Who is Melee's Greatest Player Of All Time Actually? 

I think m2k correctly pegged the top 3 as armada, hbox and mang0. Between those 3, there are good arguments for any of them.

Idk man i remember Armada as the guy that only lost like 3 sets to non top 10 guys, for me that is also goat status

GOAT discussions are one of the weirdest things in competitive sports. There's no truly objective way to determine who's the GOAT, discussions either lead to an "Agree to disagree"-outcome or end in heated, non-sensical Twitter arguments. I also feel like a lot of people have already decided who they think the GOAT is and then try to make up reasons to justify why. But yet, they're one of the most prevalent, fun and seemingly important discussions within competitive sports. They keep the community engaged and I couldn't imagine sports without them - despite how inconsequential they may often be in the end.

I spent some time looking at historical rankings on liquidpedia and found a few interesting points: A) Armada has been rank #1 in 5 separate years. Mango 3. Ken 6.* B) Armada has 9 years as a top player, Mango has 15 (and counting). C) In every year Armada was rank #1, Mango was #2 or #3. D) In his 15 years as a top ranked player, mango has been lower than #3 only twice: in 2007 when he was #10, and 2018 when he was #5 (I'm giving him "at least #3" for 2020 and 2021). E) In his 10 years as a top ranked player, Armada has been #2 four times, and #3 once. Obviously historical rankings are only one way you can look at this question, but it is the simplest way to get into a quantitative comparison. If we try to draw a conclusion from this data, it's hard to get past the fact that Mango's career as a top player is 50% longer, and even when Armada was on top, mango wasn't far behind him. If you value #1 rankings above all else, Ken wins. If you eliminate Ken by saying more recent years have been more competitive, then you need to account for the fact that Mango has been playing in the 3 years since Armada retired. Ultimately the argument will never actually be settled, because we all secretly just love talking about melee and settling the argument would be less fun than continuing to debate it. But the way I see it, in a discussion about the greatest of *all time*, Mango's much longer career makes up for him having a slightly lower average ranking. *: I'm counting each year once, there were several years with summer + year-end rankings which complicates things, so I just gave each player credit for the highest of the 2 rankings they got that year.

I'm earlier than Armada's retirement

As a melee history/stats fan edwin budding's content has always been a god send, even before the top 100 list if I remember correctly

I do think that if you want to talk about best players of all time, it's pretty much impossible to come to a consensus but I consider greatness to be a different measurement, that includes things like impact and influence. And when you look at Mang0's resume, not only what he's done in the game but what he's done for the game, across multiple eras, I don't think you can argue against him being unequivocally the greatest.

It’s ez. It’s Armada.

Honestly, it’s still gotta be Armada for me… A lot of players have high peaks, but no one has a combination of peaks and consistency like Armada.

GOATS: babe Ruth, Michel Jordan, and Bobby scar

Ultimately, there are objective metrics, but which you value is subjective. Biggest earner? Hbox, then Armada. Peak skill? Mango or Zain. Strongest period of dominance? Armada then Hbox, maybe M2K. Overall longevity in the top ten? Mango. You put this all together and two things are clear. There are people who are in the conversation (Hbox, Zain, Mango, Armada, maybe M2K) and there's everyone else. At this time, nobody has a lock on any two objective metrics, so its all about how you weigh each player.

Scar’s not aiming for the top, he’s aiming for the funny number.

Not trying to start any fights - just want to understand why people look at *raw* skillset when looking at greatest lists I don't understand the point of looking at who is the best ever without taking into account era that an individual played - and Im curious why it's ever looked at. There are exceptions to the rule (Wayne Gretzky & Wilt Chamberlain come to mind *for separate reasons), but overall it creates a gigantic recency bias. With raw skill POV- Active & recent players will almost always be looked at as the greatest in their field because they've built upon the discoveries and research from those in the past; and penalizes those who competed prior to various advancements in the game itself. A few examples that fine to mind: *Tech (slideoff, CC, kill confirms) *Equipment (controller nonsense) *Environment (tournament accessibility) *Rules: (stage selection) [or every oldschool basketball fan calling players now soft :)] Etc. Etc. Just my point of view that without context, you are subject to harsh bias. It also causes statistics to become grossly manipulated (even if unintentional). Because of that, its not something I would consider. I am curious why other do, please let me know :) ***sorry for errors, on a phone. Idgaf about edits.*** Edit- okay 1 edit. GG .. .. .. .. also Prime Blur is uncontested GOAT

