Why Did You Write A Book About The Book of Revelation? Dr. Elaine Pagels 

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The further I get away from Christianity, the faster I want to get away.

Not only is the content fabulous... the audio/visual is first rate. Thanks, Derek and Dr. Pagles!

Wow Elaine Pagels’ point about how revelations forms a perspective of us against them and feeds our current political situation was brilliant. Absolutely spot on about how our system of government is about working together and compromise

I fell asleep through the middle of this but Dr Pagels's conclusions blew me away, brilliant and something that everyone with half a brain should hear and contemplate. She has such a warm voice and personality and is a wonderful human being.

Elaine Pagels is outstanding. Many good insights from listening to her discussions.

Brilliant !! The revelations about how the book of revelations has had such dire contemporary, as well as historical consequences, will make me buy Dr. Pagels book !! Your channel is definitely helping the world become a more knowledgeable place, for the better !!! Love your passion, interviewing skills and work !!!

What a great interview. Fully enjoyed her exposition of how the Book of Revelation is used in times of conflict to demonise the enemy, and how this explains its many interpretations throughout history. In Britain its imagery was used by both the Royalists and the Parliamentarians during the English Civil War, and again it was used by the both the Vatican and Napoleon in their struggles in the 18th century , and by the British in their war with Napoleon. I have just ordered my copy!!

Elaine raises a number of important points about the Book of Revelation having to do with the Jewish War (66-72CE) but still clings to the idea that it was written during the reign of Domitian c. 96 CE - but there are a number of internal indicators within the mangl’d Greek text which posit a period of 68/69 CE during the reign of Nero (e.g. chapter 13 with 666 (NRVN QSR) or 616 (NRV QSR) with Gematrial equivalents for the Hebrew Aleph Bet (Aleph = 1, Beth = 2, Gimmel = 3, Daled = 4 etc in a particular series following Rabbinic tradition (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,20,30,49,50,60,70,80,90,100,200,300 & 400 for Tav the last letter). Also in Rev chapter 11:1-3 the 2nd Temple of Herod is clearly still standing ‘but is being occupied currently by the Kittim who shall occupy it for a period of 42 months (3.5 years)’ following the ‘time-two times & half a time’ of Daniel chapter 7 &c. which would also place the date of writing around 68/69 CE... The re-use of OT prophecy (especially tritoIsaiah chapters 60-66, Zechariah (in the 4 horses of the Apocalypse in chapter 6) but many other references in Zechariah through chapter 14, the apocalyptic symbols of Hezekiel (in the merkhava chariot in chapters 1 & 10; the valley of dry bones; the feast of the birds and blood; the eating of the Scroll which tasted sweet then sour etc.) was done because like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Jews of the 1st Century CE believed the ‘age of the prophets’ was over (since the time of Ezra) and that all was left for later generations was to do was to re-interpret Old prophecies in new times (in the Scrolls and in books like ‘Jude’ we hear comments like ‘as it is written in the book of xxx which when interpreted refers to yyy etc. The writer (‘Yohanon’ whoever he was) makes over 150 references to the priestly liturgy of the 2nd Temple meaning he must have come from a Levetical family - and the overarching subject matter is that of Holy War between the Sons of Light v. The Sons of Darkness much like the War Scroll (‘Milkhama’ 1QM) found at Qumran - where Levetical choirs accompany troops on the battlefield (see Isaiah 30:34 = every blow from the right hand of YHWH laid upon his gentile enemies on the battlefield shall be accompanied by the sounds of Harps & Timbrels etc.) with the idea that in the final Holy War against the gentiles YHWH would ‘fight with Yisro’el from Heaven’ (Exod. 14:14)... One cannot separate the contents of the Book of Revelation from the 1st Fail’d Jewish War Against Rome (66-72 CE) where it seems to have been written by an exil’d freedom fighter trying to give hope to Jewish revolutionaries in Palestine while Rome was looking like it was tottering like Babylon (the Jewish year 68/69 saw no less than 4 Emperors in one year during the middle of the Judaean Revolt -Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius & Vespasian- and there is a veil’d reference to this in Rev 17:10 - ‘The 10 horns with 7 heads are 7 kings five of which have already fallen (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius (=Caligula) & Claudius) one is barely standing (Nero disappear’d in June of 68 & it was widely believ’d he had escap’d to Parthia to return with another Army), ‘and the next one will not reign for very long’ Otho reign’d 3 months) etc. so we seem to be dealing with a date 30 years earlier than Domitian (although Christians of Domitian’s time must have clearly seen parallels with Nero) It would be a valuable exercise to read Ms. Massenbyrd-Ford’s critical commentary on Revelation which was written in the late 1960s but makes use of many of these internal indicators & cross references many passages with the Dead Sea Scroll material (which was seal’d in time capsule caves c. June of 68 CE as Roman armies were approaching...)

