Why do People LOVE to HATE Primaris Marines? And why RAGEBAIT is so common in Warhammer. 

Ian - "A fan might spend hours painting whilst listening to idiots to me" Me, looking up from the model I'm painting at 11pm at night.: Well that seems an unnecessary callout...

There are two things war gamers hate. The current state of the game and change.

What? A Warhammer RU-vidr treating me like the adult that I am? I . . . I don't know how to deal with this.

This video offends me as a warhammer fan which is the definitive characteristic of my personality. I look forward to your apology video.

This needs a Mira Manga introduction, "It was a time of DRAAAAAMAH!"

We used to call it a lifestyle hobby. The difference between a hobby and a lifestyle hobby is that a lifestyle hobbyist doesn't have other hobbies.

Well, as the saying goes: Tabletop-Fans only hate two things: Things changing and things not changing.

There is something amazingly cathartic abut someone finally being able to put what ive been trying to figure out why the fandom is so utterly exhausting into words...and then shout it out loud where they can hear it and im not the one doing it. Bravely done, Ian.

I remember taking business ethics in collage. The first day of class, the professor stood up in front of the class and said matter of factly, "In the modern business world, there is no such thing as ethics in business. That is not to say there shouldn't be, just that there isn't. They are more concerned about what is legal than what is ethical. That should never be the case. An ethical man does twice what is expected of them and only half of what is allowed. If you focus on what you are allowed to do then you can never call yourself an ethical person. It is my hope in this class to make ethical people. It is your job to create ethical business." That click bait exists is not the issue. The issue is that when someone gets called out on it, their instant response is "I'm not violating the terms of service." Just because you are following the rules doesn't make you a righteous person. That is literally the least we expect of you. Ian, I find you to be at least a conscientious man and have given us a great deal of your time to explain lore, talk about rules, paint little miniatures with your friends, and review some of the most prolific branded literature on the planet. I can also say with a bit of certainty that you at least try to be an honest and ethical man given what little we see on these videos. I truly wish that there were more like you and even if everyone conducted themselves like you do I would still wish for more. Is the world ethical? Not really. It is up to us to hold ourselves to higher standards and at times shame the bad actors in our world into being better themselves. Not by calling them out, but by just shaking our heads and moving on.

That thumbnail was so click-baity I literally scrolled right past it thinking “Oh that can’t be Ian…” 😂

Majorkill tries to hit Weshammer with a lariat but Weshammer dodges! But wait! Who’s that? It’s Arbitor Ian with the steel chair!!!!!

"The lore is essentially a series of stories designed to market toy soldiers" - Best quote ever!! :)

Exceptional work as the voice of reason talking about both the game as an actual game, and all the concerns that go with the realities of manufacturing etc, and the place of Warhammer and community within the modern world. Though the lack of latex catsuit on a spaceship is disappointing Ian, but preceded by the perfect summary of "I can't imagine feeling anything other than a slight annoyance at it, it's not important" is just *chef's kiss*

I remember a while back I was getting SOOOO sick of the phrase "a slap in the face", as any nerdy fandom I enjoyed enough to join discussions on constantly had people saying that this thing that happened is a "slap in the face" and this update was a "slap in the face" and the company that owns the franchise not doing X or Y is a "slap in the face." It was just utterly exhausting. This video reminded me why I started dropping out of places like that, the sense of entitlement and constant soap box outrage just sucks the fun out of it for me.

The Custodes bullshit going on shows how timely this is.

God, this video was excellently timed with all the flame wars going on with female Custodes. It's been exhausting seeing the community treat an innocuous retcon like Big Brother decreeing that Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

Great video and a lot to think about. One related thing I'd add is the way companies co-opt and encourage that identity. Companies blur the line (as do celebrities) between purveyor and consumer to encourage sales, yet are surprised when 'The Fandom' acts with more entitlement than the relationship would strictly warrant. Very classical Rome and beware of unleashing the mob.

