Been a life long member. I finally left because the amount of information became so overwhelming that the church denied truths they knew to be truths and excommunicated members for revealing them anyway. Having been lied to I came to feel that the church left me. As I continued to attend church l found it impossible to listen to the dissemination of church sponsored false teachings. I couldn’t attend church without fighting the urge to set the record straight. I also realized that I would come home heart sick and often angered because free speech is equal to social suicide in the church.
TR Snomis I am kinda of in the same boat. I lost my faith at age 50 due to an in-depth study of the life of Joseph Smith and church history. I still continued activity for 10 years. I could no longer stay and listen to doctrines and concepts that I knew to be false. I came to reject all religion in general. I am not an atheist but am done with most traditional concepts and dogma.
I continue to attend church and have a strong assurance that Joseph Smith is a Prophet and the Book of Mormon is revealed scripture. And when anyone disseminates or brings up false teachings I have no hesitation to call it out as false or say "that is an opinion and is not God revealed Doctrine". I also know that we live in an imperfect world with imperfect people even in top leadership positions of the Church. God does what he can with all of us as sinners. I wish you well in your search for a personal foundation, which I think can only come from your personal relationship with God and your own personal search.
Maybe because we claim so much - one true church, prophets and apostles that talk for and to god, new scripture translated by miraculous means, new and eternal ordinances necessary for salvation and exaltation, and literal scripture that absolutely represents history. Such huge claims and nothing to back them up but a warm feeling in your heart.
Why? Here's one thing. I'm interested in the history of pre Columbus Americas and learned that the people had no wheels, no cattle, no steel, no chariots, no swords, no honey bees, etc. etc. At the same time, I was reading the BofM and I had to ask - which is more believable? Science? Or a book written in the early 19th century by a man who couldn't imagine a world without horses and wagons? Where are the remains of the millions of people who were killed in these massive wars? If Lehi and his family were Jews why didn't they observe Talmudic laws? That was the start. Then it was the Book of Abraham. Then polygamy and JS's obvious womanizing. Then that god commanded the church build a mansion for JS and his family in Nauvoo. Once the avalanche begins, you can't stop it.
kathynyny, I really relate to what you're saying, and I've been through a similar experience. As you say, "avalanche" is a perfect word for it, since you can't stop it and it just seems to keep getting bigger. In the past few months as I've thought about this I realized I was making an underlying assumption that the "should I leave the church" and "is the Book of Mormon a historical document" were the same question. Same thing with "should I leave the Church" and "was Joseph Smith a (fill in the blank with fraud, liar, womanizer, etc)" and so on. I now think that (for me, and I can't impose my journey on anyone else) those things are not necessarily the same question, and could have different answers. I believe that the connections I've felt with God in the Church are genuine, regardless of what the answers to those difficult questions are. And I think for many, despite the answers, the Church offers a valid religion. In other words, it serves what to me is the purpose that religion should serve -- connecting us to and encouraging us to reflect a love that falls outside our natural inclinations. Much love to you and best of luck in your journey. ❤️
Tim Chaves Staying in the church for social reasons is fine and it’s the right decision for many people. The cost of leaving can be high - marriage, extended family, job, standing in a tight knit community. Anyone who can see that JS was a fraud, liar, womanizer must also see that the church is built on fraud and deceit and cannot be the one and only vehicle to the celestial kingdom. If that’s the case, what’s the point? If we can shelve the myriad historical facts, there are plenty of problems with the recent and current leadership. We’re to believe that once a prophet has spoken the debate is over? Which prophet? When? Believe this prophet and disregard what those past prophets said (which includes pretty much everything BY said). We’re to believe that an all loving god segregates and shuns some of his beloved creation while piling ‘blessings’ on the heads of those who happen to fit into the church’s paradigm? We’re to believe an all knowing god abruptly changes his mind? Oh he’s testing our faithfulness. Nope. I don’t see any prophesying going on. I see small businesses in SLC bulldozed to make room for a shiny - I might even say worldly - $2 billion great and spacious building. I see banners near temple square with women wearing strapless dresses, holding glasses of champagne enticing us to shop there. I too had powerful spiritual experiences when I was active. I still do. The church is not the only way we can connect with the divine. We don’t need the ‘priesthood ‘ or rites and ritual to have a relationship with the divine or to get entree into a specially reserved heaven. We can even go to the Wilkinson Center, enjoy a tall frosty Coke and god still loves us unconditionally. I’m happier, more generous, more loving, more energetic, more enchanted with this world and its possibilities than I could’ve imagined a few years ago. I’ve opened mental space by not spending energy attempting to reconcile the irreconcilable. I don’t have to pretend to believe obvious ongoing deceit. Keep the faith, man.