Great show Derek, she was very impressive!

Making the case for atheist office holders, or at least people that understand that the Bible is not the word of any kind of a god. Pompeo made decisions about the Middle East based on his belief that the second coming any day now and reported to his Evangelical supporters his progress.

This was beyond brilliant. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

She's got some valid points. I will listen to more of her lectures on your channel Derek. As you may know, I am a staunch supporter of the research of Ralph Ellis. Unfortunately, any new research coming from him is at a stand still from what I can tell. I would love to have a continuation of his deeply meticulous research that picks up from the end of his previous research, and follows it all the way to present day. I have yet to find it, and don't know if Ralph has the inclination to go there at this point in his life. Thanks for this Derek and Professor Pagels! Lisa

That interview was so interesting. I hope you keep putting content like this on your channel Derek.

That was some awesomeness right there...

This was a wonderful video. I love her allusions to history and how different people over time used the book’s imagery against their enemies. I loved her big picture outlook about the overall theme of the book. I agree with her. The author transforms Jesus into a cosmic warrior ready for revenge and only war can bring peace.

Revelation always impressed me as a "we got our butts kicked, so.... we will explain it and be sure to include how we didn't really get it wrong, (there's so much more going on and I'll show you how we win ... later)" story telling feeling about it

Really appreciate this video..One of the most informative and interesting video I've seen on this channel.. Professor Elaine Pagels is really inspiring.

Wow what an amazing mind. Derek, thank you so much for the amazing content you continue to bring us. I can barely keep up with everything you put up on RU-vid let alone all the extra stuff I have access to on the Patreon. I have an ever growing list now 50 hours or more of things I "absolutely must" listen to soon over there. Keep it coming, just don't burn yourself out.

Thank you Dr Tabor and Derek. This was awesome. Totally interesting and informative. I’ve bought some of his books based on this.

🙌 been waiting for this one!❤EXCELLENT

Very well done. Excellent video.👍

This was an excellent watch. While she's completely wrong about Hitler not being a Christian - as he was a devout Roman Catholic - the rest of her talk was very enlightening.

This is may favourite so far Derrick. Elaine is a gem. Apocalyptic fundamentalism = dead humans. This was an awesome eye opener. Thanks Elaine and Derrick

A woman of great insight! Love your interviews with Dr. Pagels. Thanks, Derek and Dr. Elaine!

I agree with the speaker, that Revelation can dualize forces rather than unite them. Great point indeed! Personally, I see all the phenomena of Scripture symbolically. Everything is happening within you!

An effusive thank you for so much time connecting with Elaine Pagels. But not for this platform, I would not have come to know an amazing woman who has dedicated her life to discovering something that eludes so many: the TRUTH!

5000 years in the future, pastor preach in the pulpit :"Jesus, Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter" are one and the same !, Hallelujah!"

I love Dr. Pagels. I believe though that the language of Revelation feels closer to 70AD than 20 years after the fact. But I wonder in her research what gives her this idea. I know the gospel of John is said to be 90AD and that this “John” wrote revelation as well (maybe) but I would love to see her findings on the year

Well I'm an atheist, I was against the Iraq War and I was not a fan of Bush (and I'm English so not a US voter) but I don't know that him and his pals using Biblical references is such a big deal. I'm old enough to remember before Christianity had declined so much, went to Church as a kid in the 70s and to older people then, and I daresay Christians now, especially Evangelicals, the Bible was the first place to reach to for a metaphor. Our language is full of them to this day, "take up the mantle", "wars and rumours of wars", "let he who is without sin (cast the first stone)", "she is a Jezebel!", "pass by on the other side" and so on. Whatever we may think of the Bible, Christianity is the philosophical root of Western Culture. So I can't see any more in the Bible quotes relating to the Iraq War than, um, "Christian memes". 666 is the Number Of the Beast. +44 if you're outside the UK.

