Why Does D&D use these 6 Ability Scores? 

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Not knowing the difference between Wis and Int, is on point for D&D ...and many others - Bows require strength much more than dexterity, and swords require dexterity more than strength (unless they are used as iron bars with an edge) Wisdom is spotting something is odd - Intelligence is working out what is odd Wisdom is recognising it's a trap - Intelligence is knowing how to disarm it

Dexterity being the stat used for bows makes sense from a game design standpoint, but real bows need more strength the bigger they are and the harder and farther they can shoot. Warbows (~170 lbs draw weight) were wielded by _very_ strong individuals.

One of my favorite passages in all of D&D is the description in 3rd edition of what it means to have a 0 in an ability score, which I use as shorthand for what each ability represents. If you have Strength 0, you can’t move anything else. If you have Dexterity 0, you can’t move yourself. If you have Con 0, you are not alive. If you have Intelligence 0, you cannot think, learn, or remember. If you have Wisdom 0, you don’t know anything else exists. If you have Charisma 0, you don’t know that *you* exist.

Shout out to Bob for putting the big number in the big box, even though Ryan Stiles is about to start a fight over it

I like Shadowrun's 8 (10 technically but mainly 8) stats, because it feels like D&D but if the confusing bits were more clear. The interesting thing is that the mental and physical stats actually mirror each other. Body is your physical toughness, Willpower is your mental toughness. Agility is your physical speed, Logic is your mental speed. Reaction is your physical reflexes, Intuition is your mental reflexes. Strength is your physical influence, Charisma is your mental influence.

I will throw it out there that a lot of the od&d players intuited that rolling under your stat was how you passed a check. This was not in the rules, but it was a common mechanic circulating in war gaming circles in the 70's. They added a skill system in BECMI and non-weapon proficencies in ad&d that was a home rule everyone was using that they just officially codified, like a critical hit on a 20 or a fumble on a 1. They also did not have rules on little things like picking locks, moving obstacles, or how to tell if food was poisoned or bad other than eating it; the initiative thing was the dm making decisions on those things so you could do anything. There was not uniformity as some dm's also decided the outcome based on your ability score; ie, you have str of 8 so you auto fail bending the bars, but the fighter with str 18 auto passes with no dice rolled. Like I said, there were not rules for this but it was generally agreed on that the game designer meant the score to in some way impact these results, but no one used the same method till they codified it. They often used x of 6 charts or 3d6 roll under stat too, as d6 were most common dice. There are rules in the ad&d dmg that tell you how to play with poker dice, d6's, d10's or percentiles; it was wild.

I'm a fan of the 9 Attributes from Classic/Old World of Darkness. Strength, Dexterity and Stamina are your Physical Atts. Charisma, Manipulation and Appearance are your Social Atts. Perception, Intelligence and Wits are your Mental Atts.

This is Martin from Daddy Rolled A 1, and I wanted to thank you so much for mentioning my channel in your video! I really appreciate it! I'm glad you found it helpful in your research for your video. Cheers, and happy gaming!

Back in the day Wisdom was more in line with willpower, which I think in 5e got moved to Charisma. In 1e it was explained as 'intelligence is knowing smoking is bad for you but wisdom is being able to actually quit'.

Great video. A lot of your younger viewers might also not be aware that in early days stats served another purpose beyond the ability modifiers because prior to the existence of non-weapon proficiencies (skills) if a player wanted to perform a task not accounted for in the rules then the DM was advised to decide what stat the task was tied to and then have the player roll a d20 and success was achieved if they rolled *under* their ability score.

I like having the 6 stats as a balance between the different character attributes, as I feel 3 is often way too little, especially for mental stats

Bob. There is something many people forget about the 3 to 18 portion of the stats. That is that rolling 3d6 causes a bell shaped 'normal' distribution with the majority of rolls will be somewhere in the middle mimicking real life. That makes characters at the extremes special. In Ad&d there were ability checks where you had to roll under your score on a d&20. Adding fun randomness that way

Very cool giving Daddy Rolled a 1 a shout out. His videos on D&D history and the old-school books are really well done.

You really missed out, Bob. It could have been "Bob's Biblio to Bases and Businesses". You were almost an official TTRPG character there.

Playing BX clones with hirelings shows how powerful Charisma used to or can be. Rolling into the dungeon with a small army is WAY better than going alone. Also, hey Bob! Love your work. Keep it up!

it can be useful to distinguish between someone's ability to solve technical/logical problems and their ability to stay calm or have a gut feeling that they shouldn't trust someone depends on the focus of the game

When I design my own games I use four core stats. Brawn, Wits, Charm and Finesse. I think there is something to be said for the old tri-stat system of Mind Body and Spirit, but I prefer a bit more granularity in the games I make.

