Were The Gospels Really Written By Followers Who Knew Jesus? Dr. Elaine Pagels 

I remember as an evangelical thinking Dr. Pagels was "just a liberal scholar" and so was obviously wrong. Because smart-seeming evangelical scholars told me so. What an insular little world I was in, shielded from the findings and challenges of real scholarship without even realizing it :(

I am very thankful for Dr. Elaine Pagels.

One learns that being a favorite of Rome, like Christianity was in the 4th century, it led to a change in power and status regarding the church. I agree. Suddenly, the bishops of the churches became powerful, rich, and some quite dictatorial. Suddenly the church became the very thing it was told not to become, and by Jesus himself. The gospels make that quite clear.

This woman is so knowledgeable.

So enlightening. You really filled in some blanks for me, Dr Pagels

Can we really "know" what happened to Peter and Paul based on church traditions written a century later? Even Acts contradicts Paul's own accounts of his conversion and career. Why would even later stories be any more reliable?

I love this lady!!!

Legend 👉 Dr Elaine Pagels 👈

Love Dr Pagels ❤️ Have read a couple of her books and my eyes were opened to what she talks about in this video regarding the early church and persecution of Christians. Also early church leaders and development. Highly recommend her books.

Love Dr Pagels !

Ironic that the Church persecuted and tortured people for witchcraft when they themselves were persecuted and tortured by the Romans for being Christian.

Wow! Elaine Pagels evoked sympathy in me for Irenaeus.

The cartoon at the intro is great!, I love when Anubis is at the head of the pack of gods and barges in holding the scroll for Derek to read, he flipped the script on him allright! 😂😂😂

The interesting thing was no one know who is Matthew, Peter, Mark and John. None of them were the disciples

Those four gospels those other 50-plus gospels apparently didn't count. Well at least the some people. The Shepherd of Hermas was said to be popular.

Thank you Dr Pagels and thank you Derek

I remember asking a professor in college who was engaging in an apology about how the inquisition wasn't that bad how many professors he thought that the administration would have to kill if they decided that they wanted to enforce an orthodoxy. He didn't really like that question very much.

Most excellent as always, thank you!

This is the reason why religion should be outlawed.

Great video, but I'm curious why Dr Pagels spoke so confidently about the deaths of Peter, Paul, and James. Yes there are traditions that say that they died in that way but there are other traditions that say otherwise, and AFAIK nothing well attested at all. Why are those traditions what probably happened?

This is a very interesting video. It's so important to remember, when talking about other issues and early Christian communities, that the 4 gospels we now think of were just 4 among many. In retrospect we weight them more strongly than would many of the people of the 2nd century.

It's clearly fantasy literature and satire.

She says she disagrees with Candida Moss's documented scholarship on persecution yet seems to agree with her that persecution was sporadic and local, aside from agreeing with traditional apostolic martyrdom tales. Hmmmmm.....

In the Greek Codex Siniaticus the four gospels was changed in the KJV, and others how do you know if any if the first codexes state the differences. How can we see the others as nothing but wrong. Too many errors in the Gospels and the Bible

The Gospel of Mark, as we have it today, is an alteration and expansion of an original text ...which was the script of a play. The Greek used in this play is more sophisticated than that used by the person who altered the text ... who didn't understand some of the subtleties of the original and was hostile towards its storyline ... because the central character was depicted as being an Hellenistic KIng of the Jews. The play was written around the time of the Bar Kochba revolt (131-135 AD) ... but set a hundred years earlier. Simon of Cyrene is meant to be understood as being Simon Bar Kochba, the leader of the revolt ... who was declared to be the Messiah by the Jewish priesthood. In the original text it was Simon who was crucified (why Cyrene? This is designed to invoke memories of the Kitos revolt by the Jews of Cyrene (105 AD) which resulted in the massacre of tens of thousands Romans and Greeks). A further complication with the text we have today is that it was a some point damaged ... cut up ... and later inaccurately reassembled by someone unfamiliar with the details of the text. As for Luke's Gospel ... I reckon that Theophilus is Theophilus of Antioch. ... and as for the Mythical founder of the Catholic church ... SIMWN PETROS anagrams to MORTWS PENIS (Latin Mortuus penis, "Dead penis") Finally, the King of the Jews character in the original play was not called Jesus (IESOUS CHRISTOS can also be anagrammed ... to OSIRIS SET CHOUS (Chous, "A measure of capacity equal to 12 cups")

Very interesting and impressive person, Dr. Pagels, and her history and break down of the sects and Thomas. Thank you for posting this interview!