One thing some people seem to forget is that you can make up your own lore. You want your guys all being firstborns in new armor? You want your necrons still be enslaved by their gods? Just do it, nobody is stopping you. And if you want to play with old models, just find someone who appreciates it. I really like seeing unique armies and ideas and i'm sure other do so too.

So funny thing. After watching this video I've started getting recommendations for Rage Bait Warhammer videos. Which is just a sad irony.

One of the best thing about warhammer is the community. Also the worst thing about warhammer is the community.

Fandom and performative outrage were among the reasons I've become more iconoclastic over the last decade. It's especially bad when people tie their mental wellbeing to products/IPs. Lore started out with fans on forums piecing together all the cool background stuff that the writers had written in codex's, novels and magazines. It was loving appreciation for world-building. To see it now treated as sacred texts would be funny, if it wasn't also deeply sad.

Ian. This is by far, the most erudite explanation of what has been going on with fan's and settings for the last 10-15 years. The huge uptick in the push to turn fan, back into the full word, Fanatic.

One important thing to remember is that GW was also moving towards rebranding things with more copyrightable names, with things like Eldar becoming Aeldari, Imperial Guard becoming Astra Militarum and the like. This can probably be traced back to the Chapterhouse Studios lawsuit and how generic names like Tactical Marines, Imperial Guard and Eldar can't be enforced in court.

Great video, thanks for making it! Side note, phew, I didn't see you scroll past any of mine ;-)

Can I humbly request official “Hate-o-metre” merch?

I hate it when "the same 20 guys turn up to every plot point" and that's one reason I like Warhammer so much compared to lots of other sci fi and fantasy franchises. I guess 40k does it some times, but its proliferation of random characters who show up for a novel and then die half way through is a real strength of the setting.

I think one of the reasons for the particularly over the top response of the Warhammer community that you haven't touched on is the sheer cost of the hobby. If I pay £20 for a videogame on Steam and the developers stop patching it after a couple of years thats no big deal. If I spend £500 on a set of models plus hundreds of hours of time building and painting them, I think it's natural to feel more strongly about a change to the level of support they receive from the manufacturer. This is magnified for younger people with both a less mature attitude and less disposable income. It's further magnified by the way the hobby is sold. I often hear some variant of 'models first' but that isn't the impression a new hobbyist gets. They sometimes view it as a game first that's accessed through the medium of hobbying and I don't think GW do much to dispel that. Rules and even whole systems, particularly 40k, are written as if competitive play with its ever evolving meta is the intended way to experience the game. Personally, I don't see it that way but that's because I'm an old fart - I remember blast templates and never getting balance updates. Returning to the hobby after a long absence, I was surprised by how tournament play has become so dominant and I think it's a key element of why the fan base can be so toxic. If your hobby is playing in tournaments, range updates and lore changes will feel like a crude tax and sometimes it's hard to argue that isn't the case - I'm talking to you, desolation squads. Just my two pence really, I liked the video a lot and thought I'd chuck in this additional point just to see if it rings true with anyone else.

That Discourse Miniatures is the worst one for Click/RageBait and misinformation....EVERY Video is will contain words such as "killing" "Crisis" "TOXIC" "Scam"...Every video has to do with a scandal or some crisis or trouble...ive never seen her do an actual video on the gaming/painting or lore side just all pure rubbish.

As someone who really likes not just AoS, but Stormcast Eternals, I feel this. I've felt on the end of this ragebait cycle, talking to people who insist that AoS and Stormcast are the absolute worse while not actually knowing much about them. Love the video too, it's gotten me to reassess how I view Warhammer. I've been dissatisfied with the Horus Heresy and the Imperium vs Chaos narrative in 40k, and now I'm starting to realise that it is kinda just valid to check out of those instead of maintaining a hate boner. GW can keep publishing Imperium-centric books and pushing an Imperium-centric viewpoint onto 40k, but I can just retreat to my little corner of 40k in my head and ignore all that. Probably a lot healthier than getting angry about it.

Was on the previous upload two minutes ago before it was pulled. Glad to be back. Now where was I..

I hope everyone watches this after they find out GW just mentioned a female Custodes.

