For all the fans who don’t agree, don’t take personal shots at The Gold Man. He’s one of the few SW RU-vidrs that posts positive videos and it’s refreshing. Now, fans have a right to disagree about Rey being a Mary Sue and should make their points why. But keep it constructive, he’s a good guy!
The Gold Man it’s always good to have others that look at for you in any case. Allies are a good thing, don’t overlook them. For my ally is the Force and a powerful ally it is.
All parts have their timestamps here your welcome 1: What is a Mary Sue 1:45 2: The Force Awakens 9:00 3: The Last Jedi 1:04:06 4: The Rise of Skywalker 1:35:15 5: External Material 2:14:29 6: Conclusion 2:20:50
Still doesn't change the fact that Rey runied Anakin's sacrifice at the end of Episode 6 by defeating Palpatine at the of Episode 9,and my question is is how was Rey able operate/fix a ship that she has never even flied before ? How did Finn got his butt kicked by Kylo while Rey was able to stand her ground ? I don't care what anyone says Anakin is the chosen one not Rey.
@@thegoldman25 I do appreciate the time, craftsmanship,and effort you put in the video though.I would like to see more videos like this, and I do respect your opinion,sorry if you took my comment the wrong way.
The best way to explain Rey and Luke is this: Luke almost died and needed help from his friends every step of the way and DID NOT kill the Emperor on his own. Rey was a made up character given any ability created by the writer to be better than Luke. Everything he did required assistance. She needed none. Everyone knows the good guy is going to win so why make it boring. Steven Segal and Bruce Willis are both action stars but one gets hurt and makes you think he may die (Bruce) and the other (Steven) takes no damage and beats kicks everyone’s ass effortlessly. And Rey is Steven Segal. No one likes that hero. They tell no story. They’re boring because they’re never in danger. Arnold and Sylvester Stallone have more believability than Rey. That’s sad. Kid Anakin was too young to do what he did that’s why fans didn’t like him. He did too much. Like Rey. But his excuse was he was the Chosen One. Force dyad sucks and it was made up to cover lazy writing. Alice in the movie Resident Evil was written the same way and she ruined the franchise.
She needed help anytime she fought any force users in the sequel trilogy movies. When she first "beat" Kylo in TFA she had help from Chewy who shot Kylo, the earth splitting apart, and Finn. Then when she fought Luke she failed miserably until she force pulled the lightsaber, and forced Luke to listen to her (Luke definitely could've beaten her btw). Then she goes to Snoke, and she gets thrown around everywhere and basically gets toyed with until Kylo figures out how to kill Snoke. Then in the throne room fight, she beats the guards due to Kylos help. Then in Rise of Skywalker she gets a year of training. She fights Kylo on the death star and only "kills" him because Han's force ghost talked to Kylo. Then when she fights Palpatine almost gets killed until she got the help of all the Jedi ( the voices I heard were Kanan Ahsoka Luke Anakin Mace Obi Wan). You are wrong
@@spence8507 Give me a break..Oh that’s right Chewy shot him with a bow caster that shot another stormtrooper feet away and help from the janitor who never used a lightsaber also. The time she fought Luke who would’ve never actually trained her if she was displaying dark side tendencies like that. I doubt Yoda would’ve trained Luke if he attacked him. My favorite Snoke who got cut in half while stating he can read Kylie’ mind right? This is bad comedy. I think she won the throne scene fight more because of bad editing than anything else. Oh yeah and the scene where two lightsabers crossed stops a guy who just shot lighting and attacked a whole squadron right? Your reasons are about as bad as this movies writing. Luke wins!!!
About the Force calling her to the lightsaber... notice how this happens right after Finn leaves her, an act that reminds her a lot the day her parents left. Immediatly after, she hears her voice as a child, so... The Force is calling her because she needs to let go of them. Thats my interpretation.
An interesting theory. But I feel like this tends to permeate a lot of the defense for these movies. It seems like it needs a lot of workshopping beyond itself to make it consistent with itself.
I’ve never really felt one way or another about this topic because I’m biased towards the Sequels as they’re the first Star Wars movies I’ve seen in theaters (my parents thought the prequels would scare me). I haven’t yet finished the video but I really like the argument you’ve made so far and I like seeing people defend these movies.
I think people just use the term "Mary Sue" too lightly, and misunderstand what it actually means. The problem isn't that Rey has no flaws... Its that she never faces any consequences for her actions (like the fake out death with Chewy when she force lightning zaps the ship). She's a great character dragged down by a trilogy with no plan and a lot of flaws that could have easily been avoided.
@@Theagentofchaos-r5q cope. ROTJ was also good. Sorry you can’t admit the sequels have bad writing like the prequels, but at least the prequels didn’t destroy lore. It only had shitty acting. The sequels had shit acting along with a terrible incoherent storyline and bad characterizations
@@lapplandkun9273 now I thought the acting was great in the last Jedi and The force awakens everyone felt like they fit their role and I don’t pay much attention to the Star Wars lore
I agree with you on a lot of points. I would almost say that Rey is not a mary sue, but there are some things unexplained. 1) Luke, after being trained by Yoda, couldn’t lift up the x-wing. Rey, after leaving Luke, was able to lift multiple tons of rocks. Even Yoda struggled to save a support beam from hitting anakin and obi wan. Yet rey reached out one hand and did it with ease. 2) yes she may have had experience scavenging and what not, but when did she ever learn to pilot a large spacecraft such as the millenium falcon. Luke piloted an x wing but WAS UNABLE to pilot the falcon. Proof is in ANH in the cantina scene, Luke says price is outrageous and he could buy his own ship for that price ‘yeah, but whos gonna pilot it, you?’ ‘You bet I could’ yet they still go to Han and Luke doesnt even assist as copilot. I agree that Rey DOES have flaws. However, she is also more powerful than reasonable. I dont care that she can force heal. I care that there are no repurcussions for her. She is not even fatigued after force healing either time, yet Kylo dies from it? I want continuity. I think the reason I hate the sequels so much is a) continuity like mentioned, and b) missed potential, such as Finn. You have such a cool character who is obviously force sensitive, but throw him aside [insert ‘I dont wanna play with you anymore’ meme] I do think you did a great job articulating your points and they were very clear. Good job!
1. Kylo died from force healing because he had already had so much of the force taken out of him by Palpatine. It took all the strength he had to force heal Rey. 2. The reason Luke doesn't help pilot the Falcon is because Han definitely would not have let him, and why would he. He already he Chewbacca who was very experienced with the Falcon. The only reason he let Rey co-pilot is because Chewy was injured. I think Luke could have done a decent job piloting the falcon if he was given the chance, just like Rey did a DECENT job. She literally hit five things while taking off 3. I guess the only thing I can say about Rey being able to lift the rocks is: 1. She is a Palpatine. 2. All the Jedi live in her. Rey is just meant to be the most powerful Jedi ever because ALL the Jedi live in her (Yoda, Anakin, Luke). I honestly don't have a problem having her not need as much training as other Jedi since she is the most powerful of them all. Other than that I really appreciate this comment. It's really nice to just have a normal conversation about the Sequels without name-calling or bullying.
@@thegoldman25 And this is why people like you never learn. You don't even try to argue his points, you just say "thank you" and ignore that this comment was made in the first place.
I just finished the video... DUDE!!!!!!!!!!🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯✊✊✊✊✊👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 You succeed, gold man. The force will be with you, ALWAYS I want to point out a few things that are basically the same as I said in my previous comment: we don't need an explanation for Rey's powers. I like how you figured out it was all about the dyad, but even so, her fighting against the praetorian guards isn't THAT weird. Rey already knew how to fight, she trained herself a little bit with the lightsaber in ahch-to, and obviously the force enhanced her abilities. What we were shown is enough to understand why Rey could stand her ground against the guards. At the beginning of the fight, Rey and kylo were blocking the guards' rampage together, but then they got separated, and while kylo was fighting most of the guards himself, Rey was struggling against THREE. Just THREE. That alone shows us how experienced kylo is compared to rey. And obviously the fact that one guard alone stood her ground against her while kylo was fighting more at that same moment... well, already says a lot xd. So I don't think every skill Rey has needs to be explained by the force dyad. People just overreact about everything she does. But it's just them being toxic. Don't listen to them. On the other hand, you did good explaining why she could do force lightning, but again, the force dyad explanation was unnecessary. Training in the force doesn't imply that you become stronger or better. It's more about indoctrination on one of its sides. The jedi indoctrinate their students in the light, while the sith in the dark. As yoda points out, the dark side isn’t more powerful, it’s just easier, and that’s why it is easy to fall for it. That’s basically what happened to rey. She fell easily for her negative emotions and did force lightning by accident. And this isn’t even the first time we’ve seen this. Count dooku did force lightning for the first time when he was a jedi, by accident and before meeting sidious. So training is more about indoctrination and perfecting abilities more than to become stronger in those skills. Anyone can use the force without training as we’ve seen multiple time before the sequels. Just that, you don’t need to relate all of Rey's abilities to the force dyad. Apart from that… BEST VIDEO ABOUT THE SEQUEL TRILOGY I’VE EVER SEEN!!!! 🙌
I also think that Rey's lack of knowledge of how the force works coupled with her innate strength in it is what allows her pick up abilities quickly. A lot of the times strength in the Force is blocked by mentality/emotions. Since Rey doesn't have a good idea of what is considered an advanced ability or what would be "difficult", she is able to just do things. She knows the Force gives people incredible abilities but she's unburned by how the Jedi or the Sith perceive the difficulty of said abilities. She is embodying Yoda's advice to Luke "Do or do not. There is no try." One counterpoint I want to make about Luke is that he was able to contact Obi Wan's force ghost so he could've learned new things about the force from him and maybe even trained a little. That's just my thoughts on how he was able to progress as Jedi.
