Who Is Provoking the Unrest in Ukraine? A Debate on Role of Russia, U.S. in Regional Crisis (2/2) 

true true true

​@@zaurabkhazi1329Exactly, but Victoria Nulands voice recording aged like good wine.

The United States overthrew it. Victoria Nuland was picking out the government of Ukraine before the old government was ousted. Remember her "F the EU thing?" THAT was the conversation in which she picked out the new government that Ukraine got.

Said the ignorant American conservative who watches RT videos and thinks he's educated on the topic. Ray McGovern sure puts a lot of respect on those Russian names as he disseminates the Kremlin's obfuscations and deceptions.

Well, I'm sure he knows his proper personal pronouns. What else is there?

He's one of those state worshippers

FUGG INTERNATIONAL LAW, WE ARE INDEPENDENT, UKRAINE IS INDEPENDENT, RUSSIA IS INDEPENDENT, EACH HAVE THEIR OWN GOVERNMENTS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT??

HEAR, HEAR ~

Agree 💯. Or wanting the U.S and Europe to stop secret operations in Africa, and we can go on and on.

what he means is American Law.

Is Snyder a dick, or what?

Are the NWO liberals or fascists I wonder? Anybody projects his worst fears into that acronym. There is no such thing as a world wide conspiracy. But there are many conspiracys of different groups that seem to overlap. It´s always profitable to be a double agent.

BrotherWoody1, I think your theory simply stretches the boundary of practicality and reason to unimaginable lengths. "Fascist Empire" and "New World Order"? Do you truly feel like you live in a Fascist society? We have a Black president.

Wow, this comment aged well.

@@pcuimac Liberals are fascists. They are a cult of pseudo science, i.e. radical environmentalists- population alarmists who feel the need to cull the herd of people. They don't give Margaret Sanger awards to conservatives. The Neo Cons are liberals and the leftists are libertines who only care about freedom of every sexual perversion they can imagine.

Not Fascist- Bolshevik. And yes I do.

Согласен с Вами.

And my brother became The People's Governor of Donbass. The rest is history. Let's hope and pray I'm happily dead and reunited with my murdered parents and brother in Heaven before I'm forced to follow in Pavel Gubarev's footsteps and become the Governor of the People's Republic of California. Because the way things are going...

Same people involved again. Nuland, Sullivan, Biden. So obvious what America has been doing for the last 30 years. Biden appears to have even profited personally from this arrangement.

Snyder knows all about it. He just doesn't give a rat's ass.

Come on, say it. You are completely vindicated by the latest developments :-)

@@alexandrossanidas5205 Seven years ago and he is spot on..Damn.

Sopt on! Just update with the the american GMO crops that will finally enter the european economies thanks to the food shortage that is being created.

No. Absolutely not! They can have Petlyura or they can have me! End of story.

Hello, it's like La Cosa Nostra- you don't just leave the Blake Association.

he hasn't made a decent point in ten minutes. dose he think russian secret service dig information for the media.. fucking lunatic

I guess he missed the Nuland / Pryatt voice recording.

guys like you probably think revolutions just drop down on your lap from the outer space with no underlying legitimate causes whatsoever. Ukrainian people have a perfect right for their own revolution, just as they have the responsibility not to alienate the other minorities by their increasingly zealous ethno-linguistic nationalism. So crying about the NGO's is really a way of dismissing the reality in which people openly and legitimately dislike their conditions on the ground and are willing to risk their own wellbeing to try to change it. Blaming everything on the West is rather childish and extreme.

Right!!! The US government provoking a regime change in it's best interest is the same as a revolution that is lead by the people themselves and which places the peoples interests first? I guess you haven't heard of our buddy Pinochet, or any of a dozen other tyrants we have installed as leader over the years.

@@orthodium You mean; the western and central ukraine people had the right to overthrow the whole countrys government? Hell no, they didn't.