I love these analyses of systems and their history. It's not only fascinating in its own right, but it offers great ways to think of things, awesome ideas for adapting/changing, and inspiration to take those adaptations/changes further or in new directions. Great work, sir.

“Charisma used to be the most powerful stat in the game” used to be? I think it still is

As someone who dabbled in making their own system, it's hard to escape the shadow of the DnD's six stats. Thanks for the breakdown and history!

Personally love the complexity of 3 mental attributes. I like that someone can be smart in different ways and it reflects on the rpg. You also forgot to mention that ability score damage existed in 3.5 so they were theoretically different kinds of health along side HP that's my leading reasoning as to why the score existed.

Bob, old school Charisma was far from overpowered. Each of those hirelings cost you (and your party) a share of the treasure and XP. That high charisma character with a half dozen henchmen is a financial liability, not an asset, to a lot of old school parties.

Excellent breakdown Bob. I always told my players that Intelligence was your book smarts and Wisdom was your mental alertness. I think it is easiest to explain the difference by giving examples of characters who have a high stat in one and a low stat in another. The absent minded professor has a high Int and low Wis. They know a lot of facts and can figure stuff out, but are generally unaware of the world around them. Animals on the other hand have a low intelligence and high wisdom. They may not be able to figure out how to solve problems, but they are hyper alert. In other words, Intelligence is how much you know about the world, and Wisdom is how aware of it you are. Two things that usually get rolled into these two stats are cunning and spirituality. Depending on the setting these attributes might be more relevant. Edge of the Empire splits Intelligence and Cunning and I really like the way they do it. Intelligence is your book smarts and Cunning is your street smarts. And all the rogue skills like picking locks fall under that. One of the things that bothers me is when a game has stats that are only important for the class that uses them and I think 5e falls victim to this. Yes, each class has a stat that is important for the job they are meant to be doing, but being lackluster at something should matter beyond a suggestion to role play your character. My 3.5 half orc barbarian has an abysmal intelligence score and it bites me one way or the other most game sessions.

My favorite alternatives that I've seen are in "Amazing Tales" and "Lasers & Feelings" 😊. "Kids on Bikes" is good, too. But nostalgically, I ❤ tables 😂

When thinking about a system to play some specific sceneries with friends, I used as stats "Strength, Dexterity, Vitality (basically constitution), Mind (intelligence and wisdom together), and Soul (Charisma, Magic Power, and Lucky, together). And I made the status a lot lower, so I don't need to use modifiers, just the stats itself, I haven't played a whole table yet, but at my tests, this is being a lot simpler to write and to adapt to any world I want to play

My favourite part of this video was Ryan Stiles just hanging out in the background and not getting referenced at all. Welp, I'm off to buy that buildings book, because that's an area of D&D that Shadowdark still hasn't solved for me, and I'm willing to bet your rules will be simple and clean enough to just slot right in. Also... something about... supporting my favourite creators... or some sappy shit like that.

i adore how this channel is basically a dnd history show sometimes

Hot Take: Using only Modifiers and Combining Mental Scores is only popular because most designers don't think outside the box. Certain features could be bases on score (You have 15 power points because you have a Charisma score of 15). Or having skills or features change based on which mental score you use. If I roll a 17, I should have 17, 17 + X, or 17 - X of something. But no one ever thinks of what that something could be.

I think the way I like to differentiate Int and Wis is Learned Knowledge vs Applied Knowledge. You read up on history and arcana, but you had to work on your perception and survival traits to make the key notes that aid you.

In the system I am currently developing I changed wisdom to "Senses" and never looked back. Never once had to explain to players the difference from intelligence and it reflects whatever skills wisdom should encompass.

Nice video. My favourite attribute spread from an RPG are the 9 (Kinda 10) from Chronicles of Darkness. They are Intelligence, Wits, Resolve, Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Presence, Manipulation, Composure. A big reason for that is how they are clearly used and divided. First they can be divided by mental, physical and social with 3 in each in the order I wrote them. But then also like this: Power: Intelligence, Strength, Presence. Finesse: Wits, Dexterity, Manipulation Resistance: Resolve, Stamina, Composure Those two relations and that each of the three categories have all three gives you a very clear picture of how and when each are to be used. There is also a Size attribute. It always irks me when RPGs do not have a size attribute! Iti s more secondary though as for human like adult characters it is almost always 5, except 6 with a merit (Kind of a perk). Important for non human stuff though, or children.

