I was surprised to hear what JBP said about the Florida legislation regarding DIE, CRT, etc. Then I considered that JBP does his thinking out loud, in public, and doesn't have a problem admitting when he's made an error in judgment. I'm confident Chris's reasoning will win the day.
I think im with JP on this, government banning ideas in school is like banning free speech, you need to leave the platform open. Government regulation is a double edged sword, the ban can come from the left or right
@@smdanny1 true, but if you have de facto academic capture by the left, you can have all the free speech laws you want, but what then? You still won't be able to express them in a university.
You’re a moron. You want to let the Left include radical leftwing ideology in *publicly funded schools* and if the Right tries to stop that it’s censorship. Galaxy brain thinking.
@@markusrose9667 Debate will lead no where when the Left ideology is in control of the education system. It's his entire point. You clearly aren't listening. And he specifically is talking to people who are 'hesitating' to 'go from an intellectual point to a point of action" - Listen from 9:00 on.
@@VoyageMediaGroup thank you for the time stamp. I am really disappointed with Rufo here. I have no problem with abolishing DEI offices, banning CRT ideology K-10, requiring counterbalance if taught in 11 and 12. And I’m fine with taking over private higher ed institutions in order to build a counter-establishment. But banning it at public universities goes against every tenant of academic freedom. And saying IDW thinks all problems can be solved by podcasts is dishonest strawman. The way to take over institutions is to make compelling arguments. The fact is that the wokesters are making compelling moral arguments. And the other side is mischaracterizing the wokesters, saying they are talking about whites as “evil” when they aren’t. They’re simply making the same appeal that Marxists make, regarding unearned and undeserved intergenerational wealth. They just substitute race for class. White people supply the guilt themselves. The way we gain control over institutions and over the debate is to show white people why they have no reason to feel guilty. And the way to do that is to study and teach race realism, not to ban “racist speech” and eliminate academic freedom. It seems like the left and the right are competing to see who can be the biggest snowflakes.
Would LOVE to see you guys hash this out. Would be awesome if you could include James Lindsay in the conversation. Because it’s really something that needs to be picked apart.
No doubt JP is still talking from the leftist side of his academic mouth. Fortunately, others have already paved the road for him to stop equivocating and take a stand...e.g. Dr. James Lindsay et al.
Agreed. It is important to get this right. A debate between these three on this topic could be very illuminating. Jonathan Haidt is another one that comes to mind, considering his work in the Heterodox Academy.
@@Doutsoldome An extended panel discussion would be awesome. A half dozen heavyweights who can clear some air and present an intelligent take on what should not be impossible to clarify. And especially in lay terms. The mark of better writers everywhere.
@@djsmithknows his concern comes from a VERY good place. He hashed it out w Rufo today. So important for people to see that this concern of possible over-sensorship is something that Rufo and others are considering, and theyre able respond accordingly
Tremendous! Excellent response to JP. Love him, love you, love our Governor DeSantis, Manny Diaz, Corcoran, et al. We are blessed to live in Florida in this pivotal time - seeing so much heroic effort on all of your parts. This is how it’s done. Thank you. I’ve never been so excited about our Florida prepaid college plan! 😁
@@aprilc1077 A very big one apparently? No public figure like JBP or Ben Shapiro, or whatever RU-vid celeb you can think off, has actually DONE anything though apart from "win" the argument (but continually lose the war)
I think Chris is one of the smartest and most courageous people in America today. He’s willing to put into practice what so many can only theorize about. He is a beacon of light.
Agreed. I started following Rufo with gusto when he wrote the article “Separate but Equal.” I had already started learning about see-are-tee on my own when I read about Kendi, Robin DiAngelo, and a couple of other Rce-hu$tlers. This led me down a see-are-tee rabbit hole of incoherent ideas, espoused within certain circles, as the be all end all for “ending systemic račism.” AFAIK- prior to 2020 it wasn’t really known or talked about much, unlike in academia, as professors insidiously propagated the Marksist-inspired dreck to their students. AIt-Ieftists like to postulate that he “invented” conflict over see-are-tee when all he did was expose a malevolent ideoløgy. Had Rufo not exposed it when he did, US society and culture as a whole, would be far worse than it is today. I for one applaud the man. Bravo!