Star Wars fans definitely have a problem with abstract concepts, inferences, characters not telling the absolute truth 100% of the time, and putting themselves in characters shoes.
I love the fact that piratically all of the negative comments are from people who haven't watched the video or people who don't have any arguments. That pretty much tells you everything you need to know about the Rey haters.
@@gavinmyatt5589 Exactly. They go straight to insults. I honestly think some of them haven't even seen the films and want an excuse to hate 'strong women'
I'd go one step further and say a lot of the hate comes from bot accounts that were made by a really sad lonely guy. It might be a bit far fetched, but it helps me sleep at night to think there's not as many braindead idiots out there as the internet makes it seem.
I’m only 20 minutes in, but thank you so much for doing this. The originals are not perfect and the sequels are not garbage. Each film has value and people are too quick to shit on everything.
This is why I can't take the star wars fandom serious. They ignore prior feats of other films because of nostalgia and make up claims about the sequels. Ignore context as to why Ray "won" against Kylo in TFA, ignores context on how she "won" in the rise of skywalker, etc. And then circle jeark and downvote ur video to yell.
Or how they ignore how Thrawn comes out completely out of nowhere in Heir to the Empire and starts beating the shit of a lot of people strategically so much that it makes you wonder why the fuck Palpatine did not bring him in the battle of Endor, even if he is a xenophobic prick. (Nothing against Heir to the Empire, it's a good book.)
I find it funny how suddenly videos that defend the sequels are "invalid" based on video length according to the detractors, but if it's the opposing party, they totally matter if they're longer than the movies themselves. The absolute pinnacle of double standards.
This whole hubbub about Rey has just confused me because "Chosen Ones" and simple Force Prodigies have literally always been a thing. Even Sith have Chosen Ones (Bane, Darth Imperius/Nox). There's folks like Darth Zannah who shielded herself from a Thought Bomb as a *child* with no previous signs of Force affinity, while Sith and Jedi Masters all over the planet dropped like flies. But all of a sudden its a problem when Rey can lift some rocks and beat a horribly injured and conflicted dark side user who then goes on to beat her ass after she trains hard for a year? BS.
@@emperorholocron8278 Yeah I was admittedly a touch hesitant about adding them cause there's Starkiller too, who tends to start all sorts of debates, lol. Still, in game abilities aside and more to lore, that particular Sith is still able to murder/manipulate their way onto the Dark Council within 3 years, has a powerful bloodline and kills more experienced Sith quite above their paygrade with abilities that hadn't been seen in centuries. Or putting aside the games, there's Nomi Sunrider, who before being properly trained, pulled off a complex kind of mind trick (or battle meditation kind of thing?) to distract two beasts, a sort of skill said to be beyond even some Masters. Or kid Vitiate, who was Force-murdering at six and at ten was ripping apart villages and had hordes of followers already without a lick of formal training. Sometimes, people in the Star Wars verse are just born _powerful_ and it only takes a small nudge to get them going. Most beings have to work at it a bit, but it doesn't preclude the former folk from popping up now and again. They're the geniuses of the Force, in a way, and I wouldn't call a math prodigy a Mary Sue/Gary Stu because at 10 they could do post-grad math with seemingly little or no effort and most people can't. Apologies for the babble.
A lot of so-called SW commentators cough Mauler cough don't really know SW so its ignorant posturing. I mean Marka Ragnos is a ghost and insanely powerful - no says they broke the rules with him or he's a gstu. So its a lot of ignorant people using exaggerated rhetoric
I was pretty well convinced before watching your videos that Rey was a Mary Sue. Watching your content however has given me a new perspective. I think your points were well thought out and well stated. I'm actually looking forward to watching the sequel trilogy again. Thank you.
@@FairyKid64 well I’d like to consider his arguement about why Rey can beat kylo, where he shows that force diagram, the more you commit to one side of the force the more powerful you are. This just is not how the force works, otherwise how could mace windu have beaten PALPATINE if this was true ?how could he be a Jedi master, he uses both sides of the force but for good, he used his emotions. Jedi and SITH are just ways of teaching to use the force not the only way to become powerful in it. But consider what he says about kylo, he states that his injury and killing his father makes him conflicted and further towards the light ?but the complete opposite is true, SITH use pain to become stronger, snoke even says killing your father will complete ur training and commit to the dark side, if anything based on his own diagram kylo should be more powerful not weaker, and Rey commits to the force when she doesn’t know what it is in terms of using it?, remember zero traing in using the force.
@@FairyKid64 another point he states is that Rey letting the tentacle monster loose doesn’t end up better for Rey, because rey could have let chewy and solo out and they could have just walked off the ship, and the monster killing the pirates, is well he says “you don’t know that” but we do because we literally see it, it’s like he thinks that if Rey let them go the pirates would also just let them leave.
I ain't gonna lie, I never thought Rey was a Mary Sue. I watched this video to see what your talking points were as to why she's not a Mary Sue and there were plenty.
This video has over 3.5 thousand comments, yet after more than a year The Gold Man still replies to the majority of them is commendable to say the least. The fact that he is respectful and polite in replying to some of the most hateful comments is why this channel is my favourite Star Wars channel on RU-vid. To The Gold Man: Thank you so much for being a positive example of how to be not just a great SW fan, but a decent person in general! That's a rare find on the internet.
@Stripey Arse the FO would also have fleets else where... on top of that, the Supremacy. And on top that (though it never lasted much longer) it acted partially as a factory to manufacture more smaller Star Destroyers.
@@randomestchannel i estimate at the time just after TFA, ~60 star destroyers, 2-4 dreadnaughts and 1 Mega dreadnaught but it’s hart to be sure. After TLJ it’s much less because of the Holdo maneuver, probably about 40 star destroyers, 2-3 dreadnaughts and ~100 smaller cruisers and frigates
The dislikes show the toxicity in the Star Wars fandom. You're not insulting anyone, you're not calling anyone "sexist", you are just exposing solid arguments in a respectful and serious manner. So why the dislikes? I can bet most of those people didnt even watch 5 minutes of the video (yes, it's a long video, but with only a few minutes you can get what kind of video it is). Haters are so closed mind that they dont care about solid arguments, if the title disagrees with what they think they are just going to hate it before watching it.
@@dangerdash4393 If you read the comments, there're people who dislike the sequels but recognize how good the video is and admit that he's right in some points. Thats how a solid and healthy debate begins. If you dislike a video its usually because you think its a bad video. I understand disliking clickbait videos (like 90% of the Fandom Menace videos) or videos that insult people who think differently. He's not doing anything of that. So why the dislikes? Just because he has an statement different of what some fans want to believe despite he's presenting it in a respectful way with well searched arguments?
Yes The Gold Man put a great effort into making the video, its very well made and he is well spoken and respectful, and anybody can appreciate that, agree or disagree with him. The dislikes are because people just disagree, nothing wrong with that. The discourse in the comments from people who disagree are extremely civil for a RU-vid video, not to mention a Star Wars RU-vid video that can easily devolve into name calling and close mindedness. I have watched over an hour and the points i agree on, are things i never really questioned in the first place, like her defending herself on Jakku. When he got to points like Kylo v Rey or other instances Rey being a Mary Sue his arguments became assumptions that reinforce his point of view. To sum it up,its just is Confirmation Bias.
@@geckomoriadaimyoofwano7157 Everything you said is fair enough. You're also expressing your point of view in a respectful manner. That's fine. However I'm sure that like 80% (at least) of those dislikes are just people that read the title and already hated the video without seen it. Because I don't see someone watching the video and thinking "oh, that was a good video and you got good points. But I don't agree so you get a dislike". The dislikes on RU-vid are commonly use to express disapproval on a video you think is bad because of low quality or something you really hate (The Ghostbusters trailer, for example). If the video was a direct attack on the fans I would understand the dislikes, but its just a analysis done in a respectful manner.
