always easier and cut and dry!!!
Disagree with Steve. Officers were telling the band directory to leave -- they are NOT the representatives of the school. Now if the cops said: "Mrs XXX, school administrator, has asked you to leave and now you are being trespassed and will be arrested if you don't immediately comply". None of that happened. Besides: the band director was never charged with trespassing, so the entire point of this video is moot.
you can disagree but you are wrong. police are agents of the owner/admin/employee/representative. if a police man see you parking in a closed business parkinglot, like you are casing the place, they can very much trespass you off the property and 10 /10 owners will back up the police. after being tazed he complyed with the command. they needed him to stop playing once he stopped there was no need for the arrest. the police officer doesnt have to arrest you after being tazed.
@@mattx9260 he was arrested and charged with "disorderly conduct, harassment and resisting arrest" -- *he was not charged with trespassing* (look at the title of this video).
I remember in highschool band, when we were doing a parade, we were reminded that under no circumstances were we to allow anyone to "break rank." We weren't told to punch anyone, but we also weren't told NOT to punch anyone.😂
Not really. If it's government property, then government agents have the right to tell you to leave if you are doing anything that is illegal or against the rules of the property.
Actually no they do not the government has to meet certain legal criteria to trespass you unlike private property owners who can just ask you to leave and trespassing you if you refuse.
@@stischer47 We don't have to follow government building rules. Only laws. You can't be made to leave a government building if you haven't broken a law.
I wish you would talk about the topic that is hit so much on RU-vid, regarding trespassing on public property and the use of time manner in place restrictions, and when people are kicked out for filming in public areas when they’re not violating time, place or manner.
@UpnorthHere In general, you cannot be trespassed from Public properties without having first committed a crime. On private property, you can be trespassed just because the person may not like your choice of shoes or how you wear your hair or for no reason at all.
@mattx9260 ALL property is real. Public Property, as defined: Public assets are properties managed by a government entity for the collective benefit and use of the general populace. These assets encompass parks, thoroughfares, sidewalks, libraries, educational institutions, and recreational areas. Ownership of public assets resides with the collective public, guaranteeing accessibility and utilization by all community members. Certainly, there are individuals who hold the belief that nothing possesses tangible existence or reality.
@@ZXLMaster nope, try going to anyone of these area after they are closed and see what happens. bet it leads to you in handcuffs and being charged with breaking and entering, but how is that possible if its public property? public property isnt real, these are all private business.
I had been at an acerage visiting the wife. Next week I returned, husband yelled at me to leave and that I was trespassing (no signs). I left, but it was scary to turn my back.
A parent can be told not to come to a school because of that parents behavioral issues. The school can call the police and kick them out due to safety concerns.
That's an interesting distinction. Here in NYC there is a public grade school with a large yard, normally open to the public. However, they have a sign that says between certain hours, the yard is closed to the public, reserved for the school kids during school days. Makes sense, it wouldn't be practical for the kids to be competing with any kids walking off the street and taking space away from the students. Also, the Parks Dept here in NYC sometimes closes off certain sections of a park for maintenance or construction.
Yes it's public property, but the administration has the right to dictate who can be on the property. If a kid is suspended for fighting, he can be trespassed if he decides to defy the suspension and attend classes anyway. A convicted pedophile can definitely be barred not only from the school property, but can also by court order be barred from coming within a certain distance of the school, and that often includes incidental instances like riding a bus that passes by the school on the way to see his parole officer.
What happens if you are say walking an abandoned railroad track, and someone tells you to get off their property, so you turn around in the direction of where your car is parked and someone on the way to your car forbids you from entering their property such that you are trapped inbetween the two places?
An abandoned railroad track may still be owned by a railroad company, and so may still be the company's property; if the entire railroad company is defunct, maybe the property has reverted to the city or the state. Unless a business or home owner has specifically bought a section of abandoned track for himself, I'm thinking he wouldn't have the right to order someone off that section of track. But whatever the case is, it seems to me that you can't be forbidden from trying to get back to your own vehicle; wouldn't someone doing that be guilty of depriving you of your legal property, or something like that?
