Mike, being the technical person you are, maybe clarify frame lean and and actual lean angle. The bike's lean angle in relation to vertical (frame lean) is one thing, but the width of the tire changes the 45°=1.0g considerably. For that to be true we need to have a theoretical zero-width tire, and the rider centered over the bike's CofG. The effective lean angle would equate to the real lateral G's. That would have to be measured from the center of force of the contact patch up to the combined CofG, minus the corner's camber. I think you know this already, but just saying. For context, no street legal Ferrari has gone over 1.2 lateral G's on a skidpad.
Have a look at my video on hanging off ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-hEJv4JDYyDU.html To summarize: 1. Hanging off only slightly reduces the motorcycles lean angle 2. The tires width impacts the effective lean angle 3. In a lot of cases the tire width and rider hanging off basically 'cancel' each other out Assuming the following: A motorcycle that weighs 190 kg CoG height of 0.55 m above ground Rear tire width 0.18m Front tire width 0.12 m A rider that weighs 88 kg Rider CoG 1.165m above ground Hanging off 0.4 m from bike center line (that is ALOT, I can get my navel about 0.2 ish meters away from bike center). In a 0 deg camber corner, 55 degrees of motorcycle lean angle will equal ~1.43 Lateral G. Almost exactly the same as the calculation for a 0 width tire. 1 Lateral G is ~43 degrees of motorcycle lean angle in this specific case. Again very close to the 0 width tire case. Have a look at my video on hanging off and you will follow. I simplified things in this video to get to the point. The numbers given in this video all check out with an actual motorcycle, tire width, rider etc.
To answer a lot of questions at once: The motorcycles lean angle is directly related to the Lateral G forces the tires are experiencing. This is how we can estimate the lateral G forces the tires are experiencing based on the lean angle we see a motorcyclist carrying. So in other words: - Saying that 'the riders are losing grip because of lateral Gs; not lean angle' is erroneous. Lateral Gs and Lean angle are directly related. - Saying that 'the riders are losing grip because they lean too much with not enough speed' is erroneous. If you maintain speed and lean the motorcycle more, you are decreasing the corner radius, this increases the lateral Gs the tires are experiencing. Another question people had was about dragging pegs. At what lean angle the pegs will start to drag will depend on the specific bike. On a lot of modern sports bikes you will run out of grip before you drag pegs. On most cruisers it is the opposite; You will drag pegs before running out of grip. In the case of cruisers, dragging the pegs can also result in lifting the tires of the asphalt and losing grip that way. To reiterate: Lean angle & lateral Gs are directly related.
exactly! the most dangerous thing and still not fixed. we have one like this in my homecountry and instead of fixing it over the decades they added a 60km/h speed limit to that section last year. (statistically this 1km section is the most dangerous here countrywide because of the weighted number of serious and fatal accidents)
@@omlett.1 😂 nothing needs to be fixed, it’s a public road not a racetrack. And even if it was a racetrack it would be a great technical corner, it’s very tricky in both directions at speed. If you can’t handle the pace you’re riding don’t blame the road
@@Red5 well, such a thing shouldn't be fixed on a racetrack to have a great technical corner, but definitely needs to be fixed on a public road where noobs are also riding/driving. that's what i meant :) it's not fun when you are stuck behind a roadblock because someone crashed his car/bike due to a "great technical corner" in the mountains.
@@omlett.1 doesn’t need to be fixed. The road isn’t the problem. It’s riders treating a public road like a race track. You can go through that turn with absolutely no problem if you aren’t trying to be a wannabe Valentino Rossi.
Definitely feel like more explaining needs to be done. Wouldn't you scrape peg before you lean to far? And this a rather tight corner where the riders aren't going that fast.
Well, apart from what Mike said in the video, which is 100% true, the roads in the USA have not so good quality asphalt. Furthermore, the roads are usually not properly manteined, you can often see cracks and potholes. And in the case of the MH, sometimes even gravel from other people crashing or simply from the rain.