Dr.Pagels is awsome. I like the Star Wars comparison. We all battle the Dark side and move to the Light. Revalation for me is that battle. I wonder if Dr. Price agrees

Great segment, I would add that David R. Hawkins gives the Book of Revelation a pretty low calibration score on his consciouisness chart of being below 100 on scale of 1- 1,000, since as we note it does not teach the universal values of love, compassion, compromise, resolve, salvation for all......but encourages fear, retribution, violence and mayhem for the wicked and only good news for the so called 'chosen' (add your 'name' or 'group' here) - furthermore its text is subject to interpretations which anyone can use to justify their own wars or violence, and the list goes on.

Talk about revelation, how she gives insight into modern current events , from civil war to Jan 6, amazing interview; great work Derek as always , knowledge is power 🌈🥰

Emperor Domitian was the son of Emperor Vespasian and the younger brother of Emperor Titus. Flavian dynasty.

I downloaded the audible version of this book!!

Why does God nave a favourite nation?

Loved the talk. Thank you.

Elaine makes some very astute observations. There are a few she missed. The 6th seal is critical because it gives a very precise time stamp as follows: On December 21st, 2010, the sixth seal was broken. A magnitude 7.4 earthquake struck the Bonin Islands, in Japan. The solstice metaphorically caused the sun to die; it turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; then the lunar eclipse caused the whole moon to turn blood red. The Ursid Meteor Shower appeared like stars that fell from the sky as figs drop from a tree when shaken by strong storm winds. The last time that a full lunar eclipse happened on the winter solstice was December 21st, 1638, and it won’t occur again until December 21st, 2094, so the Ursid meteor shower coupled with an earthquake on the very same day as the lunar eclipse and winter solstice allowed the prophecy to give you a very precise time stamp, so that you would know that the sixth seal had been broken. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. This is a metaphor drawn from Old Testament prophecy, and it reflects that God’s wrath will cause upheaval and destruction of earthly powers during His final judgment on the inhabitants of this planet.

OMG yes! Just what I wanted in my queue!

The battle between Good and Evil is going on right now...

The Lord provides yet again! Great content - as always!

Who said that religion and mythology aren’t practical subjects? Well, when you have governments making war policy decisions based on religion and mythology there’s nothing more practical and relevant you can know.

LOVED this episode. Super informative. And equally frightening of how much the book of revelation informed the policy of Bush (and undoubted others). And now I've just read yet another by @David Bible below.

Growing up in Church in the 1980s, I was taught that Revelation was about a literal 7 year Tribulation period either before, during, or after The Rapture. An awful time of judgements and tragedy on the earth. The Antichrist would rule & force everyone to wear the mark on their hand or forehead or be arrested and have their heads cut off. I was raised on those 70s/early 80s Thief In The Night Rapture series. Scared me to death as a kid. The Book Of Revelation always soooked me as a young child. I wonder why it almost didn't make the Bible and then did........

I love this video. Dr Pagels does a great job verbally illustrating the world that influenced John, the author of Revelation. Also, she shows how religious leaders have used it throughout history to justify their treatment of their enemies, even in modern times.

Great interview. Questions I was unable to ever ask myself. Why would God a low...to his holy city?..his holy temple?...his holy special, chosen people?...his only beloved child? Unless there is no such thing as a chosen people, or holy land, or all powerful white man who lives in the sky who loves me and is interested in everything I say and do. If there is, turnes out he is just as verbally and physically abusive as my own father was.

Dr Pagels is just absolutely fantastic.

True! Revelation has been used in every war, for both sides, to say that war was the final battle between good and evil. That you must annihilate evil (don't compromise).

Outstanding interview Derek! Oprah Winfrey is looking for a male successor. Martin Luther hoped that Jesus would not return prior to completion of his NT (1522) and OT (1534) translation work, otherwise all of his efforts would have been in vain. Luther clearly believed that he was living in the end times, which almost certainly explains his Jew hatred resulting in the horrible book ‘Concerning the Jews and their lies’ published three years prior to his death. The ‘stubborn’ Jews were simply show stoppers with respect to Jesus’ return (remember Paul’s predictions of a mass conversion of the Jews).