@@ericemmons3040 This is exactly what I was thinking. Very rarely do railroads give up their land even with abandoned tracks. That land is far too valuable.
@@Fireguy97 The abandoned rail rights-of-way are very complex. What if they were only built on an easement that then automatically dissolves into the underlying (or adjacent) landowners rights after the rails are abandoned? Different if taken by eminent domain, or by private deed.
The way I was taught about trespassing is you are not trespassing if you have explicit permission or it's reasonable to assume you have permission. Of course, after someone has asked you to leave you can't assume you have permission, so you have to leave. I'm an Aussie by the way.
Maintenance people, NOT administration, wanted to go home and stop the band from finishing a song that had been ALREADY agreed to by school. There were still people in the stands, and it's traditional to "play off" the leaving people. When MAINTENANCE decided to turn off all lights, the remaining people couldn't see..and the cop was clearly heard saying that the band leader "disrepected him", and so he had to be arrested..the other charges were added later, because it's not lawful to arrest someone because you got your feelings/ego hurt..smdh
One thing is for sure here - there definitely seems to be a breakdown of communications here among the parties involved, possibly - the owner/manager of the field (school admin), band director, and the police. There is also some speculation here too. Perhaps the band director could not hear what the officer was saying, especially if the body cam audio was not intelligible. He could say at trial if it goes that far, that he did not hear an order from the police. Due to the nature of the loud music, no one could probably hear each other, adding to the misunderstanding. Maybe the band director thought the officer was merely telling him to "hurry up" rather than "stop playing immediately, OR ELSE!" The police used excessive force here in any case, and did not exercise any patience. Why won't the police taser a squatter in someone's house if they won't leave, and instead tell the rightful owner "it's a civil matter"? (as in one of your recent squatter videos). BTW stores open to the public (you can freely walk in and out from the street or in a mall) in most states and municipalities are PUBLIC ACCOMODATIONS whether they are owned and operated by a PUBLIC corporation like Walmart or PRIVATE OWNERSHIP like Mary and Joes Candy Shop. If you are shopping during normal business hours you can't be trespassing unless you are doing something illegal or creating some nuisance to the customers or the business. If you are just normally shopping and minding your business, and they ask you to leave I would ask why? Let them call the cops and leave before they arrive.
@@glasshalffull2930 Yeah because children learning to speak up and not be weak sheep is just to horrible an act . Thank God it was in front of so many children seeds of liberty and freedom planted.
@@darleneclarke4001 Defiance of school admins or athletic directors who are trying to close down on time is what that band director demonstrated to his students. Just do whatever you feel like!
@@darleneclarke4001 Hopefully, just maybe a few of these kids learned what NOT to do when an officer gives you an order. There are way too many kids, just like these, that end up arrested, injured or worse by doing stupid crap like this. “I’m going to stand up for my rights and not cooperate with police!” Brilliant decision. I hope they like getting roughed up, slammed to the ground, cuffed, teeth knocked out, spend the night in jail, hire an attorney, miss work for the trial, get convicted, sentenced, $1000s in fines, lose your job, criminal record follows you for the rest of your frick’n life, etc, etc, etc. Wow, way to show those cops!!!!
@@glasshalffull2930Uh no,they are not submitters to freedoms Luke you are. Black students already have a disdain for cops as it is. Stay in your lane.
Heya Steve. Not sure if you read these, but there's one point I'm confused on. For the purpose of trespassing, can a police officer be the person who first delivers notice that a property owner wishes you to leave his property? To word it another way: can a police officer act as the agent of a private entity to deliver notice or does an owner/employee/etc have to request you leave first?
That's called soliciting a trespass. Cops working in their regular capacity can't do that. If these cops at the Birmingham football game were hired as private security by the school (and allowed to wear their official cop uniforms) then they would have had the authority to trespass individuals and it wouldn't be considering "soliciting a trespass".