I am an hour and three fourths in and I've been seeing some major issues with this video, let's start with the definition of Mary sue. The wikipedia definition is a weak one, it does not cover what makes a mary sue what it is but rather some of it's symptoms. What actually makes a mary sue is when logic bends around a character to fulfill some kind of task, such as making the character look good, simulating wish fulfillment, etc (Literature devil made a great video on this topic). These things absolutely apply to Rey, she learns force abilities through nonsensical means that contradict what we know from the star wars canon, she is trusted to go to Luke while having no history with the resistance, and she is able to use the force despite having no training (despite being the chosen one, Even Anakin still needed training to use the force). If you compare her uses of the force to lukes in the first movie of their trilogies she has multiple instances where she uses the force, while Luke only has one instance that supplemented his already great piloting skills (the movie says he was able to bullseye two meter womp-rats with his ship) after receiving training, while she had none. One of the more detrimental patterns to the videos argumentation is that having flaws disproves the existence of a sue, when in reality a mary sue can have flaws, but they won't suffer meaningful consequences from them. A common method of defending against the sue accusation was to give the character superficial flaws that don't affect the character (such as having a drug addiction but suffering no consequences from it), the same can be said of mistakes the character makes. Sure the six times Rey hit stuff while flying the falcon were mistakes, but they don't damage the ship in any way, the release of the rathtars was also framed as a mistake in the movie and the video, but it leads to the two other factions being eaten and the heroes escaping alive while if the rathtars weren't released they would have much more men with guns and they would be focused on the heroes instead of firing upon the other targets (you can bet there would be more instances of being shot if that were the case). Something that could have made your point much stronger was to do some research into what others are saying about mary sues or Rey, but surprisingly references to other content creators are absent in the video. Debunking points from Literature devil, Critical Drinker, Mauler, Thor Skywalker, etc. would have definitely improved the video. Although while I reference other content creators, did you really not look into other mary sue stuff on youtube? If you type in mary sue into the youtube search bar trope talks by OSP is the first thing that comes up, I feel like seeing that would have prevented several erroneous conclusions from being made in the video, or it would have made the beginning more interesting, you could point holes into their definiton of a mary sue and try to debunk it. Anyway, that was some of my thoughts on my first viewing, I'm sure EFAP will cover this in the next few weeks, I am looking forward to their response, I would hope you can come on to their show and talk, and I am looking forward to your response to them and to me, your editing is pretty decent, you have a nice enough voice to listen to, but I hope you could put a little more effort into research next time, you might come out a better content creator for it.
Just a question, why do the consequences need to be negative? She wasted her whole childhood waiting for her parents. That's one major consequence albeit to herself. I too was abandoned by one parent, so I can definitely empathise. She did release the Rathtars, and got a whole bunch of people killed. She made a mistake and got lucky. Why would she need to lose a limb or whatever. She helped lead the FO to Takodana and had Maz's castle demolished because they were looking for her. That's one negative consequence. Admittedly not directly because it was BB-8 that was noticed, not her. She did get bested by Kylo Ren, but he was interested in training her, not killing her. Plenty of failings and just pure luck. I'm not sure why you need to have other RU-vidrs opinions to justify your own, that's not how truth is sought. Plenty of people enjoy the ST, me included. Plently hate on the PT, although I love it. I don't get the point in shitting on Star Wars. It's detrimental to everyone and it gets nowhere.
@@grizzkarizz2960 Consequences don't always have to be negative, but when most or all of them aren't it becomes a problem, of course not everything doesn't need to cost life or limb, they just need to be appropriate to the situation. Sure she had her childhood wasted in a terrible place, but a large portion of that is when she would be a child and likely dependent on Plutt, and even then that isn't relevant to the story at all. What are you referring too when you say bested by Kylo? Do you mean when she was force pushed into a tree and Finn received a spinal injury that didn't affect him in TLJ? Or are you referring to the battle in TROS where Leia distracted her so she could get the stab in? I would appreciate clarification. Han was the one who brought them to Maz, so that doesn't apply to her. Justify my own opinion? These people created great videos on the sequel trilogy as a whole and are much better at getting across what is wrong with them compared to a random youtube commenter who was strained for time. It's fine that you enjoy the prequel and sequel trilogies but to ignore these massive writing issues doesn't do any good, when we can point out these issues we can improve upon them and make better movies.
@@jamesnoonan4243 Just because you have issues with the movies, doesn't mean the issues are there. The fact I can explain away most of your perceived issues should tell you something. Maybe I'm in tune with what the story teller is trying to say, I don't know. You've got to look at the whole picture, the three movies as a whole. Many people, myself included love these movies. That again, should tell you something. It's possible to love them. Now. Yes, Han was the one who took them to Takodana, but he wouldn't have gone there if he hadn't met Rey. They were after Rey and BB-8, not Han. If Rey had have sold BB-8 to Plutt, Takodana castle would still stand. Kylo Ren could have killed her on Takodana if she didn't have the map in her head. Kylo on Jakku showed that he had no qualms in killing innocent people, so I think Rey was just lucky or unluckly, depending on how you look at it. He easily knocked her out (which is what I meant by him besting her). On Starkiller Base, Snoke wanted her brought back to him, so Kylo was under direct orders not to kill her. That's why it wasn't a fair fight for Kylo. Imagine a girl is trying to punch you. You defend, even if you do attack, you're not going to do so to cause harm. You say her time on Jakku isn't relevent to the story, but I disagree. Her abandonment issues, her longing to belong are what motivate her during the trilogy. She finally finds that belonging in the Resistance and finally as a Skywalker with Luke and Leia (something I'm not 100% behind). As someone with a similar childhood, I can empathise. Try looking at things from a different angle. Rey is powerful. But she's also a Palpatine and part of a force diad. I think people were jumping the gun a bit after TFA and should have waited until the end of the trilogy to form their opinions. Her and Kylo sharing force abilities makes more sense now. Him force healing, her "inheriting" force abilities, albeit not proficient immediately, quickly, but not immediately. I'm pretty sure Sheeve had everything go his way until right at the end, barring the first Death Star explosion (which we can blame on Tarkin), but we don't call him a Gary Stu. He was just powerful and an evil genius. About MauLer and so on, I watched a couple of their videos. They are disingenuous and trying to profit off negativity. It will make them rich while not changing anything Lucasfilm or Disney does one iota. I honestly don't see the point of it. She's not a Mary Sue. The notion is idiotic. I doubt I'm going to change your mind, but negativity isn't going to get anyone anywhere. You might wonder why I engage in these conversations, I do so because I learn more about the movies the more I talk about them. If you refrain from ad hominems, I will continue to engage.
I really hope gold man sees and respond to your comment. Well put I agree if you argue for something you should debunk or argue but show the other side like you said it makes the argument stronger. So far he’s only responded from what I can see to people only positive and saying how right he is. Hope that doesn’t say anything
@@grizzkarizz2960 Potentially true, but you would have to point them out to me, which I find all of these (apart from the one I concede) to be fairly weak defenses. It's possible for anyone to love anything, it's only human. But that was never in question, I don't know what gave you the impression I was arguing that people can't love these movies. True, but I wouldn't consider that a failing on Rey's part. She showed kindness to a droid, which not everyone treats as human in universe, only to be brought into the search for the map for doing that. She had no reason shown at that time to know that the first order are looking for the droid. In Takodana attention was focused onto them by Maz, something out of her control and something she could do little about. Are they negative consequences? Sure, but if you take this into account it's made clear these aren't her failings or flaws causing this but previous events she had no reason to expect their negative effect. Ok, thank you for clarifying. The stasis ability Kylo uses on Takodana has nothing shown in the film that can nullify it's effect, of course there are many possible explanations like it only works on the weak willed, but that didn't make it into the film. So what was she supposed to do about it? In regards to the fight on starkiller the fight is actually fairly irrelevant considering Kylo has an ability that can stun people from a distance, but he forgot he had that, which would fall under logic bending around a character and fitting my mary sue definition. I suppose it is relevant then, this is pretty solid reasoning and I concede this point. About your childhood I am sorry to hear that. Anakin and Luke were referenced as strong in the force in their own movies, but still needed training to use the force, so the argument that Rey is strong with the force would imply that she is miles ahead of Anakin who was concieved by midiclorians, even then she is still breaking a consistent rule in the star wars universe that training grants access to force powers, which is part of my definition. The Palpatine family relation has similar issues. In regards to the dyad, it is mentioned only two times in the entire sequel trilogy, both times in TROS. It's rules and powers are only implied and don't mention anything relating to training faster than others. This explanation for Rey being able to go through training quicker than any other jedi would need to be in the film for it to be valid as a piece of evidence. Large plot points need to be directly confirmed, which is another issue I had with the video in regards to his section on engineering. On Sheeve being a gary stu, that doesn't apply at all, Sheeve is shown to be very old and experienced in politics, which is logical given his background as a politician. He is shown to be very manipulative and cunning, which are skills that politicians use often. Due to his age and experience it is logical he would know how to manipulate people, recognize who is the most gullible and susceptible to influence (Jar Jar and Anakin) and deal in secrecy. He does all of this without stretching or breaking universal rules and while he doesn't fail much, he is very experienced and likely had failed in his past which he learned from, and his failures do lasting damage to him, when he was shocked by his own force lightning he had to live with that for the rest of his life. Disingenuous and trying to profit off negativity? In regards to the point about profit and them not changing anything, that same logic can be turned to people like The Gold Man and others who like the sequel trilogy, there isn't much of a point in explaining why these films are good if they don't let Lucasfilm know what they are doing is good right? Of course I don't see it as an issue but you get my point. Secondly, change nothing? Many writing issues have been explored while the sequel trilogy has been dissected and analyzed, which can help many fledgling writers not make the same mistakes these films make, the contrivances, contradictions of universal rules, character assassinations, world building issues, etc. can all be learned from. I've grown a small interest in writing because of these videos and it's become one of my two main choices of a career going forward. I'm sure there are many others who have had a similar experience to me in this regard (a decent chunk of the videos mentioned have over a million views), so I strongly disagree there is no point to the videos.