I think it’s partly explained already. Riders coming in too fast for that sharp of a turn with tires not able to withstand the forces. Many of the crash videos I’ve seen the riders haven’t achieved maximum lean angle but instead crash due to traction loss. Coming in too hot or gettin on the throttle too hard. Also road conditions are a major contributor. Dirt, grime, and all kinds of stuff can be on a public road but riders treat it like a prepped and maintained track. Yes theoretically you would scrape pegs prior to going past the lean angle limit but that’s only assuming they have stock pegs. Many of the riders there are using aftermarket rear sets and pegs with can be smaller and sit up higher which would allow a greater lean angle before scraping. Also can’t forget how he mentioned riders know cameras will be watching that corner. So it’s also likely the rider is more willing to push even after the peg scrapes just for the camera.
I dont know the math behind it but I would assume it would have to be the difference between maximum lean angle, where the peg scrapes- and grip limit, where you loose traction like Mike is talking about. Many of rider are loosing grip before maximum lean angle because they dont know how to properly turn the bike and accelerate out of the turn like Mike points out briefly in the video. They often show the speedometer in motogp races and its common for them to take turns at 35-40 mph as they brake before and during the turn then accelerate when they pass the apex of the line and are reducing lean angle. There is also the addition of this particular corner having positive camber to it, to be honest I thought this would play a part into why people were crashing in addition to general road condition.
@@iSangreVerde well road quality definitely depends on the state/county/city, as each has it's own budget for road maintenance. Generally, they're not that great for "spirited riding" 😉 .
Funny thing. That corner has been a problem spot for decades. I used to go to the rock store every weekend, (thought I was fast, but found out I was delusional when I went racing on a real track)..Back to the point, Mulhund Drive was a hot spot since James Dean era. Unfortunately, now rich people are building mansions up there and complaining about noise, so police presence is constant on weekends.
That’s so depressing to think about. One day, there will be no roads to ride anymore due to more houses being built. Track days are nice but it’s not as easy as just hopping on the bike and going to your favorite section, it’s also free. We know it’s illegal to have fun on these roads but…. You’re going to die one day so what…
Can confirm. Rich people have ruined Mulholland. There's even signs up about "repeated runs" so it's actually illegal to turn around and do multiple runs on the road. It's PUBLIC highway that rich fucks with connections in CHP have made into their private drive.
When my brother and I visited Deal's Gap, we both made the conscious decision to slow down every time we saw the photographers. We both were talking each other down because we'd ridden such a long way to get there and didn't want to look like a couple of losers high-siding right over one of the many cliffs. That said, it was a blast and we had a ton of fun. I want to go back - SOON. Thanks for your video man!
One of my friends has a couple great shots of him going down in front of a photographer.. I went down two days later when not even pushing it “much” because something I didnt see was probably on the road.
I've been at the track at the professional training. Broke my spine on 3rd session. No one teached me how to fall from the bike. So i was on my first and last track day:)
Mike, I enjoy and value your technical information and while I think your explanation is relevant it doesn't quite get to the root of the problem regarding this corner vs others on the drive. A rider using excessive lean angles beyond their tire's capabilities may crash at any other corner when exceeding the capabilities of the tire. This corner, is significant because it is a sharp left-hand corner and the road camber on the rider's side and direction, effectively increases the lean angle of the bike without rider input. The same corner can safely be taken in the opposite direction because the road camber effectively reduces the bike's lean angle (speed and tire grip limits remaining similar). I suspect many riders either forget or never integrated the influence road camber has in a right vs a left-hand corner.
I remember watching those RNickyMouse videos and thinking that many of the sport rider I would see crash seemed to get too greedy with the throttle on corner exit and they would lose the rear and lowside. I also think I remember seeing a lot of riders go into Survival Reaction mode, as Keith Code would say. Lots of riders going wide because they would tense up and target fixate. Your video adds another layer to the equation and more to think about. Very interesting stuff. Thanks for the video!
I like your videos but this one misses the mark IMO. Yes people are crashing because they are going too fast for the corner. That doesn't explain what makes this corner different (which may well be just what you said at the beginning - pressure to show off for the cameras).
Can’t wait until track day. My first one ever!! So hyped finally a place I’ll feel safe enough to push myself. I’ve already wrecked on the road so I no longer do those things on the street. I’m excited to attempt touching my elbow and seeing where my progress line ends from where it has begun.