I gotta disagree with Mango over Armada. Mango was clearly the best in 2009, but goofed off in a lot of 2010-11 before Armada took off in 2011-2013, not dropping a single tournament between Genesis 2 and Apex 2013. Then he was very clearly the best in 2013-2014 (conveniently, when Armada was briefly in and out of retirement), and Armada was #1 in 2015-2016 (and imo would have been in 2018 if he hadn't retired in September of that year). Also keep in mind that Mango and Zain's dominance this past 1.5 years has been in the complete absence of Leffen and Armada. The real kicker imo between the two is that when Armada was not best in the world, he was #2 at absolute worst and still obliterated the field, and when Mango was not #1, he could be anywhere from #2 to #5, or whatever you want to call ScorpionMaster. Add on to that Armada's sheer dominance against every player not named one of the Gods or Leffen during most of that time, contrasted with Mango dropping random sets to far, far lower ranked players, and it leaves Armada as the Greatest of All Time in my opinion. Mango's only real advantage when comparing the two is pure longevity. He's been at the overall top level longer (2007-2021 vs 2009-2018 [probably 2008 realistically]), but his peaks were lower and shorter, and his valleys were far longer and lower than Armada's. If he were to be ranked #1 again for another year or so, I'd reconsider, because longevity and playing in the modern era do count for something. Zain, frankly, has no argument whatsoever for Greatest if we're looking at legacy.

I think there is a mistake in the way we define the framework of GOAT conversations that really hurts people being able to understand each other and their picks (and this is true in every sport and and esport I’ve been a part of). We all agree at this point that “GOAT” can have multiple different meaning and aspects that comprise it, and obviously it’s definition can change person to person. We usually then start the conversation with “what do you value?” Then we lay out 2 supposed diametrical opposed sides. Do you value long term performance or high short term peaks? I think the misstep is that obviously we all value both and both could be used by the same person to backup a goat pick. And that is ok. Certain contexts will make certain aspects of GOAT status more impressive than others. Take toph in this video as an example. He said he values density of results more. He then goes to put mango above armada mostly due to the fact that mango has been a top player across multiple eras. I’d be hard pressed to say that any 2 year stretch of mangos career ever hit the heights of armadas 2016-2017, but I still agree that mango probably deserves the goat spot and it’s not because I inherently value longevity more. The context of melee is important. Melee is not very old in the eyes of traditional sports. We have seen an insane evolution in how the game melee is played. Even in the last 5 years, players do stuff we thought was TAS only a couple years earlier. So to see a player like mango be best in the world in 2010 and then be able to consistently battle his way back into the top 2 in many different eras (2015 and now 2021) is insane when you think about the evolution of the game. As a quick counter example to show context matters let’s look at Ben Rothlesburger in football. He also has had an insanely long career and even had years where he was an S tier QB and won super bowls. However he never hit the heights of someone like Peyton manning. However, in the last 15 years, the way football is played has not changed much. What made a great qb in 2005 is similar to 2021, so I don’t think Ben should be considered anywhere near manning in a Goat conversation. Hope this starts to get recognized more, cause goat convos are much more fun when we’re not stuck in the weeds of defining our meta logic

Perhaps a more interesting discussion would be a ranking of their dominance as competitors during their time. It's hard to evaluate "greatness" since we all weigh things differently and techniques change and develop. At least looking at their dominance during their time evaluates the mental fortitude of competitors against each other across eras.

Alright, listen: what if the REAL reason behind the 100 best players of all time list IS to put Scar as the 69th best player of all time, but they couldn't just go and do it, so they had to create a 100 player list, write it down, come up with a methodology, etc?

All of Tophs fire takes in this makes me wish *he would* tell us who he thinks is overrated and underrated on this list!

Armada the GOAT, numbers don't lie

All tierlists favors modern GOATs when all the skill level of the average player goes up. It punishes early people/pioneers.

ive never once seen anyone who claims to value longevity in their rankings actually carry that through to its logical conclusion, mew2king as the indisputed goat. i guess the reason they dont is that mew2king goat sounds ridiculous, we all know who's better than him - but to me, what that says is that "greatest of all time", as distinct from "greatest right now", is an entirely meaningless concept; nobody actually believes in the factors we use to differentiate the two from each other.

You'll only know the goat when the game dies

Mang0 is a dodger constantly parading that he's the GOAT.. it's on his Jersey. Remember when Armada didn't lose to anyone outside the top 5 for 4 years and stayed hella quiet about it? Humility and dominance.