Fans: The Sequels have no logic and Rey is a Mary Sue People who actually use their brains: *Able to see the logic and explains the logic in a coherent form to them* Fans: WhY aRe YoU dEfEnDiNg ThIs TrAsH?
Well alot of his arguments were subjective and made assumptioms that reinforced his point of view. Not objective, or based in fact, more of head cannon. In the end its all subjective we are all entitled to our views. Great video, perhaps logical in the way assumptions are made, but not logical in regards to using facts
This video is criminally underrated. I was one of those people who considered Rey a Mary Sue because I didn't like her at first and because almost everyone else seemed to not like her either. It wasn't until recently that I've finally started getting tired of all the incessant Sequel bashing. This video was like the nail in the coffin. Beautifully explained points. Not only do I have reason to never consider Rey a Mary Sue again, but I think I also have a lot more respect for the trilogy because of this video.
@@KafuKemeh yes she has character flaws mainly her self doubt, she thinks she is only worth something if she comes from someone important and thinks she needs other people to show her her way. She has to learn that she doesn’t. She also suffers defeats she gets captured by Kylo, fails to bring him to the light, fails to get Luke of his island, fails to rescue Chewie, fails to defeat Kylo fair and square on the Death Star ruins and i could go on
Interestingly, what a lot of people miss is that the trope namer was actually satire, and the bit about how characters like that should be avoided in any other context was kinda the point. It wasnt enough that its plot had unexpected points, she actually gets away with things that would be illegal both in the federation itself and in the us at the time, and other characters do illegal things to and for her. The original series had had many such characters, but most people miss that because they weren’t main characters.
I'm sorry but your defense for Rey flying the falcon is way too long. They literally spell it out to you when she says "I've flown some ships but never left the planet"
47:00 actually no, it's just one of the "Mary Sue moments", because the main villain of the film changes his goal, and instead of directly finding the map that is under his nose, he captured Rey, instead of kill her, like he did with the old man at the beginning of the movie, who also saw the map. How, please explain to me (no need, this is a rhetorical device), you can pull out a whole map from a person’s head, despite the fact that she saw it for several seconds, transfer it to a navigation computer with exact coordinates and so that it all turns out to be correct, I think this is 200% failed idea. Yes, at the beginning of the film, Rey is a likeable character, not that it coincides with the conditions in which she grew up, but this can be forgiven. But then it gets worse, the plot is bending under Rey, the characters grow dumber, weaker, show mercy unusual for them (Kylo), run to hug (Leia), although they see her for the first time, and even trust to such an extent that they entrust the mission, the solution of which was the main goal of first movie. Yeah, there's definitely no reason to consider her a Mary Sue.
This is actually one of the few things that makes sense based off real world knowledge. When a person looks at something their brain actually remembers it completely. It's been shown that sometimes people with seizures can repeat languages they don't think they know because they've heard it before. So kylo looking into her mind to see a map she's looked at before makes perfect sense
@@thegoldman25 ok, imagine he saw the map, what next? How to translate it into coordinates, translate it into a computer and so on? There are a lot of assumptions that do not look convincing. Also, there are still problems with this: why he did not take the droid, instead of this not a reliable method, when he was practically in his hands. And if this is such a reliable method, why not get the map out of Lor San Teka's head? As I wrote before, Kylo altered his goal for no reason and behaved in an totally unusual way only because of bending the plot by Rey's Mary Sueness.
@@alexanderkruglov5199 she could restore the faith in the Jedi which is what snoke is concerned of and she’s showing the show of a emotion which is dot dark side
@@alexanderkruglov5199 I wasn’t making that up it was more of an hypothesis and plus this wouldn’t matter much because Rey used an staff before so she has experience with close ranged weapons and kylo was shot with a Wookie cross bow
@@thegoldman25 I've tried and the one I wanted they said "the arguement is kinda invalid when you need a 2 hrs plus video to explain why she isn't a Sue. Imo anyway"
Although I still think Rey is a Mary Sue, your video was genuinely well done and gave me a new perspective. Thank you for the algorithm recommending me this!
It really bothers me how ppl always complain that it's ridiculous Rey can beat Kylo in a dual. No, she can't. The only time Rey won against Kylo was when he was shot in the stomach with a Wookie Bowcaster. Kylo literally beat Rey in The Rise of Skywalker, and the only reason Rey had the opportunity to stab him was bc Leia died, and it caught Kylo off guard. But right before that happened, Kylo clearly won the dual and was right about to kill her. Not only that, but hebwas strong enough to toy w her the entire time. Rey is not strong enough to defeat Kylo, and only won one time bc he was heavily wounded. He was wounded by the same weapon that sends stormtroopers flying backwards when they get shot w it. Sometimes, it feels like I've watched a completely different movie than the rest of youtube always complained about
At 1:51:30, I totally agree. I loved Rey from the beginning because of the way she treats droids. In the original trilogy and the prequels, most characters, even the good guys, treat droids as if they are, at best, pets. Rey treats droids as if they are people. The way she treats BB8 and asking C3PO the odds show this to be the case.
People can call Rey a Mary Sue, I just don't give a damn... I love her. She might not be as good as Leia or Ahsoka, but she is definitely a beautiful character who is tremendously likeable
If she isn't a Mary Sue then why is she so perfect at everything? She had no training, she beat the main villain multiple times, she never develops properly, and she earns everything without doing any work. Take it up with people like G+G, Mindless Ent., WCBs, etc.
@@techno639 well no luke didn’t train rey at all he only gave 2 lesson which doesn’t help her control the force or use a lightsaber and leia is confirmed to not be training her she only gave her advice
@@ATalesTruth- Luke taught her about what the Force truly means along with Jedi history. This is training, Leia is Rey's master so it's obvious she's training under her
Rey didn't save the day in the first film like Luke who managed to be on a mission without his abilities being tested and outrunning much more trained pilots. Poe was the best pilot of resistance and the one with the help of Finn and Han blew up the Starkiller base? Actually, instead of being a hero that saves the day and won a medal, Rey had to be rescued by Chewbacca at the end of TFA.
Ok, this is one of the biggest things I don't agree with. You shouldn't compare Rey with Luke nor Anakin. Anakin IS the chosen one. He IS a (very) flawed space Jesus. Would you say Jesus is a Mary Sue? They both endured so many and real difficult hardships in their life even though they were so powerful and gifted. Luke on the other hand was a whiny b*tch in the beginning. BUT he was relatable to so many people. A teenager who wanted something more in life. An adventure, a purpose, a destiny,...? He failed many times during the movies and had many bad qualities. With each movie, we saw him mature and advance in his abilities becoming the man who will bring back Anakin to the light and taking his part in bringing back the balance (I personally believe it was a group effort but ultimately Anakin fulfilled the prophecy.) You just can't compare Rey to them because she isn't like any of that.
You didn't explain why Rey doesn't have any of those qualities, though. You just said "you can't compare them"even though all three of them are force sensitive people from desert planets who are gifted pilots. Yeah, no comparison whatsoever there.
True the video does a shit job at saying she isn't but there so much evidence that she is able to life mountains of boulders, suddenly over power kylo a guy who has been trained but luke Skywalker himself to a girl who barely knew that the forced existed. Suddenly able to use force mind control with ease and the universe bending backwards to her and with no real character i mean we never actually saw anything change the writers just add "flaws" that would be resolved pretty easily not once i ever thought she was ever in danger
@@doubleyellows6742 yeah but that’s also simply because they aren’t trying to understand the points. Most videos on this topic that are about Rey is a Mary Sue ignore half of all the stuff that proves the opposite.
@@casperderop7676 Only the poorly done ones, the good ones reference the usual defences people make of Rey - and videos like this one actually invent criticisms that hardly anybody is actually making (e.g. Rey using her staff to beat the two goons, which is entirely reasonable) and then respond to them as if that adds to their case. I'd suggest you watch someone like MauLer, who actually knows character writing convention.
As someone that fully believed and was on board the Mary Rey train for all these years. I won't lie.... this video has completely changed my mind and I am excited to watch the trilogy in a different light now. Don't get me wrong I do enjoy the sequel trilogy, despite its flaws. Well made video, thanks for this.
Finally somebody who agrees the sequel Trilogy is overhated and not that bad. Rey is my fav character she's not a Mary sue as she does have the occasional moments when she struggles in the fights!
I usually do not comment, and do not even "Like" videos, I tend to be a passive user on the platform, and just "share" a content with the people I know if I think it's worth it enough. Well, this time I had to "Like and comment" not only because you're work is amazing, and this video is splendid, but also because the "Dislikes" are TOO MANY and it doesn't make any damn sense; I'm sure half of these people didn't even watch the video, and it drives me crazy, so i felt the need to compensate, even if with just one small like. Great content and thanks again for your analysis!