Great conversation. Nice job sir

What a lucid and important message

Elaine's explanation of the Book of Revelation, how it came about, and the attitude and circumstances of John of Patmos is pretty standard, scholarly fare. She, of course, is welcome to her opinion, and she has the academic credentials to back it up; but it's pretty much just educated speculation. In this interview she's not really giving any evidence for her claims other than what seems to her likely to have happened. I wouldn't expect in a short 30 min interview that she would provide much evidence, so that's not much of a concern. However, and for example, when she talks about the Twelve Headed Beast and says it correlates directly with the emperors of Rome from Augustus to Domitian and that it was a monstrous and diabolical enemy of all Jews, that's certainly mainstream opinion based on common sense. Certainly, what else could the Beast be? But she might have pointed out that it was not always the case that Jews and Rome were enemies. In 151 BCE, the Jewish and Roman states signed a treaty. From First Maccabees, chapter 8: "May all go well with the Romans and with the nation of the Jews at sea and on land forever, and may sword and enemy be far from them. If war comes first to Rome or to any of their allies in all their dominion, the nation of the Jews shall act as their allies wholeheartedly, as the occasion may indicate to them." This treaty was in recognition of the help Rome had given the new Jewish state by defeating its enemy, Antiochus IV. Of course, friends don't necessarily stay friends forever. But Jews not in Judea (those part of the Diaspora) may have have had a very different opinion of Rome than John of Patmos. Many Jews at the time thought that Jerusalem had been taken over by radicals and that Rome had acted reasonably by crushing them. As I continued to listen to Elaine speak, I thought it was extremely interesting how she brought George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld into the discussion. Yes, Revelation is a book for all time -- you can use it whenever you see yourself as the good guy battling evil -- it's very childlike and simplistic in that way. And yes, it really is troubling that thousands of people died because George Bush carried his born-again beliefs into the White House with him. But it's not just Bush: For 2000 yrs there has been an uninterrupted chain of horror inflicted on Europe by the Church of Rome and its Protestant offspring ... culminating in the 30 Years War in Germany in which perhaps half the population became a blood sacrifice on the altar of idiocy. [German population in 1500 was about 15 million. Somewhere between 4 and 8 million people died in the war.]

A movie should be made based on Revelation. It would be epic given LOTR special effects.

I believe the book of revelation was written by Rome to venerate another conquest. It’s a mythological bragging story. Jesus Christ was created by Rome to mythologize Titus Flavius. Just a thought…

Yaaassss! My favourite scholar!

Reading her book now. Solid stuff! Thanks! 🤙

So if John was able to see the future of what was to come, why didn’t he see anything regarding future technology? What in the entire Bible adds to technology or civilization?

This is the first thing that makes sense! I Never heard anyone say John was a Jew fleeing the destruction of the Second Temple.

That was fascinating.

I would not call Patmos right next door to Ephesus. The distance is 60 miles (96.5 kilometers) between the two places. Ephesus is located in modern day Turkey while Patmos is an island in the Aegean Sea that is 40 miles (64.4 kilometers) and falls under Greek rule.

Thank you❤❤

does anyone know how i confirm that the Bush memo's had these Reverlations quotes on them?