Loving the Philosophy Tube reference, and I'd love to see that collab.

This video is really good and the whole "you should treat content creators as the small business that they are" is just flawless and very honest. I do have to play the devil's advocate a little though, because I think that even though the whole analysis of the nerd rage causes is spot on (and I do expect the costume changes and the latex Abigail Thorn style in your next opinion piece) it dramatically underestimates the economic aspect of it. I for example am simply too poor to play 40k right now, the hobby costs a shitload of money for a university student that lives of small jobs and (ironically) Warhammer paining commissions. When I do have time to paint something for myself I take it as a work of art because I simply don't have the money to get in the whole "buy-paint-play-repeat" mindset that leader-company-in-the-field gamesworkshop pushes so hard so every piece I make is something that costed me a large percentage of my spending money and lots of time that I could have spent full on fine wine and oyster like I guess non-warhammer players do in their free time. My point is that such a big economic investment has people nervous by itself and even if warhammer has a very conservative (in every sense of the word sadly) odience it is completely understandable to be more than slightly bothered when you see the models that you've put so much time and effort in being discontinued and progressively next to impossible to play if you want to continue to participate in the community as is.

Another consequence of fandoms taking on media as their identity is that they pretty quickly begin to see themselves as the stewards or even true owners of the IP. Seeing how fans will flip from veneration to straight up telling the creators of their favorite IP that they don't understand their own work is pretty wild, and adds to the general rage-bait atmosphere. Great video! I feel like this explains why gamer fandoms tend to be so hostile and toxic as well.

I think there's an interesting tangential discussion, which you definitely touch on here, about why these sort of commercial lifestyle hobbies or fandoms are so prone to this as a consequence of their structure. Using your example of cycling, if a bike manufacturer creates a new bike design you don't like, you can buy from a different manufacturer. If a race organiser introduces some rules you don't like, there are probably other races. With hobbies like Warhammer, if the manufacturer/publisher/owner does something you dislike, your options are put up or shut up. If you want to engage with Warhammer, it's under GW's terms. Rather than businesses following a community, a community follows a business. So I see these sorts of outrages and controversies as, in some way, a reaction to loss of control, to being unable to engage with their hobby on their preferred terms, and so are an attempt to have some control. Whether any given reaction is proportionate or sensible is another matter, but I do think there's a real, fundamental, tension at play here.

How dare this man be so sensible and examine the issue with a variety of lenses and from different perspectives?

Ok Ian, you were already my favourite warhammer content creator but this video has massively increased my respect for you. Intelligent, nuanced and proportional discourse on the internet? Not assuming that your preferences for a thing are 'correct' and that everyone who disagrees with you isn't worthy of respect? Linking the dynamics of the internet with wider societal/political trends to understand events? Absolutely love it ❤

The Philosophy Tube reference was GOLD. Great video, Ian!

That was such a real PhilosophyTube shoutout

"The Lore was telling us, that they no longer mattered, that they weren't important, that they were going to die and be forgotten" For the most popular lorehammer channel on the planet, he seems to completely forget what the central theme of 40k is...

Ian my guy, this video is exactly why I keep coming back to see your next video. you say things as they are, of course through the filter of your own view of them. as a youngish man, I'm quite fond of your content. really looking forward to what you plan to upload next. also, that ending was awesome.

I love 40K. Ive spent at this point likely months or years of my life painting or reading or listening to audiobooks or playing video games or watching videos or god knows what else in the setting. I could probably give a three day lecture series on lore topics on demand. But then i realize i care like 1% as much as some folks seem to. People gotta calm down. Go look at a lake or something. See that theres other stuff in life. Primaris are cool. Its all fine. Relax and play with your toys.

I'm so glad you are a part of this community! You bring a much needed adult perspective to this whole hobby.