I think the whole Mary Sue argument would be undermined if Rey's actions had more long term consequences The great thing about the OT and PT is how people get their arms and stuff chopped off That's a significant consequence since it's permanent P.S. I never really liked Luke because of his rapid progression He is a good character though but a bit plain sometimes His best moments come from his struggle where he genuinely just loses his cool
Let’s see Anakin was a Pilot, Pod Racer, and Builder. Luke was a farmer who would protect his home and knew how to pilot and use a blaster. Neither started using the force before their training. Only what was in their skill set. Rey was a scavenger who could fight and the piloting skill is debatable so I’ll leave that to the side for later. But she uses more abilities outside her known skillset by the viewer. She uses force abilities she didn’t know and beats a trained Darkside force user when she never held a lightsaber. Anakin podraced and piloted a ship. Luke blasted storm troopers, piloted his X-Wing and used the force to make the shot after his training with Ben on how to let go and trust in the force instead of his eyes that’s why he closed his eyes. Rey never learned how to use the force mind trick, force push or pull. She never learned how to give into the force. She never learned how to lift rocks with the force, force lightning. How about TLJ Luke taught her about the failures of the Jedi and the basics of the force. When did she truly learn any of her Jedi skills then? By episode 9 we see she received training by Leia but we don’t see her struggle in fights against Kylo Ren, or Palpatine. Rey does not really go through many trials or losses in this trilogy compared to Anakin or Luke and don’t tell me she went through more then these too, her past was was nothing compared to what these two went through in all three films of both trilogies.
spacecase8888 I mean actually using the force. Anakin was force sensitive but he wasn’t using force abilities or techniques to get ahead. Their are certain gifts force sensitives are born with but without training they cannot truly access their actual potential.
spacecase8888 plus there were no other humans podracing, it was just him the rest were just betting on alien Podracer so if Anakin was willing to race in a deadly sport that no human besides him was brave enough to do then he was the only human that could do it.
The Gold Man I mean actually struggle it looked like she was holding her own until the end with Kylo overpowering her , and then Kylo felt Leia’s death and Rey swooped in for the kill. In episode 9 all their fights Kylo and Rey seem mostly evenly matched throughout them so when Kylo is about to beat Rey in that fight before getting distracted by Leia’s death feels like a slight shift to the left on a broken balancing scale. I will give you that it is true that Rey almost lost but watching the entire fight it still looks like their evenly matched, Kylo starts to get the edge on the fight, Rey gets on the defensive, Kylo strikes again before swooping for the final blow, he gets a feeling of Leia and then Rey throws the final strike. It doesn’t even feel like the opponents Rey faces are an actual threats for her compared to Vader and The Emperor for Luke.
This has to be one of the greatest videos about the sequels! Man I share a lot of your points, and I've been trying to explain this to others but they just don't want to hear a good argument I've just subscribed, great channel!!
I hit 20:12, Leia knowing how to use a blaster is simply explained by the fact that she’s in the Rebellion. I doubt Bail would let her aid the Rebels if she didn’t know how to defend herself. For Padme, you can come to the same conclusion, as the queen of Naboo, she would very likely have had SOME blaster training “just in case” and during the attack on the palace, the Trade Federation wanted her alive so she could sign a treaty, so the droids were likely told NOT to shoot the person they need alive. Also, at this point in the video, i don’t disagree with you when it comes to the skills that Rey possesses.
32:29 now, Rey’s piloting. I know the show don’t tell thing is important, but in ANH, I’m pretty sure that someone says that x-wings are very similar to t-16s and Luke says that he could bullseye womp rats in those. There is throwaway lines throughout ANH that hint toward the final trench run. Someone also mentions that Luke would fly his T-16 in Beggars Canyon, something that would probably be harder to pilot through than a straight trench. Anakin’s piloting skills are much harder to defend, but if we take into account your logic, Anakin piloting the Naboo fighter wouldn’t be much different than driving a car, and if those a similar then a podracer would be somewhere in between, right? It is stated, that Anakin has been podracing for at least a couple years, and would be familiar with at least two different control models: the one we see TPM, and another one that him and Watto mention when they talk to Qui-Gon in the shop. On the way to Coruscant, Anakin learns even more about space specific controls from the dude piloting the royal ship. So if that doesn’t explain how he somewhat knows the controls for the Naboo starfighter, which he clearly isn’t familiar with, the flight to the battle and for a while after was done on auto-pilot, not him flying. Him destroying the reactor was an accident, going into the control ship was more of a save than a thought out maneuver. He kinda just winged it from there. Rey on the other hand, pulls more than a couple good moves. The entire part where she is flying through the star destroyer would be very hard for anyone without experience in that specific model of ship. Don’t forget that the Millenium Falcon’s cockpit is on the right side of the ship, and not in the middle like most starships clearly are in this universe. She also says, in the scene that you’ve shown at least twice up to this point, that she doesn’t know how she flew the ship that good. I’d say, as someone who knows nothing about cars, that having driven a car a dozen times, does not give you the experience needed to drift through alleyways in a muscle car. That is the equivalent of what Rey does in the star destroyers. Yes she knew the layout, but it doesn’t explain how she managed to pilot the large and awkward Millenium Falcon through it. Something that you also didn’t mention up to this point(sorry again if you mention it later), is that the movie doesn’t even “infer” how she knows so much about the Falcon. Yes she worked for Unkar Plutt, but why would he tell her about where he got the ship, what modifications he was making to it or even shown her the ship. He clearly doesn’t give her special treatment: “ One quarter portion”, and she definitely isn’t one of his enforcers so I don’t know how she would know so much about the ship and not even know that it was THE Millennium Falcon.
The sequel trilogy is in my opinion the perfect example of why a sequel needs the same director you can’t just switch them out and expect the story to go the same way
@@thegoldman25 I respect that. As to be honest I really like her on 7, maybe I think knowing about her being Palpatine's granddaughter was just rushed... But Daisy Ridley was very good as Adam driver for Kylo and Jhon for Finn.
@@Crusty783 the second game is terrible and the whole clone thing is bad, I would only consider the first 1 even close to cannon, the second one is just as badly written as the sequels and rey
I need to address two disagreements I have in this very well made analysis: 1. In current internet culture, “Mary Sue” no longer refers to the 1970s Star Trek fan fiction the term comes from, so comparisons to that example are kind of irrelevant. Hollywood writing Can be held to a higher standard than fan fiction. 2. “A Mary Sue wouldn’t do this or that etc” isn’t always a credible criticism since Mary Sues are often found in bad writing, which often has plot holes and logic issues.
Also a few points are poorely represented. 1. We learn from Lukes conversation with his uncle thst he trained with his friends to join the academy to become s battle pilot. Wich fly x wings. So we get a direct connection how he can fly ships similsr to an x wing, shoot with a rifle and Blaster and has mechanical skills taught by his Uncle to maintain their modern spsce farm and droids. But holding his first lightsaber he gets zapped by the training droid toddler younglings use. Because he never used one before. And even after training everyday and with Yoda, Vader still beats him with no issue and no use of the force. Now anyone who says Rey being able to use a Qzarterstaff, and defend herself is bad is obviously dumb. Spear or Staff is the eadiest weapontype to learn in a basic self drfense manner. Her knowing parts and maybe even basic ship mechanics are aldo possible given her Job. Knowing the falcon better then its owner, and knowing how to fly when she never left the planet are not. 2. Her outdoing Kylo in the force, then knowing how to do a skill such as a force mind trick without any training right after is not. Her outdueling Kylo who seconds ago showed he is focused enough to use the force. Besides a lightsaber being described since forever to be to dangerous to use as a non force sensitive individual with training is another plotthole. Mando showed it well hoe Din cut himself. And if it was so easy to use anyone would. As its booth force awareness, and actual swordskill you need to practice over and over. You dont put a bo staff master against a Kendo master. Booth with swords and see the Bo master win and have the same skill at a weapon they are not proficient with. If they gave her a double bladed Staff sabre like Maul? That would fix this. A mary sue element in the fight was also Kylo forgetting to use his force abilities. As if you want to make the argument that his injury limited his physical peformance whst stops him to knock Rey into a few more trees? Pick her up when knocked out? He did it a few moments ago, meaning you cannot make the excuse that he wasnt able to. Its the universe bending to the characters conbinience.
of course, when I say that, I generalize. and I'm not talking about you disagreeing with the idea of the video, you have the right and therefore are not haters. I'm talking about those who put a red thumb without even looking at it in full. so once again I am not targeting anyone specific, you have the right to find that rey a mary sue, and it is good that our opinions differ. I wish you a happy new year and may the force be with you ^^ (Sorry if my english i's bad, I'm French ^^)
@@tam2237 I will quote another comment : "Nor Anakin or Luke are mary sues and here's why. Let's start with Anakin. Now the supposed Mary sue arguments from Rey fan boys is hear the most is him winning the pod race and destroying the droid control ship. First of he's has competed in Pod racing before as it's mentioned in the movie and therefor its safe to assume that he's been practicing so he knows how to drive one. Secondly he barely knew what he was doing during the Naboo space battle. His ship was on autopilot and once he got the ship under control he couldn't even steer and flew right into the thing and shot randomly which caused it to blew up. While it's a dumb moment, it's not a mary sue moment nor does that make Anakin a Mary sue. IF ANAKIN WAS A MARY SUE HE WOULDN'T EVEN HAVE TURNED TO THE DARK SIDE ffs. A characters supposed skill level is not all of it when it comes to Mary sues. Anakin's flaws is what lead him to the dark side. Now let's talk about Luke then. The common argument i hear there is that he blew up the death star with supposdly no piloting training. This is false and you would have known if you paid any attention to the movie. Luke has flying experience and the film mentions it quite a lot. In one particular moments we know that Luke had a T-16 ship which he flew back home. T-16 and X-Wings are both manufactured by the same company therefore they are very similar to fly. On top of that he almost failed at his mission if it weren't for Han to intervine the last second. If you still think Luke is a mary sue then how does it come that in the next movie that he gets attacked by Wampa and needed to be saved. Then he went to Dagobath and struggles with training. On top of that later on he disregards both Obi wan and Yoda and goes to face Vader and save his friends which caused him to lose his hand and almost die. Mary sues are always right and it's the characters who question them who is wrong but here it's the complete opposite and Luke have to deal with the consequence of his actions" .
