As a student, I've noticed that social media is more like stereotypical movie highschool than any place I've attended. It has all of the cliques, drama, bullying and toxic behavior featured in those movies. IRL school is a lot more chill. People mostly keep to themselves nowadays
It's a full-on different gen these days and it's honestly weird to me who is 26 and just feeling like everyone today cannot imagine a world without the internet being a factor. To me, the world is still the same but it's just a lot of people that change around it.
@@mrmoviemanic1 i can imagine a world without internet personally- not very well but- i just dont think i could instantly adjust or that our world would go back to that kids playing in the park, a knock or two on your door every now and then from your friends, some books to read, some work to do, some board games with family, some nights at a firepit... i think i could see it
@@PersephoneDarling28 being an inclusionist and excluding people who dislike you or are mad at u for literally existing is perfectly valid. I'd say despite this video topic the queer community is considered one of the most inclusive communities. It excludes bigots though. Radical inclusivity can and *should* be including everyone and every label that isn't hurting others. Those people are hurting others. They're hurting you, and your community. Personally i don't use the inclusive label or anything but i tend to fit that category, and trust me when i say you don't have to roll over and let people hurt you for the sake of inclusivity.
I just want you to know I misread the title as "Why is Queer Dinosaurs so toxic" and it took me a while to realize you were not going to talk about some show I never heard of.
I am pleased to announce to you that the amazing author named Chuck Tingle has written books about queer dinosaurs. (The one that's riffing on Harry Potter is especially fantastic.)
One thing that pisses me off the most about online discourse - is constant demand to “act” - now, fast and a lot. Like “there’s a problem - act now!!” - NO. It’s a for sure a way to become a part of evil. Why: because you don’t have a decent amount of time to actually think about what you doing. It makes a lot of fuzz and pointless “wide gestures” that sometimes not only do not help, but make things worse.
I joined twitter when I was 12 because I had no queer community. I found one. It made me miserable. It made me act in ways, say things, and believe things I regret. I'm honestly still recovering from the way it all warped my mind. I left twitter during the pandemic, and now I have a small community of real friends who make me happy. Definitely recommend.
This is how I feel about old Tumblr 😭 I got wrapped up so bad in 2013/2014 purity culture queer Tumblr bc… Tumblr is a lot of how I accepted that I was queer! But then I became such a jerk, both online and in real life, because that’s how I was learning to socialize as a teen, and it literally took me so long to get comfortable talking to people again because I was always just mentally picking over everything I was saying with a fine-tooth comb for any possible bad-faith take someone could have about how I chose my words. So miserable.
Happy Pride Month!!! Unless if their on the internet... That's enough Twitter, and Tumblr, and whatever that Tik-tok thing is. Enough I say!! It's horrid as it is with even *_just three_* of them!!! Anyways, Happy Pride Month!!!
This was the gentlest, most informative way to say it's better for everyone if we touch more grass, haha. Never been a fan of purity culture- I left the church I was indoctrinated into so I could get away from all those things and try to be more of myself. I hope we can somehow largely get past this. Thanks for all of the info sources at the end- I can't wait to check them out.
Happy Pride Month!!! I hope for you that all that Purity Culture and that Radical Feminism and all those Scoldy and Naggy online people and all those annoying Inflammatory Internet people and all of those self-centralized gay/queer people and ... well, I guess just swing open and never go back to knock you in the heiny, like my grandparents' door!!
@@marnenotmarnie259 I think that all of this stuff about purity and puritanism and other stuff like this is a little more complex and nuanced then some people, LGBTQ+ or not say it is, and it is overblowed and over-indulged so to speak sometimes, but you are still right generally speaking and this is still a big topic that needs more attention, understanding, and better conclusions. I guess with that out of the way, have a Happy Pride Month! Or a Happy 'Wrath' Month, as some say that the Month of July is a Month of Wrath, or at least so they say I suppose. Have any type of a good Queer/Gay Month though, either way!!
Romans is not referring to Eunuchs where one partner is transgender. 🏳️🌈 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender. It's even in the Bible. Yes, the bible was written by bigoted men and is way outdated and was changed and should be thrown out. But even Jesus spoke about transgender people. Eunuchs made that way by others were abused (it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused). Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex characteristics but opposite in regards to gender. Notice, God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships. Eunuchs are same sex couples. One partner is transgender. Transgender is when someone is born with a gender opposite the sex characteristics normally associated with that gender. God made us male or female, determined by gender, located in the brain. Your gender is located in your brain and determined at birth. I have an identical twin sister that is female in gender. I am male in gender. I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6 and that means any discrepancies in the bible are ultimately decided by me. Plus, it states in Deuteronomy that nobody was castrated back then. And that doesn't make sense anyhow. No one is born castrated and no one is born making the decision to be celibate. But, that is what God wanted the lying preachers to think so they wouldn't take it out of the bible. Intersex people still have one gender or another because gender is located in your brain. And Acts 3:22-23 says it will come to pass that anyone that fails to listen to me will be utterly destroyed from among the people. So anyone that says different than this won't be here much longer. It's everyone's choice. .. Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing or getting paid in any way to minister will also die with the wicked. Peter 2:9 says we are ALL ministers.....
I recently went to an event by The Generations Project and they had a bunch of queer elders telling stories about their past - one of them was an activist with the Gay Liberation Front and told us about how the gay men wouldn't let the lesbians lead, so they ended up doing their own thing and she literally told a mafia man with a gun pointed at her head that she didn't care how much he threatened her. I definitely think things like these that get us in community with our elders would be a big part of the solution.
Problem with stories is that they're just stories if there are no receipts. People love to talk themselves up seeking admiration from others. Then there's the fact that aging people have less relevancy in the world and are desperate to maintain whatever amount they have and so will do what they must to keep it. We can't ignore basic human nature that exists in everyone regardless of their orientation.
Even if it is anecdotal, it is perhaps something to note that perhaps the queer community does not face the *utterly rabid bigotry* that existed 40-60 years ago. Now the bigots they face are more two-faced, more calculated and good at hiding in its own invite-only pockets, which creates this potentially nitpicky or self-accusatory culture which at its core is attempting to decipher how best to be polite and well-mannered to others.
I think part of the issue when it comes to toxic queer discourse online is it’s the same things coming up over and over again. As people age up and learn the younger people who haven’t learned yet move in and keep it going. This plays off what the right wing talking points of any given year are as well. The popularity of reactionary content isn’t helping either.
I remember one older trans person on Reddit apologize for her generation for not doing more to build a community and pass things down. It's true, once we find the understanding that works for us we leave the communities we found and just live life.
Ive always maintained that most of the people who continue the “discourse cycle” are literally kids. I know i was, i was like 15, so i do have a degree of empathy for them - its like, one day you will grow up and leave your room and find irl friends, so its kind of okay, once youre no longer a child getting sucked into the algorithm youll go outside and not care so much anymore. Its a bit of a “baby gay” grace period for me
Reactionary content also rewires our brain thru neuroplasticity to react with emotion over logic. The content out there is also just very bleh honestly.
If it makes you feel any better? I used to follow some of that reactionary content too and I’m a black male who has always been described as intelligent. (Even though I’m not that smart.) I got out. A lot of us end up getting out. Like a LOT of us. Because the truth is : most people are educated and think critically enough to realize how stupid that shit is.
@Sappho So what you're saying is that this issue will likely never go away? I almost feel like people are going to start to find more and more ridiculous things to get offended by and label as hate speech. The last like 4-5 years, things have gotten actually insane. If I understand you correctly, you're saying it's just going to get worse?
this is so good. i've been saying for a while that people are way too obsessed with comebacks and pettiness. twitter was bad enough and then tiktok took it to whole other level. they leave absolutely no room for perceived error, and if you used to believe something different to what you believe now you are automatically a horrible person. there's no forgiveness, no room to grow, and *no* genuine discussion. what's the point of that??? it only pushes people away :(
Exactly!! What's the point of calling someone out if you wont let them change. Essentially letting someone change than punishing them is the better option in most cases.
i came out as trans on tumblr in the early 2010s and i really do wish i had been more connected to the people around me (cis and trans) rather than burning bridges and convincing myself that everyone must secretly hate and misgender me. i'm so much happier now, connected to the people around me and having zero arguments on the internet
i love and appreciate the reminder that any petty argument anyone is having on the internet has been hashed and rehashed countless times over the past several decades and will not find resolution on an unmediated social media platform
Honestly. I as a gay man felt very isolated for most of my life. I'm masc and live in a rural community with little internet access until recently. I feel really disconnected with most online queer/gay discourse. I do my best but I don't understand most of it. It seems a lot more angry then I would hope for.
when i was younger i thought we all learned things as a culture, like "peak arguments have been made, everyone gets that X is wrong right? cool, next progressive step forward!" but seeing the same arguments made online year after year (sometimes escalating) freaks me out, like we'll never escape the quicksand of the same base talking points and it's the end of mean girls over and over again.
idk if it makes it better or worse but we’ve been arguing the same points since before the internet too. trickle-down economics were invented in the 1930s, disproven by others within a couple of years, and we’ve been arguing about them for almost a century still. i think people undervalue education and it’s superpower that is *finishing* a conversation
I recently cut contact with a friend who would weaponise her knowledge on queer, feminism, mental health, social justice issues & terminology to manipulate and emotionally abuse me. She would gaslight me, set traps so she could tear me down, undermine or devalue me. I felt like I was walking on eggshells and had to moderate everything about myself & what I said. I’m extremely leftist and I was raised in that environment with many queer family and friends, yet she would constantly try and reframe me as problematic and bigoted. Because she was so up on the language, aggressive and so righteous, it was like a cover for her narcissism and toxicity. All I want to say is that there are terrible people in every community and I hope nobody else has to go through this sort of abuse. You Can and Should call it out if you see/feel it, no matter if they seem amazing, positive, or ‘morally superior’ on the outside 💕
Wow that reminds me exactly of the people on Twitter who constantly look for something that content creators are saying to find something that could be interpreted as bad.
"Queer Twitter" is so incredibly twee and sanitized and it aggravates me so much lol. I think the trend that pisses me off the most is the way people on it talk about learning and growing as people where it's always like fucking carrd infographics or whatever that present themselves as the sole and unambiguous correct take on whatever issue, or people saying they "dont know" why something is good or bad and need someone to tell them. It feels like instead of a community of distinct people its just supposed to be a totally homogenized group with the same thoughts, manners of speaking, etc and the goal of discourse is to determine who has the right to "inform people" what the truth is instead of hosting a community of individuals that are allowed to, like, disagree? It's totally antithetical to what queer spaces and communities ought (at least in my opinion to be): places where you get to learn that there's more than one correct way of being a person, and that you don't have to blandly assimilate into what (cishet) society thinks a successful life, relationship, or identity is. This sort of sanitized, homogenized community and society is literally the thing we've been fighting to move away from. It's part of why I just don't use any public social medias and stick to Discord, which for all its faults at least (like the old forums, or at least what they allegedly were like...) hosts communities that avoid cycling through the same 5 insipid arguments about what labels are valid to put in your bio or whatever. The worst one imo is the stuff about the "toothpaste flag" or whatever people call the blue and green one that's supposed to represent mlms, like I literally cannot conceive of a more pointless thing to argue about. okay rant over lol. on a more positive note your cat is adorable! i hope they are never forced to read 280 characters worth of debate over flag color schemes
fr now it’s a bunch of infighting. my takeaway from this vid? get off twitter and go outside more. or at least make an effort to not engage with the discourse. but god that is so much harder than it sounds unfortunately.