The difference between Intelligence and Wisdom is epitomized in the differences between the two characters Tony Stark and Steve Rogers. Tony Stark is as smart as they come. The most brilliant guy possibly in the whole MCU. But he is reckless, self-absorbed, abuses alcohol, and womanizes. He's so smart that he cannot fathom that the first thing that pops into his head is not always the best thing to do. Steve: "Stark, we need a plan of attack!" Tony: "I have a plan... ATTACK!" A wise person, like Steve, is thoughtful, discusses plans with others, exercises good judgment, acts based on past experiences. He doesn't usually do the first thing that pops into his head. He pays attention to details among people (perception/insight) and animals (animal handling) not just in engineering or science. It's the main reason why Steve is the leader of the Avengers and Tony is the science guy.

Are you THE Bob THE world builder? (Jk kidding man, love your content). Keep it up!

Great video and I thoroughly enjoyed your time on RFC and your story of attending PAX Unplugged in my city.

Great Video! It's important to me to let you know I have been watching for a while and every video I get something out of. Sadly I started getting into playing just before 2020 didn't even get to play until it was mostly over and was still doing that online and then the whole OGL thing hit. So just getting started with TTRPGs was difficult for me. But thanks to you, Critical Role, DND shorts, professor DM, the Dungeon Dudes, Jocat and so many others I got to fill the hole not being able to play was filled. I want to thank all of you for what you do! Have a great holiday season and a great new year!

Would be cool if you covered the SHAZAM hypothesis and the influence of Ars Magica on the evolution of the mechanics from 3E onward.

I loved the editing in the first several seconds of the video. 😊

In my own TTRPG system, I've narrowed it down to 4: strength, dexterity, intelligence and wit. Strength and Intelligence would be acquaint to "raw power" whereas dexterity and wit would be "finesse" with using such raw power. I feel like it's easier to balance and still does a decent job at describing the characters in an intuitive way.

i recently made a character for City of Mists, and really liked that things like stats and abilities were all simple phrases you make based of your character concept. Now i do like games with hard and fast mechanics, but sometimes its fun to play something with a unique take to help me come up with more unique characters or ideas.

There is some merit to having more stats and that is granularity. By having sice as opposed to 3 (or however many fewer) you create more axis along which modifiers, conditions, effects and any number of other game rules can be constructed. Too few stats can lead to a game feeling too simple and, potentially worse, bland and without texture.

Favorite game ability scores? Human Occupied Landfill (HOL) uses Meat, Feet, Mouth, Greymatta, and Nuts. These are basically Strength, Dexterity, Charisma, Intelligence, and Resolve respectively, but like most things in HOL, they need to be expressed in a way that makes the inner 12 year old want to giggle. A few of my favorite skills are: "Operate Starship and Chew Gum at the Same Time", "Whining Until You Get What You Want", and "Making Sharp Things Go Through Soft Things That Scream and Bleed".

In creating my homebrew, I used 10 core stats into two categories (talents and archetypes). This allows you to mix and match stats and "class" to create 25 unique combinations. You don't have to design class combinations to make the fighter class "work" with different stats. You simply create characters a fighter whose prime stat is their intelligence. The 5 that represent your talents: *Charming* (charisma), *Deft* (dex), *Smart* (observation/knowledge/reasoning) *Strong* (str + con), and *Wise* (intuition/knowledge of supernatural powers or beings). The other 5 represent your archetype or class: *Creator* (anyone who makes and repairs), *Expert* (anyone who focuses on knowledge or investigation), *Fighter* (fighting and protecting), *Prowler* (sneaking and manipulating), *Traveler* (from low level skills like running/climbing to vehicles to navigation and geography). Basically, you can roll against both your talent and your archetype if they are relevant and add your successes. So *Smart* *Fighter* could roll against both on a question of tactics/reading opponents/research on warfare, but only against *Fighter* for swinging a sword, and only against "Smart" for researching politics. Obviously, some pairings are going to be quite common, such as Smart Expert, Deft Prowler, and Strong Soldier. Some are rarer: deft expert, for example, has little overlap between quick reflexes and research, although quick reflexes/quick observational skills might be the perfect way to represent a streetwise orphan. You can't use more than one talent or archetype at a time (and by default characters just start with one of each), but you can develop breadth (or "multiclass") by putting experience points into any talent or archetype you desire.

Fun fact, there's a game from the late '70s called RuneQuest which was originally modifying parts of D&D. The flavour of their fantasy world is a lot less scientific and a lot more animistic. As a result, Wisdom, being no different from Intelligence, was swapped out for a stat known as Power. Power is an odd concoction of spiritual strength, luck and favour of the gods and spirits. Charisma became a powerful magic stat as most sources of magic are autonomous beings with personalities and opinions. As a result, it is used to dictate how many spells you can carry as it dictates how many spirits were willing to hang around and how many favours your gods are willing to give you. Additionally, they added a new stat known as Size which improves damage and initiative with melee attacks at high levels and improves your stealth and agility at low levels.