I was raised in the church I was brought with the belief that Joseph Smith was a martyr and a hero, Prophet, the greatest religious holy man since Jesus. At age age 50 after a lot of study my world view was turned on it’s side. And an overwhelming avalanche of historical facts and my shelf broke. I was left with the realization that I had been lied to all my life by those I trusted the most, that the historical Joseph Smith was a womanizing villain and fraud. Upon a lot reflection I realized that most people’s to a belief system is based on human emotion. So whether your Christian, Buddhist, Muslim your attachment to a belief is based on a feeling. Unfortunately feelings testify mostly to what we would like truth to be and not to a reality based in facts.
Yeah if you go on a lot of Ex-Mormon social media groups it just mostly sounds like a bunch of angry white men. My wife told me about a lot of problems women have with the church and I didn't believe her until I joined the Exponent II group on Facebook. I learned there to shut up and listen and what I learned was that my wife was right and I still feel really bad for not believing the first time. This issue is my number one reason why I do not believe the LDS church is true. It's sexist, homophobic, racist and was created by a white man. It truly shows how privileged I was being a straight, white, cis-gendered, male that I never even questioned why there are basically no women in the scriptures. Why women can't hold power, and God is not even a woman but has a wife (our Heavenly Mother) but we can't pray to her or acknowledge her. Women can't control the money, women can't hold the priesthood. There isn't some sort of equal for them like priestesshood. Polygamy is okay if you have more than 1 wife sealed to you nowadays, but you can't be sealed to more than one husband. Everything just seems to work out in favor of men... huh? Wasn't Eve just an afterthought too? Because who wrote the scriptures? Men. Anyway, sorry for the rant, but Ann Wood in my experience talking to other men who left the church, your comment is pretty accurate, anecdotally at least.
Beautiful interview! I love Jana's writings including her book, the chapter in the Palmgrave handbook on Global Mormonism, and her blog. Great insight at 28:38. Those who have the hyper-morality that Jana describes cannot stay in a church which does not even have the decency to apologize for past mistakes.
I found some of the facts cited interesting but ultimately I conclude that polling people's feelings has limited usefulness. As in today's political arenas, there are lots of reasons for the way people respond to polls. I don't think social science techniques have a lot to offer on this important subject. The topic is a deadly serious one and for people who believe that we are on earth to be tried and that the decisions we make in this life have eternal consequences it is one that deserves attention. However, I found it curious that such an important topic was treated without a single reference to scripture or other inspired prophetic utterance. Many of the cited reasons were differences on certain statements of belief. Jesus taught that "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God , or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17. Jesus lays out the key of knowledge--obedience to his commandments. If we keep the commandments an understanding of the doctrine is given to us. If we don't, that understanding is withheld. The scriptures also point out that this knowledge is something that can exist one day and then be lost through disobedience--"that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, . . ." D&C 93:39. Alma 12:10-11 teaches the same point. The question of why people leave the church was directly addressed by the Lord in revelation in D&C 84:49-53: "49. And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin. 50. And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me. 51. For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin. 52. And whoseo receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me. 53. And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, . . . " My experience as a member has taught me that it is silly to pin the problem of alienation on a poor bedside manner on the part of Latter-Day Saints (they're too judgmental, they're too dogmatic). I have not experienced that from members but a great deal of care for others. People get offended when they lack the Spirit. A great case study for today's millennials is the story of Corianton. In Alma 39-42 he recounted a series of doctrinal doubts to his Father including doubts about knowledge of the future (39:17), the resurrection (40:1), the restoration (41:1) and the justice in the punishment of sinners (42:1). His Father Alma patiently taught on these points but he perceived that these doctrinal issues were not due to any failure to teach Corianton the truth as he had done with all his children. Rather, Corianton's problem was that he had fallen into serious error and sin and alienated the Spirit of the Lord. The knowledge he previously had was taken away. Perceptively, his Father told him to stop worry about