@@deletedkneecaps everyone believes their experience is the true experience. If people would just accept that people experience sexuality differently, a lot of this infighting would stop.
Even though I don't have a twitter account I've seen this situation happen irl, and it actually made me despise ideas I (mostly) agree with now. People getting "brainwashed" by an ideology, to the point where they repeat quotes and share infographics without ever think of why they're saying/posting it, just gets old and honestly I doubt it solves any problems.
@@Nakia11798 The second you realize self-ID works fine (and filters itself because only the genuine and I guess the insane Harry Potter sockpuppet cabals would dedicate months and years of their lives caring about something they identify as/with) it's SUCH a load off. So is realizing that it works like going "I'm a Getter Robo fan". No one can really argue that you AREN'T (unless they're gatekeeping and that's just stupid baby behavior) so might as well take it as is instead of fighting about it, it's just a common trait you got with some others that helps you recommend cool stuff you've seen about that. Also the moment you realize that all the labelling things is just people finding new words to describe things and no different from "this specific shade of red is called vermillion and it's slightly different from scarlet and cherry red", that also helps a lot with understanding *why* there's bunches of labels and sub-sub-sub-categories. (As a writer I do like me some niche terms, because sometimes you need that specific word for a literary punch instead of a small cloud of word slaps.)
"Purity works on a logic of exclusion. It can only be maintained by continuously purging the impure." This is such an important observation. It applies to all social movements and groups. It is all about unity, not exclusion. Working people of all countries unite! + Queer people of all countries unite! and so on
And this is also why I can't support Essence of Thought. Their entire drama platform is purity culture (made worse by the fact that they are one of the few prominent atheist trans voices out there). And the fact that they explain away trans people opposing their ideas too by saying that it must be internalized transphobia (even though, quite frankly, there are far better arguments for internalized racism affecting the way black people talk about white privilege with regards to childrearing) also gets me - it means they can conveniently brush any trans people opposed to their behavior as "they must secretly believe they are less than human". I don't think someone like Rachel Oates doing outreach and refusing to talk about sports because it's not their main interest, and having talked to a transphobe in the past and stopped working with that person, amounts to seeing trans people as less than human. And I don't think it's fair either to claim that every time someone self-harms in response to an Internet campaign of harassment it must be "weaponization" - sometimes mental illnesses happen to strike at a time that manipulators also use to fake feelings. And usually manipulators don't wait a month or two for their views to dip before weaponizing or invoking self-harm. And that attitude is hurtful to me too - I've had attacks of mental illness at a time a manipulator might utilize, and hearing about stuff like that makes me feel awful about myself when that happens. And it's not even in response to insulting a trans person, because I never did that - I heard a lot of boys do that in middle school but never did it myself. Though I am sure Essence of Thought would find it easy to twist a story I had about a kid I knew of who I am sure was trans, where my own confusion about the kid's gender (I was a kid myself at the time) made it hard to connect. Never mind that my own issue with that kid could have been solved simply by me knowing about trans and social transitioning as a kid in the first place (and if I knew, she would have known too, and picked a new name). And the fact that this channel goes after NeuroClastic bothers me too - that platform is itself one of the few explicitly queer-friendly neurodiversity coalitions out there, and they are working against the Judge Rotenberg Center, which isn't technically a concentration camp but might as well be in spite of its pretty veneer. And they go after them because they platformed one middle-of-the-road person who said one or two problematic thing about black people twice, and platformed many more explicitly pro-queer and anti-racist stuff lots of times, and even published a much-needed article drawing a parallel between ABA and fundamentalist religion.
Yeah, unite . . . but if it starts to be more like a demand to "conform," then I say "untie!" I think it's probably better to unionize on the basis of shared humanity . . . if you concentrate on just one small facet of your identity, it's too easy to exclude everyone else from your sympathies. Keyhole compassion makes hypocrites of us all.
And then the fact is that nothing unites like a common enemy. The most extreme example I can think is how in Finnish continuation war Finnish Jews fought along side of the German n*zis against the red fascists. I bet most of the descendants of those Finnish war heroes who live on the happiest country on the planet which never went trough the oppression and genocide the soviet occupation would have brought really question the decision on which such situation was formed. And make no mistake. I am more than happy that the n*zis lost WW2. I hate fascist regardless of the nationality or branding they come in. At that particular period in the larger era they were just very useful in achieving my nations goals of survival against reasonable traidoffs and risks. This is extreme example of course but I think it effectively shows critical failure of current idealist purity politics. You and your movement absolutely can use morally grey or even down right bad people to do good things. Of course you have to keep them under a watchful eye and maybe at some point kick them out like Finns did to the German, (who then in turn burned most of our Lapland’s infrastructure). But condemning immensely powerful allies for some minor mistakes in word choices or something like this is literally putting all of us at risk. And then to help this problem instead of attacking the real enemies we use our purity politics to abuse the most vulnerable members of this in group for their perceived offences. It feels bit hopeless.
@@nonniperkl6273 Yep, exactly. When other people (middle point/neutral/uncategorized, even questioning people) say online queer discourse sounds "f*cist", they're talking about this purity and we tend to assume automatically they're trolls. All of this while us repeating "first they came for the communists and I didn't speak out blahblahblah".
i couldn't hold in laughter - "working on farms and touring with your band" is a such an incredibly montreal thing to talk about at a dead gay bar. i think about 40% of the lgbts in this city have done both of those
As a male het POC, I have felt similar about this in nearly all progressive pursuits. We often look to be comforted by our own individual echo chambers where people don't question our individual beliefs unfortunately. I hope we can all learn to engage with allies who may challenge ourselves so we can all learn together and build more unity. If one of us becomes oppressed, we all become oppressed.
That can only happen offline. Echo chambers form too easily on the internet. But many now are afraid to deal with people offline, IN PERSON. Because one has to learn to deal with their beliefs being challenged in the REAL world. My generation messed up and let the internet raise y'all.
I came out as gay in the 80's. Life was much simpler then. No internet. Gay Pride Day (as it was known back then) was one day/weekend, and if you didn't live in an area with a gay bar/bookstore -- there was no real "community". Gay men and lesbians seemed more united back then because we had a common goal: to live our lives they way we wanted without getting fucked with by family, employers, landlords and neighbors. We wanted to be able to marry who we chose. We wanted to be able to walk down the street with our partners without people hurling insults (and possibly also bricks) at us. Instead of fighting or debating one another, we should be working together.
My working theory is since the gay rights movement culminating in the marriage equality act in the mid 2010's, fighting to be "seen" or "justified' had become so baked into the gay community's identity that they've felt the need to expand and fight over issues that have little justification even worrying about; especially if you look at reactionary queer/trans politics today. And I say this as a gay borderline millennial/gen z (Old enough to have had a flip phone, but young enough to be obsessed with snapchat lol.)
You’re completely right. I’m aromantic and asexual and I literally had to stop using tiktok because so many people on there brought back the “asexuals/aromatics don’t belong in the community/face no oppression” discourse. As an aroace who has experienced discrimination countless times for being aroace, seeing this discourse over and over just made me feel horrible and ashamed of my queerness. It stressed me out and made me feel like I had to constantly defend my place in this community. It made me feel uncomfortable at pride and in queer spaces because I felt like I wasn’t queer enough to be there, or as if I was taking advantage of queer resources. Ever since I have left tiktok, I’ve felt a lot happier and comfortable with myself and I finally feel like I truly belong in this community.
Woahh I'm sorry that you had to go through all that. I'm also aroace so I can relate, though I never joined Tiktok nor Twitter as from what I've heard they seem to be a cesspoll of toxicity. Just dropping by and I'm glad you feel better now :)))
I'm straight but thought I was heteroromantic and asexual for about two years during high school (was very sex-repulsed, not due to trauma or anything). Back then, I had never considered myself LGBT+ because I just hadn't thought about it. When an aroace friend in undergrad, 1-2 years after I realized I am not asexual, told me that some people online say ace people aren't LGBT+, my first reaction upon thinking about it was 'That doesn't make sense. They're not heteroromantic and/or heterosexual, of course they are LGBT+'. I know from personal experience that asexual people are treated like they don't know what they're experiencing or that they are abnormal. I had many conversations with people who laughed at me or tried to convince me that 'meeting the right person' or 'being in love' (yeah, yikes) would make me want to have sex. I had to explain what asexuality even was to everyone I ever spoke to about it except for one. Some people looked at me like I was crazy when I said that romantic and sexual inclinations can be separate... It is a bit tragicomic, but a lot of these people were liberal-leaning girls and I can't imagine them making these same points to a sapphic woman. A lot of people do not know anything about asexuality, and it was so much worse back in 2013-2014. It was not meeting someone or falling in love that made my mind. In fact, around the time I realized that I might just be straight, I hadn't had a crush on anyone for about 1.5 years, and didn't like anyone else for another year. I just thought about whether I experienced sexual attraction towards other people or not, and the answer was that it might be rare but it happened. I am eternally grateful for the label asexual. It in itself provided no suffering to me, and it helped me make sense of what I was feeling as a teenager towards sexuality. Except for ignorance and idiocy on the part of other people, this was a wholly positive experience. Anyone who says that asexuality is not a queer identity has clearly never experienced life or conversation as an out ace person...
@@TheLuckyBubu Hey, just want to say thanks for sharing your understanding and glad you figured yourself out :)) I feel like sharing, if you don't mind. I also have experiences of people telling me I haven't found the right person yet, etc., but interestingly, I only got this type of reaction when I go straight to the definition of ace/aro. Whenever I mention the label first, people would start looking at me weird and speak in disgust despite me explaining to them what they actually meant. For most people in my country, anything affiliated with LGBTQA+ would instantly be ruled out to homosexuality only. As my country is very religious, you can expect most of the population is homophobic as well, hence the disgusted look. I'd like to think of them as religiously homophobic, as the vocal ones would use their religion to condemn LGBTQA+ people rather than practice the kindness taught by their religion lmao Personally, it's easier for me to answer with lighthearted jokes or just say I'm too lazy to take care of someone extra. It's really easy to blend in the crowd with these ways, so I understand how could people say ace/aro people 'face no discrimination'. After all, disinterest is more common than unusual interest... Well, life still sucks for me even if others can't see why, of course.