Nice history lesson Good stuff

Call of Cthulhu has Appearance, so there's that. Also, size. One thing that you didn't mention is the way that raw stat numbers worked in 2e (and I believe 1e with unearthed arcana?), with the roll under ability checks (and proficiency checks), which is basically what d100 games use today, adding some kind of level of success measure (WFRP and CoC).

@1:58 my buddies and I loved Boot Hill. I don't remember much except my pal Greg had a sharpshooter named Molasses. :D

Gary Gygax's other role playing game, Dangerous Journeys: Mythus expanded on stats a bit. Each character has a Mental, Physical, and Spiritual TRAIT score. Each Trait is broken down into two CATEGORIES. Each category is further broken down into three ATTRIBUTES. So you start out with a total of 18 ATTRIBUTE scores instead of 6. It actually worked out pretty well for the most part. Attribute scores determine your starting skills and abilities. Your Trait scores determine your current max potential in mental, physical, or spiritual areas. There are no modifiers as used in Dungeons and Dragons. Instead, the Attribute scores do reflect how well you are able to perform any skill. Each Vocation (class) starts out with a base level in certain skills and then adds combinations of attributes to determine the final score, which can be improved over time through study, training, education, experience, and practice (i.e., spending XP to increase the skills).

I kind of liked West End's literal separation of Dexterity and Agility where dexterity is what you used to fiddle around trying to defuse the bomb and agility was what you used trying jump for cover so you don't lose another clone.

I love the way that Frontier Scum handles ability scores. They use 1d4 - 1d4 = the modifier. Gives you a range of -3 to +3. Simple.

Great video Bob! Would love to see more content like this!

I just picked up the Bases & Businesses PDF from ya, as it sounds like a good idea, was really cheap, and I am also a fan of your TY channel! :D

I remember “Comeliness!” It was introduced in an issue of Dragon Magazine, and I happened to pick up that issue. It was our back-in-the-day version of UA. Here’s something you’ll almost never hear. I LIKE how Shadowrun does Abilities. They have eight, essentially the same six as D&D, but with DEX split into Agility (active/offensive) and Reaction (passive/defensive), and WIS split into Willpower (passive/defensive) and Intuition (active/offensive). This keeps either of them; especially in the case of DEX in D&D; from becoming the god stat you can mix-max a whole character build around. Note: When I describe an Attribute as “active/offensive” or “passive/defensive,” I’m speaking in terms of whether you’re rolling with that stat to resolve the outcome of your own intentions, or if the GM is having you roll with that stat to resolve the outcome of forces acting upon you. If you’ve never played Shadowrun, it’s a “Dice Pool” system using only d6s scabbed from your Yahtzee, Parcheesi, Sorry, and Monopoly games. You want the biggest dice pool possible, and each of your stats; Abilities, Skills, and some gear, are true numerical reflections of how many dice they put into your pool. It gets nuts. When I run a game, I bring 68 d6s, split among three dice trays.

I have no idea if this ever occurred to Gygax when coming up with the basic attributes, but it always made sense to me, and I suppose he instinctively came to the same conclusion as many others before him. The whole thing is very elegant. Human nature has been divided into three parts since ancient times. From Plato's tripartite theory of soul: epithymetikon (bodily desires), thymoeides (reflective passions), and logistikon (intellect and thinking), to Freud's personality theory: id (instinct), ego (reality), and superego (morality). It seems you can endlessly break reality down into three parts, especially when it concerns humans, and they will always relate to the three core of the human soul: Body, Heart, and Mind. Guts, heart, and brains. The individual, the culture, and the society. Instincts, feelings, and thoughts. Even the Bible seems to recognize that. Jesus was tempted to turn stone to bread to sate his hunger (Body), to make a public display of power, jumping from the top of the temple to show his pride (Heart), and to accept rulership over every nation without having to go through the pain and humiliation of the cross (Mind). He overcame every one of the three and thus he's said to have been tempted in every aspect of human life. Add to each core an active and a passive aspect, and you get the 6 basic attributes. Body: Strength (Active) and Constitution (Passive). Heart: Dexterity (Active) and Charisma (Passive). Mind: Intelligence (Active) and Wisdom (Passive). You can also note that STR, CON, and DEX are physical attributes, while CHA, INT, and WIS are mental (or metaphysical) attributes. The Heart has one foot in the physical world and the other in the metaphysical world, sitting between the Body and the Mind, like it always does.

The way that I recently learned to differentiate Intelligence and Wisdom is best explained by the difference between Investigation representing intelligence and Perception representing Wisdom. Wisdom is used in quick pace without attention to detail. Intelligence, however, is when you call upon previous experience and lessons previously learned, or paying attention to the the little details. Medicine makes sense for this explanation of wisdom as well, since keeping someone from dying is something that requires quick thinking.