Anakin wanted to free slaves but that’s completely forgotten about Why did he stay with the Jedi between episode 1 and 2 Stop hating on the sequels when they have similar and less worse problems than the prequels Let me guess, you hate on the force heal in episode 9 but simped for it in the Mandalorian
Man, these dislikers are pretty much Rey haters and Sequel Trilogy haters who put ammount of dislikes to this thoughtful video that haven't watched the entire video explaining why Rey is not a Mary Sue and needs to understand about the character.
Yeah it always comes down to an issue of definitions. There's just a fundamental gap in the way people understand the terms Mary Sue and Gary Stu. With your first point, you state that Superman is not a Gary Stu because his powers are explained and make sense in the universe. Many sources, most notably TV Tropes, account for the fact that their powers are explained in-universe, but that is not an excuse for their overpowered status, especially if it gives them the agency to be the center of all of the plot and conflict. With your second point, you specify that Mary Sue's do not have flaws, which is just as often accounted for. The problem is not that they are flawless, the problem is that such flaws are typically superficial and don't cost the character anything beyond being sad for a while. Your final point in the opening is also ultimately undermined by your definition as well, since your definition excludes many characters that the term is applied to, male or female. Generally accepted Gary Stu characters are numerous in pop culture, Superman, Harry Potter, and James Bond are a couple of the bigger examples. That and the anecdotal statement doesn't help establish your credibility and immediately exposes bias. Unfortunately I think most of your target audience will be likely to stop watching your video after the introduction is complete, as your definition doesn't address their concerns with the trope and therefore any arguments you make will be ultimately flawed in their perspective. While I agree that Wikipedia isn't a "bad source," it probably would have benefitted you to use additional sources for a more all-encompassing definition to argue against.
So my best faith response to your statement is to assume that when you read "Generally accepted Gary Stu's," you interpreted that as "approved Gary Stu's." That is not what I said nor intended to imply. My statement could be reworded to "Characters generally considered to be..." I didn't mean to express an opinion that Gary Stu's are acceptable and, even then, I at no point express an opinion on Mary Sue's.
Rey flies extremely well and then says she's never flown before. Contradiction. Luke contradicts a rebel pilot and says that hitting the exhaust port of the Death Star is possible because he has done something similar many times. And then he does it himself. It's explained, not contradicted.
Did she I don't think Rey left Jakku until meeting Finn. As for Luke he mentioned he was a pilot and that's all he was good at in A New Hope.He didn't master his Jedi powers until the Return Of The Jedi. Rey on the other hand flies the Falcon, uses mind control, beats Kylo and this is done in the first movie. She learned nothing from anyone she just had all that power bottled up. It also made Kylo a really weak antagonist. As for flaws Luke was impetuous and sense of adventure and Anakin was easily swayed by power. Rey's weakness is what missing her family? It's not even remotely interesting
Oh, so she knows MF better than Han piloting it for 47 ears as he flied some ships few times, never in space. BS bigger than scene where she's "bypassing the compressor by ripping random circuit board off". People who made Ep. VII-IX just didn't care about own movie. Neither characters nor searching/asking about stuff to make actually realistic scenes. She's not Mary Sue because what she's doing, her bs fencing, bs engineering etc. is so hilarious that I actually believe Ep. VII-IX are non-canon dreams of Rey who is in alternative mind state for years. Yeah, those stuff works, because she believes it should work so her mind creates visions of it working.
There is no reason to believe that she's not capable of flying a ship. A large part of her time is spent scavenging wreckage, and probably even doing minor, in-atmosphere jobs transporting scrap from one place to another. This is not an issue. ... What *is* an issue is the expert level of skill she shows flying a medium-sized transport through a wreckage obstacle course, in a ship that she has never flown before (remember, she stated the ship hadn't even flown in years), that works at peak efficiency only when there's a co-pilot (she has none), against combat pilots who are actively trying to kill her- and not only surviving the encounter, but having a direct hand in taking out at least one of them in an impressive-looking maneuver that would be unlikely to be pulled off by someone who has only just gotten it is pilot's seat. There is no reason to believe that she would have cultivated that level of skill for any reason. Yes, I'm aware that the explanation is that she had access to a flight simulator; no, that is not a sufficient explanation, partly because simulated experience does not necessarily translate to practical execution of that skill, and mostly because the explanation is absent in the film- failing to explain this or demonstrate it to the viewers still constitutes as poor writing.
@@Petaurista13 did you watch the fucking video? she doesn't know *better,* she can't fly the Falcon for shit and she knew exactly what Unkarr did to the ship and how to deal with it
@@KalibreSteelblast the first time I watched the movie, I immediately chalked up the falcon stunt to Force precognition and I don't see why that wouldn't be the case
Thank you for saying she’s not a Mary sue I always thought Rey was not a Mary sue and I think people calling her a Mary sue is annoying and makes me sick 🤢 I think Rey is a great character and I would dare say the Rey and Kylo dynamic is better than the Han and Leia dynamic don’t get me wrong I think the Han and Leia dynamic is good but Rey and Kylo dynamic is incredible throughout all 3 movies and I love the whole sequel trilogy and yes I love all 3 of them
@@bjrnthebootybanditIf you think that Rey is the queen of Mary Sue then you have the luck to not know any mediocre story with a black hole protagonist. Or you like when a character is a Mary Sue if you can use said character as a self insert. Or you don't know what is a Mary Sue
4:47 Force healing isn't new, it's new to Disney canon but not to star wars. starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Force_healing/Legends its just that in legends. Also you said at 4:37 'you can save yourself from dying by using the dark side' wouldn't that be a form of force healing? 7:19 So you're using this example to show why Mary sues are bad characters by comparing Iron Man 1 and Captain Marvel, but you say you don't think Captain Marvel is a Mary sue? 8:35 basically every Isekai protagonist, and Han Solo from the solo movie, Anakin Skywalker (TPM).12:11 that doesn't explain how she knows how to fly a starship. If you teach someone how a car works, it doesn't mean they can drive it, they need to practice and actually drive a car. 17:47 Who's saying it isn’t ridiculous for Han to understand wookie in Solo? 18:03 I wouldn’t say that's the best argument, the big point everyone makes is that she can use the force with no training. 18:13 like who? Don’t just say some people cite your claims. 18:29 really? What about young Anakin Skywalker? 18:59 He flew a ship before, and he flew the T-51 skyhopper, similar to the T-65 in controls. 19:23 Kylo is trained in how to fight with a lightsaber, Rey isn’t, fighting with a lightsaber is different to fighting with a stick. 19:49 she's a princess and also a member of the Rebellion, I think she would need to know hot to defend herself. 20:37 Why did you use her as an example as someone who wasn’t criticized for having a skill that she shouldn't have? Why are you invalidating your points? 20:46 she knows how to defend herself against other scavengers on Jakku. But what about Kylo Ren? She's using a weapon she's never used before, and fighting someone with years of training under his belt. 21:31 She can beat up two thugs, so that means she can take on a trained soldier? 22:19 So it would make sense that the First order would send out tie fighters to kill their own spy, because the empires tried to destroy the Falcon before? 22:34 that doesn't mean she knows that part is valuable, all she's saying is that it went down in price, if I went to a garage sale or something of that nature, there was a watch that 15$, then the next week I went there it was 6$ and I ask the owner or seller why it went down, that doesn't mean I know the watch is valuable or is being overpriced or underpriced. I’m going to end this here because I have classes and such, sorry for this being so long. I just want to say that I don’t think your dumb or anything, I just felt your reasoning didn’t make very much sense but you seem like a cool person.
4:37 'you can save yourself from dying by using the dark side' wouldn't that be a form of force healing? Technically no - and I don't like this story BUT Darth Maul recovers tapping into darkside abilities but he goes crazy.
I mean there’s a lot of ways to save yourself from dying using the Darkside transferring your soul or doing what Darth Maul Did Basically get so pissed off you refuse to die
As for Rey and the Falcon,... She says it hasn't flown in years, yet it starts right up? The only way that is going to happen is if someone has been maintaining it all these years. Given that she works for the dude who is in possession of it (and she knows not only how to fix it, but also how to start it) its not that far of a stretch to assume that she was the one in charge of keeping up the ship (running the engine every so often, changing the oil, etc,...) all those years. Nine year old Annie on the other hand? Seriously,...ridiculously young age aside, no one is going to teach a slave how to pilot a ship,...no one!