Having spent the past 4 years as a graduate student (online) in Canada, I love this debate. 3 times I tried to push back against the 'woke' elements of the school and graduate student's association and was met with the same response as is offered the general public...crickets. They don't want to hear from us; they don't want to acknowledge a debate, and they definitely DO NOT WANT YOU INVOLVED ON THEIR BOARDS AND COMITTEES! You are both right; you simply live in different political climates.
Yes, Jordan was too cautious. I think at the university level, when students are young adults leaving the nest and willing to move, then non-enrollment in woke schools speaks louder than government intervention. I agree completely with Rufo/ DeSantis for the elementary and secondary level.
@@audreyandremington5265 why can’t you go to college and argue with your teachers? Or better yet don’t argue with them but form clubs that bring conservative speakers to the college?
Great reply. I was disappointed in JP for saying that stuff. You're absolutely right that there's no marketplace of ideas, not practically. I also agree with your point that we have 2 parties and you have to choose. People who try to act like they're in the center and above it are just upholding the status quo, which means maintaining left wing dominance.
You are right Mr. Rufo. We must walk into these offices and insist on being treated equally. I watched your introduction to the faculty at New college, and these people were insisting with very little evidence that you are the problem. You are obviously poking the bear in his cave, because it is screaming. I am with you and support you.
I usually like Jordan Peterson and find his thoughts and ideas to be incredibly spot on, but in this case he is very wrong and Chris is spot on. Excellent response, tremendously well thought out without resorting to negativity.
I would LOVE for Jordan Peterson to respond to you on this video. I respect & like you both a lot. We could all benefit from hearing you two flesh this out in the public arena where we can have the opportunity to think & refine
In order to completely remove DEI, there should be a new proposal based in the importance of personal character, drive, critical thinking, resiliency and job skills
This is called traditionalism. It was the driving set of virtues that led the West since about the 10th century. It's based on the classical cardinal virtues (prudence, temperance, courage, justice), individuals understanding that their life is not about them, and belief in a higher power and right authority. You are right to highlight this. DEI assimilation is only a symptom of the problem which is philosophical: our core underlying values and axioms have been replaced slowly over the last 200 years and this is the actual cause of our problems. We need to be tackling the problem at that level.
when you introduce DEI into a society that is basically at a Equality threshold already you are clearly going to tilt things into tyranny. But the people who introduced DEI always had ulterior motives I suspect
“… podcast utopia.” That is so great. Heartfelt thanks (from a scholar in exile) for all that you are doing in the realm of educational reform, Chris. Recent progress at New College of Florida has been amazing and inspiring.
Agreed. Jordan's argument seems to say there is no line that should be drawn. What if they were teaching full out violent, extremist doctrine? And teaching something as fact is different than open discussion.
I admire Jordan and respect his opinions greatly. But for me, Chris Ruffo, I believe has won this argument. Thank you Christopher Ruffo, for expressing your ideas in such an elegant way.
Excellent rebuttal. I admire Dr. Peterson's recently announced plan to form an alternative to the WEF that answers its own set of global questions. It's a mystery to me why he's hesitant to support the Florida initiatives in restoring balance to education. If you're an influencer, don't sit around and whine on a podcast--come up with an action plan and execute. I'm thrilled with both initiatives!
I agree with Dr. Peterson in theory and if we had a perfect world where ideas could be objectively debated and decided. That's not the world we live in. Instead, if you push back against the woke mind virus, those in that crowd seek to destroy you, your career, and go after your family. Dr. Peterson knows this fact all too well.