1:26 How tf did Zelgadis make it on that list?? I mean shit I like Shined Blind too but dude stole like thousands of dollars from Genesis 2 lmfao

To me, this is about the greatest of all times, not the best. The best of all time sure, is 99% the current #1 player, but the greatest, that's a bit of a different story. To me, this word speaks to the magnitude of this players presence in the scene, the weight of his play, the overall impact this player has, not only skill wise, but also in the larger story. I don't care how hard Zain would fuck up 2004 Ken, I care how impactful their results and carrers have been. By this metric, to me it can be none other then mango, but thats just my own parameter for deciding this

7:38 toph you forgot 2007 M2K

The difference is that basketball has rule and medicine changes that it’s still called basketball, but is basically a different sport. Think as if someone called Brawl and Ultimate the same game just bc it’s smash bros. Melee is still the same game, so old school players like Ken get waxed in a fair battleground

My top 25 all time 1. Mango 2. Armada 3. Hungrybox 4. M2k 5. Ken 6. Leffen 7. Zain 8. Ppmd 9. Plup 10. Axe 11. Wizzrobe 12. Chu Dat 13. Azen 14. Sfat 15. PC Chris 16. S2J 17. iBDW 18. aMSa 19. Isai 20. Korean DJ 21. Captain Jack 22. Shroomed 23. Hax 24. Wobbles 25. Westballz HMs: n0ne, lucky, hugs, Jman Not a perfect list but my opinion. Valuing longevity, peaks, era, context.

Toph says “i like the argument that if you put everyone at their peak in a tourney, who wins is the greatest”. If that’s the metric, armanda is the GOAT and it honestly isn’t even close. If longevity matters, then sure give it to mango

Yeah, it’s probably better to switch over to the argument method, like X player has an argument, “this list of players has an argument but I think out of this list the player with the strongest argument is bla bla”.

7:34 i seperate my "greatest player of all time" and my "best player of all time" personally and i feel like more people should

Zain is the GOAT, not a doubt in my mind. Anyone who disagrees is living in the past. Zain>Mang0>>>Armada

Melee has been an amazing story. The fact that zain is in the conversation is just insane

Still Armada but its gonna be Mang0 in a few years

Delusion is strong as fuck in the “melee scene”.

Who has been on top longer? Who looks unbeatable when they are playing at their best? Say what you want but when mango turns up the heat, he does shit that just blows the mind, kinda like how MJ soared through the air. It just hits different when you see it.

Toph best commentator of all time D1 was prob my personal fav back in the day but toph with his stainless legacy way superior :>

Disappointed that toph said ultimately instead of melee-ly at 1:59

As of now: Armada If Mang0 wins a few more super majors then I'll give him the nod. Zain would need to be number 1 or 2 for quite a few years... and Mang0 obviously couldn't be higher than him often during that time. Big ask, but not impossible.

I'm not even an Armada fan but if you compare everyone at their peaks I really think Armada would win that tournament. Everyone says the scene has leveled up (which is true) but Hbox is out there halfassing tournaments and getting top 3. Basically there are a lot of players who have quickly gotten to the skill that would have been top 20 tier in 2015 very quickly but Armada literally never lost to any top 20 level players anyway. He just lost to gods and even then rarely so the scene level up would not affect peak Armada at all IMO. Armada clearly beats Mango in lifetime results and Mango is still beating Zain some of the time. I honestly think people are forgetting how insane Armada was. He had the highest peak and the longest dominant streak and in an era where 4 gods, Leffen, and Plup were showing up to pretty much everything Armada was the guy who was nearly always winning. His results page on the melee wiki is hilarious because it's like 80% first place.

The three relevant faces. At least we know Toph isn't crazy.

one GOAT is playing Mario 64... Another one is commentating....

Current skill level heavily rests on how much people are grinding a practice mode that didn't exist. Unless you're willing to factor in how much past players would have thrived using such tools, comparison with current top players would just always result in the newer players winning outright, pretty much removing the personal element of skill.

Can someone please tell me why mango and Zain were not at mainstage?

I think it s pretty clear that mango is the goat at this point. Armada retired too early, he must have figured it would end up being mango if mango kept play

I like numerology And space trip 2

What a surprise, a friend of mango doesn’t think that Armada is The Goat

Nice brave browser and even better video

OUTRO SONG PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAASE

The disrespect having Zain and not Hbox in the thumbnail, wow.

I think it's more like melee is a farm with a massive herd of goats

Yup gotta be mango

I feel as the top 7 should be the gods, leffen and plup.

