When Did Dutch Start Turning Against Arthur? | Red Dead Redemption 2 

The saddest part is I feel like, through the whole story, Arthur and Hosea were the only two who DID have Dutch’s back. They wanted what was best for him and the gang the whole time

When Dutch didn't even try to go recue Arthur after Colm took him. That was the first sign.

Hosea dying was ultimately the beginning of the dying process of the gang. Without Hosea, Micah was able to snake his way into Dutch's psyche to get him to do dumb stuff to raise his bounty. Ultimately Micah's plan was to take Dutch to the highest bounty possible then turn Dutch in. That is why at the end of RDR2 the pinkertons showed up after Dutch shot and John killed Micah. The plan I think was Micah was going to meet with Dutch and then the pinkertons show up and thats when Dutch is taken in, then Micah runs off with the blackwater and the bounty for Dutch money.

He never turned against Arthur. That would imply he was on Arthur's side to begin with. We even see in the very beginning of the game, if Arthur or anyone else slightly questions Dutch, Dutch guilts them or uses some other manipulation tactic to get them to stop. The only one who could keep him in check was Hosea, but otherwise, Dutch looked out for Dutch and he loved to be the king of his little band of misfits.

I honestly think Dutch was always crazy. Bcz in the beginning of the game Javier claimed Dutch killed a girl in a bad way and based on what Arthur said, it was Dutch and Micah's plan to do so. So ever since hearing that I had just the slightest bit of foreshadowing that Dutch was always somewhat not all there

I think you're pretty spot on about the Lakay "chess move" scene and Arthur rescuing John, being the times we see them butting heads, but I honestly think the root is ultimately Hosea's death. Arthur+Dutch+Hosea were the original gang. Collectively they were the leaders of the gang, each holding a role. Dutch the charismatic "planner" and personality figurehead of the gang, Arthur as the muscle, protector and heavy hitter, and Hosea as the anchor, voice of reason and the one who took the "grand plans" and actually made them reasonable and workable. Though I hate to say it, because Hosea is so likable, he also kinda kept Arthur "in his place." If you replay the game, keeping an eye out for it, there are many many times when Hosea "teasingly" tears Arthur down and reminds him that Arthur is the muscle and not brains of the operation. We also often see Hosea question Dutch and pulling Dutch down to earth with reason and concerns. We also often see Hosea encouraging Arthur not to worry or think about things too much and just trust that Dutch will get them through. Ultimately, Hosea was very much a mediator and glue that help Arthur and Dutch together. After Hosea dies both of them are very shaken up and full of doubts about the future. They also both try to find ways to fill the void Hosea's death left behind. Arthur feels the need to fill Hosea's shoes in holding Dutch accountable and bringing him down to earth, concerning the real threats and needs of the gang. The whole "what about the women" line ect. Dutch starts looking for ways to keep people trusting him, in their place, while struggling to enact his "grand plans" into something grounded and actually effective. Neither Dutch nor Arthur can fill the void Hosea has left. They both stumble and fail and they see one another stumbling and failing, which erodes their trust and confidence in one another even more. So if I were to point to one root moment where the bond between Arthur and Dutch really starts to break, I'd say it was Hosea's death, even though Arthur and Dutch don't really interact with one another during that event.

There is a very interesting dialog between Sadie and John on the Epilog, in which they both theorize that the Dutch they knew (Peaceful, generous and empathic) never existed. It was just a disguise to hide his truly devious personality. It's actually a very believable theory and I don't see people talking about it much. To be honest, just like John and Sadie, I believe that Dutch was always a manipulative Sociopath. He just slowly revealed his true colors as the years went by.

Ppl talked about Dutch changing when he hit his head robbing the trolly station but there is something he says as soon as you start chapter 3 after you chase down those criminals that escaped and after you Dutch and Hosea go fishing....as soon as the boat docks Dutch sits back and says "I think I .....I mean we are gonna be ok" it's a little thing but it shows that Dutch always only ever cared about Dutch

This is the moment Dutch turned into HeisenLinde

For me it started before the gang killed Bronte. On their way to the swamp to meet Thomas and Jules he says to Arthur that Micah is the only one left with any loyalty

Theres some potential of Kieran: the last member of the gang, one of the least influenced by dutch and more than likely had some kinda affect on arthur. Him saying about Dutch and Colm being alike is something we think about afterwards. I feel like dutch found out and probably decided not to look for him, even tho he could have spilled to the odriscolls about the new camp location.

Another clue is that he didn't even bat an eye that Arthur is sick or dying.

When Dutch randomly says he thinks Arthur will be the one to betray him because he seems the type, he sounded very bitter in hindsight and back in Chapter 3 at that. It's one of those things you don't pay attention to, except when you look back at it.