16:14 cries in warp spider

Had a genuinely thoughtful time listening in the car. What a lovely video. Covered a lot of things to sit back and consider of oneself, and a very fair analysis of remembering that content creators arent' your buddies. I remember TotalBiscuit (RIP the legend) always stressing it, and that was BEFORE the boom time of influencers. I love that you directly mention the way that "hate" outside of incidental casual word use only emerges from something outside of the actual matter itself. The only true disagreement I'd have is on FOMO, which I feel it a toxic practice that preys on the compulsive and often neurodivergent, and I highly recommend Jim Sterling's video on why FOMO/RNG is such a dangerous thing and why "you can always not buy it" isn't really much of a defence for vulnerable people. Excellent stuff, Ian, always appreciate your calm and thoughtful views.

Just gonna answer the question "Why do people hate primaris?" I dislike them because they represent the eventual phasing-out of my old collection of firstborn marines from the rules. Additionally, they fundamentally changed Space Marines from being a toolbox army where "every squad can do every job" through wargear, to now where every squad has one specific loadout for one particular job, and if you want to do something different, you have to buy different models. Gone are the days of having four tactical squads, each equipped with flexible wargear to take all comers. Now you have an individual rocket marine squad, a flamethrower marine squad, a plasma squad, a melta squad, and a bolter squad, who do one specific thing and nothing else particularly well. It makes list building boring and way less flexible in my opinion.

I just want to say that you're my favorite 40k ruber since your so calm informative and passionate intressting and most importantly humble. You're the type of person people can aspire to be, so please keep continue showcasing these beatiful qualities. :)

As a journalist, I feel like the rest of the world is catching up to what has degraded our business for the last 20 years or so. This is a wonderful distillation of the psychological problems at hand in my business too. Fine work Ian! Thank you.

Great analysis as always Ian. I absolutely LONG for a time when the bubble bursts and the rage/click bait grift becomes no longer tenable and we can return to properly researched, balanced, professional quality content.

On the RPG side of the house our hands aren't particularly clean. We spend our time arguing about which edition is best

While I mostly agree with you, I would also say we have a similar problem from the GW apologist side. The idea that any complaint is wrong and unwelcome and that you should be happy to just give GW all your money and accept all the dirty tricks they use to get said money is every bit as toxic as these incredibly dumb click bait rage videos.

I'm sorry, but mentioning Primaris Marines means youve stolen this video idea from Majorkill

Killer work as always, Ian. I found it especially interesting as someone coming to the hobby from Magic, where all of these problems are identical but for being louder and faster and American. Magic has a couple of it's own major "crossing the Rubicon" moments which are amplified there because of how focused that game has historically been on tournament play/winning and *having* the product. You're absolutely right about the factionalist cosplay aspect of the game, but I think comparison reveals that there's a flip side to that where the scale of the hobby and lore (as well as having Fantasy run alongside 40k) is a calming effect that other peer franchises suffer without. There's a baked-in camaraderie to there being more to read and paint than any one reasonable human can engage with which encourages people to see other hobbyists as siblings more than rivals. I know AdMech, you know Skaven, they know Space Wolves, we each have our own cool models and stories to share with the others. Not that there aren't unpleasant, misguided people in every hobby, but I think it's an important little tether that keeps Warhammer fuctional and grounded as a social activity when there are so many pressures driving it towards a parasocial fixation.

What a change only a few days make. I yearn for such simpler times.

You could say the same thing happened/is happening right now with the Horus Heresy system. People are complaining about the new marines, about the older models, about keeping/moving things to and from resin, new and old factions etc etc Just like what has happened with the 40k setting

I have been sick of seeing all the hate videos for the hobby I use to get away from the real world, I get that it gets more views for those content creators but just ruins the hobby for me in my own opinion. Im happy to see someone call this out.

Really good video Ian, thanks for going through all this because I had never thought of primaris in this way. I also appreciate the way you went through all the context for rage bait and i think that knowledge is something more of us online need to aware of.

Damn man. I always enjoy your videos but this one is really next level. I was NOT expecting such a thoughtful discussion on hobbies, identity politics, fandoms, marketing and how it all interacts with each other. There’s several people I wish I could get to watch this but I don’t think they’d make it past it being a Warhammer vid lol.