Great interview

Adam wields the fiery sword, Noah treads the winepress, Joshua leads them, Esau lives by the sword... there are only so many components to the Bible. The stories repeat in a different form. 'He was counted among the wicked'; ... "Lord, look, there are two swords here." (Luk 22:37-38 NABO) Then I saw another beast come up out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb's but spoke like a dragon. (Rev 13:11 NABO) There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished! (Luk 12:50 NABO) I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! (Luk 12:49 NABO) it is better to marry than to be on fire (1Co 7:9 NABO) For by my wrath a fire is enkindled that shall rage to the depths of the nether world (Deu 32:22 NABO) Warning of the impending Day of the Lord, he was swallowed by the Beast out of the Sea and spewed out upon the shore as the Beast out of the Earth, as the sun beat down upon his head and a burning east wind began the Way of the Lord in the Desert. The way of the Lord in the desert needs to be put into context with the previous passage: (Joshua) The First Beast - Day of the Lord - Sacrifice - Indeed, she has received from the hand of the LORD double for all her sins. (Moses) The Second Beast - Way of the Lord - Resurrection - Make straight in the wasteland a highway for our God! (Isa 40:2-3 NABO) Just as it is appointed that human beings die - be judged - appear a second time, (so also Christ) Heb 9:27-28 …as the (Red) Dragon (Demon Sin) stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. (Rev 12:4 NABO) the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty (Rev 1:8 NABO) The beast that you saw existed once but now exists no longer. It will come up from the abyss and is headed for destruction. (Rev 17:8 NABO) We saw his star (of Bethlehem) at its rising (Mat 2:2 NABO) up from the abyss (Rev 17:8 NABO) The star was called "Wormwood” (Rev 8:11 NABO) It was given the key for the passage to the abyss. (Rev 9:1 NABO) I hold the keys to death and the netherworld. (Rev 1:18 NABO) the bars of the nether world (Abyss) were closing behind me forever (Jon 2:7 NABO) Who will go down into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead) (Rom 10:7 NABO) As the Lawless One, with all the power, signs, and wonders at the disposal of falsehood, and seeming to be a part of the workings of Satan, 2Thess 2:9-11, he leads them astray, as if with a bridle in the jaw of the people, on the day of the great slaughter, Is 30:25-28, having been given the power and rule, along with great authority of The Dragon as the First Beast/ Red Dragon, Rv 13:2, with seven heads and ten horns, Rv 12:3. Just as it is appointed that human beings die - be judged - appear a second time, (so also Christ) Heb 9:27-28 …as the (Red) Dragon (Demon Sin) stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. (Rev 12:4 NABO) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming, (2Th 2:8 NABO) when he rises against the prince of princes, he shall be broken without a hand being raised. (Dan 8:25 NABO) If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master (Gen 4:7 NABO) Who, robed in splendor, judges nations, crushes heads across the wide earth, Who drinks from the brook by the wayside and thus holds high the head. (Psa 110:6-7 NABO)

She is someone that sees the pattern. People stuck in New Testament mentality are missing the whole pattern to writing and inspiration. Everything written in the New Testament can be found in the old…there is nothing new, Jesus Christ yesterday today and forever. I once went through the book of revelations up to chapter 12 before I got bored and cross referenced the new with the old. I saw verses from Isaiah Ezekiel Jeremiah and I saw in Paul’s letters there was a breakdown of all the churches mentioned, and the beast and and all that imagery can be found in the Old Testament and even in job and….it’s constantly going back and forth back and forth until you complete the puzzle, it’s a wonderful puzzle once you see the pattern. But man is to focused on fear and doom and gloom to appreciate the artistic value of the great work the bible is.

And to this day people want "Revelations" to be me, me, me. It's all about us and our nations. Same hubris that made a sun god into The Lord of the younger bible writings.

It's saying that mental illness and drug use/abuse isn't just a modern issue.

Bowls and trumpets and creatures oh my.

I’m surprised the author didn’t accept the scholarship that shows Revelation was written earlier. She’s off to a bad start right away, and that affects interpretation. John was obviously not so incensed against the Roman Empire as he was against the unbelieving Jews; calling them the synagogue of Satan and representing Jerusalem as the great whore who secretly pulled the political strings of nations. Academics have to soft peddle this aspect to avoid offending their Jewish peers. Paul and even John endorsed some views which today would be considered Anti-Semitic.

I may just add that in setting up a story or a forecast or a prophesy story, one needs to show first that there is also a great need for the oppressed for deliverance. By portraying an end world scenario where earthquake tectonic enough to cause large masses to heave globally, it will cause the reader to be concerned not only about his local area but around the globe as well. In this setup the coming of a savior becomes very much needed and timely....sort of a dramatic entrance or precipice of destruction avoidance in the last minute.

25:49 common now in video titles using words crushed, destroyed (any w/ opposing or diff views). Us vs them. Right vs wrong. No dialogue or open respectful debate. I often don’t watch those videos.

