When Lasers aren’t fast enough: Form 3+ Speed and Quality Benchmarks! 

While the print times could be more accurate, They will never be 100% on the Form 3. Besides the fact that heatup is not included in the calculation, the Z axis has a force sensor and pulls the part off the tank until it detaches, it doesn't just always "lift up by [amount] of millimeters". So how much it needs to peel is determined in real time by the sensors in the machine, which is hard to predict, ergo PreForm won't ever be as arccurate as an FDM printer for example. Could still be tons better though

Dlp is the way

Agreed. DLP based printer would have been a more apt comparison

Have you tried BASF Ultracur3D resins with your MSLA printer? I also own a Form2, but I haven't been that impressed with their Tough and Durable resins, I find them too soft. For example I have printed wall supports for tools in Tough, which were fine at first, but they started to bend more and more as months went by under constant but very reasonable load (like a medium-size screwdriver). And at the same time, they are also a bit brittle, they don't always survive a table-height fall. They also deform very quickly as soon as you heat them a little (especially the Durable). All in all, IMO they don't really hold the comparison with any kind of ABS or PC plastic for instance. The Grey Pro is pretty good though, but I don't print directly technical parts with it, I use it to print mold masters and then mold the same geometry in PU resin, which is way better structurally. Tired of the high price of Formlabs consumables and low durability of their resin vats, I just ordered a Creality Halot Sky with a bunch of BASF resins. They are pretty pricey compared to other resins in this category, but still half the price of Formlabs' ones. FEP films are also 10 times cheaper than Form2's vats, and I suspect that they will last longer because they are not subjected to a highly-concentrated laser. Time will tell.

@@HerrHeisenheim Thank you for the info on the BASF resins. I had come across them when a I was shopping for a photocentric printer but hadn't seen them from other distributors, I'm in Canada, so resin selection can be limited at times. We print parts that are used for coating application so we are spinning them up to 24K rpm and then hitting them with a high pressure stream of epoxy. I have also had good luck with the ApplyLab Works resins for laser. I believe it's the higher energy density of the laser spot that allows these resins to have higher functional properties, as the MSLA UV energy is distributed across the entire print surface. The challenging part is always identifying the specific end user use case and selecting the proper resin for it.

Have you had a chance to try our Blu Nlyon-Like and Tenacious? They have been used by many users for engineering projects for fixtures to gears. A good postcuring routine is also important to get most out of MSLA engineering resin

Slava Ukraini

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Just wondering why you don’t like resin?

why do u like resin?

Nazis! Nazis everywhere!

Has your machine ever had optical issues? I had 2 Form 2’s and they both have optical issues after a few months.

That would be a fast great test.

Really? I've found it to be quite the opposite. Part support is complicated, and can always be better. But print speed and object location are always in contention with how Preform is attempting to reduce tank wear over time. It's kina like how if you use a mouse on a specific spot on your desk, that specific spot will be worn down much faster than the rest of the desk. That being said, the print estimates could definitely be improved.

Exactly, you can tell someone is getting paid these machines are way overpriced and unreliable.

100% agree, the prints are extremely disappointing. I regret buying one. Also agree they are extremely buggy and unreliable.

What MSLA do you recommend?

That’s normal for power adapters.

@@lazyman1011 yeah, but i needed a connector like shown and didnt found one

Yeah, these were pretty tricky to track down! They're called "XT60E-F" and mine are labeled "KingApe". Found them on ebay. You can tell they're just overmoulded regular XT-60 connectors, but they work really well.

@@ShasOAunLa If it’s for private use just buy a regular XT and print the stuff around, there are some nice STL available for free.

Yes, but instead of replacing the FEP screen on a cheaper printer, you can also just buy a whole new printer for the price of a new Formlabs Resintank.

We use Formlabs at work, many engineers use it occasionally, who aren't very good or interested in the printing, they just want their part. If we would have each user able to set different parameters, empty and fill a vat with resin I don't think the printer would last for long. Formlabs is like Apple for printers, questionable value, locked eco system but reliable and hard to mess up. Those colleagues who are interested in printing own their own MSLA machines.

@@bagibadoo439 you know, that really makes sense. It's not necessarily the fastest or the most flexible, but it's a tightly knit ecosystem.

MSLA Pixels are only really visible on the earliest machines like the original Mars - on newer or better optimized printers like the Mars 3 or SL1S, they are only visible with a macro lens (as seen in the video) or a microscope, but not noticeable to the naked eye aside from the "shimmer on parts.

The pixels can he reduced greatly with anty aliasing and blur in softwares like lychee and chitubox.

These printers are terrible for models and miniatures. I found out the expensive way.