What’s funny is, it wasn’t a problem when Micah was broken out, but it was a problem when John was broken out. Dutch was definitely changing over time

I think when Micah said told Dutch that they were possibly going to have a "truce" with the O'Driscoll's and wanted Arthur to be the sniper and lookout on the mountain. They pretty much left Arthur Morgan to die with the O'Driscoll's, but he escaped and survived. When Arthur asked, "You guys were going to SAVE ME weren't you"? My gut feeling was like...oh my god! They were REALLY going to leave him to die and might have even KNOWN that it was a set up and was perfectly content on letting it happen anyway! Another time is when they got the boat to kill the Italian boss and Dutch told Arthur to go get the guy being attacked by the Super Croc. Dutch didn't exactly move that quick on the trigger to save Arthur! Dutch would rather have Arthur die "in battle" rather than potentially have a political fallout if Arthur leaves due to not going along with Dutch and his plans.

During my 2nd playthrough of the game where I put over 200 hours slowly navigating Arthurs story and enjoying every moment. I heavily critiqued the unrealistic and cartoonish decline of Dutch, towards the end of the game. His rapid advancement from emphatic leader to crazed narcissist always felt unbelievable to me. It took until my third playthrough to realise how perfectly Rockstar did it. We see everything through the eyes of Arthur, we see the community and family, Dutch has grown. We hear the stories of his greatness. We are led to believe he changes in the game. When in truth he just becomes worse at hiding his true intentions. He is always planning tactics, reading about rebellion and toting values on others. He views the gang as pawns even if he doesn't realise it. Only seeing their love when it represents in unfaltering loyalty. As his family fails, he finds refuge in Micah who butters him up and brings him vultures who want nothing more than to benefit from his downfall. He mocks Arthur because he doesnt see him as a son but as a traitor. He only values unquestionable loyalty. Seeing his gang as an army. Even Eagle Flies is used as a soldier in a war the natives cant win. Dutch isnt high class but he so desperately wants to be viewed as an equal among them. He kills Angelo when he mocks Dutch. He kills Cornwall when he is cornered and outsmarted too. Wanting nothing more than to bite back and seem strong. Only in the end, when Arthur lays dying, is Dutch able to see his foolishness and snap out of his delusion. To see that the loyalty they showed him was more than he deserved. It wasn't the tram crash or the deaths or any of that. Dutch just saw the world one way. In the end, only when he is exposed as a fool. Does he begin to see the real enemy, eventually resulting in him killing Micah. Although he still remains broken and bitter. Leading to the desperate and callous RDR1 Dutch.

I started replaying the game for the third time recently, mainly for the secrets and missions I never completed but once I got to chapter 6, I experienced something I never have before. I was out looking for a certain bridge trying to find the serial killer and Bill rides up from out of nowhere saying something like "Dutch has been real worried, you've been gone a while and wants you back. You coming?". I don't know whether this happens in other chapters or not, this was the first time I saw it, but the fact that Dutch sent Bill out to look for Arthur really drives home how paranoid he gets towards the end of the main game. In the other chapters, you could spend forever doing whatever but once chapter 6 hit, once the fear of betrayal set in and once the fallout began, Dutch sends out Bill to look for Arthur. It's almost hypocritical, Dutch goes on about faith yet he doesn't have faith in Arthur and the fact he gets Bill to do it, or possibly even another gang member, says a lot about how he perceives himself. Why didn't Dutch go looking for Arthur if he was so concerned? No. Instead, he has the members do it instead like tools or accessories which is something you see throughout the ENTIRE game. Rdr2 is an insanely detailed game from the main plot, to small mysteries found at the very edge of the map that people are still trying to resolve and the fact I can write a whole damn paragraph on ONE encounter really proves how good this game is. I think Dutch needed therapy. A lot of it.

I have seen in my plays many places where Dutch started turning on Arthur. I feel it started after they got back from Guarma and he had the time to process the death of Hosea and Lenny. I think it set deep when he found a new face to manipulate in Eagle Flies and the tribe's young men. The nail in the coffin so to speak was when he insisted that John be removed from the gang and then again at Cornwall's business as he walked away from Arthur. That's my theory anyway.

Dutch didn't turn against Arthur, he turned against himself as most of the principles that Arthur knows was taught by Dutch.

Well I remember Dutch saying to Arthur he will betray him eventually. Which was a really akward moment for me. I had a forshadowing since then. And in the end we all knew he eventually does betray at least John in RDR1.

i noticed immediately after robbing the train station, in the mission where you go to lakay when your riding there with dutch he talks about hosea losing his spine and eventually says micah is the only one he can rely on anymore.