Oof, that was weird. I was about halfway through when the Fire Natio... I mean, the video suddenly got re-uploaded with a new name.

You’ve won me over with your voice of reason. God I wish the internet was more like you

I, for one, am disappointed with the lack of latex catsuit.

I find it pretty funny that for 40k GW tries to slowly introduce a new product line in without completely nuking people’s collections and people get upset. They learned from that lesson for AoS and just say up front, we are changing these models for new ones, and people are still upset. It’s one of those things where we hear a huge uproar from the squeakiest wheels which are mostly in the minority anyway.

ufff a bunch of friends are 3D printers and the "GW must fear us" mentality is their identity

The Aribitbor Ian/Philosophy Tube crossover is something I'd never thought about before, and now, desparately want...

Bravo, Ian, once again you've presented what I would consider a pretty good, reasonably impartial take on a pretty complex subject, and you even recognize how you end up in the same thing basically, which i think a lot of folks would conveniently overlook precisely to avoid coming off as knocking down their own argument instead of just acknowledging the contradictory nature of content creation sometimes, so well done! Just from previous instances we've commented back and forth a bit over the years i know we have different views on some of these things but i appreciate your moderate stance, and while this is a long video and there's lots of material covered that I'd love to talk about more, i thought I'd bring up this to see what you might think about it, and that is reaching a state of relative apathy for lack of a better term, based on that whole idea that even vitriolic responses are evidence that you are invested in the topic, while apathy is arguably a worse outcome because you aren't part of it at all anymore. What i mean by apathy is basically where a not-insignificant number of people like myself probably find themselves now. They got tired of chasing after the rules and getting them just in time for a new edition to start, steady range refreshes (like the titular primaris of this video, or being a dark angels player like myself right now and what GW has done to that faction recently being a good example of this) coupled with being priced out of the hobby, etc. Etc. Etc. A combination of negative factors like that also pushed me out of fantasy about 10 or so years ago (which is why the old world was actually a nice surprise when it finally dropped after years of waiting), but the point is that I've mostly just stuck to doing this as a hobby rather than a game....i actually follow the lore quite a bit less than the game itself, and a lot of the channels shown in this video i also happen to follow so i get what you mean, but i don't really play the game mostly because i don't have anyone around me that plays right now and i was only a casual player at most. Having said that, how would you account for the model-agnostic, "heartbreaker", and any other names that these new game systems that deliberately come up from a community that feels either neglected or forgotten or fed up with the corporation they were customers of (i.e. WotC and GW probably are the biggest targets here)? Games like kings of war... inq28....grimdark future....etc. etc. Etc. Being good examples of this trend, so what does that spell out for any given fandom? Personally i think that what could be best described as the rise of the reactionary competitor is probably what's in store for more and more hobbies if things continue down this way. Videogames have had the indie/mod scene for decades now, and our hobby pretty much has exploded into an DIY/indie-style approach largely thanks to the dissemination of 3d printing in the last decade give or take...comic books have some of that going on as well....etc. etc., so i don't know if this would warrant a follow-up to this video perhaps but if you have the time by all means go ahead and voice your thoughts on those alternatives, I'm sure you have some interesting ideas about those if you haven't commented on them already. Keep up the great work, cheers!

Though I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, I think you also exhibit a heavy underlying dismissive tone. Yes, Games Workshop is just a company selling model toys and accompanying merchandise, but that could be said of anything. Sports teams are just adults playing games and selling tickets to their shows. Music artists are just selling music. If they change a rule in soccer that fundamentally changes the game, it would be easy as a non-soccer fan to just say 'get over it. it's just a game'. People don't want to see the things they like being fundamentally changed to their core, which Primaris did. Nearly every 40k book starts with the words "Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding..." followed by a change where the Imperium adopts a significant amount of progress in their genetics, weapons, equipment, armor, etc. after apparently relearning how to do them. On top of this, as you point out, a fan of 40k has likely spend an insane amount of money, time, and effort into buying, building, reading, painting, and playing, and so a change that makes whatever has been spent in time and money moot, is going to be met with...hate.