While the details are better on the SL1S part, this is not over exposed resin, as Thomas correctly stated this has to do with the laser spot being a good chunk larger than the individual pixels of the SL1S screen and that's why small details get softened

@@Chaosghoul I disagree. The dot would have to be very large to cause this mush difference in the print. Even if the dot size is larger, the software should be able to compensate, just as CNC software creating gcode can compensate for different tool diameters. If this absolutely has to do with the dot size, then the software is doing a poor job accounting for it.

@@watsonstudios A laser isn't an end mill. The spot size is typically defined as FWHM which basically means it will expose a little outside it's supposed size. Also, if they are not positioning the laser very accurately they might want to overexpose a little in order to prevent parts breaking.

@@watsonstudios there's no compensation to be done there, if the user asks to have a pin that's 50µm in diameter to be drawn while the spot size s 85µm, you can either flash the laser once or not at all

@@dutchr4zor True but the software can position the laser dot inside the outline/perimeter, not "on" the outline/perimeter to keep accuracy. Sure, if the dot is too big for a given detail, then it will overrun the outline and expand the detail in that area. FDM printers also compensate and run the bead "inside" the outer perimeter of the surface to keep outer dimensions accurate.

Depending on your needs. How should someone decide it without info. It’s like, should I buy a winter or summer jacket.

@@lazyman1011 yeah but what would be my needs to prefere the Formlabs one?

@@allcrafter3747 for me it's that it literally works each and every time. I've had some dumb glitches where it doesn't calculate the amount of resin it has, but if you start with a fresh vat, enough resin. Press print -- it will work. The amount of failures that happen in MSLA world because of peel issues, if you need to have it work and not mess with the the literal mess of resin, then pay the price for the f3 + clean + cure setup. If you're just tinkering, then its not for you

@@kazolar Yes I know but isn't Prusa also providing top level user experience?

I regret buying a Formlabs printer. The user experience is great but the prints are terrible, the machine and consumables are grossly overpriced. The machines are also super buggy. There are constant firmware updates that routinely break the machine. They basically use their customers as beta testers.

@@JorgTheElder u mean it will not bend, cause there is no entire layer curing??

After talking to the FromLabs rep we deal with at work I can tell you it isn't much of a difference.

I have a Phrozen 8K Mini, a Phorzen Sonic 4K (the fancy dental printer) and a Form3. The FormLabs prints are a joke compared to what either of the Phrozen machines will do. If you want crisp details on miniatures and models, the FormLabs machines are not for you. Seriously disappointing.

Phrozen 8K trashes this printer for both speed and quality.

You dont have to replace the screen on the cheaper printers, just buy a new one. You can buy 10 cheaper printers instead of one Formlabs printer. Literally every pro of the Formlabs printer is undone by it’s price. There is no real reason to have a Formlabs printer.

GARBAGE! Coming from a guy that learned that lesson the expensive way.

Cheap...well ...

@@noway8233 5k EUR is quite cheap for entry-level (true) SLA. I've worked with ones that cost more than twenty times more. And they are still not the high end. 1kg of good quality resin made in the EU costs more than some of the cheaper mLCD printer-like products.

Good quality resin makes prints "pop", and Formlabs resins are not top quality. Just good. They've always had also quite a large shrinkage, but increased shrinkage is a problem of all 405nm systems and can be mitigated only in certain (and quite) expensive manners. Smaller shrinkage= shorter wavelengths and/or ceramic infused resins

What dont you like about it?

@@nf794 there is pretty decent list... Apart from that is a very closed system. Everything is DRM'd with built in chips, labeled to make things more easy and customer friendly. In reality the locked nature defeats the technical level the machine has, at least for professionals that want to push the limits. You can pretty much only use Form resin, unless you buy a 'cracked' third party resin tank, that needs to be reprogrammed with a Windows only software (if you choose to use another resin). The same is for the resin VAT. Preform does not allow you to change printer names (it is factory assigned). Does not allow you to export in any other file format... Previous machines had an "open mode" never ones dont even have that anymore. And few more...

@@SarahKchannel You can't change the name of your printer because that's its serial name, like your phones IMEI number

Likely the resin they sent him.

@@Chaosghoul I know - but when did I have to interact with a MAC address or IMAI number - NEVER - but a animal name I have to see on every print window. Its a californian hypster thing I assume, but childish and dumb. Give it a normal serial, let the user use an 'alias' so it can be integrated into a workflow. Like "Printer LAB Left", "Printer LAB Center", etc.... For the price I expect it not to behave like a cool toy - but like a tool.

In my opinion the surface finish on any of the Form3 series machines isn't actually very good compared to other high end printers I'm using. I completely agree that there is no justification for the cost of the machine or it's consumables. I haven't found any advantage that makes it worth $3500 + consumables.

I agree, the contrast comes from the tiny shadows made by the voxels.

As the unfortunate owner of a Form3 I can assure these machines are absolutely terrible at rendering details. The machine is a huge waste of money if you do miniatures.

Actually, you weren't 🤣