Dutch turned on Arthur when he gave him his back just to let him get killed. Other previous events are examples of Dutch's behaviour with people like John, who let him in jail as a replaceable element of his gang and because of his deep hate for John knowing how he constantly disagrees with him. Or Dutch questioning Arthur's loyalty due to the moments Arthur doesn't agree with him

8:30 id also like to add another reason of why he killed Bronte like that is because of his position. Dutch is a narcissist and they are known for being very insecure. Dutch knew that Brontë was someone who is superior and is above Dutch in many ways due to his wealth, status, and place in society. Because of Brontë being more superior, Dutch knew he couldn’t reason with him and get into his head like he did to colm odriscol who is someone that’s inferior to Dutch, so the only way he felt he could deal with him is to murder him in cold blood out of rage, jealousy, and fear. He didthe same thing to Cornwall, another man who’s superior and has high status and Dutch instead of reasoning with him he murdered him

The signs were there since chapter 1 he is always asking Arthur if he is doubting him or going to question him like hosea. Which is odd as Arthur defends Dutch in these chapter like a loyal son. It got worse by chapter 4 and guarma it wasn't until things completely gone to shit that. Dutch started to antagonize Arthur as Arthur finally became his own man and that upset Dutch cause if Arthur was healthy the whole gang outside of micah, bill and javier would have left with him

The spot he started to turn is just before the pinkertons offered everyone their freedom if arthur gave up dutch and dutch asked "why didn't you take the offer?". He was already considering betraying arthur then and there cause it appears had he got that same offer he would have given up arthur.

There is that mission with the trolley that crashes after the failed coach station robbery. Dutch mentions in that mission he took a blow to the head and is "seeing three of everything." And from that point forward things with dutch get far worse far quicker. I fully believe that blow to the gead really negatively affected Dutch.

You should do a breakdown of Arthur's journal.

I’ve been having this theory, where back in Saint Denis, after the bank robbery, Dutch hits his head badly, and I think that, along with Hosea’s passing, really messed him up, and throughout the game from that point you can see Dutch rubbing his head where it was hit, even in cutscenes. You can mess with this theory however you’d like, this is just something I’ve took notice in my second play through.

In a quite prophetic way you also seem to get attacked by wolves more while free roaming between during chapters 5 and 6 because of the location of camp. Kind of like a subtle warning of things to come.

i always felt he was a little off but Hosea was the calming level headed voice in Dutch’s life. Thats why he was Dutch’s right hand man. and when Dutch followed his ideas and plans things went smoothly. Whereas things went wrong because he had Micha in his ear a lot. Such as the Trolly robbery and the bank job, Hosea was against it but it was Micha pushing for the job. When Arthur got sick his thoughts started to change. Arthur was more so connected to Hosea because he spent so much time taking from Hosea. Arthur was a combination of Dutch and Hosea. So with Hosea death and Arthur being sick and having a change of heart, Micha was all he had a guy that shouldn’t be in the gang at all

The Guarma mission in that cave (when Arthur says to Dutch “but you said you knew Spanish”) is the first time Arthur properly stood up to Dutch, and that is where they start to fall out I think. I don’t recall any instance where Arthur has called Dutch out in that way. I mean specifically call him out on something he’s done, not just saying “you sure about this”. Since Dutch had never experienced Arthur doing this to him, in a way it kind of distanced him from Arthur. And after that if you pay attention to the dialogue in the rest of that long ah Guarma mission, Dutch starts to question far more often Arthur’s loyalty and faith. So that’s the point where they start to fall out. Now, for the explanation of when Dutch started going crazy is way different. I think he started going crazy before the events of RDR2. He was not always crazy like people say. He turned crazy after the gang picked up Micah and failed the Blackwater ferry job. In the prologue/colter, they mention him offing an innocent woman, for seemingly no reason. That’s the main point where he abandoned his morals and started going crazy. But in the game of RDR2 he is always crazy. It’s just that he hides it good from chapter 1-4, and loses it in Guarma.

This game is still a king

Dutch: the biggest, most well written antagonist in the game. Also Dutch: Doesn’t get killed by the protagonist he has betrayed. Side note: I know Dutch is not meant to be viewed as a classic villain that wrongs/betrays the protagonist because in the end although John defeats him, John doesn’t pull the trigger on him. Dutch may not have been completely malicious at the time, but he left his two sons to their deaths and pretty much helped Micah seal Arthur’s fate. If John knew that, I doubt Dutch would’ve walked away in the end of RDR2. I wonder if John knows how Micah caused Arthur’s death to begin with. Some say that he knew but I’m not sure.