I would love to know what sources are being used here to make statements like the early Christian Church was formed around the canon of gospels or that there was widespread knowledge of persecutions, or that persecutions were even to the point where widespread knowledge was possible. Those statements seem to fly in the face of all the scholarship I have seen and sound more like apologetics than anything else. Maybe I just misunderstood.

Bishop Marcion of Sinope c. 160 CE was the first to collect a ‘canon of scripture’ which to his mind meant Luke chapters 3 through 24 & pieces of Acts with omissions of references to the Old Testament -along with the letters ascribed to ‘Paul’ his theological hero … Bishop Iranaeus of Lyons as a young disciple of old Polycarp who himself was a very young disciple of the aged (90-year old) John the Elder (whoever he was, possibly one of the 70?) whom people believed actually knew R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (& ecoded the physical age of ‘Jesus’ as 48 years old at his execution, cf. John 2:21) had himself believ’d he had the authority to determine ‘which gospels were in’ (i.e. ‘fit to be read aloud in the church services’) and which gospels (e.g. the sayings Gospel of Thomas or the Gosprl of Phillip etc.) were to be considered ‘heretical’ [an odd word, deriving from the Greek ‘hairetikos’ = ‘able to make one’s own choice’] … Not enough weight is given in these 30,000 foot lay-discussions on YT ‘for the masses’ to the process of oral tradition & transmission of narrative in the first century (less than 10% of people in the Roman Empire could read Greek and/or Latin - hence the need to ‘read the gospels and books like ‘Revelation’ aloud in the churches’) - Oral tradition would account for a great deal of what we find in Gospels such as ‘Mark’ with its thuggy-Greek with its decided Aramaic syntax - which led bishops like Papias c. 95 CE to declare that ‘Peter us’d John-Mark as his translator & after the former’s death in Rome collected & edited his notes from Peter’s sermons including only such pericopai he believ’d was useful for preaching purposes’ That might also account for the oral-tradition technique of ‘catch words’ where any significant word would link discrete & disparate sayings put into the mouth of a Greek-speaking Jesus (see the catch word ‘salt’ which link’d 3 separate unrelated sayings on salt in Mark chapter 9:50-52 &c. Even tho’ the original ‘Aramaic spoken gospel’ of the actual followers of Jesus never wrote anything down as far as we know except perhaps ‘the replacement disciple of Yehudah bar Shimeon (ish keryota, ‘the man who handed him over’) known as ‘Matathiah’ chosen by raised finger-lots in Acts chapter 1 ‘collected the LOGIA of THE LORD in Hebrew letters & ev’ryone had to interpret them as best they could …’ Logia (‘oracles’) could refer to a specific subset of sayings of Jesus say about ‘the End’ or his words (which in Greek would be LOGOI) in general or could also refer to ‘Old Testament prophetic oracles to be fulfilled by the Messiah’ = which might account for such phrases in ‘Matathiah’s Gospel as ‘this was done in order to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet so-and-so’ … What we probably have in the 3 synoptic canonical Greek gospels which borrow heavily from Mark & Qvelle as well as from their own ‘Sondergut’ source material much of which might have been oral in nature, is a combination of ‘oral memory’ and written sayings & messianic fulfillment collections in Greek set in writing AFTER Aramaic ceased to be needed after the First Fail’d Jewish War against Rome (66-74 CE) when Aramaic speakers were mostly wip’d out and the surviving Diaspora synagogues & Christian ‘ekklesiai’ (‘assemblies’) spread out in places like the eastern coast of Spain, in Italy, in Greece, in what to-day is ‘Turkey’ and Alexandria in Egypt all us’d Greek as their common lingua franca… So…in summation, the 4 canonical Greek gospels (that were only much later officially canonized by the late 5th century CE) are a translation hotchpotch from oral & written sources which places them at least 2-steps away from eyewitness accounts… Even the 4th gospel which claims a certain scene at the end came from an eyewitness, it does add the revealing phrase (‘and WE know that HIS testimony is reliable’ cf John 21:24) which begs the question of exactly to whom these pronouns belong - I.e. who is WE and who is HE !!

brilliant ~~~ its about emergence ~~ understanding ~~ Irenaeus was a Greek bishop noted for his role in guiding and expanding Christian communities in the southern regions of present-day France and, more widely, for the development of Christian theology by combating heterodox or Gnostic interpretations of Scripture as heresy and defining proto-orthodoxy

just started this channel few months ago, interesting. Thank you

We do not know Peter and Paul were executed. That is “tradition.”