@@bosshog8844Soliciting a trespass is a bit different than what CirJohn described. What he described would be legal. It all comes down to who is leading the discussion with the police. Let's take a very exaggerated example to show the difference: Woman is sitting on her porch. Teenagers are playing stickball on her side yard. Cop is just walking down the sidewalk. Scenario A, closer to CirJohn's question, the woman calls the cop over, and says "Can you tell those kids to leave my yard?" The cop goes over and tells the kid "the property owner wants you to leave the property". That is 100% legal, even though it was the cop and not the property owner that first requested the kids to leave. Scenario B, actual soliciting a trespass. The cop sees the teenagers and thinks they're hooligans (as opposed to just the woman's neighborhood kids playing). The cop walks up to the owner and asks if she wants the kids gone. Since the cop is basically trying to "get the kids in trouble" by creating the situation where their presence on the property is illegal, where that may never have been brought up by anyone (including the property owner) otherwise, that is soliciting a trespass.
It may depend upon the exact words in the state law. Some statutes are broader than others and only required that the trespasser "has been informed" of the obligation to leave (by someone in authority). Others may list the specific ways to inform them: signage, verbal from owner, written from owner, etc.
In the English legal system and the Australian from which it derives, trespass is a civil matter only, . I was constantly being told at school that "Trespassers will be Prosecuted" signs were fallacious, as there is no crime to prosecute. I was also told that there is no trespass until you've been asked to leave, signage notwithstanding, especially invalid signage. As regards the band director, speaking as a conductor I certainly don't assert that he has a legal right not to be interrupted, but in practice I would probably have done the same thing. It is one of the most complex real-time activities you can engage in, like driving 40 cars at once. You don't have any mental space available to deal with interruptions of any nature. You would just brush it off and say 'later', or 'get off my bandstand'.
I think where cops typically overplay their hand is strip malls. Just because a shop tenant ejects you from their store doesn't mean that tenant has authority to eject you from the common areas of the rest of the property or can keep you from patronizing other tenants' shops. Cops too often assume it does. However, one must be careful where the owner of the whole property (both shop landlord and owner of its common areas) has a standing written agreement with local PD for the police to act as their agents and the request of the owner or its tenants. Research carefully and never make assumptions.
This was a recurring issue during COVID as some stores had policies requiring masks and some people did not want to wear a mask. When asked to leave, they would say "you can't force me to leave" because they wanted things at the store but did not want to wear a mask.
You apparently never read the fine print - there were exceptions for people with certain breathing disorders. Anybody could claim the exception without proof, since nobody is required to share medical information with a Walmart, Lowe's, Rite Aid worker.
@@ZekeRivers You did not read the even smaller fine print.. They did not have to let you IN the store - they just had to accommodate you.. like getting the items you wanted. You may not be required to share medical information, but that does not mean I have to take your word for it lol.. I can (as a private business) can ask for that proof and if not provided then give you the alternative accommodation I am providing. I loved when people claimed HIPPA protections when that has zero to do with someone asking you about your medical condition that you are asking for accommodation LMAO. HIPPA is for Healthcare providers, Health plans, Healthcare clearinghouses, Business associates (in healthcare). The shopkeeper and associates are not subject to HIPPA (unless they are in the Pharmacy and it is related to their work) This is why they implemented curb side pickup.
@@ZekeRivers That fine print was in the government rules (what they are well know for) but not in many of the store rules. As Steve mentioned, stores don't have to justify why they are asking you to leave, they just have to ask you to leave.
@@connecticutaggie Exactl. When the police arrive to arrest a trespasser they don't even need to ask WHY. "They told you to leave. Are you leaving? If not, you're under arrest." Simple. You have a beef with the property owners/rules/discrimination, write them a letter. It's a civil matter, not one for the police to decide then and there.
Theoretically, as Devil's advocate, the defense could be that the band director was contracted to play until a certain time, and the time according to his watch did not meet the requirements of the contract. The agent has no authority to overrule a written contract from the owner. At that point, the order is no longer lawful from the officer and the officer would be liable for false arrest and use of excessive force. Now, I don't know it's the case here and I haven't even watched that particular video as the topic peaked little interest for me. I watch about 70% of Steve's videos.