Rufo and DeSantis are NOT seeking to debate and NOT seeking objectivity. They are seeking removal, termination, subjective dismissal and rejection of CRT and DEI. The concepts and ideas are no longer debatable, since their effects are evident throughout the entire education system and the Nation's institutions at large. The 'theory' of Critical Theory, and the 'Race Theory' of Critical Race Theory are no longer theoretical, whatsoever. Understand that CRT was created out of the critique of the perceived unfair results of the Civil Rights Movement by Derrick Bell in the late 80's and early 90's. Kimberle Crenshaw and Bell articulated the Tenets of CRT in 1995 at the U. of Chicago. The world we live in is both theoretical and open to debate, as well as objective and subject to verifiable truths. JP is not, at least in this exchange, is not allowing for the reality of objective truths that CRT and DEI have created. This is where Rufo takes umbrage and opposition. Rufo has been attacked, and yet still stands courageously. DeSantis has been attacked, yet still stands courageously. Glenn Younkin has been attacked, yet still stands courageously. Many leaders have been attacked, yet still stand courageously. JP knows well what attacks result in. So do those who still stand courageously.
Brilliantly argued! Very persuasive. Looking forward to seeing Dr Jordan Peterson's thoughtful response, or a filmed discussion between these two fine intellects.
"A delusion that we can solve it with a podcast." YES. Rufo this is incredibly coherent and I'll be interested to see how JBP responds if he does at all. So excited to have you here! Our state didn't become a political marvel in the last few years merely by lobbing philosophical theory around on twitter. #MakeNewCollegeGreatAgain
I’m a JP fan but on this and some other topics his abstract philosophical positions come across to me as hedging. There are clearly limits to what can and cannot be taught inside of a public school classroom. Laws that define those limitations are not censorship. Also, CRT (and its practical application, DEI) are well defined and clearly identifiable (Delgado and Stefancic for example?). JP missed the mark on this one big time.
Thank you for your work Chris! You are absolutely correct on all counts. My son had a year of CRT in his school, which created division and resentment among the kids. I spoke with the principal and teachers about more pro-social ways to teach diversity, and they nodded politely but did not change, and as far as I could tell, they had no intention to change, as they kept getting more radical. I pulled my son out and put him in a Catholic school that is much better, but not everyone has that option. It still bothers me that my tax dollars are paying for this, while the reading and math scores in our district are abysmal.
yes, you have what the progressive Liberals would refer to as a 'lived experience', lol. But not to be laughing at you, just to point out the hypocrisy of their agenda. It is beyond ludicrous to expect this CRT-based pedagogy to result in anything but division, resentment, jealousy, and mistrust, among other nasty and destructive emotions and behaviors. Good on you for removal from it.
I don't think so, he is just keeping to his knowledge base. He isn't stepping beyond his talents... He knows he is an academic and thinker, not a policy person. Those are very different fields and they require people with different skills.
You are right on Chris. I was skeptical that you could prove Jordan Peterson to be wrong. But you are right. The rules have changed and taking a more extreme stance to change the extremism that has ruined our educational institutions is needed. JPs caution is to not let the correction also become the extremism. But I have faith with people like you and Desantis, you guys do "get it" as Peterson recognizes.
Agree wholeheartedly. Still, I would suggest that referring to Rufo and DeSantis legislative efforts as 'an extreme stance to remove the extremism' is a very inaccurate label. For me, the anti-DEI and anti-CRT-based positions should be seen as careful and deliberate efforts, fair and just efforts, and efforts to correct and remove unfair and unjust imposition of racial strife and inequality that are ripping our Nation's education system apart. Perhaps it is extreme to awaken the good and fair heart and courage in all citizens...but I consider it a call to action that is no more extreme than banning certain phone apps from a minor child.
Thank you for doing the hard work and making the hard decisions and ACTING. I love Jordan but he is not only wrong on this he is uninformed. Like his comment about "banning CRT" when FL is actually banning specific indoctrination concepts and racist practices.