I think the turning point for Arthur was the killing of the old woman in Guarma. Him boldly stating to Dutch “.. You gonna strangle me too?” Hit so hard for me as the player, seeing him stand against dutch for the first time.

Hell, Dutch casually accused my Arthur of betrayal as early as Act 2 in camp. It seemed really out of place at the time, so I thought maybe it was a glitch.

There were signs as early as Horseshoe Overlook when Dutch says cruel stuff to Arthur. An example is the comment about Arthur being the most likely to betray him as he's reading beside his tent. The most obvious sign was getting abandoned after the meet up with Colm.

yes there was sings in the very beginning since chapter one and if you didn’t catch them it just shows you how well rockstar written a manipulator like dutch

Dutch had a hard time adjusting to they way the world was moving , Arthur knew they were heading no where fast. Arthur was still loyal to Dutch he just had a different type of integrity. And Micah being in Dutch’s ear didn’t do him any justice .

I think Hosea’s death was the moment Dutch realised the things went out of hand. After that, came John’s arrest, the moment Dutch didn’t care anymore that’s why he didn’t even try to save him. However it is, it’s like John once said to Sadie. Sadie was there to watch Dutch change, John and Arthur were there to watch Dutch showing his true face.

I always like this momment with Dutch tone changed John ? insist ?:D

Micah - "You'll figure it out boss...you always do". That was the quote that fully showed me that Arthur had been replaced. That was Arthurs quote to Dutch in camp throughout the entire game.

You could see the signs at the very start of the game when he speaks to Charles: “Get indoors, son! I- *we* need you strong.”

I think one detail you overlooked was Molly's death. Prior to that point, Dutch had conflicting opinions on Arthur, and the seeds of distrust were planted, but had Arthur not tried to convince Dutch not to kill Molly and let her go after she ratted on the gang, all faith Dutch had in Arthur's loyalty was damaged. If Arthur was willing to defend someone who had ratted on the gang, how was Dutch supposed to trust Arthur to not do the same? Though I believe Dutch's distrust in Arthur would've progressed with or without Arthur's objection to killing Molly, I believe it's the main reason Dutch goes from half-trusting to silently antagonizing him so quickly.

Well… It’s important to remember that Dutch already chose Micah over Hosea and Arthur before the game even started. He chose Micah’s Blackwater heist over the thing that Arthur and Hosea planned. It’s pretty clear that Micah’s brutality rubbed off on him because when he kills that girl on the ferry, they are all surprised because he’s never done something like that before. The job obviously went bad and then he neglects Micah for a bit and he goes back to listening to Hosea and Arthur. He knows he’s losing them so they go on that fishing trip and puts them in charge of finding leads in Lemoyne. Then Hosea eventually dies, now Dutch chooses to rely more on Micah because 1. Arthur is getting weaker due to the TB. 2. Arthur is openly questioning Dutch and taking matters into his own hands. 3. Micah is still strong and Dutch believes he’s still loyal. I think the better question would be: At what point did Dutch start stringing the gang along with the promise of Tahiti so he could use them for him own selfish reasons? Because you could argue it was at ANY point in the story.

Dutch's actor did such a wonderful job. He could turn on that superficial charm and when Dutch gets mad, it can get legitimately terrifying.

Crazy part is Dutch always talking about loyalty yet he did nothing when aurthur gets captured by colm & almost killed when the whole thing was clearly a setup . Personally think dutch was gonna let john rot in prison if it wasnt for authur breaking him out . By the end Dutch is only loyal to himself while Arthur was trying to save as many people as he could before he died . Dutch just used arthur until he was no long useful which came pretty quickly once he got tb. I wonder how different things turn out if hosea never gets killed seemed like the last thing that kept Dutch in check

The "crack" were already there even when they were still at the horseshoe overlook At one random camp conversation, dutch already called arthur as traitor sarcastically. I think it's already there and it gets bigger and bigger as the stories goes

More people should pay better attention to the campfire conversations and read Arthur's journal. There's so much info there about what the gang and its leadership use to be. Dutch was always pretty selfish and only gave kindnesses when it ultimately benefited him (short term or long). The trolly mission was when Dutch got a concussion. He never got what little treatment might of helped, but Hosea's death was the final nail in his rational coffin. There are many details in Dutch's character that point to him being a narcissist and anyone questioning him (outside of Hosea) was off limits in his mind. I'm certain Dutch has always been out for himself, but he couldn't be by himself, that's why he always needed followers. He's a cult leader really, but in some skewed way he did love the gang. Which is why I believe he went back to find Micah, get the blackwater money, and kill Micah to take his gang (like Micah took his, so to speak). Just so happened that John showed up before Spring could break, leading Dutch into a choice rather familiar. Finally he chose to save John, and walk away from the money, ultimately getting some small measure of -- redemption.