Ian dropped this, and literally less than a week later, there's another community controversy (over something so miniscule it's crazy)

I think this whole Primaris argument, and let me make it clear I don’t like them models lore and everything about them, comes down to what GW is as a company. GW claims to be a model company that also makes games you can play with their models. However, at least at the stores I used to go to, the sales pitch was here is this cool world with loads of lore and a cool game, oh and you can buy all these models as well. So when GW suddenly changed everything the whiplash was more extreme than D&D or MTG, which has always been clear game first lore second. It probably didn’t help that people like me, who legitimately don’t like the redesign, had to accept that well no more 40k Space Marines for me, so off to Hersey. Wait you upscaled the Marines here and they look great? Why didn’t you just do that in 40k? And then they started releasing new Primaris that basically look like upscaled classic models, which really feels like GW wanting to have it both ways. Of course that makes sense GW is a company that exists to make money, but it really leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

genuinely fantastic video, it’s the kind of deconstructive commentary the warhammer ‘’’community’’’ has been needing for a long time

Superb video and without a doubt one of your best ones, and in general about the topic of Primaris Marines, combined with fandom and identity politics issues. Seriously, stupendously good. Although I watch the three creators you talked about (more interested in what and how they present topics then the topics itself), Luetin09 and you are far and above the ones I enjoy the most. Probably because, besides presentation style and delivery, we're somewhat the same age. And your channel id massively underrated.

TLDR: Please do more videos like this (and not even just about 40K). I watch & subscribed originally because the way you talk about 40K (which I've never played and don't plan to), is really approachable and engaging (in the real & good way, not the ways you talk about in this video). But after this video, I really really would love to see you branch out and do more video of media analysis like this. It was so well done, and made what could have been a very dry & inane topic fascinating.

For me, it's because we already had space marines. - I already had an army. - This army was fully painted. - Many, many customized conversions. - I just finished re-basing them all after they declared 25mm to be too small. - It was an apocalypse sized force (25,000+ pts) - They declared regular marines to be unfit. No, not buying that shizz.

There is a reason why you are one of my faves when it comes to 40k. Thoughtful, rational and perfectly willing to just go "meh" when it is whst is called for. Excellent video!

I feel this video should be a '101' course for people in all fan base communities. Be careful of manipulated hate. I both like and dislike (not hate) the Primaris. Like: The true-scale size; How marines were always supposed to be sized. Well done GW. Dislike: Removing all the different weapon options, which made the miniatures more interesting to look at. All the creative energy redirected into explaining Primaris as a new type of marine. Still love marines though. Im one of the few that hope they'll eventually release a primaris scale Tactical Squad (with Leader & Special/Heavy). Give 'em the new primaris weapon options if you want, so long as there's still options to make. The 'alt' weapons dont even need to have rules if you want to avoid rules/gameplay bloat. If they don't - meh. I'll just make 'em myself. Chill vibes man.

The nod to Philosophy Tube is so great. To the point, great deep dive into the content creation culture and overly internalized idea of "community / identity". In the words of Ilya Bryzagalov "It's only game. Why you have to be mad?"

I'm super glad to have watched this video. Insightful, moderating, educating and level headed. I wish you didn't have the obviously click batey thumbnail but I get it. You're doing important work here. As a part of several fandom wars (Amiga vs Atari, Mac vs PC, FLOSS vs the World, Apple fandom, Tolkien fandom, StarWars fandom, Star Trek fandom, music genre fandoms, etc) through the years, I wish _this_ video was available to me in my teens.

Well that was well considered and fascinating. Amazing timing too. Female Custodes anyone?

Btw I'm a Woman who likes 40K. That's its own huge history and area of rage within the fandom (I was literally glared out of a GW shop when I was 14). Glad the real-life playspaces and communities are more welcoming now at least.

Glad Ian is around to be the sensible uncle of the online Warhammer space. What a legend!

Fucken hell Ian, watching this video took you from “cool bloke I listen to occasionally to hear about the Horus heresy” to “someone whose opinion and analysis I greatly respect”. Really thoughtful discussion of the topic!