Couple things, even under AD&D and 2E, your attributes played into aspects of rolls and damage. They affected physical damage, they affected your AC, they affected your initiative, they affected your saves. Only when it came to magic, they didn't do as much (outside of your saves). Also, Comeliness didn't come in until 1.5E with Unearthed Arcana, up to that point it was a function of Charisma. In 2E, it was an optional rule and only there if you wanted it, otherwise it fell back to Charisma again for looks.

I may be unhealthily obsessed with this topic, and it's surprisingly hard to find good deep dives on stat design, as a thing. Really good to see a video on it! I have a real beef with D&D's physical abilities - specifically from the perspective of easy readability, and presenting clear archetypes to new players. STR, DEX, CON makes sense for war games (Att / Movement / HP works for units on a battlefield). But for portraying *character* archetypes they're woeful. Ask a new player to imagine a high strength character, and it'll probably be a big, muscled type. Then ask them to imagine a high constitution character and they'll... basically imagine the same person? That's two out of six stats (33% of your conceptual design space) dedicated to the 'big strong guy' archetype, with tons of redundancy and overlap. Meanwhile, DEX is left doing the heavy lifting for everything from archers to monks to fencers to thieves to acrobats to gunslingers. I find it hard to imagine being strong, but not resilient and hardy. So STR/CON doesn't seem like a hugely important distinction to design in such a granular way. On the other hand, I can easily imagine how your ability to do parkour doesn't make you a skilled locksmith or card shark. So DEX feels way too broad. The STR/CON/DEX triangle is also a bit unbalanced in terms of mechanical function. STR is primarily an attack stat, CON is primarily defence, DEX is... both? Admittedly 5e has reigned this in from 3.5's utter dominance of DEX-based dual-wielders, but still: A first-time player will read the above and think "Well, I'll obviously take DEX, then. It does both." How to fix this? In my games, I either: Merge STR and CON into a single "toughness" stat and pair that with DEX. Or I split DEX into two stats, eg. 'agility' and 'finesse', in order to better match the att/def pairing of STR and CON. Does anyone else have thoughts along similar lines? And does anyone know where I could find more in-depth discussion of this part of game design?

Good lesson thank you for the video ☺️

There are three reasons to keep the numbers: 1. They allow you to have a way to roll attributes (even though I personally prefer point-buy, as do many game systems that I play). 2. They allow you to increase them incrementally. In D&D this is done by levelling up or taking Feats that improve an attribute. 3. They allow you to have races, spells, and magical items that increase (or reduce) them by increments (usually +1 or +2). "Basic" D&D had a flat modifier that is more like how it is in 5e. AD&D had tables of all of the effects of each attribute modifier. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution had the most. Intelligence and Wisdom mostly just gave bonus spells to Wizards and Clerics. Charisma had a limit to the number of henchmen and some other modifiers, but in most groups I played was generally a "dump stat" because we usually did not bother with hirelings.

Having played several dozens RPGs, I think the best set of stats in term of completeness and clearness are those from World of Darkness. It's a 3x3 matrix, with Physical, Mental and Social stats, and Power, Finess and Resiliance. So you have 9 stats but each is very clear on what it is and where to look for it. Mental finess is Wits, Social resistance is Composure, Physical Power is Strenght and so on.

Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility and Luck. is a far better Stat layout. I love D&D but always have been a Fallout Fan since the 90s and Luck being a Stat is once of my favorite touches

Love the human evolution/degeneration transcribe into DnD version.

One thing i appreciate about Against the Darkmaster, a retroclone of MERP (with some D&D elements) is that it's dropped ability/stat scores altogether, turning what would be the modifier into a number which plugs directly into skill rolls.

I’ve always thought of intelligence as having general knowledge, gained from books, lectures, or life experiences and wisdom is knowing how to implement that knowledge safely and effectively.

In Korea, tomato is very common in a fruit salad. Meanwhile, low-WIS Americans put pineapple on pizza!

So happy to see daddy rolled a one get a shout out. I really been enjoying his historic walk though of tsr. But again another banger videos from you bob

The old DC Heroes RPG had an interesting array of stats. Each character had 3 Physical Attributes: Dexterity, Strength, and Body, 3 Mental Attributes: Intelligence, Will, and Mind, and 3 Mystical Attributes: Influence, Aura, and Spirit In each category, the first attribute determines your chance to hit with that type of attack, the second determines how much damage you do, and the third is how much of that kind of damage you can take before being knocked out. Outside of combat, you used the same Attributes for skill rolls. If Batman is searching a crime scene for clues, he'd roll based on his Intelligence to see if he found anything, and his Will would determine how much information he gets from it. Very elegant, and no ambiguity about what each stat means or does.