I read somewhere that the trolley crash possibly gave Dutch a concussion or minor brain damage which in turn caused his mental state to deteriorate. There's another head injury Dutch suffers when you rash the boat full of horses into the shore. That one he seems to be dizzy. This could be another turning point or more minor brain injury.

I have a theory that Dutch was trying to get rid of Arthur the entire game. He wasn't going to save Arthur from Colm O'Driscoll. He might have even conspired with Micah to get rid of Arthur during that mission. Micah definitely conspired with Colm, Dutch too maybe. He ordered Arthur to go down in the swamp knowing full well that a giant alligator was there, Arthur's life was in grave danger there and Dutch didn't care. All for petty revenge. In chapter 6 it is clear that Dutch really wants Arthur gone. His plan is very convoluted but there is a plan to get money. Yet unlike other missions Arthur is in even more danger than ever before. He is tasked to steal dynamite but Micah doesn't even join them. It is truly a fools errand, a suicide mission. To steal dynamite and escape on a slow wagon. If not for Arthurs extraordinary skill and maybe some luck he would have been blown to pieces. That is what Micah was hoping for and probably Dutch too. Dutch doesn't directly try to kill Arthur but more indirectly. Like how Tywin tries to get rid of Tyrion in game of thrones. So why does Dutch do this? Partially I think that Dutch is a sociopath without empathy, he only cares about himself. You can see this with his women too like Molly, he only desires women but he doesn't care about them. But the main reason he turned on Arthur is because of blackwater. Not that Arthur did anything wrong but because Dutch lost alot of confidence from that failure. Arthur is number 2 in the gang after all, a leader, well respected and more intelligent than what many give him credit for. In his own twisted mind he sees Arthur as a threat. You might have forgotten this because this was early in the game but in the Valentine camp he tells many times that he thinks that he will betray him if you talk to him. He is surprised that Arthur didn't take Miltons deal for freedom and he seems suspicious in general. All while Dutch taking Arthur for granted. He seems to forget that without Arthur they would have died many times before considering that Arthur saves their ass in every shootout with impossible odds. They wouldn't have survived past Valentine. And basically all the money that the gang saved up throughout the game came from jobs that Dutch wasn't part of but Arthur either led or helped with. Dutch's plans was terrible throughout the entire game.

Chapter 1: Dutch seems optimistic and proud of everyone's resolve, despite the challenges they face fleeing Blackwater. He seems unhinged in going after the O'Driscolls when the safer move was indeed to lay low and travel further. Mistake number 1. Chapter 2: Dutch spends most of his time reading in his tent looking for false inspiration to persuade everyone to keep their spirits in following him, and his anxiety builds. He pretends to be noble and care but few are starting to see it's all been an act this whole time since he is so deeply affected and grounded, not taking action when people need him most. Mistake number 2 Chapter 3: Dutch seems more level headed, but gets greedy when Micah poses the opportunity of the plan to rob both of the families. It's odd how he seemingly doesn't care too much that Arthur almost dies at the hands of the O'Droscolls, or care about the rift he's creating in his relationship with Molly. Mistakes 3 and 4. Chapter 4: When Hosea dies, it traumatically effects them both. But not before he happens to decide to go after Bronte not long after suffering a major head injury during the trolly mission. I have no doubt the betrayal, head injury, and Micah fanning the flames all contributed to Dutch getting more unhinged after his bloodlust revenge mission to kill Bronte and go after the bank. Going after Bronte was THE last mistake that triggered a domino effect of events that followed. Chapter 5: Dutch seems more bloodthirsty in his battle on the shore of Guarma, and more convinced (probably through Micah) that John may be a rat. He's not making mistakes anymore, he's fully descended into madness. When we arrive in Lakay we can see how gone he is. Chapter 6: Dutch sees his perfect victim, and strikes at exploiting the Native American youth to manipulate. An absolute tragedy, considering one of his core creeds that he seemed to firmly believe in was equality of race, and standing up for the Native American people. Here we see has truly come full circle and as John put it "We have become, what we set out to hate" in a campfire event. When Arthur left to rescue John, it was truly OVER. Dutch turned against Arthur the MOMENT he defied him in rescuing John--as it was defiance of his control. Dutch LOOSING control was his biggest fear. So in essence, he lost his mind over loosing his power over his followers. He may not of even been mad at Arthur--but Arthur disobeying him represents anarchy amongst his most trusted and oldest gun, his 'son' his senior right hand man. He knew he lost it--it was only in the end as Arthur dies when he realized his failures

I’m 2 seconds in and I can already think of multiple incidents where you can see them distancing from each other

There is a dialogue in Chapter 2 where Dutch says Arthur at a random time that he feels like Arthur would betray him at the end. It's the most odd thinf I heard ifrom Dutch at chapter 2.