Nobody in the Bible had a bible

Are the deaths of the apostles through crucifixion and decapitation facts, or legends? What do we actually know about them? Why aren’t there any biographies about them?

While Irenaeus looks like he was making a power play with his simple dogma and hierarchical organization, he was also protecting his flock from the predations of the clergy. Read Apuleius and you find that it basically required all your money (even if you were wealthy) to be read into the mysteries. Keeping it simple was a good rule, though even agreeing on a creed was difficult.

Can we not call Gaulish some weird barbarian language, le do thoil? And holup... we "know" Paul was beheaded? We "know" Peter was crucified? You are asking a lot from some very late, highly mythologized, non-canonical works.

At the end she talks about the death of Paul and Peter, and says; we know. How does she know how they died? All we know is that the church claimed the way they died. But to say that we know, I think is not a true statement.

I wish that was happening today.

Did the "4 corners of the universe" and "4 principal winds" numeric significance also feed into the use of the Mesopotamian tetramorph (man+bull+lion+eagle) symbolism used for each of the gospels?

I enjoyed this very much, but I wonder if we can really know what happened to Peter, Paul, and James. Dr. Carrier has said we have no real good evidence about the supposed martyrdoms of the Apostles. Hmm…🧐

There is something which does not convince me. When groups are persecuted, then you might expect two reactions: - members would go into hiding - members would appeal to stick together and lay to rest differences. So why does Irenaeus create the divide between the canonical and the non-canonical? btw another title would have been appropriate.

The vast majority of Christians are unaware of the history of their own religion. They know the Bible stories, as taught to kids in Sunday school and they know martyrs were fed to the lions but that's it. They do not know that the gospels were four among many or that we cannot tell who wrote them. They do not know that the four were chosen by one man for spurious reasons or that the canon was selected by committee. Christians, like the followers of other religions, think they are doing God's will but, in reality, they are obeying laws and following legends laid down by men. And all of it based upon belief in a concept that has never been demonstrated to be factual.

Praise Jesus, he is the savior of all mankind

The number 4 is so arbitrary. The numbers 3, 7, 10, 40 all have common biblical and Greek world references as well. He could've easily said there should be 7 gospels because the world was created in 7 days. Or 3 gospels because jesus rose in 3 days. The reasoning for 4 is dumb or suspicious at best

Fantastic way of explaining it in plain English, nothing fancy.

Been waiting on a new vid. let's go

From my recollection the Counsel of Nicea did not produce a lidt of canonical books that make up the Bible. That was never officially decided. It was only really solidified upon the invention of the printing press. I'm pretty sure this is substantiated by Bruce Metzger. Correct me if I'm wrong.

9:30 Not only organizing, but also getting rid of any competition.

It makes sense that some of the Romans saw christians as traitors or were suspicious of them, if christians were running around saying that israel is the chosen nation and one day the Messiah/Christ/King of israel (who they believe is Jesus, born in Nazareth/Bethlehem/wherever in Israel) will rule the world from Jerusalem.

In french they say "La France, la fille ainée de l'église" "France is the elder daughter of the church". Merci ;-)

Very interesting ❤❤

Modern historians estimate that during this period, known as the Diocletianic or Great Persecution and extending several years beyond the reign of Diocletian, as many as 3,000−3,500 Christians were executed under the authority of Imperial edicts. per Wiki

I don't understand why Jesus did not write down his teachings on parchment like other famous religious leaders, or dictate his words to his biographers instead of leaving it to his followers who could not agree on important details. Is this how an impeccable god who has the power of telepathy decides to communicate with his own creations? This is not how I would do it.

More!

How does Elaine know how Peter Paul and James were killed? (Or that they were killed for their faith, as she appears to be saying.)

Paul did to jewish religion what joseph smith did the christianity. Its all silly

Can you tell me where it is recorded that Peter and Paul we executed for being christian ? If it was in 64 ad then Nero was trying to cover up the fire in rome but Tacitus says some were put to death for their hatred of mankind not because of their faith.