@@peterjensen3076 Technically, The People are the rulers of their own destiny, not their political leaders, it is even enshrined in many constitutions literally, including in the constitution of Ukraine. But it also prescribes a procedure of constitutionally removing a sitting president via impeachment, which wasn’t followed back in 2014. A similar schism exists between the notion of right for self-determination on one hand and a territorial integrity on another, which at times diametrically oppose one another. It’s certainly not a black vs white type of situation, as there is plenty of grey area in between, and much of blame to go around for the clusterf*** we all observe now in action.

@@orthodium Very relevant points. Are you aware of the technical errors and the abrupt timeline of the removal of Janukovitj? And is it true that he was threatened in Kiev, then went to Kharkov, and from there had to flee to Russia? I think the facts in the days of the coup rather important to get straight.

Isn’t it part of the plan for global capitalists, to destabilize and destroy Russia, then later on to China?

Hence, Zelinkski…

Yes. McGovern seems to know what he's talking about. He's been studying this region since back in the days of the Cold War. Snyder is a lapdog, and propagandist.

terrafirma91 McGovern seems to know what he's talking about? Fifteen minutes into the debate he was still referring to Russia as the "Soviet Union".....the Soviet Union ceased to exist in 1991, over two decades ago. Furthermore, he mentioned that 9th century Kievan Rus was basically the precursor to modern-day Russia....that's akin to saying the Roman Empire was the forerunner to modern-day Italy, not to mention that, if you take his approach, Kievan-Rus existed on the soil of modern-day Russia. A few things he says do hold ground, for sure. However, you lose a whole bunch of credibility when you muddle those two basic historical facts, especially if you're a former CIA analyst. As for Snyder, what exactly would you say makes him, as you so put it, a "lapdog" and "propagandist"? On the contrary, the overwhelming majority of what he said was completely accurate and sound. Much more so than McGovern's comments.

Petro Mycio So in other words you think the overthrow of a democratically elected government by the US/NATO is something good. You probably also think holding a referendum in Crimea is illegal. Democracy is "okay" if the results fit your agenda.

Petro Mycio o!MY! Petro my friend... I am not going to be so nice to you... my sincere apology for being in the face... thus the simple parallel expression. PETRO!! YOU SUCK!!! ok now let us get to the nitty-gritty (don't you love how I spelled it!?)... well sadly, to rehash all the semantics and drown the story in endless rhetoric just does not work for me. It fails the common mind. Addressing the higher end on the intellectual scale has worked so well over the years that we can just say: BIG ZERO - FAIL! ...and that is why we are in this predicament, sheople does not know semantics. ...and point blank, UP-FRONT, once you are in sync with reality, DISCUSSING this horror at the POLITICAL stage is UTTERLY EMPTY OF understanding. The political charade is part of their great veil, if not the MAIN part.(again sheople latches on to the easiest path, which certainly does not translate into hard work and research, rather the much easier running of one's mouth). If you were to key on some choice-words which are at the root of it all, one can simply make a reference to Rothschild's mother NASTY UTTERANCE on her death bed. The truth tends to come out even if spoken from evil lips at the moment of death! ...and she said, nonchalantly in an existentialist frame(or she would have said 'cause' instead of 'want'): "... if my sons did not want war, there would be none! ..." - NOW... that may not have as much weight as one would interpret if ignorant of the massive amount of facts and events in [ONLY] the last 300 years which bring the JEW/FREEMASON scourge of the earth in the light of reality via all their NASTY SYMBOLS, false flag operations, and PREDATOR deeds, with at the base their TALMUDIC(Torah as well) ideology and the mere observing they are at the center of all the bloodshed events ranging from assassinations(JEW)ZAPRUDER[keyword], (JEW)Bronstein(Trotsky)(Bolshevik Scourge that stains the Russian name, your 2 (JEW) brothers Christopher and Bartholomew Columbus who led the greatest genocide of all, the massacre of 110 million of my native American people, ... and o! COINCIDENCE yet another JEW installed as a PUPPET, this time UKRAINE!!! How nice the Ashton phone calls were intercepted and published! ... you know... I will be here next year if I don' stop typing... ...and don't hit me with the false JEWs argument, please! JWO says it in 1 word! The Menorah has replaced the Cross on the White House grounds, and the ALL SEEING EYE pyramid rests upon the ROOFTOP of the ISRAELI SUPREME COURT BUILDING IN JERUSALEM, ... so, in short your context is way too limited to even be in the bath tub.