I feel like Jack becomes a bounty hunter after the game ends. In my mind, he got Sadie to teach him more about shooting and hunting a person down, so he was able to find edgar.

I could of peep he never really cared cause when Arthur was sick he never asked him was ok or tell him he need to get well but instead he shows he aware his not doing well but he never told him hope u get better or take a break it was more like he just wanted to suck up all the use out of him till he couldn’t no more cause he knew Arthur was a rider even when he felt like ditch was no good

This is the exact moment where Dutch becomes Heisenberg

One of the first things Dutch said to me in Horseshoe Overlook was something like "You're going to betray me aren't you, Arthur? You are the type" as I walked by carrying a sack to Pearson's wagon. Always struck me as an odd thing to say right out of the gate after escaping the mountains when things were looking up. He also outright accuses Arthur of doubting him in Colter as they prepared to ride out to Colm's camp. Dutch was paranoid of Arthur from the very beginning. I think a better question to ask is when did Arthur start turning against Dutch. If I could pinpoint that moment, I'd say it was in the oil factory attack when Dutch left Arthur to die instead of helping him. Another relevant observation is the fact that the two most outspoken critics of Dutch, Hosea & Arthur, were not included in the Blackwater score. So, it seems Dutch was turning against both of them prior to the first scene we ever saw.

Arthur looks so ridiculous with maxed out beard lol

Go back to this scene in chapter 1. 2:50--In Chapter 1, Arthur asks Dutch "what happened on that boat?" To which Dutch responds with "we missed you." Which tells me he blamed Arthur for the failed ferry heist, and he was at odds with Arthur since then! I peeped this on the first day i played the game, 1 day after it was released.

I think the biggest twist that shows Dutch had kinda lost it with Arthur was just being willing to let him die.

I think when Dutch and whether fell out was when John killed Micah the way John says thank you to Dutch pissed of Dutch and made him say to Arthur “I HAD A GODDAMN PLAN”

All I know is he started turning on Arthur before Blackwater. You can tell when the big three go fishing that they truly loved each other, but at some point, Dutch was on tilt, pursuing failing plan after failing plan, only trying to save himself. The point of no return happened before the game even started.

I think they started falling out during and after blackwater. Arthur stated his disliking of Dutch killing that girl and back then Micah had already kind of replaced Arthur where he overided Arthurs opinion with Hosea in turn for a ferry job which led to the massacre. Hosea dying also played a role, with his advisor and reasoning gone he let his emotional side get to him siding with his supporter Micah and straying away from his doubter Arthur.

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In a way, Dutch's decline is a good example of Vass' insanity quote since everytime something good happens to the van der lin gang it abruptly stops by O'Driscolls, Pinkertons, and the law, and which happens 4 times, and each time it ends the same. Until the final chapter where a different outcome but yet it feels at best bittersweet and tragic to the perspective of the gang.

I don’t wanna be “that guy” but in regards to the thumbnail, the correct grammar is “WERE there signs?” 😂 great video tho!

Chapter 2 at Horseshoe overlook Dutch says to Arthur *"I expect you'll betray me in the end!"* Which is funny because it was Dutch who betrayed Arthur

Dutch once said to Arthur that he will step into the HELL itself if Arthur is guarding him😢

In mid chapter three before the one Micah mission I was going to talk to Dutch and he said something along the lines of “Arthur, I get a feeling that you’d betray me” and that’s when I truly knew his thoughts had shifted

14:47--My favorite line from John in RDR1 is "you always have a plan, Dutch."

Having played the original back in 2010 and knowing full well what Dutch would go on to do, my impression playing through RDR2 was that Dutch was quite clearly a textbook example of a psychopath from the very beginning. I'm not a psychologist or anything, but for fun I ran what we know of Dutch, Micah and Arthur against the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. I came up with a score of 37/40 for Dutch, 36/40 for Micah and 27/40 for Arthur. A score of 30/40 or higher is the threshold for diagnosis as a psychopath in the US.

The way Hosea acts towards Mrs. Braithewaite is definitely just to put on appearances for her. She is much more likely to talk if he is aggro toward her along with the others. After the mission Hosea drops his aggressiveness while Dutch keeps his all the way to the end even if he keeps it subtle until the end.

As early as chapter 2 I've had Dutch display signs of paranoia towards Arthur in camp. Just passing dialogue. Something to the effect of "Are you trying to unnerve me friend!? I dont think you want me any more unnerved than I already am!"

Right after Dutch hits his head during the trolley mission, there's a mission that has Arthur and Dutch riding together away from camp. I forget what they said exactly but I sensed some tension between them both. I think that was the first real bit of tension I noticed.