I completely understand your explanation, I guess where I am confused is that I have seen numerous videos of people on this very corner hitting even greater lean angles than 45 degrees, such as the older r1 that was literally dragging elbow. perhaps it was just different conditions of the day or the body positioning of the rider
I used to go through that canyon and the surrounding canyons every weekend before it got popular. I had a ZX7R at the time and one day I went a bit more aggressive than I normally did. As I was getting close to the exit of the curve my footpeg hit the pavement and caught. The rear of the bike sort of bounced and when it landed got all squirrely. It straightened out and all was good, but I think I had to change my underwear after that close call.
Good to know, i live near there and am just now practising my leans. Didnt know my tires wont be capable of 60deg leans... Seems like something i should have known last month.....
TBH if you're getting at 60 degrees of lean angle on an open road you're crazy. 45 is already a lot for an open road where you have imperfect conditions, and other drivers
A lot (most) of riders go down there because they cross up their body position. They get their butt off the seat and strain to get a knee down by keeping their torso closer to the bike’s midline. Thus they require more lean angle and lose traction and crash. If they moved their torso more inside the bike and had less lean angle, they’d have better traction and the suspension would work better to keep the rubber on the road. It comes down to training.
I'd say from what I've seen , most of those riders have never scrubbed those tyres at that lean angle. They are effectively riding on a "new" part of the tyre.
I noticed alot of the crashes at Mullholland was that they have their front suspension way too stiff for the conditions. Sometimes you can see the front tire just bouncing off the street just before the crashes. You must set your suspension as soft as possible, not as stiff as possible.
Good thoughts, Mike. Don't discount the quality of the PAVEMENT, (which looks pretty poor, from the many images of this infamous corner). Different regions use different materials for their tarmac; that one looks down-right POLISHED. Question: are more riders losing the FRONT or the REAR? That would tell a lot.
I've been going around that turn for many years. It's really tight and low speed. For most bikes, it's right between first and second gear. I have found what works for me is to go slow on the inside of the turn and don't show off.
There is one more major point. Notice how all the crashes are uphill. A lot of the riders there are certain that they need to brake with rear brake while going uphill, which stresses the rear that is already limited by load and lean, and it just lets go.
They'll never have this opened again. The locals hated the bikes coming through it and plus the fires from a few years ago destroyed the roads. Malibu apparently said it was going to be stupid money to repair. I think its just a way to prevent cars/bikes running up it anymore.
Another observation is that it’s a long uphill corner. Cornering reduces speed. Without sufficient throttle in-corner you are dropping a lot of speed while cornering so you need to reduce lean angle. Maybe the riders go too slow mid corner and fall over?
Before the fires closed the road I used to ride here frequently, but even though I ride an older sport bike I just don't take myself seriously enough to test my limits there. Not saying I don't feel cool on my bike sometimes but I'm not so delusional that I believe I'm going to look like a MotoGP star or even an amateur club racer, and to the best of my knowledge no one's handing out awards when you reach the top. The cameras and people actually cause me to slow down even more sometimes because it's distracting and I have no desire to make the list of people that have gone down trying to look cool there haha.
Mike, all these things you say do play a big part in it but i assure that the secrete to this turn, speaking from experience, that's were i practiced often every weekend with my fellow riders before i moved to Georgia, but the secrete is that its a J turn. Look at it from satellite view if need be. lesser experienced riders don't hit the apex right and panic when the turn appears to close up on them especially when the target fixate. Many of my friends have laid it down on that spot. Plus most riders go faster going up hill and that sets newer riders up with a false since of security. Most of us do track days too so people think they can go as fast as the more experienced riders too. We call it it the snake. that profile image of me was taken there riding my classic rc51.
I think it's more that a lighter bike would have to go faster around the same radius to generate the same gforce as a heavier bike. But I'm not a science guy...
Looks great with that much lean angle, but way too much risk. Learning to brake hard before turns and good trail braking will make you a much faster and better rider without the lean angle risk.