Listening to the history of persecution is really scary. I feel pity for those early Christians.

I am positive Dr. Pagels is right because she went to an ivy league school and taught at an ivy league school.

Great

I wonder why the Gnostic Gospels weren't accepted into the Cannon. It amazes me, Christians who accept only the 66 books are so sure they're right and have the correct Bible, and then Christians who accept the other books are so sure they're right with their other Gospels in their Bibles.....

"Magic mirror on the wall whose the loveliest one of all! Heil Mary full of grace Sica sicalorum, bull!

Ted sphinx mystery man! I quote Judas Iscariot " Judas says to Christ I know where you're from, you are From the Immortal realm of Barbelos" there is only one Immortal realm on earth. Flesh and blood Immortal beings highly intelligent from their planet Nibiru, called Anunnaki. Christ is a decendent of an Anunnaki. Many men wrote parts of scripture but the Anunnaki who created the priesthood dictated in part to help set up Christianity then returned to their planet Nibiru.

Yes!

According to Billy Carson @ 4 Bidden Knowledge No !

We know how "oral teachings" are : Everyone adds something.

It's way past time our scholars stop trusting received knowledge and look critically at things that have been taken for granted for 100s of years. 12:35 Marcus Aurelius and the martyring of Christians - This is not my area of expertise but I'm not ignorant either. I think this statement by Dr. Pagels is possibly very much an exaggeration (although she may be voicing the consensus view) and that this bit of history needs to be looked at more critically. In particular, we need to look at what sources we have stating the pervasive martyrdom of Christians during Aurelius' reign and the extent of his involvement. Right now I'm reading an article by Donald Robertson called, "Did Marcus Aurelius Persecute the Christians?". Sorry I can't post a link or YT will block my comment. He states that the only evidence we have for this is material written by Eusebius, a Christian who lived over 100 years after the time these events would have taken place. I'd like to know what other evidence exists for these claims of Christian persecution during Aurelius' reign. I'm not convinced either way but if the _only_ evidence are the words of an important Christian leader with an agenda, writing a century after the "fact", then I'm skeptical. Robertson points out that Iranaeus himself makes no mention of these persecutions in his own writings, which is at odds with Dr. Pagels suggestion he was likely motivated by fear from this very persecution. Iranaeus even writes, "The Romans have given the world peace, and we [Christians] travel without fear along the roads and across the sea wherever we will.” (Against Heresies, Book IV, Chapter 30, Sentence 3) Tertullian, who also lived at the time and place of the supposed persecutions, makes no mention of them either.

❤

I just heard Bishop Athanasios was a catholic priest. In his era was not Catholics and Orthodox etc etc. , there were only Christians.

I have a problem with this because he work for them and he realize you make more money buy them staying alive then being killed lol

Jews wrote the gospels, trying to fulfill Midrashic texts and prophetic stories about their Messiah, and about how the Nations will become god fearing Noahides. And because they couldn’t overthrow Rome by force, they used literary subversion…

They certainly were.

can someone give me a TLTR version?

I would like to know more about the Gospel of Q and to what extent additions were made to the Jesus stories that are considered "canon". It seems to me that portions were added, embellished, to appeal to different segments of society, so they could identify with the core message. There is also the myth that the Magi were there just after Jesus birth and not some time, perhaps years, later.

Can somebody please tell me what is the name of the intro song?

Were the Gospels written by followers who knew Jesus? Of course not. If they were, there'd be no mention of miracles in any of the Gospels, because miracles are fairy tales. This is not to say that miracles never happen, but for most they're surprising coincidences, placebo effects, and the like that in the end have natural explanations. The Catholic Church is actually rather honest about it nowadays and has an office that investigates, scientifically and forensically, such matters. Of course, being a church, they don't question the biblical miracles, not in public anyway.

Dr Elaine seems to think that the persecution is real, though sporadic. I am not sure how should I label the Christians then? Courageous? Or foolish?

0:40 the gospels not being written by people who knew Jesus makes it, if anything, *less* likely that the gnostics had the more accurate teaching of Jesus, because the gnostic gospels were written even later than the canonical gospels (which were not early).