@@nama9924 Oh, of course I don't mind! Definitely not after my straight rambling... :D Thank you for sharing your experience. It is definitely interesting and I hope that it is not too bad since you mention that you are in a very conservative society. If you don't mind me asking, which country are you from? I am Turkish but my experiences of explaining things to people were mostly in Canada to other Turks/Europeans. I agree that if you are not telling people your specific identity, you can go undetected as an ace person pretty well. Which I didn't mind, that was probably what helped it not be a huge issue for me. I also didn't like to talk about it with everyone (especially after people kept telling me strategies to fix me), also didn't think about it unless the topic of relationships came up. But I understand that not everyone is the same and also, when you deliberately hide it due to a fear of social reaction or lack of understanding, it can take a psychological toll on you. This is what a lot of acephobic people who are themselves queer seem to not understand. I think it's best to be cautious and to come out only when it's safe and you have some level of financial independence from bigoted parents and such. You are very right about some people thinking being LGBT+ means you are gay. A lot of people assumed that I was a lesbian. I think not dating boys was a part of it, but I have been told that my loud demeanor was another one. Because people assume that lesbians are all a certain type... I like to joke that it's hard to be a queer-coded straight person :D I think that when people from a conservative society realize that someone's not conforming to heteronormative expectations, such as not dating someone of another gender or marrying or having sex, they 'clock' them as queer in their minds but because other queer identities are not as known, they assume that the person is gay.
@@TheLuckyBubu I'm from Indonesia and the interaction I mentioned was from fellow Indonesians. Not all of them are conservatives, but you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that could perceive things outside conservative religious ideas here, even if the person themself claims to be liberal and not religious. The way of thinking in binaries is so indoctrinated here that most don't even know what critical thinking is... You put it to words! I was trying to write how allo queer people don't seem to understand that a-spec people blending in still take toll on us mentally, but as you can see I didn't manage to express it well lmao I feel that these people are trapped to the same "If I can't relate to you, your struggles are not real" mindset homophobes have. I find it peculiar how they oppose each other but follow the same pattern of thinking anyway lmaooo It would only be a miracle if they notice that someday. Anyway, I agree about gaining independence before coming out, but given the severe discrimination in my country, I'd rather come out fully if I could move abroad. The way people easily look down to others that are different than them is no joke here, even if the difference is simply which city you grew up in! Ohh I also have that experience. I am agender, but more comfortable representing myself masculinely. I cut my hair real short just because I was getting annoyed waiting for it to dry after every wash, and this girl came up to me and rudely ask if I'm a lesbian because of it! I would never understand why one would feel compelled to ask someone's sexuality (except if they wanted to date you... which this person clearly was not.) It's even more tiring when I got the gist that they think trans people must be binary and they are basically gay people desperately want their attraction to opposite gender more acceptable to society by transitioning. It was a trip trying to explain to them that gay trans people exists lmao
Not to be an absolute simp but I'm feeling a pretty similar way to you and "the discourse" has me similarly fatigued. I've made some new gay friends in real life and they're pretty cool for the most part. Do they make certain cringe takes? Yep. Are they constantly talking about it and arguing about drag queens reading nursery rhymes for kids? NOPE! I'm mainly just bored of this impossibly high standard I have had of others and just am trying to meet people where they're at now.
It is a genuine relief when IRL queer people aren't as picky, persnickety, and easy-to-offend as vocal people online, and actually have a sense of humor.
I can highly recommend Not-Going-On-Social-Media as a good move. I joined my local bisexual collective since I left twitter, and it's so nice to have long-form conversations with people after years of just trying to be pithy, and get one over on someone. Unless you live somewhere with incredibly restrictlve laws, you probably have a local queer community too, and being part of it is so good
@@yasminechoerryscherry3701 My heart goes out to you, and every other lgbt person in a similar situation. I can only imagine how difficult that is for you. I hope we can change the world, so you can find your community 💜
@@gingganggoolie Thank you for your kind words 🩷 I honestly wish we would stop having stupid fights inside the community when we should all be united I plan to move to another country soon so I hope things will get better
When I felt particularly lost in my gender (and by proxy, sexuality) during early pandemic, I actually stumbled upon a lot of bi history. Not only did this help with my gender and sexuality (now being a trans bisexual), it made me feel immensely more grounded in the _existence_ of queerness. It was the first time I've ever felt like that after being out for nearly a quarter of my life. And I say this bc I am currently 18, and most of the queer "community" I was exposed to in my early out days was online and extremely harmful to how I thought about myself. I made myself- a person with an extraordinary complex and messy relationship to queerness- fit into a pure little box that did not and will never work for me. After learning about the history, in all it's flaws and idiosyncrasies, it made me feel much more ok and welcomed in just existing. Seeing the resilience and early discussions about fluidity in identity just made me feel happy.
I feel you. I started discoursing about queer stuff as a very young teen and ended up in some super reactionary places that was really me just practicing a form of self-harm because I am trans and they were very transphobic (we're talking like TERFs and transmeds) and I really believe my rescuers were Leslie Feinberg and Riki Anne Wilchins. I wish I could meet Leslie to tell hir what an inspiration ze's been to me.
@@isaacthomas6544 we must have the same life bc this is exactly what happened to me. I'm pretty sure I joined in on those bc I _was_ a trans person that wasn't within the binary and just refused to let myself admit it. Fortunately I remember stumbling across a video that said something along the lines of "why do you care if some is gender non-conforming, it doesn't hurt you" and that shifted my view a lot; especially at that point since I was doubting a lot of things I had seen and was being told. Finding things at the right time and the right place saved my ass.
I've personally never worried about labels or boxes , we all fit quite a large number of both , in a way , we are like diamonds , we are all multifaceted and all beautiful in our own way ...
This is a really interesting take and I am inclined to agree. As a young preteen questioning my sexuality I jumped to the internet to teach me and eventually I figured out I was aro/ace. But unfortunately in the late 2010s wherever there was aro/ace info there was ✨ace discourse✨and that had a bad impact on me. The only ace space I knew was online so I assumed the same stupid discourse would be offline too. It got to the point where I was most afraid of coming out to my *bi* friend one not the (then) straight friends. Because I thought she would give me a speech about how I didn’t belong in the community. I couldn’t have been more wrong and she was ecstatic to have another lgbtq+ friend. All this to say the discourse online very rarely truly transfers to offline. In the real world you have real people who have better things to do then get in a twist over whether a label is “problematic”
I remember being a rural American ace child and having to chose between being in the dark about myself and being abused online because there just weren't other ways to talk to people. I still live in this small backwards town where 2/3 of everyone is explicitly a bigot and proud of it, and I still rather talk to these hicks rather than ever go back to tumblr because they just don't tall about politics.
hey, I'm literally at the end of my teen years and I've also had really similar experiences tbh. Hell, I didn't even believe that aces/aros existed outside of the internet because of a lack of people talking about it (or saying we don't exist even online), that is until last year when I went to a college where I met a lot of proud aaces lmao. IMO it also doesn't help when you live in a country that doesn't even include aces/aros in their topics but for some reason include every other gender and sexuality under the rainbow (if that made sense, they talk about sexualities/genders as niche as genderfluid, bigender, omnisexual, etc. but for some reason, never mention aces/aros where i live, especially in LGBT+ "communities" in all my schools/colleges*)
@@worstusernameintheworld9871 Your comment and the OP's comment is exactly how I've been feeling for so long. You might even say I'm more "niche" in a sense that I'm demi-ace and demi-aro and attracted to the opposite gender and not sex repulsed or attracted to the same gender while being a-spec.
I’m aro ace but I know how to protect myself from damaging things. Some things in our community aren’t the best. But I found so many people like me that wants friends the label helped me to find those people. I know that I’m not better than someone else for begin aro ace, I respect who respect me back that’s my rule
I am ace myself too. I have to admit, whenever i see any activism about. "A-sexual awareness." "Ace pride." "Ace rights." I am just like.... erh what? What's the point of this? My right to..... not have sex? .....I am pretty sure that's a right I do indeed have. I am not denied restaurant entry for not having a boyfriend. This one is just pointless. There ARE struggles for someone ace, I am in my early 30's now, I NEVER had a romantic partner and I don't believe I'll ever have one. So I am facing a life alone, growing old alone, and not being able to form a family or have kids... And that makes me very sad. It's not something I actually want. So if there is something I would like, it would be to form communities and groups where you can have friends and yeah, go to the park. find room mates, something... It's the prospect of a lonely life that's hard for me to think about. Not... not having rights I... i have rights, I have all the rights... the hell?
For my own part, my experience online has been significantly improved by never going on facebook, deleting my reddit, and I assume by having never made a twitter. My social media is mostly limited to YT (obvously, I'm here), tumblr, and a few niche hobby forums that have been around since web 1.0. I do however feel that because my early queer experience was online, I've not really learned how to search out and access queer community in person. Outside of my close friend group who are spread across the country at this point, I don't have much experience knowing other queer people in person. That leaves me pretty lonely, but gives me a clear goal: get better at in person queer socializing.
Practically the same here. I don't have an active twitter or reddit, no facebook, and I only use RU-vid actively (twitch sometimes for VODs when they aren't on youtube). I think the key to using social media is knowing what you want/need to get out of it. I enjoy watching videos, educating myself on topics, and just having fun watching gaming or variety content. That's what I use my social media for now, and it's enriched my experience on the internet fully. Recently, I've also gone through my entire sub list and got rid of creators I don't watch anymore, or content that annoys me whenever I see it on my feed. Helps a lot, now I don't deal with as much spam in my front page and can find the content I want to watch easily.
Almost the same, the only reasons I have a Twitter is for Japanese Twitter and its artists (and for watching Mr. Kamiya block everyone), game dev/mod updates, and Hidden Palace's ROM drops. And for Reddit I mostly stick to places so nerdy discourse never makes it in. The only times I've hit Discourse (TES community) it turned into a discussion about how you can use a metaphysical name change to grow antlers on a wood elf and what else could be changed with a protonymic change, and a debate on why race is inherited by mothers and the metaphysical impacts of water having memory and if it applies to pregnancy and the percentage of mom genes vs dad genes it implies. Which were both way more interesting than the Discourse-starter's whining.
I will update this to say that since I commented this I've found a couple different queer, and specifically trans groups locally to me and become an active member and participant in a couple of them. Having more other queer people in my life has been a massively positive thing. In-person queer community is really important to me now that I have it.
Hi; im a black transmasc lesbian and I just really want to say how much it makes me feel unbelievable relief to hear a white queer individual discussing their stake in these discussions in such a self-reflective, introspective manner. It makes me feel unbelievably seen, in an age where I truly thought that poc & sex positive queer people had lost a seat at our own table. This is an amazing video
@@slyar also not to make assumptions, but there is a long history of overlapping lesbian and transmasc (or similar) identities. Many lesbians throughout the years have used masculine language, dress, lived their lives passing as men, etc, without even getting into complexities of gender systems I'm not so familiar with. Stone Butch Blues is a classic text that goes into some of this history, though it's from a white American perspective and definitely not an explainer on other lesbian cultures.
hi lily! i was on the internet starting in '93 and the depiction of transfemininity in particular was... there was a usenet newsgroup called alt.transgendered in 1992! way ahead of its time! it was overrun by chasers by 1993 and so i never saw it, never mind my never having heard the word "transgender" and not knowing what to look for. growing up i was pretty sure i was buffalo bill and i didn't really have access to information contradicting that hypothesis until the mid-2010s, and wasn't capable of acknowledging my trans identity until 2019. i've been privileged to really only use private discord servers as my social media for the last few years and it's been really positive for me. healthy boundaries make for healthy communities ime. sorry about the covid :(
thanks for sharing this amazing piece of history! re the "Buffalo Bill" imposter syndrome, i see it in different forms in myself and many other trans folks and enbies. the "sexually deviant man in a dress" caricature has festered for a long time.