I believe Rufo clearly states that CRT is used as a "definition', suggesting that it is very easy and clear as to what must be removed and not allowed. Teachers are not to be permitted to espouse the CRT-based pedagogy used in K-12 and other public education. At timestamp 2:10, he discusses that certain state laws ban certain specific activities, you are correct. In order for JP to perhaps more precisely understand CRT as it is currently applied via DEI programs, he should become intimately familiar with the beginnings of CRT, which originate with Derrick Bell and his student disciple Kimberle Crenshaw at the U. of Chicago, circa 1995. There are 5 Tenets of CRT that emerged out of Critical Theory. Derrick Bell clearly articulated his race-based theories based on what he perceived as unequal and inequitable results of the Civil Right movement, and began to criticize the disparities he uncovered as a result of racial discrimination. It is most disturbing to see this perception now be the dominant and prevalent concept still being applied, specifically via DEI, and previously Affirmative Action programs and quotas. Let JP not be the focus of Rufo's energy; for it is much more essential for action to be the order of the day in legislative and governing bodies against the CRT-based and DEI-based pedagogy. Let JP's brilliance be another sideline and bleacher debate, but let the players on the field go to battle.
Rufo is right. Rufo is right!! I like JP, but unfortunately he wants to pretend he's above politics and would prefer to dwell in his own head where action is unnecessary. I forgot who said it but "Ideas without action are meaningless!!!!"
Oh No, I have to watch Rogan now to hear the whole conversation. I personally cannot believe Dr. Jordan Peterson said this. Starting to wonder if he is being threatened🤔
Maybe a small criticism, but this could have been framed in more conciliatory fashion. E.g. "JP is absolutely right that CRT is difficult to define, which is why we didn't try. The actual legislation addresses specific divisive & discriminatory practices..."
I agree- this video kinda comes across aggressive while saying "here's where you haven't gone far enough" Peterson has been criticizing the left, but he's still a centrist compared to some folks
JP also said it is impossible to define Marxism and to define socialism. So, whilst JP's point might be made, CRT is not an ambiguous concept, mired or steeped in confusing theoretical jingoism. There are 5 tenets of CRT, and they are very clear. One can find the praxis, or application, of these tenets in DEI and SEL, where the oppressor v. oppressed, and the race of privilege v. the race of submission, are specifically taught and ingrained. This is perhaps why Rufo is adamant, and direct, and confronts JP with robust criticism. I disagree that this podcast was not conciliatory. Rufo made several distinct conciliatory remarks to JP.
The one big thing I would agree with Rufo over Peterson is on a pretty basic and salient point: When it comes to left-right, progressive-conservative, activist-conservationist, etc. One thing the minions, cadres, believers and radicals, all those who have marched through the institutions for the past 30-40 years have proven beyond doubt - is that free and open debate, discussion, persuasion and open minded, open ended thought is not how we arrive at belief systems that are dumped upon a population whether they like it or not. Which is authoritarianism. Among other things. Of course it is a known fact that a majority of population, whatever number that adds up to, do not agree with the common dogmas put forward, and that they are in compliance more out of fear and of a wish to protect themselves. This is not the result of a mechanism within a free society in possession of free speech, thought, expression and application of conscience. Which, I don't know about you, but brings to my mind the consequences of the rise of a Third Reich, or a Maoist regime, or a Pol Pot, or a Stalin. Extreme as they may be, an ultimate outcome of where this is all going. Not that Dr. Peterson isn't aware of all this. But it's an interesting point. Does the action/reaction result in a kind of frenzied overzealous game of "whack-a-mole" as we discover how proponents of post-modernist chaos and mayhem simply re-define terms at the speed of light? Or at least any speed deemed desirable to stay one step ahead of its detractors. What an abysmal waste of time. I still think that proponents of CRT and Gender politics have made horrific social mistakes. LIke trying to cancel parents in the lives of their children. As if the large and sum total of parenthood across the land, and all the power to be found therein, cannot ultimately and eventually sweep aside that which they find deeply offensive and dangerous to their children. Eventually , some kind of act, consequence or result that becomes solidly defined as a racist attack upon a white child (by a so-called "educator") for no other reason than skin color, sooner or later that accusation of racism is going to stick, it will go to court, it will set a precedent, and there you have it. I have no idea what happens when a landslide of lawsuits descends upon the ragtag team