In that situation, the police would probably still have the right to intervene based on the agent’s request. The band director would have a case against the venue for breach of contract, not against the police who were acting on the agent’s request.
I have been told by several lawyers in Alabama that you can not be trespassed from public land or property. I'm not a lawyer but I know a few of them and LEO.
If it's public land, then it's not your land. It's owned by "another", usually a government agency FUNDED by the public, and they can have you arrested for trespassing with or without any reason. That's the law nearly everywhere.
what if someone tells someone to leave, but someone else tells the person they can stay if they want? Say for example at an apartment the renter tells someone to leave, but the agent of the apartment is there, (maybe the agent is friends with the person being asked to leave by the renter) and tells them they can stay if they want?
I'm going to go with the band director Did have legal authority to stay there despite an owner or agent requesting them to leave. The band agreed to come and play at the venue under certain conditions, one of those conditions was the number of songs that they would be able to play the band had a contract enabling them to be on those premises and the police would not have the authority to ask them to leave due to that contract!
You know, you made a great argument, when I was in school, back in the time before, the ban had to buy tickets for the stadium for that area, and I'm quite sure there was an agreement to the songs that would be played. so, I may be wrong, but they were leasing those seats for a certain number of songs. if this is true then would they not then be the representative of the owners for that time?
Possibly if he was hired as security. Our local school does that, hires the police as security. Hence they are agents of the school and can enforce school policies and local laws when needed.
@@cheeto4493 the band director is more an agent of the school because he is employed by the district and was there doing his job. What he (band director school employee) says trumps whatever a random security guard (even if a cop working overtime) thinks.
I work for a hardware store that has age restrictions for cutting blades and spray paint. A person working the self checkout had to put in the age on the computer. The customer freaked out because he didn't want employees near him and that's why he used self checkout. He threatened another customer and the manager told him take the spray paint and leave. The customer didn't want to leave because he had the right to stay. So the cops were called and he was explained what was going to happen if he didn't leave. He left.
Steve, the last place I worked was open to the public (Private Post Boxes), and the place was LEASED.... We still had the right to evict people and have them trespassed. This was in Oregon.
Thanks for covering the music conductor it was a travesty of human rights. There is a spirit to the band and they were jamming so it doesn't matter to me WHO or WHAT made that cop act like a gestapo and nothing less, it was WRONG in every way.
Oh, so if the band director was in the “spirit” for another two hours, that would be cool too??? The band director was an idiot and was a poor, poor example to the students.
Remember; Steve is giving us the layman's version of trespassing law. There are literally DOZENS of caveats and exemptions as well as special situations involving: curtilage, fenced land, signage, adjoining properties etc. That is why lawyers get paid the big bucks; they have to know the minutia of the law and how to apply it.
That's what you call a negative incentive. It is a skill to be apt enough to provide a positive incentive to convince the beligerent individual to leave.
I would assume as a band Director he was a member of the staff of the school district and therefore an agent of the property and has authority to be on the property. At most it would be a staffing issue not trespassing.
@@freethebirds3578 His band was invited by the home team's band. As an agent of the owner, the home team's director has the authority to grant him permission to be on the property. The police do not have the authority to revoke that permission. Nobody does, except the person who gave them permission - the home team's band director.
It happens in retail all of the time. If a customer doesn't want to leave we can trespass him or her by calling the cops. The person is not allowed on the grounds hence trespassing.
I’m in Missouri, we paint the top of the wooden posts purple in the fence line to communicate no trespassing. Apparently it is indisputable, if you crossed it, you are trespassing. Hunters take it seriously anyway.
@@wmdkitty No, it's not illegal. "No trespassing stripes" are currently authorized under state law in at least 17 states. Many other states have similar legislation pending.
Every high school band director that I have known have a unique ability to project authority and bring order from chaos. They probably have to be to do that job.
First, not sure if the cop was a legit agent of the school. Second, and more importantly, I spent 35 years total in law enforcement. There is NO WAY I would have handled the situation the way that officer did. Incredibly poor judgement.