My axe to grind. I came out in 1979. I did have the opportunity to learn from my elders - I even had a conversation with Touko Laaksonen (Tom of Finland) at a gathering. Without knowing how bad things used to be; there's no basis to know where we've made progress. We burn out and get ground down without the perspective of our own history. Without our history we can't appreciate the courage and resilience of our predeccesors much less learn from them. And we did learn how to organize around AIDS from the people who survived the Nazis and Jim Crow eras.
@@kontsakeisari So vanilla I don't even recall any details. He was sitting at the same table as I at an ECMC meet, (in think in Hamburg). I didn't know who he was until afterward.
I'm a bi who figured myself out about 10 years ago. I want interaction with queer people irl, but my experience with the local queer community was quite disappointing when I first tried 10 years ago. The only thing I seemed to be able to find was: 1) gay parties at a local bar once a month (almost exclusively shirtless young men looking to hookup), 2) lesbians who say that bisexuals gross them out, 3) a gay organisation for the city with a total of 5 (fairly old) members who are all very focused on HIV prevention. Didn't feel welcome anywhere. Twitch chats of queer (or probably queer) streamers is where I found community. It's also where I found my wife. I don't know how to find irl queer community in a small city like mine. I don't know that it exists.
I "love" being scared to tell people that I'm ace because asexusals being considered to be part of lgbtq is "contentious" because of gatekeeping so straight people tell me Its just a phase or that I just haven't met the right person or that horomone therapy would fix it and lgbtq people tell me i'm just a straight with no sex drive and that asexual people never experience/d any prejudice (essentially grow up and get a real sexuality) just like what happens to pan or bi people. what a lovely community we have.
I have heard more of the LGBT having scorn for ace people than straight people. Straight people to me are like "Lucky, you don't have to deal with any of this BS" I'm like "yeah kinda right" while the LGBT said I'm either gay or straight and haven't "realized it yet" me being a aro/ace/bi man looking at them trying to not hurt their feelings that day.
I'm aroace and I feel the same way too. Not that anyone has told me that I haven't met "the one" yet or something like that, but I just have the feeling that people will invalidate me by calling me straight and pretending to be apart of the lgbtq.
No hate but tbh in my radleft bubble aro/aces are some of the worst gatekeepers and virtue signalers. I've encountered some/plenty of aphobia in queer/leftist spaces, sure, but less than poly ace anarchoqueers convincing me that I'm a traitor to the working class and trans people for watching contrapoints/hasanabi/having a child/whatever
@@kasiafist666 ah, I see, understandable I guess, I’m from a fairly remote northern part of Canada (similar in the way people think about things to the Deep South of the US) so I haven’t really been able to interact with a lot of other ace people to know if that’s a common thing, but the lgbt community here (small as it is) aren’t really ace friendly. I’m not looking to gatekeep anyone, I just wanted a place in the community without being gatekept. I didn’t know it was controversial to like contrapoints, I watch her and Abby Thorne among several other trans video essayists regularly and it never occurred to me that that could be somehow construed as being a class traitor
This is a great video, I've gotten to the point where I was thinking about this and I just hate the discourse, the discourse is the most useless shit on the internet regardless of what side you are on. As long as you aren't harassing other people or being racist (because lets be honest, most of the flag discourse people that use problematic flags are racist) I don't care what you do. It's like you said, we come around to the same discourse and instead of uniting against the enemies like cops or fascists or the state and government, we end up damaging ourselves. Contrapoints had a similar take recently, quote : "the queer community online is a bunch of damaged people damaging eachother" all that is to say, just be kind to eachother, and stop harassing kids/boomers online who don't agree with you.
I really appreciate your section talking about the cultural mythologizing of historical figures. While I'm not in the LGBT community, I still see broadly in progressive spaces the purity language of "if you disagree with me you disagree with *insert historical figure*" which I feel is super unproductive bc it erases the human elements of them figure in question. I think a lot of those same people who say that would disagree with said figures in many ways themselves. It feels like a harmful way of engaging in history that stifles our ability to truly learn and understand
as an ex-queer discourser and as an ex-exclusionist, i feel this was a perfect way to put everything. near the end of my time on “exclus-twitter” i became a “neutralist” to describe or put a label my desire to prioritize queer people in real life and real people with real opinions. a lot of these teens and young adults are introverted and want to have a community online. they will fight and agree and be as outrageous as possible and argue tooth and nail for one ideal so that they create a community, no matter how large or small. if anyone knows what exclus-twitter was, you’ll know it was pretty big with around 4000 people, and many of my mutuals began to climb in followers. i had 800 before i was deleted but i just remember the impact it had on me when i first started and how truly down the magical pipeline that was queer discourse twitter at the time. i spent hours screaming my feelings into the void or into a reply just trying to get someone to listen to me by being as loud and crazy as i could and it started to work for me. im glad that era is over for me and on that note glad that pride month is too ! as a trans woman of color and a crazy bipolar bisexual girl, i feel that my existence for corporate and all of this discourse just marginalizes and and contains me more instead of just letting me be a girl at a picnic with her friends. hopefully, this generation will smell some roses because i finally have and im glad i don’t rely on the echo chamber for validation anymore.
Another thing that I've personally felt as someone from Germany: I've recently been able to take part in a feminist project (for a women's refuge), and I've learned loads about feminist and queer history in my own country that... the internet just never exposed me to. Queer discourse even here in Germany is incredibly Americanized and the history queer German kids learn is too. Even though there's a very rich local history. But it's so incredibly buried and hard to find, I feel we're only ever focusing our "debates" on an American space, when there's very real ones to be had locally as well. (newfound transness has me looking to some severe ones, oh boy) Anyway, aside from *that,* I wholeheartedly agree. I've been doing my hardest to expose my online feed to diverse people with diverse opinions/stories to tell, and I've been learning loads outside of "are he/him lesbians valid." But on the bottom line, as someone with (social) anxiety, I've always had a super hard time entering queer spaces offline. I feel they're hard to find, and scary to access (which might or might not be only a perceived problem), so I guess, I'll stay chronically online for a while longer. At the very least, there are ways to at least somewhat disengage from the endless discourse, if you try your hardest. Thanks for providing some resources too! I know, I'll definitely check them out 🥰🥰
I am clearly and obviously not an expert, but many cities and regions in Germany have a very rich, inter-generational, and diverse LGBTQ+ Histories! And with that fun fact, Happy Pride Month for LGBTQ+ peoples like you in Germany!!!
I'm a French queer person, and I feel very similarly. When I first understood I was queer (age 12 or so) I went to the public library in my small town and looked for books on the subject. I stumbled upon one novel about gay men during the Holocaust and that's pretty much it. Even after looking online, I couldn't find much of anything in french and almost immediately started reading and watching stuff in english once I could more or less understand the language. Living in a village where I was the only queer person I knew of, I basically didn't have any other way to learn about the history of "my people." Even today, I feel like there's a lot I don't know about queer communities and queer history in my country, except for a few famous authors/artists and obviously the great tragedies like the Holocaust and the AIDS crisis. Since I go to university now, I tried looking for books about queer history on the uni library system, and I could find a grand total of 1 book on the history of homosexuality in Europe, and it wasn't published anymore. It makes me feel strangely disconnected from the people who came before me, because I don't even know about them and their stories. I hope to find an event or a LGBTQ centre or something along those lines where I'll be able to find more resources, or even talk to older people from the community.
As straight male I've always struggled until recently with my attraction to Trans Women. With everybody from other Cis people, Christians, Gays, and even other Trans telling me I'm gay or at least bi for liking Trans Women. When that's simply just not the case, I've reluctantly experimented in the past. I'm simply not into masculinity and hairyness. Even on Grindr I constantly have guys telling me but I'm still gay tho for liking Trans, or that they are still technically a guy, or ask why I'm even on gay dating app if I don't like guys. I like Femininity whethet Cis or Trans. In the past I've said things I didn't realize were "chaser" like or slightly transphobic. Thankfully I was able to see someone explain it politely to someone else online. And I was able realize and correct myself. But I've seen way too many people go off on someone, and it hurts me every time. Not to say there aren't chasers out there or that it's not a problem, it is. There are people out there that just don't mean it and with societal norms making people feel awkward already. The solution is not to belittle people that are or could be potential allies. Explain why their actions are wrong and be sure to mention you know they didn't mean to be offensive, but what they said or did was wrong. Goes a lot farther. Like the old saying goes "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar." with all these things it's made me not want to come out or rather be upfront with people until recently. People often get emotional about things and situations personal to them and tend to forget that, other people are people too.
I've just finished reading a book by a guy called Ross Greenwood called Canaries in the Coal Mine. He's a crime fiction writer, so I was interested when I heard he'd written this book focusing on Transgender characters. He writes about how at first, he considered not even writing the book, until he was encouraged to by his friend's Trans son. I'm so glad he did: we need more ally voices like his, especially considering the terrible situation for Transgender people in some US states, the views of which seem to be filtering into the political arena of other countries, such as the UK, who are currently attempting to block the Scottish Gender Recognition Reform Bill because, in the words of the British Prime Minister that the bill will "put women and children in danger". So much for progress away from seeing Trans women as predators. Ross Greenwood's book follows the life of two Trans women who are placed in a men's prison because one of them doesn't have any documentation to prove that she's a woman. It's a really important book and very relevant to current politics surrounding gender identity. I guess I've kind of ruined the twist for you if you do decide to read it, but I guessed from the beginning. I just wanted to say that it's good to hear that you are so open and willing to learn. It can be such a hostile world out there. The more allies, the better. I'd never heard of the term "chaser" until I read Greenwood's book, and I've been queer since I can remember. That's the only label I allow myself. Explaining is pointlessly complex. My son is Trans and I do joke with him sometimes that I transed his gender by being queer. Oops. But seriously, you just keep being you and don't be afraid to be your authentic self. There's enough stifling going on in society from every corner already! I was reading a comment the other day where someone said "The problem isn't me being Trans, it's having to live around cishet people" and although I didn't reply, I did think, oh dear, you're so young, with so much to learn. No one chooses to be cis or Trans or gay or straight...but they DO choose whether or not to be accepting. Wishing you a wonderful 2023.
I just wanted to say that the point of identity labels is to express what you feel :) Anyone who's saying your label is invalid is most likely missing the point. If you say you're straight, then you're straight. All that matters is your definition, because its the label you've chosen to describe your sexuality. I've mainly stuck to the positive side of the community until trying to learn more about the issues of the LGBTQ+ community, and what I've learned is identity labels are identity labels; they're used to describe a personal experience, which varies person to person. In otherwords, there's no right or wrong way to use them. There's common associations, but ultimately those should be treated as guidelines, not rules. Besides, whether you like transwomen or transmen in that way comes down to a preference. It's ultimately not a determining factor in your sexuality. You like feminine traits, then of course you like transwomen, because they're feminine women who match your preferences. There's really nothing more to it, it just matches for you. Date who you want and use the label you want. At the end of the day, the one who lives with it is you.
You're being true to yourself and that's the most important thing , sometimes labels are just an easier way for other people to classify you , take no notice ... you do you !