Ian unloaded a with a full social discourse! Very interesting to listen to. Side note - I don't reckon there would be half as much complaining about FOMO and limited releases, if there wasn't the endemic scalping issue. You can't really mention one without the other

I can't believe one of the best videos I've seen about media literacy and self-identification with a hobby came from a 40k loretuber. But if it was going to be from one, of course it would be from you. Thanks, Ian! Keep up the good work! 😁

All of this is very sensible haha. I think a big thing with Primaris in a lore aspect is a need to validate the 'static for 10 000 years' thing, suddenly making things move forward like you said helped kill two birds with one stone, a complete refresh to modernize things and present some type of hope post-cadia. It is very funny how all of the most popular Pre-Change Space Marines just get the upgrade LOL. I do wonder if eventually this going forward plot will eventually peter out as you are definitely nearing to comic book problem where things can only update so far. I like the fact that Guy Haley put in so much of Belisarius stuff in his Horus Heresy books, should have made people more relaxed. This channel makes liking Warhammer feel way more palatable because you understand how inherently silly Warhammer is, which is part of what makes it great. I remember reading a Mike Brooks book that I loved and I found to be pretty sensible 'Rites of Passage', only to learn that there was a cultural war fought over it. As a leftist, I was like 'wait isn't this the entire point of Warhammer' which is funny, because the complete opposite interpretation is unfortunately just as common. Great video!

Here's my lore explanation for Primaris Marines: they were veteran Firstborn Space Marines who were volunteered for an "experiment" on the orders of the revived Guilliman and the Lords of Terra. Brave volunteers known for their strength and endurance step up and sign on for this "Primaris" experiment. They return with the upgraded Geneseeds and Mark X armor, and they prove to be effective. Seeing this development, Guilliman orders a complete roll-out of the Rubicon Primaris so that all Space Marines are upgraded into Primaris Marines. That way, it explains why all the promotional materials show Primaris Marines only, while the Firstborn are becoming an increasingly rare sight. The Adeptus Astartes as a whole are being converted into Primaris Marines, which explains why they're suddenly the face of the Space Marines as a whole. Or, if we're to stick with the whole ''they came from Mars'' idea, then it's because Guilliman doesn't trust the various Space Marine chapters, especially after he's heard some rather unsavory things about certain chapters like the Blood Ravens who steal everything that isn't nailed down to the floor, and the Marines Malevolent who take pleasure in inflicting casualties on friend and foe alike. He realizes that the chapter system has failed, but he can't just overturn it on a whim. So he forces the Primaris Marines onto the various Space Marine chapters to keep an eye on them, and to purge any Space Marines who do not see eye-to-eye with his new administration, Order 66-style. I can just imagine a chapter master and his marines who suddenly decide to commit a war crime on their own contrary to Guilliman's orders suddenly get gunned down by the Primaris Marines who joined them. Ditto for any inquisitor, Imperial Guard officer, or naval officer who tries to do their own thing contrary to what the central government back on Terra wants. The Space Marine chapters have their own agendas, but the Primaris Marines are loyal only to Guilliman. After all, unlike the Firstborn Marines who are more like independent warriors, these new Primaris Marines are good soldiers who follow orders.

I always enjoy ArbitorIan's take that this is something to love and share with others. It's refreshing to have a compassionate and thoughtful take on a hobby with the most important point: that we're doing this to have fun.

It was about money. I don't really care and haven't had the time to collect/paint/play for a long time, but money is clearly the main reason. They could easily have just updated the look of space marines and said they were wearing a new mark of armour. But then people might not have bought them in the numbers that they did. Most people that play 40k are space marine players, by making a NEW type of space marine everyone who plays the faction has to update their entire army. Most people who played the game now had to spend loads of money. Saying this is okay in lore is just reaching. In 20 years will we see space marine space marine space marines?