Just because property is government owned and open to the public doesn’t mean you can’t be trespassed from it. Try walking into a government jail, court, or school and you quickly find that out. The school may be open to the public for certain events and during certain times, but the school and government can revoke that at any time. The law works the exact same as it does for private property. The only difference between public vs private property is the justification for being on the property in the first place.
There was an agreement in place for a band competition after the game was over. The home band played their set then the visitors were supposed to play their set which was interrupted by the cops in the video. Therefore the trespass was questionable and the band director tried to explain that to the cops who wouldn't listen.
In my jurisdiction you would be charged for party to the crime DUI if you allow via. Encourage[ment] an incapacitated person to operate ANY motorised vehicle on ANY public roadway. INTRUDERS are NOT trespassing. Insurance does NOT cover injuries acquired by any body or thing that is at the time of injury, engaged in or being used in any unlawful act. When the coroner arrives... You will appreciate the fine print on your homeowners insurance policy. Trespassers finance lawyers. Intruders... Don't need lawyers anymore. Steve... Yer a Dinosaur!😁
Trespass statutes are only ambiguous to cops. There's a difference between public and private property. Whatever the reason for the trespass only matters on public property. There needs to be a good reason to trespass someone from public spaces, generally Constitutional rights may come into play there so in most cases you have to be breaking; another law ie; disturbing peace, disorderly conduct, etc. On private property there doesnt have to be a reason at all. The trespass warning should come from someone generally charged with the care of the property in either case. But, trespass only occurs AFTER a warning to leave was articulated.
I heard on one of the videos i saw from this incident, one of the officiers said "if you dont stop we will vet the school involved". Which keads me to believe the officers were acting on their own accord, not directed by the school.
Public propery Steve. You left out the fact they cannot tresspass you from PUBLIC PRIPERTY without you breaking the law first. You even started to skirt into it. Then bounced away. Can a mayor tresspass me fromxa public street? They're an agent of the city? Can a teacher tresspass me from the Public School Track and stop me from running? Can a DMV clerk tresspass me?
You absolutely can be trespassed from public property. You can be ejected from a Library, Courthouse, DMV, parks, etc. Edited to add: The exception being if you're being a tart and saying that by trespassing you're violating the law, therefore EVERY time you're trespassed you're obviously breaking the law by trespassing.
Go to your city hall 15 minutes before the posted closing time. Stand in the lobby until someone asks you to leave. Refuse because you are not breaking a law. It's a public building after all.
@@jessvagnar4957 Hello! In certain circumstances you can of course be trespassed, but that is exception. A public servant does not get to decide (outside of a law being passed and broken) that you don’t get to be somewhere in public or publicly accessible space. If a law is passed it would still come second to a constitutional right such as the first amendment and gathering news for a story. The smooth brains in the comments will point out obvious items like a public office being closed, and duhh you can’t be in the place after closing time. I really wish Steve had focused on the public property and not private property discussion.
Petty choice to escalate. Choosing to attack the band director after the song was over. As he was walking out. That was clearly a dishonorable action worthy of atleast being removed. Hateful instigator who created a problem where there was none. 😠
Not difficult. When you are on somebody else's property, are asked to leave and refuse. Or when somebody is in a public building with limited forum access and is told to leave by the manager, owner or representative of that building.
Simple Simon universal logic: You are trespassing the moment the owner of the property, or his representative tells you to leave or vacate the property and you are not a resident of the property. That's the law in most places and most states. Other Trespassing violation is if their is signage near or around the property that says "No trespassing" and the owner hasn't given permission for you to be there. Now any other gets into the weeds of various state, county and National laws but that's the basics. It doesn't change.
I once was charged with criminal trespass when a roommate called the cops on me when I went into his room. For context, I did not get along with this roommate, he was rarely around, and the last time he had gone to the apartment while I was not there, he unplugged the internet cable which traveled through his room, as his room was the only room that had the hookup. So, despite the fact he told me not to go into his room, since he had disconnected the internet, and I could only enable it again by plugging the cable into the connector in his room, I had to pick the lock to his door and plug the cable back in. The roommate called the cops when he got back and saw the cable plugged in. I was able to get the charges dropped, as the whole case was ridiculous though