@@Dreamheart101 Really well put said and exactly how I feel too ... I've been around since the 70's and was lucky enough to come out in the real world before computers , when the gay scene was a real community of every type of person just going out to have a good time , and we did !
it would be nice to interact more offline, but i live in an extremely transphobic and homophobic area. ultimately any fellow gay and/or trans people are closeted because it's not safe
The purity culture thing is one of the more disturbing developments -- my working theory has been that it's as a result of our online communities drawing from a much broader demographics, in particular, including kids who are still living within Christian purity culture and haven't yet given it up. (Historically they would be acculturating into queer communities in an entirely distinct space from where they grew up.) But whatever it's source, it's truly toxic.
Yeah, I suspect kids being able to enter the (online) queer community without separating themselves from (read: being forcibly ejected from) Christian purity culture is one of the main reasons why purity culture is growing within the queer community too. Good to know other people are thinking the same thing! I think it’s really important to know where it’s coming from to properly address it, I’ve definitely seen queer adults who are very frustrated by it (which is totally fair of course) and take it out on the kids without thinking about where it’s actually coming from/the difference in experience that’s causing the rift. I’d like to think the issue could be helped a lot by education and building community between older and younger queers, but either way watching it grow is concerning.
That's a great insight! I think you're right that people do what they know, basically, and thus tend to apply their old paradigms, heuristics, and attitudes even to their newer, more "open-minded" worldview. I also think a lot of younger kids and people who've been kicked around a lot IRL enjoy the rush of ratio-ing people and getting to dictate terms from on top of Twitter Mountain like a Queer Moses.
I suspect that part of it is maybe motivated by trauma. If you're in an online community, you don't want to be reminded of things that make you relive your trauma, even if that thing is the most milquetoast take on the planet. So modders, big names amongst the community etc take steps to cut down on those things. Then more people show up, with their own baggage. Suddenly you're accommodating for every possible trigger out there and suddenly you've cultivated an environment that is so soft and fragile that its basically a glass house. It nudges people into directions of becoming more draconian with their beliefs/methods to weed out negativity. It doesn't allow for mistakes/awkward takes. That's a slippery slope.
From my experience, purity culture is largely from radfems infiltrating young queer/progressive spaces to covertly promote their rhetoric. That said, it's also heavily influenced by (probably rooted in) religious conservativism.
The Black Trans Archive was really awesome. It was dark and creepy and strange and powerful. And very beautiful. Very trans. Thanks for introducing it. I'll go through it again a few more times when I feel like I need it.
I checked it out myself and I do not regret it. It was a bit uncomfortable to go through, but that's the whole point. I felt confronted as a cis, white person. I felt like I learned something. It is important to understand the role I play and how it effects others, even if I don't like what I'm hearing. I am sorry if this reply is unwanted. I just wanted to share my thoughts.
I used to be really into the whole discourse, feeling I was fighting the "good fight" especially with the bi lesbian discourse But eventually it tired me out, and now I lowkey stopped caring. Lesbian having a definition that excludes men is good, but I am so tired of talking about it, and I can't stop people identifying with whatever they want. Plus there's transphobia on the rise like crazy, gay people in danger, all of us in danger, people don't care about our specific identities, they just want us dead, and while I'll never change my view, I will fight for everyone. At the end of the day, I just wanna have a dumb gay picnic too.
yep this is what ppl want: internal discourse. when we fail to unite, we are weak. this is also happening in politics on the left, and is why shit like roe v wade is being overturned. nothing is being done bc no one can agree on how to fight back.
Happy Dumb Gay Picnic for the Pride Month!!! What kind of food and drinks though?? Just asking, just in case. Anyways, Happy Dumb Gay Picnic for the Pride Month!!!
@@thelittlewateringhole5576 I think the consensus is all the fruity drinks that hit way harder than they look/taste/smell are acceptably gay, as are anything you put an umbrella into or that makes you feel bad for drinking it because it looks so *artful* . For the food I propose the biggest BLTs because a BLT-Grande is just LGBT rearranged. Also alphabet soup and alphaghetti because memes.
How is transphobia on the rise like crazy? If anything its getting much more acceptable to be trans while even non trans people transitioning and then detransitioning cause some people treated it as a fad. Im not saying there is not transphobia anymore, im just saying that it IS getting better.
@@luka7678 while person to person transphobia might be slowly getting overturned, at least in America there are plans set in motion to make it extremely difficult (as if it wasn't already) to get transgender healthcare and in some cases there are already laws put in place that makes it impossible to help trans kids at all. Of course at this point America is kind of a theocratic mess, so we might not be the most exemplary of the world
Food for thought: Gen z and younger have the internet as their primary and only social group because of changes in American society (and some other developed countries). Kids can't go to the park alone anymore, so when they become adults they don't know how how to explore solo and don't feel the need to. The world events meant they couldn't gather in social groups for a large portion of their teens, which is when people tend to start to explore solo.
@@nuclearpancake3683kids cant go anywhere alone. american cities are literally just roads and a constant danger zone to anything that isn't a car. it's miserable.
I was about 15 when I first began using tumblr, and at the time i didn't realize i was trans or bi. There was no shortage of unnecessary hostility between LGBTQ related blogs. Tumblr was where I first began to learn more about the concepts of being transgender, nonbinary, gender nonconforming. Even with my friends from School in real life whose blogs I followed, I'm quite certain the language with which we understood LGBTQ related concepts was learned from some blogposts. Not that there was nothing good ever to be taken away from conversations and posts on the website, because I definitely learned some valuable things from my time there but...It does stick in my memory how confused I was at the time. It almost seemed like it was impossible for me to be a good "ally". I remember seeing people make inflammatory posts with some absolutely ridiculous rhetoric that was aimed at the other members of the community that made absolutely no sense to me. I could get into the nitty-gritty of it and describe it but honestly I don't really want to. I was there, it was bad. (Source: Dude, trust me) sometimes i feel like i still need to take a step back and process tumblr circa the early 2010s. I was experiencing a shitload of gender dysphoria and I think some of the ways in which the conversations surrounding trans issues back then were actually harmful to my teenage self, and it pains me to think about how the same things are happening to kids nowadays just on different platforms.
I'm not really the audience you're trying to address here - this showed up on my feed because I sometimes watch LGBT+ content in order to understand - but I actually wish more people in the online left were willing to be introspective about their own groups like this. As someone's who's been lurking in various ideological groups since the late 2000's, one of the biggest failings I saw of the online left was some of the stuff you highlighted here - purity testing, rampant negativity, an inability to self-reflect and emotional fragility. Personally I reckon it's how the Alt-Right managed to gain so much traction and ground during the early-mid 2010's. Even if they hated each other, they could put out a facade of unity. Meanwhile the Left was actively pushing people out who didn't tow the exact ideological line, maintaining emotional hugboxes that were more akin to social clubs that actual platforms for positive change, and behaviour and tactics that were counterintuitive and actively hurt their movements. Even now, I still see those same problems, although I would even venture that its been exacerbated with the likes of Patreon and the like. Now you don't just become a fan of someone's content, you invest in it. You're a business partner in a sense, promoting their brand, which ties people even tighter into the fandoms/world of their favourite content creators. And if you don't tow the line, you're potentially damaging the brand and their output of content.
I always wondered whether the alt-right was as unified as it seemed from leftist spaces or whether they were just as fractured in their own ways. Though, I never could be bothered to look into it, it's nice to know. In some ways, it really does feel like the radicals on both sides aren't that different at all. Also, as someone who likes hearing various viewpoints, I would be really curious to hear your opinion on all of this if you're willing to humor a random stranger on the internet.
@@lilowhitney8614 Sure, I don't mind. Makes a welcome change from people who automatically assume the worst of you on social media. Keep in mind, this will probably be a bit long. If you're referring to Alt-Right unity, I'd say some of it was actual unity, some was surface level and some hated each other who could mask it well until matters came to a head. Actual unity came in the form of people like Carl Benjamin and Milo Yiannopoulos. Or Dave Rubin interviewing all manner of people from the "Intellectual Dark Web." They sometimes collaborated in the early days. But I don't think it was as straight-forward as that. A lot of the unity was more subtle, like Carl schmoozing with Phil Defranco, Boogie and the like. Or even Anthony Fantano before he got the shit scared out of him by a smear article written about him. If nothing else, much of this early unity was financially motivated. Dave Rubin only maintained ties with Milo until he became toxic even to his bottom line and cut him off. Surface unity was more about creators collaborating. The whole Internet Bloodsports thing was basically one big shitstorm of alt-right/anti-sjw content creators who flinging crap at each other until the clashing egos became too much and the whole thing imploded. Even now, you can see some of that in the form of John Doyle/Nick Fuentes. Even the shitposters over on Kiwi Farms basically are only unified by their mutual contempt for lolcows of all ideological/social stripes. The open hatred was more akin to the Alt-Right clashing with conventional neocons, like Milo mocking Ben Shapiro. But given a lot of their audiences had overlap, I doubted the audiences cared much. I think part of it was at least in part formed by the parasocial relationships viewers formed with the creators. The whole Intellectual Dark Web thing wasn't really a creation by the people connected. It was the fans linking them like some moron's version of the Avengers because of a few photos they took together. BUT like I said, I will also point out that part of the reason the Alt-Right/Anti-SJW communities appeared so unified was because the proto-progressive creators of the time were incredibly ineffectual/poorly equipped to handle the zeitgeist of the time. If you want me to elaborate on that, I can do so, but I won't shove that down your throat.
@@stevenguitink5947 I would love to hear you elaborate further. This is all really interesting to me, especially because I haven't heard of much of this before. Also, don't worry about length. As far as I'm concerned the more you go into detail the more interesting it is.
Okay, so keep in mind as I explain this. First its all from my perspective. I'm not claiming to be an expert, more just someone who lurked in a lot of these communities out of curiosity. Second, despite what I'm about to say, my politics do swing left. So while I'll admit I'm biased, I'm not doing this out of some secret attempt to 'destroy the left' or some stupid immature goal like that. Also, for my own sanity, I'll break this up into chunks. xD So in my opinion, one of the biggest failures of the early Online Left was an inability to read the room. The earliest, biggest online community I was connected to the Atheist community. In its infancy, a lot of the rhetoric was a mixture of religious discussion mixed with trash talk. The whole matter of drama/arcs/villains of the week was already there at that time. The thing was, the Atheist community wasn't really that interconnected. Aside from atheism, very few of them shared common political views, social views etc. And those that did - on LGBT rights, science etc - were more aligned out of anti-religious sentiment than actual political connections. So then ElevatorGate happened. Basically as I understand it - came in late to that thing - an Atheist RU-vidr - I won't name her as I don't want to dredge this shit up too much - got hit on in an elevator at an Atheist Convention. It was 4am and he asked her up to his room for a coffee. Some people have said she condemned the whole Atheist community for misogyny, others say she limply told the community to tone that shit down. It's probably somewhere in the middle. You'd have to trawl back through her video archives on RU-vid to find it. But what followed was a split in the Atheist community; those that sided with the woman and those that didn't consider it a big deal. And those that sided with the woman REALLY didn't the dissension well. Richard Dawkins for example go dogpiled on Twitter. What followed became known as Atheism+, an attempt by a segment of online Atheists/real world activists to fuse Atheism with progressive politics. But like I said, early progressives failed to read the room. The zeitgeist around this time IMO was largely apolitical and very politically incorrect. This was the generation that came out of Bush's America. Dark comedy and politically incorrect humour were a byproduct. So when Atheism+ came on the scene, started acting like evangelicals, employing IdPol and demonizing people who didn't care for their rhetoric, the whole thing bombed hard. It also didn't help that the head of the whole debacle was caught cheating on his wife, despite claiming to be a staunch feminist.