Dont forget the Monetary commitment many people make. Justifying their purchases by saying its who I am. That pile of shame constantly nagging at them but people seeing past it because they are so committed to their lifestyle choice. When that over indulgent spending is then seen as being wasted because GW eliminates their part of the hobby, a petson can feel quite helpless, used, and insignificant. That's worth something. And some people take drastic measures to ease that pain and feeling of betrayal.

I like how you talk about the different creators giving them their fair credit and their fair criticisms

I bought my 1st 40K minis in 2001 and they were Space Marines. I never realized that they were squat and dumpy looking until the Primaris line dropped in 2017. I love the new sculpts ( not all of them mind you, but most of them) from an aesthetic standpoint. The lore is where GW lost its way a bit. It was simply ridiculous. So Cawl and Guilliman come up with a new updated version of genetically engineered super soldiers that are about a foot taller than the first born marines, but otherwise exactly the same. For a brief time in 8th edition Primaris marines had 2 wounds and mini marines had 1, but that was soon after changed and the minis got a 2nd wound. It was a lame, awkward go between. They weren’t faster (both move 6”) tougher (toughness 4) stronger (strength 4) or more accurate (both hit on 3s). Now 2 editions later the word Primaris has been all but eliminated from the setting. They are simply Space Marines as they should have been all along.

Ian, I've subscribed since the start. I very much like your content. But this video... This video is sublime. It is your masterpiece. Well done. Bloody, well done. Cheers. Ta ta.

Great video,loved it, now I need PhilosophyTube to do a video on warhammer faction ideologies

@arbitorian can you make a video about the female custodean? Seems like that subject could use some perspective as well. Thanks for everything.

Great video, lots of really well argued and clear-eyed points, bringing a lot of things i've been thinking about together in a form I hadn't quite been able to give them myself. Well done and thanks.

Belisarius Cawl did exist during the Horus Heresy, however the book Wolfsbane where he appeared in, was published a bit after the Primaris update/lore was already released.

Honestly, I love the Primaris. I loved that they made "true scale" Marines. I loved that they introduced new organisations, new unit types etc. BUT I really dislike that they phase out the old organisational structure. Tactical Squad, Devastator Squad etc. are being phased out of the game. Sure we are told that they just switch to become "Legend" but we all know that this just means a slower death. Frankly, IMO they should just sell primaries size sprues with the weapon options (where needed) and just allow the players to build their new squads with Primaris Marines but use the old organisation. Yes, we can do this on our own, to some extent at least, but for the pickup game in the store or even a friendly game with a new player that just does not work because said new player will look at the army and be extremely confused. While the pickup games are almost always "current codex only" and "only current edition" etc. So, I'm not sure people "hate" the Primaris, people like me *hate* the fact that our collections are being switched from the table to just collecting dust.

I do wish that I could see more video creators taking this approach when analyzing subjects like the ones you covered here,upon others. Hats off mr.Ian

This is stellar work Ian, some of your best! Your discussion on fandom as a whole can be applied all over, and really helps me understand why so many communities (especially gaming IMO) feel so much more toxic of late. Nicely done!

I sort of agree with the general point that people take Warhammer too seriously, but I think you're forgetting that it's a huge investment of both money and time for majority of its participants. In that context, it makes more sense to me why people would get so pissed when their existing armies are invalidated; that's a huge loss of investment. There's an emotional aspect to it as well, naturally, which is what can get over the top.

An unexpected surprise, but a welcome one. I only wish I could have finished watching the first upload

Fantastic video, Ian. This is such an even-handed look at fandom as a marketing tool and community concept (although, it's worth pointing out that fandom is just a new name. The practice has been around literally forever since it's just 'tribalism' with a new hat on. Sports fans: same thing, 'New Coke' scandal of the 80s: same thing, Beatlemania and "Beatles or Rolling Stones": same thing, even baseline nationalism: Same thing). Discussions around how fandom responds to IP owners / creators and their actions are also a good way to discuss 'despair' in the context of its actual meaning, too... But all the additions I'd love to make aside, it's a great video and I'm glad you use the platform you have to talk about things like this ("How do you solve a problem like the Imperium" is another great example) so directly.