Timothy doesn't think he just talks.

An educated version of Sarah Palin then ;)

Russia would be idiots to let US/ Nato become their neighbors with their coup governments!

landlogger Imagine the Russians doing the same in Mexico !!

kevin chambers We know who would be whining about that.

Bingo! *_*Cui bono? intensifies_** I'm sure you're already aware of all this stuff I'm gonna attempt to meander through to attempt to support your point, but if anyone stumbles across this and is circumstantially unfamiliar, we can come to Dumpsteret1's conclusion even more substantively through looking at history more broadly and through a class-based lens (generally one can simply ask the _only_ political question, as unsubtly hinted a mere sentence ago: _cui bono?_ *_who benefits?_* ) grounding us to the tidal _material_ forces that drive politics beyond the façade of performative piety and its corresponding increasingly thick miasma of rhetorical chicanery. The US has positioned itself as the "consumer of last resort" at the end of the global supply chain to absorb inevitable overproduction of capitalism through cheap consumption or of course through our favorite activity of war/arms sales (military Keynesianism, the only button we can push at this point clearly), launching itself to hegemony post-WWII via imposing the Bretton-Woods international financial system with the US dollar as the "global reserve currency" using the leverage of being the only industrialized nation-state _not_ bombed to shit (US made sure of this with Dresden/Tokyo fire-bombings and of course the entirely unnecessary atomic bombings which were solely to draw radioactive lines in the sand toward the USSR) and taking the imperial baton from the British and their pound sterling. NATO, is an arms distribution network for the military industrial complex and essentially the public face of a European sphere of US domination, covertly enforced by a "strategy of tension" template seen in things like Operation Gladio in Italy (see: "years of lead", Aldo Moro assassination, Bologna bombings, etc.) with parallel operations in every NATO country (and even the ostensibly "neutral" countries like Belgium, Sweden and Finland, what a surprise such cultivated ultranationalism and its corresponding ideological tunnel-vision persists to this day in the same useful capacity as it exists in Ukraine - Austria in fact having done an extensive internal investigation after discovering this if I recall but I clearly digress lol) where the CIA directed fascist paramilitary insurgencies to stoke public fear toward particular goals favorable to US corporate/finance capital and continued US hegemony. _These_ are the materially entrenched political forces cultivated consciously towards these ends; as the first sec.gen. of NATO Lord Ismay succinctly described its geopolitical raison d'être, _"to keep the Americans in, the Germans down, and the Russians out"_ and what a "coincidence", it merely continues to enforce this state of affairs, the "keep the Germans down" sharply illuminated by the destruction of Nord Stream II by the US as reported by Seymour Hersh, aptly described by an associate as "deconstructing the obvious." Even more generally when viewed through a historical materialist lens, I would say keeping industrial Germany from uniting with the resources of Russia has been a geopolitical imperative for maintaining regional spheres of bourgeoisie influence since...well, since Westphalia I guess (~1648?) lol, but more recently since the massively consequential and conveniently never discussed early 20th century and interwar period in Europe, beginning in 1914 with the split within the international socialist movement over providing war credits to fund WWI, rhetorically bludgeoned with calls to "unity" around the German empire (might sound familiar...). Prior to the 1918 German "revolution" that formalized the Weimar republic (capitulating slightly more democratic rights/kicking out the Kaiser, etc.), post-WWI the momentum for a wholly socialist revolution (worker ownership/control of means of production to be clear), the very event Marx had predicted and the one the bolsheviks were _explicitly_ counting on to cohere and cement an industrial production base for a socialist-aligned project (else be doomed from the start and forced toward an "authoritarian" state capitalism in the geopolitical context of competitive nation-states to force industrialization of the largely feudal Tsarist Russia and consequently relegated to the dust bin of history), was kicked off by sailor revolts and various other domestic uprisings but was put down by various duplicitous forces within the SPD/USPD _"social democratic"_ party with folks like Freidrich Ebert who were presumably too comfortable in their bourgeois lives atop the commanding heights of society to support such upheaval of a system which materially privileges them, supporting and directing the freikorps paramilitary (analogous to the American Legion, etc. - essentially an extralegal enforcement of class society, comprised of veterans/"morally injured" people with essentially a usefully narrow ideological tunnel-vision usually to some nationalist ideal, many integrated into the brownshirts and likewise similar to Mussolini's street thug paramilitary the blackshirts; Italian parallel illuminated by the infamous March on Rome) to put down the revolts. _"Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce."_ As it turns out, in the most important ways, the nazis didn't really lose WWII despite the USSR's best efforts...I mean my god, the CIA's raison d'être is essentially as the SS 2.0 for transnational corporate/finance capital. The only distinction between the US neoliberal corporate empire and the third Reich fascist project seems more aesthetic/ideological than anything else, chopping off the viscerally ultranationalist id in favor of a generic "cost-effective" corporate sheen (serving "the market" gods essentially; an unconscious ideological drive to maximize "efficiency" aka capital accumulation in neoclassical/neoliberal econ), trading an explicitly racist ideological lens for one guided by that drive toward technocratic "efficiency". Sheldon Wolin's conception of "inverted totalitarianism" elaborates this well. Hell, far from hyperbole, post-WWII and beyond the more well-known/acquiesced Operation Paperclip, the CIA not only protected non-science-related high-level nazi leadership in the ratlines to South America (useful for things like Operation Condor aka the Monroe Doctrine 2: no sovereignty for you - also see: banana wars, a deep historical continuity of US empire if anyone's circumstantially unfamiliar) but put _literal SS_ on the payroll for their anticommunist "counterinsurgency" bona fides aka terrorism guided by that useful ultranationalist (which is to say, inherently racist, necessarily defined by a negation of an "other") ideological tunnel-vision utilized a la that "strategy of tension"; Klaus "butcher of Lyon" Barbie in France/Bolivia, Reinhard Gehlen of the Gehlen Organization (who literally helms the West German BND), Otto Skorzeny of the Paladin Group who is basically nazi james bond, just to name a few... In regards to Ukraine specifically and as you and Ray McGovern in this video have attempted to underscore, the immediate issue was whether to accept a loan from the International Monetary Fund which was going to require a 40% increase in natural gas bills or to accept a loan from Russia with the inclusion of cheap oil and gas. As you pointed out, the opposition wanted the Yanukovych government to take the EU/IMF loan. The opposition was comprised of different factions, undeniably including the neo-Nazi Svoboda Party and Right Sector. And there is where it all connects to financial empire of the US, fitting quite predictably into this broader continuity contrary to Snyder's assertion that history is somehow irrelevant (curious considering he's ostensibly a historian lol...a massively charitable job description to say the least); it's not "pro-Russia" as is constantly conflated by corporate press (if even discussed at all), it's merely an objectively better deal on energy _without_ binding stipulations of austerity that defines the so-called "washington consensus". _These_ are the notions of "freedom" and "sovereignty" euphemistically appealed to under the global financial order run at the behest of US corporate/finance capital, where all possibility is strictly bound to profitability regardless of "externalities" (like, say, _literally_ destroying the earth) aka reality; a thanatos embrace of the divine right of "the market", a means to no end. Anyway, sorry for the screed of consciousness, it's all to point out the historical tides driven by an overarching US empire and the context this provides to ground us to reality beyond the thin blood-soaked curtain of technologically mediated social control. Also clearly I have nothing better to do lol... _"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."_ - William Casey, -demonic arcon- CIA Director under Reagan Surely he's giving two big thumbs up in hell, which at this point is probably hard to distinguish from the world he helped create for us. Some books coming to mind to fill in the rest of the gaps of historical context/continuity if anyone cares/even reads this _almost_ book-length comment lol: Manufacturing Consent by Chomsky/Herman, The Jakarta Method by Vincent Bevins, Killing Hope by William Blum, Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins, The Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot, American Exception by Aaron Good, anything by Michael Parenti, etc. *_cue Are We The Baddies? sketch_*

what justifies bombing of Serbia then? btw Crimea is Russian territory and it was given by Khrushchev to Ukrainian USSR without even asking citizens of Crimea which are 80% russians 12% Cremea tatar and only 6% ukranians and now that's the only place in Ukraine where is peaceful.