@@stevenguitink5947 No worries. I do think there's a lot to criticize about the left (both in methods and in some aspects of the ideology) but it's so hard to find any good criticism that doesn't come from a hateful or bigoted place. So this is pretty refreshing. It's actually interesting that you point towards one of the failing of the online left being not reading the room, because I noticed it too although in a different aspect. There's this tendency to focus on the "should" rather than the "is", which leads to a lot of magical thinking and treating treating compromises as almost taboo.
15:46 is pretty much how I feel about all this discourse. I just don't want to be involved. I want to be at peace with my community but it feels like there is this demand that I must "hate" anyone who has different sexuality or gender identity than me. Even being neutral is considered a moral failing and risks getting you blocked by anyone who thinks you're a radical inclusionist or an exclusionist. I stay out of the bi pan lesbian discourse for my mental health. I don't understand why people use the terms but I don't want to hate them. The term is not for me (I'm nonbinary bisexual) and I find it contradictory at most, but I am not interested in dehumanizing those who use it. I understand the arguments from bisexuals, lesbians, pansexuals, and trans/nb people. What's confusing is that on one end there are nb, trans, and genderfluid people and lesbians who are critical of the term, and on the other end, there are nb, trans, and genderfluid people and lesbians who encourage the use of the term. If the term is problematic to these groups, why are some of them are okay with it? And if the term is okay, why do some of them greatly dislike it? Who is right or wrong? I can't make out what the whole of the community thinks of this. By the end of the day, I do not understand the term and I just leave those who use it alone. In addition to this, one of the things that bothered me about this discourse is how much of it reminds me of the discourse around nonbinary people that happened a few years ago. Stuff like "non-binary people don't exist", "non-binary people are transphobic", and so on were often used to dehumanize us. And to see the same thing again years later in this discourse... Like, do I want to encourage those sentiments today?? No. I don't want to hurt anyone. I refuse to bring that back. No one should go through this again, and yet here we are. I'm tired. I'm seeing anti-trans ads in my state. Florida just passed their Don't Say Gay bill. What will be next? Will it be my ability to get a job or get married? I am worried about the very real-world problems that will have an impact on my safety as a gay person. I am scared. Neverending online discourse is not the solution to what's happening out there. We need to get our act together and actually dismantle the systems trying to kill us. How can we keep fighting for our right to exist if we keep recycling the hate the world gives us? The same hate that kills us, leaves our elders dying of aids, silences us, and wants to get rid of us. We need to stop.
Yes I think some people hear the term and assume it means some crazy far right belief? But if they looked further into it they'd think "oh I see, that makes sense" ..maybe that's what happened here.
Wanting to be left alone is how most people I have met feel about it. Also the "Rights of parents in education" mislabeled as "don't say gay" prevents all sexuality discussion to 3rd graders and below, so it's not just don't say gay, it's also don't say straight. What Florida made it for is to prevent grooming, one of those issues that forces people who would rather be left alone to act, they will act to damage whatever forced them into caring.
This video is one of the best pieces of Leftist content I've watched in quite a while! Unlike much of what I've been watching for the last couple years, it made me feel genuine peace of mind, hope, even, despite it literally being about the opposite of that. As a History undergrad, I really loved Lily's take on how the study of Queer History can be used to make Queer discourse LESS toxic! 😍 I also really liked when she talked, among other things, about the difference of how divisiveness is perceived in online and in offline communities. She's managed to synthesize in simple terms, and in half an hour, valuable takes that can be applied to other types of Leftist discourse, instead of accidentally making the problem she was trying to understand seem even more unsolvable and despair -inducing than before. I simply cannot thank her enough for that! 🥰
@@lily_lxndr Thank You for addressing and clarifying that useful information Ms. Alexandre! And I guess on that note, Happy Leftist and Left-wing Pride Month!!!
To be fair though, social medias' sheer unrivaled population has resulted in some of the most important, well-developed pieces of activism and queer resources throughout history. Though social media functions to divide the queer community's dialogue, the nature of the internet has resulted in unity and organizing between people that wouldn't have otherwise met, or even come in contact with other queer individuals. I always think of regional trans resources, DIY trans resources, widespread access to queer-centered sex education, previously purely academic concepts coming into mainstream thought, international queer unity and much more only really possible with this sort of means of communication. Not that things have changed or even improved all that much, but I feel like if nothing else social media has opened up the means for so much action not even realistic before.
The internet has been a real boon to the visibility of Aspec people. Sure we always existed (you can find posters advertising spaces for Asexuals in the 70s and Bambi Lesbians are a thing) but it was mainly on the periphery. Important terms like Amatonormativity aren't even 20 years old yet. The internet and social media really helped this stuff spread and the community to grow
@@PersephoneDarling28 TRUE Learning about asexuality impacted my life in so many ways and I didn't even realize it was a thing, nonetheless has a wide spectrum of identities until late high school. Definitely a point of progress.
you have the voice and presentation of someone who should give guided meditations.... speaking as a "happens-to-be-gay" guy who is reflexively repelled by queer activism even when I try not to be (probably my own issue), you're doing a good job of making it easily digestible for me. I'll likely explore your channel more now.
Getting off Twitter (or rather, being banned) massively improved my mental health and relationship with queerness. It was amazingly liberating just *not* seeing discourse anymore after years being engulfed by it daily. The thing about discourse is that nothing ever changes, nobody ever learns anything and nothing ever comes of it. And you're so right about purity culture. I think one of the best things we can do as queer communities is embrace people that make us uncomfortable.
the last few months, after having started working on translation of feminists and queer texts (and still having the project of writing some myself), I've started working as a peer helper for other disabled folks, and it's the most important thing I have done. It can't give me clout, but I actually feels like what I'm doing is helping. There's a clear need for antiableism and antipsychiatric movement in France, and I don't think the queer struggle can evolve positively without adressing those issues. So, by working on those issues, I think I can help building something in the future (I hope)
One of the peer we're accompagnying right now is a trans woman who've been put in a mental hospital against her will. It's important to me, because I would have liked to get help like her when I was in that situation myself.
I really appreciate that you add description links for us to look for ourselves and form our own opinions, it’s so insanely difficult to find reliable sources who show queer history in a non-romanticized way.
Awesome video! the state of online queer discourse has very much pushed me away (especially as an AMAB bi person) from the space and I gotta say I really don't miss it that much. finding community in smaller groups online or in person with covid hopefully getting better just feels so much more productive and most importantly just pleasant to be a part of.
I cannot begin to count the amount of times I've said to people: "Do you guys know it's illegal to be gay in some places????" omg I've felt contemplated by your video
31, femme amab queer here, and I love this video! Funny thing about the Stonewall Marsha worship thing. A friend and I were just talking about this about a week ago, and we can both remember at least 3 or 4 distinct stories of "who threw the first brick". It changes about every 10 years. I remember it being "a gay man threw the first brick" in the 90s, then it was a trans woman. Now, we say Marsha, and I've even heard rumblings of Sylvia Rivera recently. There's a story from the 80s or so that wagers it was Stormé DeLarverie, but then that morphed into her being the drag king that was loaded into a cop car that ignited the riot. I think it just changes as our cultural narrative changes. In the 90s there was a need to empower gay men after the AIDS crisis, and now there's a bigger push than there's ever been for trans rights. Love the suggestions you gave, as well! I'd suggest Vito Russo and the Celluloid Closet for AIDS activism and our historical depictions throughout the 20th century. (actually I'm just getting to the part where you have Sylvia speaking at pride '73. Vito is the one that invited her up and handled the aftermath.) Okay, final paragraph I promise but this is so great. It's fascinating to hear, and a little scary if I'm going to be honest, to hear the take of the young, white, queer internet spaces. The queer community to me has always meant trailblazing freaks. It's crazy to hear there are spaces on the internet that want to reject the attitudes that got us here. Counterculture, to me, is the core of queer identity. We've only ever been socially acceptable when we're invisible.
the oddest thing about the Stonewall Marsha worship thing is that Marsha herself always told the same the same story: she was uptown with friends when the word reached them that the gay guys in the village were rioting, so they went downtown and joined in. When a reporter from the NY Times got tired of being called a transphobe for reporting this, he made public the tape recordings of Marsha herself talking about it -- and even that didn't change people's mind. -- we definitely know she was at the meeting for the founding of the Gay Liberation Front on the second day of the uprising. As an old gay guy who was a gay student in NYC in the 70s, I don't remember anyone ever claiming to have thrown the first brick -- the story that was told was that it was EVERYONE who started it - everyone was just sick of the cops harassing folks.
@@otsoko66 THANK YOU! And yeah, it's pretty maddening to be told in smug undertones how wrong it is to believe that one person likely didn't do it. Americans love a hero, and gay folks are no different. I think a lot of the kids today also mistake the language for the day for the language back then. There weren't as many terms to define people and if you weren't middle class you were likely in the same boat as all of the other gays.
I remember I had my first openly gay friend in 2007. Before I got to know him I also had a very naive view on the LGBTQ community. That they were open and non-judgemental, didn't exclude people for being different and so on. However my friend was not the typical gay that usually was portrayed on tv-shows and so on. He wasn't very fashionable or didn't have a very feminine expression. He told me that he felt excluded from some gay communities because of his fashion choices. He had for example been confronted with someone claiming that his shoes were to ugly for him to be gay. That made me realise gay people are just like humans in general who look for someone to pick on.
Ooh, I hadn't really thought about drawing a line from general online toxicity, the rise of #wholesome content, and people wanting to map that purity onto how people express, but it makes a lot of sense
comment for the al gore rhythm, great video as always!! edit: I realized while watching this that, in my year+ off of twitter, the words “bi lesbian” have not crossed my mind. whether that means anything important I can’t say, but I do think it demonstrates just how frivolous and OnLine so many of these conflicts are
Also your part about how online people "cut off" themselves from interacting with diff peeps online, dividing us - I see this done with "DNI - proshipper, bi lesbians, cis women...etc" the DNI thing is the dumbest and most exclusionary thing I've ever seen. it seemed like a good way to create a safe space, but then turned into just an absolute mess of pushing others away, becoming close off and very conservative.
yes! dni's can be useful if you're on one side of a page and don't want other content on ur page but no bi lesbian, cis woman etc. is gonna look at that text and pay attention
@@juicyboxesxo in my case I pay attention and don’t follow and block, because I’m not interested in being friendly with someone like that. What’s even more annoying is the same people with “DNI” will happily seek out fan content from people they’ve deemed DNI. But you can’t have it both ways - if I’m not allowed to view your stuff, you certainly aren’t allowed to view and enjoy my content.
@@salemmarz3809 it’s one thing for like , DNI terfs - another to exclude people based on how they were born. In the real world we don’t get to exclude people in such a bizarre way. I don’t think it’s healthy.