Yeah, teaching a slave how to fly a spacecraft is a surefire way for him to escape. I know there's an explosive device in every slave and they can just blow them up, but surely there are technologies they can use to find and disarm something like that. One would think you'd create as many ways as possible to keep a slave under control, and ensuring that they don't know how to fly is a basic one.
@@phoenixgray9231 In which fight? With Kylo in TFA, he had just been shot in the chest with Chewie's bowcaster, but in my opinion TROS is kind of just a mess so with that one yeah, nothing really makes sense in that movie to me.
@@bamaboyz8978 She knew about the Falcon because she worked on it all the time and even then she didn’t do it well. Wait a minute did you even watch the video?
In the context of that double standard you (correctly) mentioned: In 46:23 you show Luke firing with a Stormtroopers blaster (i can't remember the model right now) and he is firing it fairly accurately. Luke knew how to use another one on his planet, a larger and more precise rifle, a different model. He didn't have the expeerience nor the knowledge on how to use this type at the same level of professional stormtroopers trained to fight with this. It's like you are a hunter, trained and experience to fire with a hunting rifle and suddenly someone gives you a semi-automatic rifle and tells you to fire at the same speed and precision as a professional soldier trained to fight with that semi-automatic rifle. If it was Rey this nitpick would make her a Mary Sue. Since it is Luke, we don't care really (if we take every seen and microanalyze it we will find nitpicks like that more or less everywhere, it's Star Wars, but who really cares?)
A masterful character analysis, worthy of recognition in the Archives of the Jedi Order. Yoda tells Luke that what he takes with him is what's in the in the cave. Qui-Gon says your focus determines your reality. I love Star Wars and I love Rey Skywalker. This analysis has strengthened my love for the Sequel Trilogy, which I already loved. Thank you. May the Force be with you.
2:25:24 “If this video means the world to one person who loves Rey but is so disappointed by the way she’s been hated upon by this fandom” Please count me as that person! Thank you for expressing those feelings so well and the courage to post them on the internet. Your positiveness is clear and appreciated. The heartfelt thoughts about listening to and respecting others' opinions is so needed at this time. This is an amazing video! A couple questions. An estimate of how many hours this took to make? Did you have any hesitation, self doubt or ever consider not posting it?
I’m so glad to hear this! I’m glad you love this character just as much as I do! To answer your second question, I had 0 hesitation. No amount of hate can stop me. In terms of how long this took, probably a month or so. Idk how many hours exactly, I’m glad you asked!
@@something7641 I also agree with that, what one thinks doesn’t determine something to be good or bad but the objective factors, in which those factors point rey to being both a bad character and a Mary Sue
well, this is completely wrong out side the definition of the term. "reys flaw is her attachment to here parents" (and this is some who a greater flaw then anakins or lukes flaws) this is patently not true, Her "flaw" bearly causes her any issues in any of the films. In awakens it just slows her journey down a tiny bit. IN last jedi i moves the plot forward a bit and arguably gets (as a far a we were concerened) the big bad killed and replaced with an incompetent. And it's resolved in the final film. "her skills make sense at the start of awakens" you can argue engineering slightly, but It would have made to far more valuable then the others the junker had working for him. This is on top of there being no reasonable way for her to have learned to fly a ship. while you rambled on about "logical inference" you skipped over how the junker treats her in the film, like she is worthless. With all her skills that she has at the start is is completely illogical for him to have not had better jobs for her, from her being a thug of a pilot af a scrap hauler, her clearly has better uses for her. A good example of this is Watto and anakin, wato knew his mother was worthless then he was and nearly refused to bet him. 27:00 did you just compare being able to drive one car to a charecter know how to fly despite there being 0 reasons for he to even have flown before. Again if the junker did teacher, why does he treat her like thrash. if some one else taught her, who, when, and why? she clearly couldn't pay for lessons considering her predicament. 27:44 (proceeds to out fly trained pilots) "in what what why is anakin destroying the blockade ship any better then what rey did" 1) he didn't fly most of the way there, it litteraly says he was flown by auto pilot 2) as you said, he won by accident 3) he have reasons to believe he had in fact trained how to race properly (considering we know he crashed his owners last podracer) rey doesn't even have a logical excuse for her to know how to fly. "the jedis god like reflexs" again this is still on top of the absurdity of her some how knowing how to fly. The god like refelxes are not perfect and people How ever her fighting skill only makes sense for her first fight and the fights with the troopers, not with kylo. 1) he still can use the force 2) the injury bearly come up in the fight and this is after he chased them down with it. so no, it doesn't make any sense for a trained and supposedly competent fighter and user of the force to just lose to a rando from a no where planet (this gets worse when she takes out a group of the first order elite guards bearly a few days later) 41:28 it's funny how far you had to reach here. 1) no muzzle control and lining up your proper eye with the sights are not obvious things (even for seasoned users) 2) it doesn't even hamper her for a minute, 44:16 yeah, that has to be the lamest attempt to claim she is not a marry sue i have seen, it's not that grand of a flaw and resolves it self with little effort on her part, also "lol she got captured" yeah lets not go into detail what happens next, IE she over powers kylo ren's mind probe, reads his thoughts and download his force skills. It's strange how you 0ed in on 49:00 The dyad is just a recon excuse to try to make sense of that scene, and still makes no sense in cannon, at least they introduced the prophecy of the chosen one when they introduced anakin. OH and "she knew about the jedi and there force powers" is the single worst excuse for the scene 52:00 the culmination of serveral years worth of time and training compared to a light afternoon nap. yeah totaly the same thing 1:02:00 the bowcaster wound hurt him so much he was still able to run and catch up and fight them. Hell he could still use the force. yeah sounds so bad. the emotional term-oil is some how a worse excuse. lets imagen you just betrayed a bunch of your friends and killed kids to save your wife and child, get all your limbers hacked off by your own master and get told you killed both your wife and child. Wouldn't you be conflicted in your choices, because when that exact event happened, and what would you know it still resulted in anakin being able to use the force. 15:00 your point about her being trusting self invalidates, the worse thing that happens because of this is her being disappointed in the people around her. Hell her trusting kylo was a) proven to be right b)got the big bad killed off, and left a void so massive they have to phone in a EU plot to try to have some threat for her to face in the second one 1:19:37 um no, her getting fluster does not invalidate all the other things that make her a mary sue. 1:20:50 say it's her greatest weakness is not the same a showing, the worse thing that come from this is again, her being sad she was wrong about him (for one film) and the large powerful villain being killed. "she failed" not really, snoke is dead and a luke does swoop in and save the resistance. Her not getting kylo to her side, is honestly not that much of a failure. 1:36:00 "muh non existent double standards" Luke had already shown he had trained vs. rey you just got a bunch of power ups for no real reason then the plot demanded it, then made an excuse later due to criticism of the film. The only reason they bothered with saying she trained is it was a criticism of the the prior to films, and considering that is where most of her "growth" was. Practically every thing in that film was a desperate attempt to try to fix the flaws of the 2 prior films.
Yep, she somehow knows how to swing a lightsaber and use the force immediately after she sees it. Luke couldn't do it until very late while Anakin had to under go years of training before he could properly use it.
While I disagree with your argumentation, you’ve taken an arduous labor upon yourself putting this video together, and for the most part I must say that from a technical standpoint alone you are to be commended.
what's there to disagree with the argumentation? 1. Rey fails to do *everything* in TLJ and her most impressive feat in the entire movie is moving a few rocks to open an exit. 2. which alone completely dismantles the *entire* mary sue argument. 3. Even if you believe that she's a mary sue in other movies (she isn't), it doesn't matter because throughout the overarching story she failed *AT LEAST* once (more than once actually), which again - dismantles the *entire* mary sue argument.
Rey could have learned to speak Wookie from books. It's not like she has anything else to do. Practically every Star Wars characters knows how to understand many different languages.
Needing two and a half hours of mental gymnastics to argue against something that can be explained in 10 minutes just helps to strengthen the original argument.
I always defended Rey against the Mary Sue accusations in 2015-16 simply because she got easily captured by Kylo in TFA. The only thing that never sat well with me is the way they marketed Rey as a possible Skywalker. TFA Trailer #2 starts with Luke, “My father has it, I have it, my sister has it. You have that power too....”. That was a clear misrepresentation of Rey from dialogue that would never exist in the movie.
LokiTetch yay but look at film most of the time the film makes you think Rey can do all this stuff out of nowhere but if you really look at the film you can see the reality say something different
Yes, she got captured, and then she stood her ground against kylo, who is a trained force user vs. Rey who left her home planet 22 hours ago and knew nothing about the force. After that she frees herself via mind trick (same thing with the force) And gets away and beats kylo in a fight. Kylo was trained by the most powerful jedi in the universe (Luke) and a very strong entity snoke. Who trained him to kinda do the same job as darth maul. Rey who never turned on a lightsaber in her life.
I think you make some good points in the video. But I think there is at least one correction that could be made. I think it's more accurate to say that Rey has a mechanical background than an engineering background. Rey understands what the different parts of the ship do and how they work together, but she isn't the engineer who designed the original parts and systems.