Bonus points for using Andre to illustrate strength. :D

Intelligence is your ability to solve riddles and pussles and thinking in tricky situations. Wisdom is knowing your surroundings and what something is. Intelligence is when you calculating 3×3 and finding the awnser. Wisdom is knowing the awnser is 9.

When I first read about how DND uses the 6 ability scores back in 3rd edition - I was all like "These are the abilities we all need to have in life" and to me it makes sense. People can be strong but not fast or agile or they can be agile but low in stamina. You have smart people all the time who will have a low wisdom score because all they've read is accumulated knowledge. And being popular and good looking and able to interact with on a social level is perfect for Charisma. I think Wisdom is more about sensation as well - intuition versus cold reptilian logic. A high intelligence but low charisma/wisdom character is often putting their foot in their mouth and overlooking obvious solutions. A high wisdom character with average intelligence and low wisdom probably doesn't talk much but is observant and picks opportune moments to spout sage wisdom to a more charismatic person who can lead better whereas a high charisma, low intelligence, average wisdom character will mispronounce words and make mistakes - but by god they are so good at commanding a room/audience and able to own up to anything that could shame em.

At 2.28 the corner text reads: "Nice perception there, bud". Saved you the pausing video game.

I started playing D&D over 40 years ago. I stuck with it from Basic D&D and AD&D all the way through D&D 3.5. I also owned Boot Hill, Star Frontiers, Marvel Super Heroes RPG and a bunch of other stuff that TSR (The grandparents of the game, before Magic the Gathering made Wizards of the Coast so rich they decided to buy it out) So, I've seen a lot of games and stat systems. I've played a few games that had really short stat lists, like BODY, MIND, SPIRIT but I've also played them with 10 or even 15 stats. The reason for all the stats is simple enough: if you are playing a Role Playing Game to Role Play, you frequently find it hard to accept that "This One State" covers so many things. The D&D stats do make a lot of sense. Much more than what you put into this video. Back in the second edition of D&D, (I am pretty sure it was 2nd at this point) they divided the six Stats up into 2 sub-stats. You didn't 'Have' to split your stat, if you didn't want to, but you could, if you wanted to customize your character and make them more interesting or more effective. For instance, your Strength Stat was broken dwon into Muscle and Brawn. One of them affected your damage with a weapon and the ohter determined how much weight you could carry and not be encumbered. If you really wanted to be a damage dealer but were less concerned about carrying a ton of gear on your back, you would shift two of your stat points toward teh Muscle side, subtracting them from your Brown. So you would have a 16 STR for instance, but you would have an 18 Muscle and a 14 Brawn. (2 was the limit) So you could dish out damage as if you had an 18 natural STR but you could only carry gear as if you had a 14 STR. They had division for each stat and they made a lot of sense. WIS was Intuition and Willpower BTW. DEX covered manual dextierity which was just called AIM since that is the part that most people wanted and Agility which affected your AC. Over the years, I've found that people who just want to play for the Beat-em-ups are happy with fewer stats, most of the time, while people who want to really have a defined character to Role Play with are happier with a few more stats that make things make more sense. (Just because your Character has big bulging muscles like a weight lifter, doesn't mean he can run a marathon, or up six flights of stairs, or dodge an arrow, or shrug off a taser. Just because you can do a SUDOKU in ninety seconds doesn't mean you know how to talk to girls or can determine when the shop keeper is lying to you about the quality of the product. Character archetypes tend to have contradictory elements that don't make sense unless you can show how they differ. The skinny rogue who can't pick up the portcullis but knows how to unlcok it with a sliver of metal.. or who can dodge arrows because they are wiry and nimble... Speaking of which, you could have someone who was a Fat, Slow, Rogue who was still a master locksmith with all of those stats back then... tougher to do now. If you have a +5 Dex mod, you have to accept that someone who can pick a lock can also dodge arrows even if they are missing a leg. (Well OK, I suppose missing a leg probably ges you a special circumstance penalty, but you see what i mean.) Being able to manipulate things with your hands does not automatically translate to being agile. Being Stubborn doesn't mean you make wise decisions or are empathic. Just because you are physically attractive, doesn't mean you know how to win over a crowd of people wit your words.

I run a homebrew system that's evolved over many versions and I've weeded out all the stuff I found doesn't actually add to the game. My most recent cut was all of the stats. As it turns out, you don't need them. Everyone is going to build their character in a certain way to optimize their "power set" and at the end, everyone is rolling with roughly the same modifiers for everything they do. The fact that there is a modifier is superfluous since it all equals out in the end. It's an additional step with additional math and rules that if you just drop it altogether, it changes nothing in actual game play other than everything goes faster and is easier to understand.