Personally I think it was always there. Dutch has been beating himself up for the Blackwater Heist. He questions Arthur’s loyalty several times in Colter. When I played my second play through, my wife saw through Dutch immediately. “So he didn’t like any idea that isn’t his own, huh?” Made me think.

Dutch didnt change at all. You see the speech from the prologue sitting in an abandoned cart or whatever in chapter 2. In chapter three, theres a very subtle scene i believe its after you get back from fushing with dutch and hosea where Dutch says "I think I, i mean we, will do good here." Something along those lines. He was always just looking out for himself. Even when milton came to arrest dutch, he acted like he was going to go but the entire gang brandished their weapons. He knew that entire gang was willing to die for him. They were human shields. The only person in the entire gang who changed at all was arthur. After he got sick he became scared of what would happen to him after he died. He beat up a sick dude, pretty much killed him, then came back and threatened to kill his son. After he got sick, everything changed. I would even go as far as to say arthur pre sickness was the worst person in the gang (yes worse than even micah.) He was the only one willing to actually work with straus, i doubt anyone else in the gang wouldve been shooting up stawberry after breaking micah out of jail. Sure, he would comment negatively about it, but deep down he still enjoyed it. Hosea was literally the only person that kept Dutch level headed (if you can even say that.)

He got brain damage from the trolly wreck. He got a severe concussion and told Lenny he needs to “sleep it off.” Which you ARE NOT supposed to do.

Dutch hit his head in the trolly job. While everything was falling apart he had a concussion and lost all his wits.

Looking back, as soon as they left the mountain, Dutch was tripping. Rob a train just once state over from Blackwater and no disguises? Different clothes at least?

i view hosea like john glanton and dutch like judge holden. when hosea was alive he sort of kept dutch on a leash but when hosea died, it was like a beast was let loose; with no one to keep dutch in check he lost himself and spiraled into depravity

It was really Arthur who started turning on Dutch. Dutch was an outlaw through and through, and Arthur started wondering what it was all for and disobeying orders at every turn. He was right to do so, but when Dutch rode off with the money instead of going to get Marston's wife, it was exactly what you'd expect he'd do. Arthur was the one who was too grounded to stay on his get rich or die trying path.

Think there were signs from the opening chapter that Dutch was always a piece of sh*t. His monologue about Davie dying was utter cringe. Then his constant gas lighting of Arthur & Hosea when they were putting community safety over greed/money. This was always his way of controlling the group.

Nah it was way earlier than that. For me it was when the explosive didn't go off during the train robbery. But his descent into madness started in Blackwater when he shot that girl

Like all petty tyrants, Dutch grew paranoid, surrounded himself with yes men, and distanced himself from his real friends, blaming them for his own failures.

One thing I realized is that yes, micah was the rat, but even at the end, he still wanted to turn dutch in. If you play the ending, where he is frustrated, that dutch won't follow him down the mountain. Knowing that the Pinkertons were coming up, he wanted dutch to come with him so he could finally turn him into Ross and capture him. In fact, I believe Micah was Ross original plan. Instead of john going after all the gang members, he wanted micah too. Ross gave micah the blackwater money and said to get dutch and report back. We'll he did, and it so happens that john and sadie and Charles were both coming after him after he made contact with dutch. My theory is that his plan was to make dutch feel comfortable and wait a few days for the Pinkertons to come and arrest them. After micah died, Ross already had location and realized that dutch was gone and micah was killed, so he knew that Marston was behind it. Sadie and Charles were only in the gang for a short time prior to this, so they probably didn't know who they were.

This is the moment Dutch became Heisenberg.

I love how Early in chapter 2 when walking by Dutch, Dutch will sometimes remark how he knows Arthur is going to betray him.

I got my girl to play the game and she asked me if Dutch was the bad guy as soon as she heard him speak😂 (I told her no)

After the incident with the trolley and Dutch hits his head. Thats when Dutch becomes more unstable. But it could be argued that the events before Blackwater were the catalyst for Dutch's decline.

Since chapter 1. While going to attack O'driscoll riding through snow, Dutch revealed his insecurity when asking Arthur if Arthur had lost trust in him. Chapter 2 Random telling Arthur that one day Arthur would betray him and When Arthur informed him about Pinkerton agents Dutch asked why didn't Arthur handed him to the Pinkerton Through out the story Dutch showed demanded trust and loyalty from time to time. All these are signs of insecurity and guilt.. Dutch was already a different man that the gang knew when he met Micah who convince him to attack the ferry in Black Water. Dutch was using the gang as stepping stone since then.