The problem is from what we are shown she is a scrap collector. A scavenger knows what part is what, and what it's worth. We never see Rey repair or build a ship, droid or anything. Then they depict her magicly knowing a very much one of a kind ship with the falcon. Thats also custom modified. Meaning even an expirienced Ship mechanic would take a good bit figufing out where what is, and what mods been added. As onr needs to remember Star wars ships are significantly bigger, more complex and not following the same standartized design as our cars or even Airplanes do. And not only does Rey imididtly know where to look, and has mechanical skills besides us never seeing her actually do this kind of work. She can fly it better then it's year long owner with tons of smuggling expirience. Meaning very skillfull risky routes to avoid authorities, even wild chases if caught and escaping with the wares intact. Earning him the Title of the best smuggler. They could have easily fixed this by depicting Rey working on a small ship, and a passing sentence of a side character like "Are yoh flying again?" With Luke they were ver, small establishing early on he maintains the droids for his uncle, and trained for years in shooting and flying to join the academy as fighter pilot. Later we learn he is the best among his friends wich makes the Deathstar shot belivable. For Rey they skipped this storytelling device wich makes all this skills pop up randomly without any realustic conclusion the audience can make. You just have to accept that she just did that.
@@TrafalgarWaterDLaw-dl5cm Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. At the same time though, force sensitive people in Star Wars have always had miraculous powers, so is isn't too hard to imagine that the force gave Rey special flying powers or even just really quick instincts - like how it gave exceptionally fast reflexes to 10 year old Anakin where he too beat other much more experienced pilots. And in the case of Anakin, the other alien races even had a biological advantage over Anakin since non-force sensitive humans are said to have much worse reflexes. So it isn't too much of a stretch of the imagination that Rey would fly as good as Han Solo or even better since Han is just a regular human with regular human reflexes. I know Han is a beloved character from the original trilogy, but he definitely is not force sensitive, which is generally a major disadvantage for people in the Star Wars universe. As far as the mechanic thing, what if Rey installed the Millennium Falcon modification herself? Or was at least present when her slave owner installed it? Han didn't know about it because he hasn't been there when the mod was added. Rey was, so again, it makes sense she would know where the mod was. It's like if someone stole your car 20 years ago, added a small new component the size of a dime to the bottom of the engine, and it makes your car run bad. You get your car back finally, and you notice it runs bad on the freeway. You can figure out what's going wrong, but it will take hours to diagnose everything to find that one tiny modification. But if the person who installed it or at least knew of it told you about it, well, things would move a lot quicker. It's not that Rey is a better mechanic than Han, she just happened to know where to look. 👀
So i just watched this... Wow.... I grew up with the release of the prequels and spent my childhood watching every SW movie back to back every week for literally years, read the movie novels, and so much more: point being, I know Star Wars VERY well. I personally love all of the sequel movies, TLJ actually being my all time favorite SW movie! Ive argued and talked to sooooooooo many sequel haters about so many different things and I really never understood why some people think Rey is a Mary Sue. ive heard all their arguments and reasons, but they always struck me as simply just them either misunderstanding the sequels, or not paying attention. This video PERFECTLY sums up the things ive been saying for years! Awesome video man! Its sad half the people watching this video are haters who, im willing to bet, either didnt even watch any of this video, or are in complete denial based off their own nostalgia and biases. I can understand why some people dont like the sequels, thats totally fine. But as I always say, there is a difference between disliking something and HATING something, and all the haters are very irrational and unreasonable. Edit: You brought up a lot of things I didnt catch that make me appreciate the sequels even more! Awesome job! Its nice seeing people like you on the internet who arent just fat neck beard nerds throwing temper tantrums over some space fantasy movie they didnt like due to their own nostalgia bias and double standards. There needs to be more people like you.
Love the Vid. Regarding Rey reading Kylo's mind I always just saw it as the writers using the Force the way it was used in the original - a plot device. It was a way to establish a connection between hero and villain and allowed them to learn about each other. Kylo learns about Rey's loneliness and Rey learns about Kylo's insecurities. That used to be how the Force worked, it served the narrative the narrative didn't serve it. I can buy that Kylo Ren, shaken up about possibly facing his father again (he knows his father is in the picture) would be so insecure that Rey would feel it.
Also I should mention you shouldn't call people idiots on the Skywalker topic. Like its fine if they dont agree with you, but you dont need to call them names because of it.
@@thegoldman25 Then their just using the wrong term. It doesn't make them idiots, it just makes them naive to the term. If someone said the wrong word I wouldn't call them an idiot for it, it'd be more constructive to just correct or explain why its the wrong choice of words.
i have to disagree with your claim that Captain Marvel doesnt have flaws since the whole movie was about her overcoming her lack of self-confidence. most people seem to think that "character flaw" means something big and overt (like Tony's drinking problem in the comics, or his desire for control in the movies) but subtle ones do exist and can be easily overlooked
What?! I don't know what movie you watched, but in Captain Marvel, Carol never shows any insecurities in regards to her self confidence, the time it comes up is when she finds out the Kree lied which is solved in seconds.
Leia is the leader of a rebellion we are told this multiple times before she ever shoots a blaster so it comes off very organic. However Rey lives on a planet of thugs so it makes sense that she can defend herself doesn't actually connect. She has no weapons of her own or has the stature of someone who excels at hand to hand so if anything her skills would be more like Aladdin's where she escapes conflicts. Rather they do the opposite and it's literally explained the Finn comes from a line of stormtroopers that train from birth but then Rey beats him without a sweat. So they actively do the opposite of good story telling and immediately undermine what setup they did create with something they did 0 set up for. And how are we fine with an unarmed Finn losing and actively trying to run away but just conclude that Rey just learned to be a total badass fighter? The you can't logically infer she has an engineering background because we already have another Star Wars Character who has a piloting background and is also a scrapper and he never just randomly fixed ships he barely knew anything about and he was on a much more industrial scale of a scrapper so just showing they can just do certain high level skills after showing us they are some poor worker on a backwater planet is not good logical conclusions. With Cal his background was to show how adaptable he was and so they gave him a background where he'd be able to make an absolutely sick custom lightsaber and use multiple stances because it was just more efficient. But with Rey it's not a common repeating theme we see with her character other than she's just better at nearly everything than anybody else with experience. We know Luke is a pilot because he has been trying to get into the academy but he's not a better pilot than Han or Ben, and that's really his only main skill in the beginning. He's not a great pilot even by the end of the first movie. He was about to get taken out and Han saves him. Where as Rey smokes Kilo and that's where the Mary Sue comparisons really begin. They steal the same story we go fmdecades ago and make a character that's better at everything than anyone she keeps meeting. And the connections aren't nearly as organic. We go from heavily inferring to jumping to her scrambling to get off the planet and join the resistance in a matter of seconds. Where as for Luke we see multiple stages of his interests getting peaked from the moment he lays eyes on hologram Leia, he then gets saved by Ben and doesn't just randomly becomes a great fighter out of no where. If you were to breakdown how long either character saves anyone within the first half of both of their first films Rey saves BB-8, she saves Finn, and she saves Han and Chewie all before they'veeven left Jakku. But Luke is more of a hinderance for most of the episode 4 until the very very end when he finally uses the force for the first time. They escape the Death star because the Clone troopers are ordered to. He hits a control panel from a considerable distance because he has spent some time shooting womp rats but outside of that he only shows a basic level of skills not a complete mastery of all of them and no one is better than him. If someone has COD posters all over their room that is enough set up to show they spend a lot of time on COD but someone being on a planet with thugs when we've seen that usually does not equal badass fighter with Luke literally having to be saved by Ben. Cal is even partially trained as a Padawan and still loses to low level inquistors but Rey is just taking on Sith Lord's who have nearly completed their training??? Quite the jump in logic for this world that has constant examples of the rule to the rules regularly being changed for Rey.
My concern is that she is unusually lucky as her flaws, amongst other things, lead her blunder into success a lot, as even trained force sensitive can still make mistakes, like Qui-Gon or Anakin Skywalker. Also, I wonder if familiarity with one weapon or skill set means that a person would be familiar with another weapon or skill set or learn it unusually quickly, such as just because she sees Kylo Ren read/influence her mind does not mean that she should be good at it. As for Jedi Mind Tricks not being hard, it seemed like Ahsoka Tano, a more popular female character who practically nobody claimed/claims was a Mary Sue, had been practicing for some time in a controlled environment, so her succeeding when someone else with proper training was confusing. My point should be that the story does not seem to properly challenge Rey or her flaw(s). At best, she is a poorly-written character, like Anakin from the prequel.
After seeing the 9th movie probably 3 times now (unpopular opinion, it's my favorite of the three) the only "Mary sue" scene that i noticed that was not mentioned in this video was in that one. A trait of a Mary Sue is when a new character likes her for no particular reason. When she fights Poes friend and throws her to the ground and puts a literal lightsaber in her face, the altercation ends with her saying "not that it matters, but I like you." I just feel like there was a deleted scene or line there because it still makes absolutely no sense to me why she would like her after that. Again, the only "Mary Sue" scene that I still can't defend to this day. Great video though. Never really saw her as a Mary Sue.