of medical hucksters who have preyed upon innocent children in order to buff up that great transformative industrial complex for fun and profit. Value-added kids no different than Idaho spuds springing to life as MacDonald's fries. And so it goes. On the usefulness/uselessness of DEI : As long as one complainant can cancel out or even cause a concerted attack upon a fact, statement, provable point that a thousand other intelligent random people support, we have no common bond with or working mechanism of a democratic process. That dissent is mined by bad actors for a purpose. This is the part that fascinates me. Millions of intelligent people ac cross the land have very little difficulty picking apart the weak and useless arguments employed to justify the actions of people taken to dismantle our society. Ridiculous tropes such as the idea that hard work and discipline are some kind of white supremacy. There are thousands of these expressions of profound stupidity, and more show up every day. None of them carry any weight, but that's not the point. We labor under the illusion that there must be some unassailable reason that these idiocies have captured our institutions and much of the processes normally used to balance out the "gyroscope" of public discourse and the business of the nation. When in fact, most of this tripe cannot stand up to any form of real scrutiny. Therefor it must instead shut down every act of questioning the very foundations of thought that produced the stuff in the first place. And so we arrived at that place: certain things that cannot be said, pointed out, opinions expressed, data examined, and all the usual processes through the usual institutions - the press, the media, the academy. This may look like Authoritarian-lite at the present, but the damage and mischief planned is far from achieved. This is just a basic test run. I'll quit, with a brief description of the thing that I detest the most about all this garbage. After spending a lifetime learning and applying the habits of social cohesion, respect, aspects of acceptance, admiration, fascination, and to borrow a phrase from those venerable San Francisco poets of long ago - just digging people... I'll be damned if I'm going to be instructed, educated, enjoined or beseeched, smarmed, swathed, mollycoddled or gaslighted by idiots for whom I have very little or no respect at all. That they can teach me something better than what I already know about how to embrace my fellow human with genuine intent - is a cosmic joke. These brutal and cruel misanthropes would teach me how to love? How to hate, is far more likely. Which is not on board with my agenda. The jig is up. The ones who would torment me don't give a flying crap about whether I do this or not. That is not their intention, mission, purpose or plan. They are after something entirely different. And they prove it to scrupulous watchers every single day. You just have to know how to stop, look and listen.
Mr. Rufo not only clarified the reasons why CRT, Woke-ism, and Marxism in our public institutions, schools, etc should be completely abolished since these only serve no one in any way what so ever. I completely and totally agree with Mr. Rufo, period! In my humble estimation he is A TRUE AMERICAN HERO. He tells it like it is = The TRUTH!
In 10 years after Rufo and DeSantis have cleaned up Florida's education system and a couple classes have graduated under proper education we will be on track to win over these corrosive ideologies completely. Skilled people with good work ethic will be appearing in front of employers and they are going to see Florida educations on the resumes. These employers will compare this to the activists getting churned out by the other institutions and soon other states will have to follow Florida's example or they won't be able to compete. The DEI apparatus will die under the weight of competition that isn't trying to destroy everything it touches.
Contact Dave Rubin and organize a dialogue with Jordan. I will pay to have this debated with perhaps CRT advocates included. You are both right but we really need an intellectual discussion
I'm a survivor of Social Justice abuse, which precisely includes Critical Race Theory. More generally, discrimination on the basis of race and gender (white man). I'm so grateful we have people so dedicated to developing some high level solutions here. I'm really grateful he shared skepticism of it. We rarely ever get skeptical and contemplative thinking on how to move forward effectively in the culture war from people who also don't support Social Justice. I really want to see that diverse exploring, considering the moral and practical results of different strategies. Social Justice proponents will only criticize from their ideology, which is severely lacking. When I was working around SJWs/leftists, I often lacked the challenge and support that would help me be my best self, because their criticisms were mediocre. Glad to see Chris responded. My interpretation of Jordan's concern is primarily about backlash. Will these laws really be effective and sharp enough that they cut through the backlash or also take steps to prepare for that backlash? The clarity in this video is helpful.