That poster above your computer was the cover of the very first Dragon Magazine I ever owned (it was a Christmas gift from a friend who has now passed away). Anyway, Perception was an ability score that appeared in Dragon 133 which resurfaced many years later as the Senses Score in Gamma World 4th Edition. When Greg Stafford made Runequest he added a Size stat, replaced Wisdom with Power, and Charisma with Appearance (much like Comeliness, just not as disruptive) and Call of Cthulhu added Luck and Education. And Social Status was an ability score in both Traveller and later in "A Mighty Fortress" for AD&D 2nd. Ars Magica divided Charisma into Presence and Communication AND Dexterity into Dexterity and Reflexes (that last division made it into ShadowRun and Mechwarrior). White Wolf used the same physical stats as D&D, but had a trio of Social and Mental Stats. Buck Rogers XXVc (which used 2nd Edition AD&D as its Engine) added a Technological Knowledge (TECH) as a stat. And AD&D 2nd: Skills and Powers used subabilities Strength was divided into Muscle and Stamina, Dexterity into Aim and Balance, Constitution into Health and Fitness, Intelligence into Reason and Knowledge, Wisdom into Intuition and Willpower, and Charisma into Leadership and Appearance.

Hey Bob, thanks for the video.

Im personally fond of the explanation that charisma is the ability to exert your will, whether that be on people for talking or on the universe for spellcasting.

Inteligence is knowing the entrace ahead would be a GREAT place for a trap. Wisdom is knowing how to spot the trap

The secondary benefit of hirelings is also, well as you saw on that blackmoor character sheet, old D&D is pretty deadly so when you died you got to take over one of your hirelings (whose max level is one less than yours, as they also gained XP). I also use some of my hirelings to help run my fighters castle in a OSE game we are playing right now, they also had a loyalty score which the DM rolled each month so they might leave and you looked for new ones.

I like brawn/speed/smarts/charm as abilities (with varying synonyms depending on setting). I see those as the main approaches one might take to problems; brute force, being quick and nimble, thinking about it, or getting someone else to to help you out. Complemented with a bunch of skills.

bit of off topic but, bob shouted out seth skorkowsky two times in the video. I honestly recommend his channel. he is an ttrpg reviewer and content creator. while most of his reviews are not dnd (mainly Call of Cthulhu and Traveler amongst others) He does post interersting things like RPG Philosophy, where he discusses aspects of the game, from why murder hobo's exist how to deal with them, too how to deal with metagaming. he also posts good system neutral advise on playing ttrpg's, like backstories or player etiquette

I've been working on a game for a couple years now (I need to playtest this thing at some point lol). It's intended to run action/adventure stories, maybe with sci-fi or fantasy elements, dealer's choice, but the conceit is that the events are happening within a Hollywood movie. Therefore, the three 'ability scores' are Screen Presence (Charisma/Will), Genre Savvy (Intelligence/Wisdom), and Stunts (Stunts)

I like the shift to: "learning how to have more fun playing RPGs together." I don't play DnD and don't indend to ever. But I consume a lot of DnD content, because it is such a huge community with lots of great input from people.

Man... What a great work you've been doing around here, uh? Just found out your channel and love your style, it's like my table: we make the rules after all, let's have fun. I started DnD at 3rd edition, and played other ones before, like the White Wolf universe. And after all this time, they're all almost the same rules, it's about the fantasy!

World of Warcraft (the RPG I am most familiar with) has 5 main stats: Strength, Agility (instead of Dexterity), Intellect (instead of Intelligence and Wisdom), Stamina (instead of Constitution), and Spirit (instead of Charisma). However, these stats of attributes don't work like they do in D&D at all, since they don't do dice rolls. Instead, Strength increases your character's melee damage and is the primary attribute for classes that focus on melee, like Warriors; Intellect increases your mana pool and magic damage and is the primary stat for casting classes like Mages; Agility increases ranged damage and the ability to dodge and is the main stat for ranged classes like Hunters; Stamina increases the amount of hot points and is therefore very useful for all classes, but especially tanks; and Spirit, the least useful state, which mainly just increases how fast your mana regenerates. There is no need for a stat like Charisma, since characters can't persuade anyone else to do anything. There are also lots of different secondary stats (too many, in my opinion).

Lol. Love the Moses shot XD

Intellect is about knowing, Wisdom is about knowing when to use the information that you know

Thanks for noticing my perception and awareness.