Number two and the part about Marsha P. Johnson are SO important for queers, especially the white ones, to understand. I’ve literally in all my life never liked a queer video as much as this one. This has to be one of your best videos if not the best.
I stumbled across this while looking for other people's opinions on online discourse. I don't think this will make anyone feel better, but many of the problems that you note in the online spaces you discussed here are also true of autism spaces. Allegedly, these are places where anyone on the autism spectrum should be able to be themselves, but, as someone who was diagnosed in my 30s (and years before Autism Spectrum was the diagnosis and Aspergers Syndrome wad the medical term) I have found the online spaces very alienating to anyone who is not younger (and therefore had different experiences of being "different"), and I see much of the same sort of splintering there that you describe here. I think you're right - it's a function of the way that the companies that run social media try to feed us information, as well as the way that certain loud voices can more easily dominate online spaces and make their views seem like the "standard" views.
(RU-vid didn't post my comment so I am sorry if a duplicate appears) I am getting my MS in Computer Science and I have a special interest in how the internet is designed for these types of conversations (or rather how they are designed to aggravate them like how you have said). I am very interested in doing research on what queer people would want to see in an online community and what are some effective methods for introducing people to history. An idea I had was to write Twitter bots to retell history in "real time". Inspired by how books used to be published in a episodic weekly format and how web comics come out periodically instead of all at once. I would write a group of bots that act as people that might have been living in the past and then they would carry out the same arguments and discourse base don primary sources. The goal would be for someone younger to run across it and mistake it for actual people. Hopefully then people could start to see how the past isn't so different from the future. I am leaving this comment in the hopes that another trans programmer might see it and implement the idea or get inspired by the idea before I get to it (which may take years bc of ADHD and the need to work for money). There is also a group called Queer in AI that I follow that focuses on how AI effects the queer community specifically. All that to say, don't give up hope for changing how the internet is shaped. We CAN redesign these communities just like how we reshape communties offline. The way that social media is designed doesn't HAVE to be like this.
i was incredibly fortunate to realize my orientation when i was really young. i'm talking primary school young! i was 5 or 6 watching sailor moon every day after school, wanting to marry every character i thought was pretty or cute, regardless of gender. i knew i had the capacity to love whoever i felt was worthy of my love, and it wasn't until the 7th grade that i finally heard the term "bisexual" and thought - that's it! that's what i am! for the next few years i was proudly bi! i told anyone who was willing to listen to me, and despite growing up in a secluded, rural community that was blindingly white, i managed to avoid more overt forms of racism and bi/homophobia throughout highschool. not long after graduation, i'd made my first tumblr account and was immediately beaten over the head with all of the miserable bi/pan discourse! it didn't take long for me to make the switch from bisexual to pansexual. after all bisexuality was less than, it was dirty, it meant that you were stained, and i didn't want that. (and that's not even *touching* the garbage argument about bisexuality being inherently transphobic!) it wasn't until i was almost finished college that i unlearned all of that nonsense and reclaimed my identity as "bisexual". those few years of cosplaying as a pan person were hell. i can't believe i wasted so much of my time and energy. thanks for this video.
This comment is coming from a genuinely curious place, from a person who identifies as biromantic, and sees pansexual as fitting under the bisexual umbrella: What specifically about "cosplaying as a pan person" was so difficult? I can definitely see it being uncomfortable if bi describes you better than pan, I'm just curious what made it so horrible for you since they are similar orientations.
@@jadelinny because i'm bisexual, i've always been bisexual. it's the label that makes me feel at home with myself, y'know? and considering that i'd been "forced" into identifying as pansexual after i'd spent years loving my bisexuality, that's why the experience wasn't a particularly fond one for me. it's one thing to naturally come to the conclusion that you're pansexual, that being pan is what feels right for you, but it's another thing to be shamed into identifying as such because a bunch of miserable losers had you convinced that there was something wrong with being bisexual. and it was easy to do unfortunately considering how stigmatized our identity is, both within our community and beyond. i've noticed since those days that it's more "acceptable" to identify as pan, but not so much as bi. in fact the amount of times i've seen a questioning person who feels that maybe they're bisexual only to be told by a stranger that "you can still be straight while also being attracted to the same gender" is pretty ridiculous! i don't often see that same response given when the term "questioning pansexual" is used. it'd be interesting, if it weren't so frustrating.
@@anishinaabae thanks for the detailed reply! It sounds like all the hatred from people toward the bi label was the awful part, and that's totally understandable! That's discrimination that you never should have had to deal with. FWIW, I don't think it's actually more common for people to identify as pan than bi; I think the gap is generational, so depending on which platforms or groups one frequents, it can feel skewed. Some platforms, unfortunately, tend to get more toxic than others. My impression is that most people who aren't in an echo chamber are become aware how problematic the whole manufactured bi/pan "battle" is, and really unnecessarily damaging! It seems to me the general move is toward accepting both (or maybe I'm just optimistic).
Thank you for inviting people to find different ways to encounter others. There are so many archives of videos, voices, and papers. The elders were and are as complex as the youth, with a bank of different knowings, experiences and languages. The lines were a lot blurrier back in the day, and folks were just as messy. While there were definitely queer aesthetics, they were so often bound with other things that there was less overall dictating of those aesthetics and ways of being. Joy can be made and found, and community is something to build and share. Good luck, y'all.
I feel like if you stay long enough on twitter, you will eventually engage in a stupid argument. I can hold myself back by saving it as a draft everytime but i sometimes wonder why I go on a site where I have to practice maximum self control. Also reading bad and cringe takes is definitely addictive, made me realize how well social media is designed to keep you hooked
Twitter is a site that takes a lot of self control to use responsibly. When I first joined the site, I had gotten into way too many arguments about stuff that really does not matter, and it always left me frustrated and drained of energy. My stance nowadays is to only engage if you think you have a legitimate point and wanna correct some misinformation or something like that, make your points, and if you start seeing red, BACK OFF IMMEDIATELY. If someone is annoying you with replies, block them, as much as I don't like the idea of just blocking someone over a disagreement, some people are just not worth the time or effort to talk to. When you see something trending on twitter, sometimes you're better off not clicking on it.
The big problem is we've done a horrendously poor job regarding sex education in our schools. Many districts are still arguing whether to HAVE sex education at all. We're WAY behind countries like Denmark and Norway in this regard. We've failed abysmally in teaching kids the fundamental basics, much less the many nuances of the facts of life. The bigger problem is the hyper-capitalist economic system that we live in, which is deeply intertwined with the US hyper-power fascist Empire Mega-War Machine. This absolutely affects all of the efforts of LGBTQ+ people to get the important rights and gains that they've fought so long and hard for. Here's what's standing in the way: The White Racist System going back to the Doctrine of Discovery. The Male Patriarchal System. Classism and a deeply entrenched caste system, something that is never discussed here in the US. Oligarchal control of just about everything. Extreme, unprecendented transfer of wealth from everyone to the uber-rich oligarchs. Fascism and corporatism. Hyper-capitalism and hyper-consumerism. The One Party system that pretends to be two political parties. The US hyper-power Empire Mega-War Machine which keeps reaching new levels. And there is also our completely messed up educational system. Over half of US adults cannot read better than a 5th grader. Only 12% of American adults can read at a college level. Most educational resources on important topics like racism, sexism, gender, sexuality, economic class, capitalism, socialism, religion, and ecological issues are written at a college level by college-educated people. We're numerically illiterate. We're scientifically illiterate, something the pandemic made painfully clear. We're financially and economically illiterate. We're culturally illiterate. We're politically illiterate. We're sexually illiterate. We're geographically illiterate. We're emotionally illiterate. We have very poor research skills. The corporate powers and the ultra-rich oligarchs want the American public to be this way. George Carlin discussed this back in the 1990s and he was exactly right. We're also a very shallow, superficial society, something else the big and powerful players want us to be.
It's unfortunate, because it's not going to improve until the perceived "otherness" of non-heterosexuals has given way to mutuality and understanding. That can only be realized with education, so it's a cycle that's difficult to break.
As someone who is decidedly not queer, but watches your videos because they're informative on topics I know very little about, I think this is super broadly applicable in a lot of online communities. There does seem to be an extra vitriolic section of Twitter (one of my friends *very* actively participates in it, and looking at their profile is exhausting), but in general when I try to interact with people on the platform it's... rough. I've taken to just paying attention to certain people's profile pages in order to check in on them, which has made my interaction with the platform significantly less painful while still retaining all the good things about it (y'know, like keeping up-to-date with old acquaintances or checking in on people I haven't talked to in a while when I don't have the energy, discussion topic, or desire to have a conversation with them atm). Also I'm definitely gonna check out the black trans archive 'cause it just looks plain cool.
when i was like 12 i got introduced to kalvin garrah and then that spread into other queer discourse and it rlly screwed me over tbh, it was hard figuring out my own identity and especially my transness, i would bring this stupid discourse into real life settings and friendships, i would harass strangers because "they were the bad ones, they werent taking being lgbt serious, theyre why we dont have the rights we deserve" and it rlly caused issues in how i viewed myself and viewed others, i was worried that friends i was making were gonna be "those incluses", i viewed everything even remotely queer threw a discourse lense. Im glad i eventually realized how harmful and stupid i was and i just dont care anymore, people can do what they want and label themselves how they want, it doesnt impact me and i feel bad for everyone who went into that slope like i did, i genuinely love my identity so much now that im able to just let myself label with comfort and joy and focus on genuine issues in the queer community like the transphobia and racism and misogyny that are so very much there
I removed Facebook, Instagram, Tumblr, and Twitter from my phone and it's been AMAZING for my mental health. Now I just read news articles and take the time to really think about them and explore what I can do about it (often not much, sadly, but that's life). Consequently, as the video implies, I now feel somewhat disconnected from my community and I realize that it's because my "community" has been all online. :/
Great video! That thumbnail/title is gonna make this pop off in the _stoking the flames_ method of being heard that you mentioned. Your friends falling into transmedicalist ideas caught my ear; I'm a cis man, and I'm wary that I may have fallen for some as well. I'm aware of the medical gatekeepy weirdos who used it to exclude non-binary people or imply you MUST transition or you MUST have gender dysphoria to be trans, and I agree those are bad takes. But the parts that try to explain trans existence in a physical or medical way informed my _gamer_ brain of my current understanding trans people. Ideas like "differences in the brain" from being developed independently from sex characteristics, or it being a disorder of some sort (without the negative connotation to be clear, similar to how autism is just different and not a thing to be "cured"). Though if those are fundamentally flawed and harmful ideas, I want to learn more and know why. Does anyone know of any great resources for that? I'll do a search myself, but if you have something you'd be a great help! :0
My mom thinks the entire community is like this EVERYWHERE and not just online. She refuses to accept I'm pansexual or agender no matter what I tell her so instead I just went online and tried to be accepted in the queer community there. Unfortunately there's so much toxcicity there I got roped up into thinking everything should be accepted no matter how insane it was in reality and my life was honestly miserable. I pulled myself out of that mindset and now just enjoy my personal friends and occasional online friends acceptance, and am currently saving to move out lol. I just wish this whole discourse didn't exist, but if it didn't its likely something even wilder would take its place, so hey, I might as well just be glad I got out of that whole phase and hope that other people drag themselves out of it too.