those points o doctrine "And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance." Alma 42:29. For that reason the Lord taught the missionaries to "preach naught but repentance" and to avoid discussion of "tenets." Ultimately the Lord's precious knowledge is only shared with the obedient. You will drive yourself crazy thinking there is any other route to enlightenment of those who have distanced themselves from the truth. I believe that nobody learns their way out of the church but that plenty sin their way out. Some convince themselves they have learned their way out after they have lost the Spirit and the precious knowledge previously imparted to them by the Spirit. Many hide their sin but eventually all things are made manifest and everything makes sense. I know this opinion will bring screaming from many ex-mos. Very few are genuine enough to admit that a desire to sin was the catalyst. Some well meaning Latter Day Saints may also believe it is too simplistic an explanation. To them I ask, what light does the Word of God shed on this problem? I think we can agree that we should try to reclaim and redeem all of God's children. We are never to believe that anyone is past the redemptive power of the Savior. But how best to bring alienated souls to the Savior's redemptive power? I personally do not believe that addressing red herrings will do any good. Only preaching the Gospel of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ can ultimately help those alienated from God.
You are right, there is a limit to how useful polling is at measuring beliefs and opinions. But what more reliable method is there? Screaming opinions isn't much different from preaching. Neither is very effective nor should they be. Discussion of such important topics should be based on reason and evidence because they can be accessed by both sides. Would you change your beliefs based on passionate proclamations of others? If not why would you expect them to believe yours?
@@myothersoul1953 A lot of the information here will be inaccurate according to what was said and what I've witnessed. On the collection of data each member gave only one reason why they left. I've read lots of accounts and they all tend to of had more than one reason why they left, the subjects involved in the data should of being able to give more than one reason of why they left. I've listened to the author of the CES Letter's story. He shares he left because leaders couldn't answer his questions, church history, the papyrus, married to people as young as 14, polyandry as well as polygamy, identical chapters between the KJV Bible and The Book of Mormon, looking in a hat while videos show Joseph using urim and thummim, LGBTQ+ policies and more. I haven't come across anyone who left for just one reason, they all had more than one reason.
@@danielmoore4024 I think you are right, there a lots of reasons people leave the LDS church. Even if there is only one reason they leave, once faith subsides many things that which were easily believe before are far less tenable. I left the church long ago and don't think of it much but Knowing Better did a series on Mormonism and other religious moments that started in the same area at the same time such as the Seventh Day Adventist. Looking at those beliefs some the outside they seem preposterous but from the inside the seem profound. That's how people are. I am person so I wonder how my beliefs look from the outside? Are my beliefs reasonable? Since leaving The Church I converted to Natural Philosophy so I don't have many beliefs. I even share original poster's skepticism of the social sciences. There's a lot to be skeptical there, we should be skeptical. But what seemed odd about that post was the abrupt turn from skepticism to dogmatism. The social sciences probably won't give provide a very accurate account of the many reason people leave the church but neither is scripture.
@@myothersoul1953 I'm a philosophical thinker myself, I question a lot about the world. Even though I'm still a member of the church I agree that in some locations like the US, it fits the criteria of the BITE Model as does another organisation my community and I have been rebelling against for decades, Applied Behaviour Analysis Therapy, the most common used therapy on the autistic community and it is potentially abusive like the cultural side of the church. ABA is a social science itself that increases suicide rates, from the accounts I've read, there seems to be a multiplied suicide rate among members of the LGBTQ+ population, especially near Utah. I always look from both sides myself and from an outside look I see problems mainly on the cultural side of the church and of a few beliefs that devalue and discredit minorities in the church. Like I find B. Young's racism disturbing as that devalues black people, some policies like children with gay parents can't get baptized until they're 18 as it devalues both the child and the LGBTQ+ population. If I look at the church from a religious perspective I can understand most of it as acceptable. If I look from a social and political perspective it's sexism, racism, manipulation, brain washing, and a civil rights scandal.