The most interesting stats system I ever saw was from this indie RPG (whose name I unfortunately forget) I played at a convention once. The creator mapped the stats to body parts. "Head" was your stat for knowledge checks and perception/investigation, and I think social checks, but the scenario didn't have many opportunities for the latter. "Torso" was anything stamina related, the ability to resist damage, poison, etc.. "Arms" was generally anything more fine motor control/hand-eye coordination related, like fighting, shooting, throwing, crafting, picking locks and pockets, etc. "Legs" was anything gross motor control related, like jumping, climbing, swimming, stealth, running. (I think there was also a "Spirit" stat that represented luck, willpower, resistance to mental attacks, and possibly magic ability but the scenario we played didn't have magic.) But you could negotiate in cases of overlap, like arguing your Arms could be useful in a climbing check. I only played the one game with it but it was interesting enough that I'd be curious to see the design used again.

I recently broke down some stats for a Dnd inspired game just for fun: Strength- Damage for melee weapons Dexterity- Hit rates for weapoms Agility- Avoidance Spirit- Willpower/Magic Awareness- Perception Intelligence- Knowledge Skills/Spells Known Charisma- Social skills

Yes! Shout out to Daddy Rolled a 1. An amazing channel!

I'd like to share a way i used to solve some Stat ishues; when i used to be a Master in D&d games i would always ask the players to roll for Two Atributes at a time, like "Rol Str and Dex" when they would attack and so on. For everu combination of Stats i gave a name, that would automatically create like other 15 "stats"or so. Worked pretty well :3

How cute is the Mausritter book with the treehole cover? 😍

Comeliness in the 1e Unearthed Arcana was a glorious hot-mess. Racial Modifiers were all based on human standards, so even dwarves thought each other were ugly, while everyone wanted to bone an elf (which I suppose is true). Then Charisma modified it further. So while all the other stats had the usual 3-18 bell curve, Comeliness was all over the place. It wasn't too difficult to have a PC with a 22 Comeliness which caused a spell-like fascination on you. Most players probably used it as a dump stat (at super-low level people attacked you for being so hideous) but we always had at one PC who was overpowered hot.

Oh I see you played DC20 by the dungeons coach ;). I hope this game becomes big !! Good video as always

For the MUD I was designing before my current D&D campaign I wanted to create my own system. I don't think it would work on a table but on a game where the PC is secretly rolling dice it does. I did it as follows. Physical Attributes Strength - Physical ability to lift, drag, or pull objects. Fortitude - External ability to withstand pain or damage, ie scratches upon the flesh or a punch. Constitution - Internal ability to withstand pain or damage, ie poisons ingested or sickness. Dexterity Attributes Coordination - Hand eye coordination, ie balance, ability to react, and grace. Quickness - Speed and swiftness, ie speed at which someone runs or how fast they can react. Awareness - Ability to perceive one's surroundings, ie spotting something or ability to notice something that can be reacted to. Mental Attributes Intelligence - Theoretical knowledge, ie academic pedigree and amount of subjects or skills known. Wisdom - Empirical knowledge, ie life experience and amount of knowledge about a subject or skill. Intuition - Creativity, ie realization of an opportunity, random inspiration and luck. Attractiveness Attributes Beauty - Physical attractiveness, ie first impressions based on appearance or physical presence. Charisma - Social attractiveness, ie impressions made based on dialog or after prolonged contact. Cool - Ability to remain calm under pressure, ie not crying due to a wound or ability to deal with mental stress. Magic Attributes Power - This attribute is hidden from the player and represents the player's magical abilities from birth. Control - This attribute is hidden from the player and represents the player's ability to control their magical abilities. Spellcraft - This attribute is hidden from the player and represents the player's knowledge of magic.

Whoa, can we get more info on that character skill sheet you shared at 10:32?? I'd love to have the whole document. ❤

I always used to describe mental stats like this Int: The ability to process and understand information. One's ability to learn information and handle a lot of information Wis: Is one's resolution of will. The Will/Resilience half of Willpower. One's ability to resist temptation or intuitively know better Cha: The "Power" half of willpower. One's ability to influence and assert its desires over others and the world around them. In the case of the Bard and Sorcerer, sometimes outright warping the world around them

I always liked how german TTRPG DSA did stats: dex is split into manual dexterity (picking locks, crafting, complicated handmotions) and agility (flips and sneaking), courage is it's own stat and the wisdom analog is called intuition to clearly show what it means. your attack stats combine from three of those, swinging a sword needs courage,agility and strength. shooting a bow needs strength, dex and intuition etc. the System can be a bit clunky but I like that different attributes are needed for a single action and you are free to specalize into one or keep them even. As a DM I usally tried to reference that. the elven fighter is an elegant swordsman where the dwarf just puts all his power into the strike and another human fighter is never afraid to trade blows with opponents and trust in his armor to take the hit.

the RPG I'm playing at the moment uses might, dexterity, willpower and insight. pretty self explanatory, those! also, these stats don't have modifiers, but die sizes, so if you have a higher score, you roll a bigger die!

I was hoping you would include the AD&D 2nd Edition sub-ability list! I always found those quite useful in explaining the normal abilities :)