Hi! I'm a straight brown guy who has several friends from the community, and i was shocked to see how while IRL they're super sweet and nice people, but in their social media they're the total opposite. Some even changed completely and started spouting stuff like "death to all men" while having drinks with me and other colleagues. I want them to feel fine and accepted, but their comments, while aimed at social constructs such as "men", can be too rough, too aggressive to shrug them off. Thanks for shedding some light on how it isn't a personal thing, that my friends aren't losing their mind or that they hate me (for the moment), but is a systemic malady of social media and lack of picnics. Great video and even more awesome cat!
When social media is your window into the world it feels like arguing with strangers is the only way to make a difference Holy shit I've been trying to figure out how to word this phenomenon for years!!!
I agree with weaning ourselves of social media. They have had so many sneaky, deceptive, and straight up dishonest ways to get people to get angry and argue with each other.
i resent how the internet has become MY primary social space. i live a very very small town in newfoundland with like 1000+ people with 60% of the population being elders. there is a queer community in my community, but i still feel kind of isolated at points. i am the only openly out trans feminine person i’ve ever known, navigating life as the only person like me has been confusing and difficult so unsurprisingly i’ve escaped to the internet. i’ve experienced many corners of the queer internet (specifically on instagram), including stan twitter and inclus/exclus wars, and it wears me the fuck out. only in the past year have i disconnected to a certain extent. although i have been more in touch with my local queer community, interacting with people outside my queer community aka cishet people have been just as fulfilling, i find myself enjoying life better when i’m genuinely educating others, and not immediately shutting others out because they aren’t queer. i wish others were able to do the same, but i do understand that a lot of peoples community’s can be extremely queerphobic.
I wonder what the antithesis would be because even in physical LGBT circles, things just feel at worst apathetic and, at best, marginally helpful to some people. With a few exceptions. Even "affirming" churches. Pan dude and lesbian nonbinary friend who just really have no idea where to go to feel accepted.
I like Vaush but his takes on kink at pride deservedly landed him in hot water last year. So glad he learned, he was much better this year. He actually pushed back against the kind of behavior he was engaging in himself the year before, in shoe0nhead.
Hello . As a Catholic Nun who still believes in living life as a reasonable--measured take , yr words , to me , are so empowering . Yu live yr best life , dearie . God bless .
I often find our use of terminology to be just.............bad. Just really really bad. It's both confusing and wonky.....AND strictly enforced with penalties meted out for the tiniest infraction. You'll get some well-meaning 60 year old who's open to the LGBTQ world...and tries to join the discourse....only to be thoroughly confused by what sounds like an alien language, accidentally say the wrong thing, and then be socially shamed and excluded. If we keep that up.....we're going to lose allies, genuinely frightening laws will be passed, and we'll find ourselves living in a world where correct terminology isn't even a thing anymore....because everyone is more worried about crossing state lines in order to not be sent to prison for a "gender infraction." Yeah....I'm a wee bit pessimistic about where we're heading politically, at least in America. And so many of my queer peers can be surprisingly cruel and dehumanizing of people who simply said the wrong word. And I just fear a cultural backlash that will take the form of laws that will truly genuinely objectively hurt our community. Anyway....I'm kinda ranting a bit at this point. I just worry.......a lot. god I miss the 90s....
The amnesia aspect makes things extremely ridiculous sometimes. For example, the very rapid and recent evolution around the terms “transgender” and “transsexual,” where it used to be that “transsexual” was the Good and Respectable one and “transgender” was the Awful term to use because it somehow denigrated the existence of the *real* transsexuals. Plus all of the interim stuff with “trans*” which took about two minutes to change from a term of inclusion to one of suspicion. I feel like the Internet has been a double-edged sword. It’s great that we have WAY more visibility and understanding and so on. But the rapid pace of how things change also make it very difficult for people to keep up, especially if they aren’t immersed in it, and if you’re not immersed in the right places things can go very wrong very fast.
The insane amount of pre-assumptions and people changing definitions as they see fit would not be a problem at all if everyone would listen long enough to the other side to understand their point and intentions first. At the end of the day, words and terms are merely tools that don't really matter, intentions do.
Having dealt with the insanity that is shipping wars on twitter, where people think bullying others for "problomatic ships" is a useful time, and not just - them feeling empowered through bullying. this video really hits home. thankyou. (and what's worse, many of the bullying uses conservative reactionary arguments - calling random people groomers for shipping in a time when conservatives are...doing just that, in real life, is really not a good look)
Brilliant essay. Just one thing: people don;t read. Never have. It's one of my greatest frustrations as someone who both reads *and* writes...woohoo! let''s roll back to the stone age...
Haha, I agree! Most people don’t read, and honestly I don’t think we can convince them to. We’re lucky to have so many podcasts/videos for those people tho
I think it's easy to say when reading comes easily to you. Some people really struggle with reading the same way some people struggle with math, and so reading or trying to becomes an unpleasant chore. It can also make them feel frustrated or stupid. Reading is also not the only way to receive information. Just as some people learn visually, some learn by hearing it, some learn by doing - some are a mix of those, some are the opposite. I myself can't listen to podcasts if I'm not watching them also (like on YT, such as WHGS). But I think we as a culture believe reading = intelligence, which implies that if you don't read or enjoy it you are less smart. So there are a lot of reasons why people don't read recreationally or intentionally. That said, reading always came naturally and easily to me from a young age and I was a voracious reader as a means of escapism in my youth. Typically I always have 3 books going at once. However some health issues have caused cognitive problems and now I can really struggle to read sometimes. It's not fun and it's given me some insight on how some people feel about it. I'll still keep trying to Read All The Books, but I don't think we help things or reduce exclusionist behavior by telling people they should read more - it's just another form of division: those who do vs. those who don't. I would like to see more discussions about a responsibility to be more *informed*, in whatever method works best for them.
@@bossyboots5000 I appreciate your sentiment here, Genuinely, I do. However, I am not talking about people with disabilities. The vast majority of people are perfectly able to read and yet, especially with the rise of "hot" media, still do not. Beyond that, I work in an industry where the production of documents specifying engineering details of how to operate systems is a key part of finishing the job. We then ship these documents, along with the systems, to the end users. AND THEY STILL DON'T READ THEM. People don't read. Even people who can read, don't read. And nobody actually reads internet comments ;)
You've got such an incredibly eloquent and poetic way of speaking. It's soothing as fuck to listen to and more than a little inspiring to my revolutionary heart.
I kinda miss the Queer Nation of the nineties & often think a "united queer front" would be better than the myriad of categories (& various opinions on categories) there is nowadays....
I don't know if I've ever heard something as relevant to the modern day as at 16:26 "We set aside all our similarities to bicker" Never have I heard something so true, and been so disappointed at its truth
i was called homophobic through dm by another gay guy because i didn't attend a social gathering that i was not invited to. It really hurt and confused me.
When I was younger, I’m thinking like 12 maybe? I used to identify as bilesbian because I couldn’t decide if I was bi or lesbian, I exclusively liked women except for 1 man. I thought that just calling myself bi meant I was attracted to all genders equally (in hindsight it doesn’t) but I thought bilesbian described me well enough. And you wanna know what happened? I got harassed, endlessly for being a stupid 12 year old that didn’t know I was accidentally being “problematic”. Nowadays I identify as aroace but damn people were rude to me.
Hii I saw ur profile bio and I don't wanna be rude but putting out what triggers you is the ultimate way to become a target to those said things. Trust me when I say youtube is NOT a safe space. I could understand if you put this out on tumblr or whatever where there are less bigots. But on here I don't think its safe for you to do this.
I disagree that people shouldn't be "Inclusionists",rather I think that term shouldn't need to exist I hate having to protect myself from harassment, bullying, death threats, just because I'm the "wrong" type of lesbian. If someone actively wants me dead, of course they're my enemy! But I really wish they weren't, ya know?
I agree entirely, I only loosely hold onto the "inclusionist" label so that within online queer spaces people can understand where I stand. But I genuinely hate the existence of the label, you either support queer identities or you don't.
@@bossyboots5000 from my time in queer discourse prob bi lesbian, pan lesbian, or mspec lesbian I don't entirely understand what all of those are still, but some people literally want people dead over it which is... excessive to say the least. People just rlly like to inspect others labels that make them comfortable for any possible imperfections.
@@Elli0t_26 my identity is not just a necessity for you to feel good it has history and its disrespectful to ignore that especially when it damages our already misunderstood image
this video is great, thank you. i'm reflecting on the many times i've either been sucked in or narrowly avoided being sucked into queer discourse. how close i've come to being reactionary over something a friend said, or cared way too much about the queer rep in a children's cartoon. social media makes it really hard to *not* be this way, and it feels like a constant battle to keep myself above water. i'm disabled, so going out to meet local queer folks is more difficult for me, so going without social media entirely is barely even viable to me. i keep my feeds chronological, refuse to use facebook specifically, and have found good friends i can have friendly debates with on controversial topics. we learn from each other this way, just like real life friends. i feel lucky to have them. making this chaotic internet landscape work is an uphill battle but i'll keep trying! and meeting local queers whenever possible, of course.
Hi, elder non-binary queer here, coming in with hot takes and good intentions: I was just speaking with a friend who is a middle school counselor, and they confirmed a fear of mine, that people who are too young to really understand all this discourse are exposed and internalizing it. They change their identity/pronouns every week and cry bullying when people can't keep up. It points to something I have been trying to formulate in words- that the linguistic boxes we have created aren't enough for the infinite possibilities for identity, that we shouldn't treat those boxes as permanent or complete ever, and that when we're young we shouldn't worry about labels and just be who we are. Labels are barely useful for describing yourself to others, umbrella terms like queer are helpful in describing us when we're still figuring it out.
This!!!! I think that we can grow and learn to except gender queer identities in more spaces better, but generally there is an issue with our use of labels in the queer community to define niche experiences - it's good to have a word to describe your lived experience, but it's divisive for your sense of community. It's also a result of this consumerist mentality that we need to define ourselves in categorical boxes in general
God forbid you say that on twitter/facebook and you'll be labeled as a gatekeeper and your experience and intentions will be ignored. On social media you're only allowed an opinion as long as it matches the hive mind and is made up of catchy slogans
@lemonssssssss4 yes, just follow your heart/mind/desire and worry about the label in retrospect. Or not! I still don't think I fit neatly into one box, either gender or sexuality, although for simplicity I can say I'm a lesbian. Does that cover everything? Absolutely not
@@CordeliaAurora yes, exactly, and this is a further issue with the young folk! How can you explore your own mind if you can't express it?!! How can you find out who you are if you are being told (even if by the best intentions)?
I have to say that talking to young queers (gen X here) can often be mind boggling. Especially the young LGB drop the T types. The absolute historical ignorance and disrespect for those of us that came before is almost enough to make one want to throw their hands up and say "you know what I'm done with this shit." I personally feel like you know I'm gonna die soon, and I spent my whole adult life fighting so I could be treated like the enemy by the youth of the community I helped build, so fuck 'em let them try to do this shit without any elder support.