💭Quitting the Mormon Church In a local newspaper in Provo (Utah), there had been an ongoing series of articles written by individuals who wanted to persuade, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, commonly known as, the “Mormon church” to leave the Church. In response to the highly critical and spirited remarks, a local member wrote this rebuttal: “Editor: I have been thinking of quitting the Mormon Church. Yes, if I can, I am going to get even with that church. As soon as I can find another church that teaches about the Gathering of the House of Israel; the return of the Ten Tribes and their mission; the return of the Jews to Palestine and why, and how they are going to build the temple; the building of temples and what to do with them; the mission of Elias, the prophet, as predicted by Malachi; the method for the salvation of the people that died at the time of Noah in the flood; the origin of the American Indian; the complete explanation of why Jesus of Nazareth had to have a mortal mother but not a mortal father; the explanation of the three degrees of glory (three heavens) as mentioned by Paul; the complete explanation of why Elias and Moses did not die but had to be translated (since they both lived before the resurrection was introduced by Christ); the restoration of the gospel by modern revelation as promised by Peter and Paul and Jesus himself; the belief in eternal marriage and the family, and the knowledge and the place to seal for eternity; that teaches abstinence from all harmful drugs and foods ; and that sells the best fire insurance policy on earth, for the last days, for only a 10th of my income. Yes sir, as soon as I can find another church that teaches all that, or even half as much, I will say good-bye to this Mormon Church. The church that I am looking for must also be able to motivate 50,000+ youth, and adults, for the first, second or third time, to leave their homes for two years at their own expense and go to far-away places to teach and preach without salary. It must be able to call, on a frosty day, some 5 or 6 thousand professors, students, lawyers, doctors, judges, policemen, businessmen, housewives and children to go and pick apples at 6 am. It must be able to call meetings and get the attention for two hours of more than 150,000 men. Yes, it must also teach and show why salvation is assured for children who die before eight years of age. Mr. Editor, could you help me find a church that teaches all that and more than hundreds of other doctrines and principles, which I have no room to mention here, and which brings solace and comfort to the soul; peace, hope, and salvation to mankind, and above all, that answers the key questions that all the great philosophers have asked; questions and answers that explain the meaning of life, the purpose of death, suffering and pain; the absolute need for a Redeemer and the marvelous plan conceived by our Father and executed by Jesus Christ the Savior? Yes, as soon as I find another church that teaches that, and also that has the organization and the powers to make that teaching effective, I am going to quit the Mormon Church. For I should not tolerate that “they” should change a few words in the Book of Mormon-even if those changes simply improve the grammar and the syntax of the verses-for, after all, don’t you think the Divine Church should employ angels as bookmakers, and clerks, to do all the chores on earth? Don’t you think, Mr. Editor, that the Divine Church should also have prophets that don’t get sick and don’t get old and die, and certainly, that don’t make a goof here and there. No, sir! A Divine Church should be so divine that only perfect people should belong to it, and only perfect people should run it.As a matter of fact, the Church should be so perfect that it should not even be here on earth! So, I repeat, if any one of the kind readers of this imperfect letter knows about another church that teaches and does as much for mankind as the Mormon Church, please let me know. And please do it soon, because my turn to go to the cannery is coming up. Also, “they” want my last son (the fifth one) to go away for two years and again, I have to pay for all that. And I also know that they expect me to go to the farm to prune trees, and I have heard that our ward is going to be divided again, and it is our side that must build the new chapel. And also, someone the other day had the gall of suggesting that my wife and I get ready to go on a second mission, and when you come back, they said, you can volunteer as a temple worker. Boy, these Mormons don’t leave you alone for a minute. And what do I get for all that, I asked? “Well,” they said, “for one, you can look forward to a funeral service at no charge!”… Do you think you can help me to find another church?💯♥️☮️Thomas D. Clark”
I can't believe there are no comments on this video yet. 19:52 "Mormons have a tendency to assume that every one in the room feels the same way about everything ..." This is almost certainly true. And a likely cause for this can be found in the process mormons use to form their testimonies of the church. Namely, that one can know truth infallibly through personal revelation. If this method is valid it then it necessarily follows that any one who has used this process will be in total agreement with EVERYONE ELSE that has used the same process. Therefore it should be fine to express ones truth conclusion arrived at in this way using the strongest possible terms with out fear of giving offence among a group of others that have used this method. The nature of the method itself makes differences of opinion among its practitioners theoretically impossible To point out divergences in truth opinions between people that have used this process suggests problems with the notion of personal revelation and indirectly threatens the validity of the method people use to know truth and the conclusions of every one in the room that used this method to form their testimony. So while I think that the recommendation to stop assuming that everyone in the room feels the same way about everything is good advice, it is ultimately corrosive to the traditional mormon mechanisms for forming testimony.