I doubt the christians were extremely saddened by the temple's destruction (lack of Temple-mourning was part of what differentiated the christian communities from mainstream Jews post 70AD), albeit Rome remained the bad guy. Revelation seems more preoccupied with persecution of Christian communities than mourning the destruction of a temple they believed to have deserved destruction & judgement (like the historical Jeremiah believed about the 1st temple)

"Horrible insect-like creatures that appeared in Star Wars III".... Do you think she meant the geonosians?

Didn't know Martin Luther said that about Revelation.

Awesome Video

when people die of big and horrendous explosions, they do not have time to be dying or to curse anything. The one thing one might experience in an explosion is a big flash of light and then nothing.

Dr. Elaine Pagels is a terrific narrator. My problems is that I never know if she talks about results of critical historical research, or telling nice stories for masses. Like with John which "saw Jerusalem destroyed" and "who read Mark gospel". ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1EFpEqLE9kE.html I thought that scholars now date Mark after Jewish war and the temple destruction. It's very tempting to create such a narrative for John. Nice story indeed.

The top Phd professors of the origins of religions, are the only ones that really understand about the historical evolution of religion. Business is business. Don't take it personally. Educating your own self about the religious issue.. Is the only way to free your own self.

We were in Afghanistan in 2001. Iraq in 2003, and no one claimed the re-invasion of Iraq had anything to do with Al Qaeda.

I ❤ Elaine

This woman clearly doesn't realise the real purpose of 911.

From the Astrological perspective. If you compare Revelation 13 to the Northern Constellations. Dragon -Draco, leopard - lynx, bear (Ursula Major/Minor), Lion (Leo) all grouped together. 666 is also reference to the magic square of the sun (you can look up this little math problem). The square sum is 666. The zodiac sign ruled by the sun is Leo - The Beast. The alchemical metal associated with the sun is gold. If you look up the other 666 reference you will find Sol-omon, and 666 talents of gold.

We'll all find out when we die

Jordan Maxwell said that the book of Revelations were written around 500 yrs before the Christ.

Is there evidence that John was learned

Thanks

It is a false prophecy that has caused more harm than anything ever written. It makes Christianity from a faith of enlightenment into an adversarial conquest-oriented faith.

Interesting. I would like to have challenged her casual aside about Hitler not being a Christian.

"Hitler, though not a Christian..." that's a bit sus. Considering he wanted to removed the Jewish taint from Christendom, and was replacing it with romanticized Germanic themes; X to doubt that proclamation

Why write a book about a book. Money!

Thank you for not adding a superfluous "s" on the end of Revelation--can't stand it when people say the "Book of Revelations". As a fundamentalist Christian who read every book of the Bible many times, starting as a very young child, even I as a child knew how it is spelled.

Was the Book of Revelations a warning of was going to happen that we could heed the warning and change that , or was it a prophecy about what is going to happen and nothing we can do about it when it happens just pick a side to be on and that will work for or against you in the aftermath

12:16 Rev 17:10 , 7 kings: 5 fallen (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius) 1 is (Nero) and one yet to come.

Bush did say that he prayed and God agreed with him to attack Iraq

I like Bart Ehrmans definition to the Gospels. Highly educated Greek writers.

It's a *spiritual* document: all spirituality is figurative. ... except yoga.

She said many nice and interesting things. Things that they should be part of everybody’s research but everybody’s research should not be affected but what she said. My second input is, in the end she made a very touching democratic proposition which is very nice, but it’s an utopia. In many situation what she proposed is feasible, but in other situations you cannot do that. As an example political Islam. Political Islam want you to sit in the negotiation table so they can turn your policy a little bit in their favor. And after a little while they want you to sit again to turn again a little bit your policy in their favor. And they will do this on and on until they have full control and your democratic freedom for all people voice for everyone way of life has gone to the trash.

as regards the idea that the bad side/ those that are with the seven heads of a monster, cannot be negotiated with and had to be dealt with and annihilated, this reminds of when YHWH had castigated Abraham for not dealing with women and children of his opponents so Abraham had to send his troops once more to finish the job.

Remarkable!

Derek if you were a fundamental Christian today and not an atheist or agnostic which I'm not sure which one you are. My question is which eschatology would be the position you would hold to If you read the bible only as an ancient novel?