You are right on target, Christopher. This stuff has been analyzed ad nauseum. The problems have long been identified. It's time for people to take action. I admire your courage. Don't forget to retreat to you zen place now and then so the fight doesn't drain you of all your soul capital.
I agree with public institutions being checked by the public. CRT label just kinda pins it as left vs right instead of civil liberties and indoctrination.
The risk of a swing too far in the other direction is quite real. But when the war is already almost lost...you do what it takes to win and then you discuss peace rules after
I watched that podcast and thought what the hell is he talking about. You can’t define CRT? That’s nonsenses maybe he needs to read James Lindsay’s Race Marxism. It literally defines it in vivid detail. I am so impressed with what your doing in Florida. It gives me hope and is the blueprint for what other states need to do. Keep up the great work!
JP uses the Socratic method of dialectic quite a bit. And it can be a very effective method for debate. But it is not a debate any longer. Children who have been exposed to CRT-based pedagogy and DEI influence are now the school principals, the school board trustees and superintendents, the college professors and academic think-tank moderators, the professors of the colleges of education, the administrators of local, state, and federal departments of education, and on and on. The legacy of this poison is now rearing its head everywhere imaginable; museums, military branches of service, courts and justice systems, city, state, and federal parks, stores and shopping centers, digital commerce, Internet transactions and exchanges, the halls and floors of statehouses, the halls and floors of the U.S. Congress, and on and on. So, we can observe JP elucidate in the manner of William F. Buckley, which leads to more long-winded rhetoric...OR we can climb on the Rufo/DeSantis bandwagon and get some action going to repel to cancer of CRT-based education and DEI-based indoctrination.
Peterson railed on the corruption of education regularly but is disengaged enough now to not see there are people accurately diagnosing the roots of problems he pointed out for years, and trying to fix it. It’s not often he’s wrong, but here it is.
Massive misstep, Jordan. Given the gravity of the crisis we are in - could you not have debated this with Chris in private? Rather than open up a divide in the resistance movement??
C. Rufo is absolutely right here, and I believe JB Peterson himself would agree if he were presented with all the facts, which I suspect hasn’t been the case yet.
Rufo was right to respond and he laid out his arguments precisely. If JP didn’t have all the facts, he should have withheld questioning him publicly and instead had a private conversation with Rufo. Peterson is an incredibly intelligent man. Smarter than me and most people in the world. Despite that, he is naive when it comes to how power is utilized and fails to see the flaws in classical liberalism.
Brilliantly, profoundly smart riposte to Peterson. Who, on closer analysis , will surely grasp Rufos inexorable logic. The insights re going from the rational, academic and intellectual ..to the practical, the dynamic and the active?...well that's the very heart of the issue. And your brilliance Mr Rufo lies in getting straight to the heart of these multifaceted ,deep dyed disputes. Thanks, you couldn't be any clearer.
A parable of the (Woke) camel One cold night in the desert, a man is sleeping in his tent, having tied his camel outside. But as the night grows colder, the camel asks his master if he can put his head in the tent for warmth. “By all means,” says the man; and the camel stretches his head into the tent. A little while later, the camel asks if he may also bring his neck and front legs inside. Again, the master agrees. Finally, the camel, who is half in, half out, says “I’m letting cold air in. May I not come inside?” With pity, the master welcomes him into the warm tent. But once the camel comes inside, he says: “I think that there is not room for both of us here. It will be best for you to stand outside, as you are the smaller; there will then be room enough for me. And with that, the man is forced outside of his tent. How could this happen?
Great work Chris. Just watched you and JP and I'm catching up on your videos, I admire you both. That being said I think what you're doing is nothing short of heroic.
In my opinion JBP needs to have the courage of his convictions and stand alongside Rufo on this. He has on many occasions stated that the leftist ideologues will go scurrying back to the dark as soon as people have the courage to confront them and call them out.
My ears perked up on that point the moment JBP said it on Rogan. I was wondering if I'd see a response video explicating the flaws in his argumentation, but I didn't think it'd come straight from the horse's mouth. Great work, Mr. Rufo!