I know what it feels like being dehumanised, misunderstood and judged, my entire population is dehumanised that in the 1990s we slashed out at the public to fight for our civil rights. In the UK 1998 Autism Rights Movement Judy Singer coined the term "neurodiversity" drawn from "biodiversity," not long afterwards the term was embraced and "The Neurodiversity Movement" commenced. Sociologists, psychologists, society etc... all agreed to torture and abuse my population motivating many of us to commit suicide. Still this day, university studies show we are 10x more likely than the general population to die by suicide all thanks to the public. How does the following sound? “You see you start pretty much from scratch when you work with an autistic child. You have a person in the physical sense - they have hair, a nose and a mouth - but they are not people in the psychological sense. One way to look at the job of helping autistic kids is to see it as a matter of constructing a person. You have the raw materials, but you have to build a person." (Ole Ivar Lovaas, founder of ABA and Gay Conversion Therapy) Out of all the accounts and stories I've read the majority of negative stories tend to be by American exmembers, especially those close to Utah. America is obsessed with behaviourism and taking control over the lives of others. ABA stripped autistic people of all their rights and claimed our bodies don't even belong to us, guess where Lovaas was from and lived? You've guessed it, Ivar Lovaas was an American in Washington. Just to note, racism towards blacks also tends to be most common in the United States. So the US founded an organisation to convert LGBTQ+ to being straight, founded an organisation to convert autistic people to neurotypical people, the country where most racism towards blacks occurs that's lead to "Black Lives Matter." None of this strict control is permitted in the UK which is why I feel so lucky, the government of my country honours the men and women who fought and sacrificed their lives to defend freedom of choice. America should stop trying to take authority over the lives of others.
What studies have been done on those with an attitude of gratitude? It seems that the outliers might be ignored in this research. Those that stay in and are happy... what are the main reasons why or what can we learn from that population?
That's also fine to discuss. 😊 It's not discussed as much because for both members and former members, they all know intimately why they stay/stayed and what the benefits are or were. It's why anyone would leave those wonderful aspects that is the question only former members truly understand because they survived that traumatic shift and they know why they wouldn't trade what they have now for what they had or could have had if they continued on with Mormonism. So that's why this gets discussed more.
At 6:27. Number 5: drifting away from mormonism. This sounds a lot like the Rumspringa Amish do when they hit age 20. They go off and do their own thing despite still identifying as Amish.
I don’t understand why people who were born or having members for many years would now leave the church . I am a convert . I joined at the tender age of 14. I didn’t know many of the things that we know now ( polygamy, Joseph’s human behaviors , Emma’s feelings, Joseph’s acquiring a weird papyrus , blacks and the priesthood, etc, and etc) . I only know that the Book of Mormon is true because no one with a 4th grade education today or back then could have in any way shape or form have written it unless he was guided . Jana’s research is so valuable for those of us who teach because we can be sensitive to those needs . To the people who left upset , angry or dis enchanted, etc, etc, there is nothing I can say other than “I am sorry you feel that way”. I believe you are wrong . I hope to be able to use this information yo prepare better and yo help better those who are willing to hear.
I respect you saying the Book of Mormon is valuable to you. But the notion that someone with only a fourth grade education couldn't write the book? Mohammad was likely illiterate, and he recited the Koran. But you're not following the Koran, so the education thing must not be the real kicker for you. So why is it really that you believe the Book of Mormon is factually accurate? Or is it just you feel good about the book. If so that's totally valid. Feelings matter.
She didnt say that's the only reason she felt it was true. Our testimonies grow over time with maturity and more knowledge and experience. But she was fourteen and that reason resonated with her. She went further after that. Testimonies cannot remain static