Philip Keys Say what? People under barrel of a gun you say? That's bullshit i have relatives there my stepsister told me recently how happy they are! They celebrating rejoining almost every day She even send me pictures from Crimea and didnt saw any gloomy face there! Also tell me why maidan government put ALL Crimea people in list of enemies of Ukraine? There wasn't any evidence that people vote were voting several times you heard bunch of lies. Referendum was fair people were against self proclaimed maidan government.If Russia didn't support Crimea at that time Crimea were place of bloodshed like all other eastern and southern Ukraine or should I call it Malorossia. You see Ukraine is young country and people there is divided into primarily 2 groups first people of western Ukraine or Bandera (some of which are real fascists you can check here /watch?v=NKuDzXAgdf4 ) and the other group in eastern and southern Ukraine are citizens who shares one history and culture with russians. Odessa Donetsk Kharkiv Lugansk Slovyansk all this territory where russian until in 1922 Lenin gave it away to Ukrainian USSR The real conflict occurs when western Ukraine take over country by maidan revolution southern and eastern regions was not participate in it and mostly where against it when they try to oppose maidan government and ask for federalisation their territory then suddenly they become "separatists" and "terrorists" and sand regular army against them.Federalisation followers could organise small militia and now facing regular army.Its CIVIL WAR thert! I know a lot about Ukranian crisis because I have friends involved in it. 2 of my friends in Donetsk were against separation of country but after Odessa massacre they don't see themselves as ukrainians and want to sign in militia! and btw i checking a lot of media CNN, BBC, FOX, Al Jazeera and no one told truth about Odessa massacre! So i follow live broadcasts of eyewitness and talk with people involved. And you know nothing John Snow!

***** - Indeed my daughter too has friends in Simferopol and they also told us they were happy with the vote.

Vote is held as contrary to international law. Action is similar to how USA stole land from Mexico - the land of my ancestors.

PacificCircle1 The vote was against international law? Does "people self determination" rings a bell? Btw some territories that used to belong to Mexico, were sold by mexican authorities to the US, one of them was Santa Ana.

Thats what America has become - even academics no longer rely on evidence and facts.Intergrity is not important any more just "keeping their jobs"

they are Mercenary's not Russian Troops

Noot Yu Again you are broadcasting your ignorance to a world wide audience. The irony here is that you of all people know the definition of INVASION better than all - you have so many experiences with it. Does Crimea or Donesk or Kharkov looks like Iraq ,Afghanistan , Libya,Palestine?

Philip Keys You know nothing John Snow!

You got that right, and this is 2022 and the USA remains the masters of global chaos, coups and destruction.

You need to look again now.

You know when you encounter a brainwashed fool if he believes that somehow people can't have other opinions without being influenced by the Kremlin.

@@2_wicked You're both wrong and repeating Kremlin talking points. That is an objective fact. Whether or not you got these misguided thoughts from Kremlin sources or some grifting youtuber regurgitating the lines is irrelevant. Either way, you're displaying lowlife behavior and should be embarrassed you fell for baseless state-media claims... It's pathetic

​@@liberate-america4482 All the brainwashing you were exposed to make you behave like a Pavlov dog. Getting all emotional and repeating the same empty rhetoric is a clear symptom. Maybe sue those who did this to you and get therapy. It hopefully is not too late yet.

@@2_wicked keep pretending 2014 was an American coup. Keep saying the west promised not to ever deal with former Soviet states. You’re a clown. Keep honking like puteeeen wants you to.