Personally don't understand how so many people crash there, as from what I can see it is not a very technical road. Sure some corners look entertaining enough but I know many roads that are a significant amount more technical
I don't think anyone's actually out there thinking "I can lean as far as they do in MotoGP", primarily because on the bike you have no idea (especially when inexperienced) how far you're leaning. They're simply carrying too much speed to show off (as you said), and can't feel the limit as they blow right past it.
After brazilian jit jitsu one of the female members was behind me and i was trying to show off in front of her. I was going to make a left turn and was waiting for a chance. I accelerated hard and pushed on the left handle bar hard and breaked progressively hard. Idk what pilots feel but it was close to that.
The road asphalt is WAY slippery than any track asphalt. Also, ppl trust street tyres way too much and with way too high pressure for what they want them to do.
also watch superbike/superstock racing...it's closer to riding a production sportbike I can't find the video to link, but scott redding (in one of his videos) said that motogp motorcycles shouldn't even be called motorcycles because they are so different
this section of road has been closed since 2018 because of a wildfire and subsequent washout farther down the road. unfortunately, this road has gotten too famous and this was too juicy of an opportunity and they refuse to fix it siteing some bs funding issue even though every washout since has been fixed immediately. anyway, the people who take pictures have moved further down Mulholland. and their new spot hasn't ended up on youtube. good thing they cant close all the roads tho there is still stunt, yerba buena, decker canyon and many other arguably better sections of road are still open just don't have a good spot for a camera.
this doesn't explain anything, did you calculated g-force? without calculating it's stupid to assume that it's exceeded. most common reason is lack of experience, slippery/cold tires on edges, sand/small rocks on road.
Hey, I haven't seen a vid from Mike in a while . . . other YT account: "Here, try this video on motorcycles from some fellow called Mike" Hey, that's newer than the last one I watched! ***copy link, change to browser running main login, paste and go*** Main account: "This old place? You ain't subbed anymore . . . what? You wanted to stay subbed to this channel?"
I think its actually the opposite. They are coming in with their normal speed but leaning the bike more to show off for the cameras. They lack g force to press them in to the corner and just slide out. If they were coming in too hot they would lose the front.
@@JRodSMX normal speed for a sport bike rider. You have to be going fast to get a good lean angle and not crash. Plenty of videos showing guys going faster with high lean angles making that exact corner.
@@archiewilson4943 not all sport bike riders use the street as a track. Gives a bad rep for the rest of us. Besides I’ve been there and that corner has a camber change mid turn. You can’t maintain the same lean angle through the entire turn… well I guess you can but we have countless videos on them crashing lol. The riders you see going fast through there have a better body position and know to begin getting the bike upright before accelerating out of the turn. Lean angle and speed are far from the only factors in that turn. Also how they enter that corner often makes a huge difference. Which is why we see so many crash there. People used to park there just to see the crashes rather than watching the fast riders lol. Also coming in too hot doesn’t mean you’ll lose the front. The ones coming in too hot usually under steer and crash. Hundreds of videos showing that as well. Seen plenty going around that turn at much slower speeds and still crash. The day I went to the snake we saw 7 riders go down at that exact spot.
@@JRodSMX you basically agree with me. The ones that just run wide weren't even trying to make the corner they are giving up on it. They are not the subject of this video. You said it yourself, they apply throttle before picking up the bike. You have to do this if you are too slow for your lean angle. I have seen this over and over again with guys trying to get their knee or elbow down.
@@archiewilson4943 it’s not done because they’re going too slow. Getting the bike upright before accelerating is done at both low and high speeds. Being leaned over while trying to accelerate out of the corner will result with the rear stepping out like it did in this video. Or perhaps you meant they are leaning far too much for their speed? I’ve seen that in this corner many times. Riders exaggerate their lean angle or the turn was sharper than they expected so they try to lean more to compensate not knowing the camber of the turn isn’t consistent all the way through. That’s also a factor in this corner. Many of those crashing here don’t have much experience with that turn so it’s likely they go into it thinking they just need to hold the line and ride it through. There’s allot that we could consider being a factor on why many crash there. I think we can narrow it down to people riding beyond their limits on the street.
Consistently reach 65 degrees? U watch motogp often? Dude barely anyone has reached that. Even Marquez often tops out at 62deg its not necessary for everyone's riding style