1. Mang0 2. Armada 3. HBox 4. Zain 5. M2K 6. Leffen 7. Plup 8. PPMD 9. Jeff (all the Jeffs) 10. Mitchell Tang I think this is the pretty clear top 10. After that it can go all sorts of ways.

Having a top 100 of all time is an issue in itself, how would you even be able to accurately rank this many players. Also every list that either doesnt elaborately explain all its criteria (and how they weigh among each other), or isnt consistent within its own criteria gets a hard dismiss from me.

Did you intentionally not show the list as much as possible? I swear I couldn't see 30 - 1

ez it’s mango

So many blind Mang0 fanboys in this yt comment section that think he's the GOAT when in reality, he has never been half as consistent or dominant as Armada was. Yeah sure he's the GOAT because he plays spacies and they're cool lmfao.

The Top 5 of Melee will be hard to crack.

Talk about leffen and jisu breaking the code of conduct

Armada is the goat , its so ez

CTRL+F "bum". Me too, Toph. Always looking for booty.

A small thing, but super telling of the community's dismissiveness of Hbox that Zain is in the thunbnail and not him. For me Mango is the GOAT, but on results, Hbox absolutely has an argument. Only player to go #1 for 3 straight years *ever*, something Mang hasn't done since 2014...

I'll take the guy who's won majors in 3 different decades with 3 different characters (not even counting him screwing around with Falcon and Marth). I'll take the guy who has been #1 in the world or at least in conversation for #1 in the world in 3 different decades. I'll take the guy who so thouroughly dominated the scene he dropped his first main because he was bored. I'll take the guy who holds the lion's share of the most epic tournament runs in history. I'll take the guy who has beaten everyone from Ken and PC Chris to Zain and iBDW. I'll take the guy who self-admittedly didn't care that much at certain points in time and was still a top 5 if not top 3 player in the world. I'll take the guy who has the level of innate genius, talent, and understanding of their craft that few others do in anything. I'll take the guy who has won exactly as many majors and supermajors as armada (not even counting online) and will inevitably pass him. I'll take the guy who continues to show amazing gameplay and innovations to this day. I'll take the guy who didn't run away when he was starting to fall like he said he was considering at the end of 2014 and stuck it out and battled back to still be here today across many eras, meta, and scene changes over the guy who quit once he started losing to people like swedish delight and getting his ass kicked by leffen.

When mang0 is still a top top player in 2025 this will seem like a joke to even ask who’s the goat

Wizzy is the only goat

ken was an ostensibly god tier but actually only above average player that rose to the top by virtue of the fact that 99% of his opponents were total shitters

Personally I only care about the BOAT and that's clearly either Zain or Mang0. Armada is clearly out in this one. GOAT conversations are impossible and pointless

easy to rank the GOAT. Who's won the most majors and had the longest streak of dominance? HGOAT.

You give to much credit to new players, when the old players where the ones who had to innovate and discover how to play. You essentially saying that a new beetles cover band is more better than the original beetles. Because they're more newer and play their songs better, with modernized equipment. This is discrediting the innovation the beetles made in their music. They were the original composers and inventors of their music. This is much harder to accomplish than just playing learning how to play the beetles catalog. I don't think you can objectively say someone is the goat, since its all relative to their times respective meta. Everyone seems to just repeat what ever mangos self serving mantra is, now the mantra that "we give to much credit to the past" spewed by mango, is spreading. Is there any figurehead in melee, that's not in mangos bandwagon? jeez man. You guys let mango have a monopoly of influence and no one challenges him.

Mango is the GOAT. Armada has nothing on Mangos legacy of victories and losers brackets runs. Armada knew his time in the spotlight was running short and ran away away to protect his legacy when Hbox started to have his streak of sheer domination over melee. It will be interesting to see how people view this in the next 5 years with players as strong as Wizzy, Zain, Amsa, Plup and Leffen all being at such an insane skill level above the rest of the curve. But in 5 years, everyone is going to say the same shit about Armada as they do about Ken these days. Game wasn't as pushed/competitive back then etc etc. Hbox has even called mango the goat. If it weren't for the docs there would be no question that its between Hbox and Mango for GOAT, but the community hates Hbox's bubbletheory/ledge playstyle that they try to ignore how dominant Hbox was 3 years ago. Hbox still places top 8 in everything and noone is even caring or putting his name towards the title.

It’s mango easily

Wobbling era is like items era, it's not relevant to the lineal melee we cherish.

Toph stop bro, you can’t even put zains picture up there as if he’s in the conversation cuz he’s not. Stop bro.