Chapter 2. During my play through (I had already beat the game at the time) and I was walking by Dutch at camp when he said: “You know Arthur, I have a feeling you’ll betray me one day.”

I think the actual turning point in Dutch's perception of Arthur is when he saves John. This is the first time Arthur has gone behind his back, and that is when Dutch realizes that Arthur doesn't have faith in him. The reason I think this is because Dutch always speaks to him strangely after this and rarely tells Arthur what the plans are at the moment.

Once when I was at horseshoe overlook Dutch said to me “ in the end I know you’ll betray me Arthur, you look the type” and Arthur was like what you mean by that lol but it was really random and very early in game

Like you said, Arthur mentioned to dutch about him killing the old lady in cold blood in guarma. I personally think thats when Arthur really starts to get on the fence about dutch and starts trusting him less and less and less. There were a few things before that but Arthur kinda just brushed it off. But I really think it was in guarma he started doubting dutch. But then right after guarma and coming back suddenly Micah is basically dutches right hand man. Micah basically stole Arthur's spot. Hope that makes sense. That would mess with anyone. And id definitely start looking at the both of them very weirdly. Than getting tuberculosis on top of all that. I can't say I blame Arthur for going against dutch for that ending. I'd say that at that point dutch betrayed Arthur. Not the other way around. Dutch went against everything he preached to Arthur and the gang. Dutch basically turned a crazed hypocrite, slowly descending into madness and balls out evil. I really loved Arthurs character.

You know what else goes over everybody’s heads? When Charles and Arthur return to Colter. Arthur greets Uncle, addressing him as “the camp rat”. And then I noticed when Uncle leads Arthur, Bill and Charles off to rob the Cornwall wagon of payroll. Charles says, “we should cover our faces”. Everyone does except Uncle. There’s also the rescuing of Uncle from getting beaten up at the saloon in Valentine. If you follow him, he doesn’t go back to camp. He heads in the direction of Blackwater. In the direction, but not straight to, because Arthur is following him. I think Uncle is actually the rat, not Micah. Milton wouldn’t be so stupid as to give away his informant, but Uncle could have told him about the distrust Arthur had for Micah. Uncle wouldn’t have been so foolish as to tell Milton where the camp was, as he was protecting the women and little Jack. Implying that he does have a heart. I also want to point out something that I haven’t seen many people theorize on. Hosea’s illness. Several times it’s brought up that Hosea didn’t look too good. I’m wondering if Hosea had also contracted TB, before Arthur had. And I’m wondering if Hosea sacrificed himself in Saint Denis.

Remember when Hosea said to Dutch about how he wasn't trying to undermine him? Arthur was way more direct with his words and so the gravity of his statements feels way heavier. It was always really there, like a paper cartridge but no percussion cap, which was set off by the growing distrust of Arthur on Dutch. The fact that at the very end, Dutch admitted to the fact he couldn't change really means that he was always like that from the very beginning.

Dutch began to lose it BEFORE the game even began. It’s emphasised as early as the first chapter by a few different characters when they talk about how he shot the innocent woman on the boat in Blackwater. When Arthur asks him what happened at Blackwater during the first mission, Dutch gets sort of bitter and retorts “we missed you!” (I think it’s referenced in the diary that Arthur and Hosea were working a separate job which is why he wasn’t on the boat). He saw Arthur’s not being there as a betrayal and one of the reasons the heist went badly. It wasn’t like Dutch to shoot a woman before Blackwater. That’s why it bothers Arthur and he keeps trying to uncover what happened in Blackwater. Arthur already suspects something isn’t right. So does Hosea. It starts showing more at horseshoe overlook. Dutch will actually lose his temper with Arthur just standing nearby idly on the FIRST DAY there…I found this out recently when I was having Arthur explore the camp. It shows how paranoid and short fused Dutch could be. Hosea will panic a bit when Dutch starts getting irritated at camp quite early in - to me this shows Hosea was aware of Dutch starting to become unpredictable. You can find Dutch’s speech notes at the horseshoe overlook camp, he’s got delusions of grandeur (he’s a narcissist and needs the gang for constant fuel), he has Molly on his ass at every turn - she noticed he’d changed early on and she tried to reference it more than once to him and was always pushed away (a few times she’ll subtly reference it in camp to Arthur long before Shady Belle). It’s all there if you look deeper and pay attention at the start.

Very cool video man, nice pace, watched it while rolling up and you kept me company. Cheers to you mate

Its so sad because in chapter 6, even tho Arthur knows everything is over, he constantly tries to reason with Dutch the whole chapter, to no success and Dutch just being dismissive is sad

he says the same thing when they are at horseshoe overlook where author says I insist and dutch waits then says it back to him in disbelief