Putting aside that Elaine appears to contradict herself concerning persecution of christians. It would be great if she could share this new evidence that establishes the new Historical Fact of the executions of Peter and Paul. Was Paul's execution after he retired to Spain? She should also share her evidence with Roman scholars concerning Gladiator fights to the death being the normal outcome.

answer:it's a trick question, because its not relevant to anything in any context that existed in the alleged lifetime of the alleged Jew, which Roman Emperors turned into the central deity figure of their new Imperialistic vehicle: Religion.

This certainly, puts an interesting spin on why the Gnostic Gospels were not officially, accepted. Sickening how when the church gained the power they began doing the very same things that used to be done to them. Clearly, they learned absolutely, nothing. Also; utterly, repulsive as to what constituted "entertainment" in ancient times.

Rome just wont die.

Only four corners to the universe? Maybe in Flatland.

So, were the Gospels written by people who knew Jesus? Stay tuned! Probably not. Unless they were very old when they wrote them.

The title doesn't match the content. 🙂

Looking at the comments on your videos lately. Interesting variety of extremists. Just proves we are tribal. I don’t suppose any reconciliation is possible, is there?

The truth is that Irenaeus knew full well that there were only four authentic gospels written by apostles or direct disciples of apostles. Irenaeus said that 'Matthew wrote his gospel while Peter and Paul went to Rome to preach the gospel there. After their deaths as martyrs Mark wrote down the teachings of his master St Peter and Luke wrote down the teachings of his master St Paul. St John wrote his own gospel many years later.' Who was Irenaeus? He was a disciple of St Polycarp as Pagels says. But who was St Polycarp? St Polycarp was a disciple of St John the Apostle himself. You cannot get more authentic than that, whatever this modern American scholar says to the contrary. And if you read 'The Gnostic Gospels' for yourself, you will see that she admits that they are by anonymous authors 'channelling' various apostles and making them say things that are directly contrary to the four genuine gospels that Irenaeus was defending.

Logically unacceptable reasoning. There is not a single mention of the Gospel writers by anyone prior to 70. It's obvious the Gospel writers did according to Rome's orders, they spoke no Hebrew, and failed to mention Caligula in 37 who told the Jews: "So you are the only people who reject my divinity!" - which the Jews bravely rejected. As if that was not relevant.

I was given a mind that corrects me, it tells me Jesus did not exist, paul did not write those letters, I am the Great Mind

Shes whicked smart.

She is credulous

Titus was the Chrestus author of All biblical scripture, Jesus just means saviour in Greek, Titus called all rebellious leaders Jesus, satire, why all the Gospels contradict each other, different Jesus's Titus slaughtered, Mary was what the Romans called all rebellious women, Magdala was a town near Galilee Titus calling Jesus Lucifer's mum an old slapper, satire

Did you notice that the Professor Pagels did not even attempt to answer the question of who wrote the gospels. How can someone so indoctrinated and deluded also claim a title meant to signify intellect and the search of truth.i

The title doesn’t really fit the content of the video, does it? The authorship of the gospels just gets a passing mention but the main focus is some aspects of early Christianity. Bad Derek! ;)

The real story actually includes Judah Ha'Nasi 😉

May God listen to your prayers and help you fulfill them. Amen!

You're totally wrong because all the four gospel that Jesus claimed to be God. Jesus claimed that He is the LORD of the Sabbath (Matthew 12 :8 & Luke 6 :5). Only God alone is the LORD of the Sabbath and the Author of the law of the Sabbath, no one else. So Jesus claimed that He is the LORD of the Sabbath if He is not God? Jesus said, For no one who does a miracle IN MY NAME can in the moment say anything bad about Me (Mark 9 :39). Only God alone can give miracle, no other. So why Jesus claimed that He can give miracle if He is not God? Jesus said, Before Abraham was I Am (John 8 :58). And Jesus said, Abraham was greatly rejoiced to see My day (John 8 :56). And Jesus said, Anyone who has seen Me, has seen the Father (John 14 :9). Because Jesus said, The one who looks at Me is seeing the one who sent Me (John 12 :45). For I (Jesus) and The Father (Spirit) are one (John 10 :30).

Who are greek makin up ,they didnt have nothin to do ,that why they confused the written of hebrew an araimaic

How do we really know she knows what shes talking about. This whole god thing is a bunch of nonsense.

😂😂😂

....and what is soooo wrong with defending the faith... of course what they did was the obvious things to defend real faith...... faith and god are not supermarkets where you accept everything to please evryone...... faith is something that has to be pure