So upon reading a few comments and doing a bit of research I’ve realized the Planet Viltrum destruction feat is barley Moon to Small Planet Level lol. so to correct myself even Low Class sayians slam elite Viltrumites in base and thragg is barley Napa level. Crazy
I think personally I would scale the saiyans to Goku vs King Piccolo fight, they would be closer to Goku's power level in that fight. Because Raditz is supposed to be an "elite" among them putting his power level at probably about double the regular ones. However, Roshi did also blow up the moon in the original DB. Piccolo blowing up the moon and comparing DBZ saiyans to him would be like saying all regular saiyans have a power level equal to raditz (piccolo was pretty close to it after that fight I believe if he got a zenkai boost).
@@xxJay2Freshxx pretty much, he left out the potential of saiyans, even tho he wanted to do a race to race comparisson, when you look at how other universes seemed to have accomplished the feat too it doesn't seem like it's an outliyer. I mean what would viltrimites do against Ki blasts or even Kio Ken for that matter?
even low class saiyans were sent to conquer planets by themselves as kids, viltrumies were only sent to weaken planets as grown adults, imagine people thinking viltrumites are comparable when they've only done half of what the saiyans done.
Sayins: We send our weakest babies to conquer planets, and you send grown adults with thousands of years of training just to weaken a planet? Viltrimites: Y-Yes... Sayins: Pathetic.
Saiyans and viltrumites way of conquer is very différent. Saiyans just kill everything. Viltrumite obviously dont want to do that. Even in universeses where Invincible turn evil, they dont kill everyone, while they could. Comparing viltrumites and saiyan on this matter is irrelevant.
Because that wasn't what the video was about. It was about how the two races would compare in combat against each other, so basically the Saiyan race as a whole rather than just Goku and Vegeta.
@@nathancurnutt8074I agree with you to an extent. He did bring up potential it seemed in the video in terms of speed. I say if we bring into account potential then it’s not an argument at all.
@@Pepesmall Back then, the galaxy that Broly destroyed was the South Galaxy (or the South Area). That was technically 1/4 or 1/5 of the universe at that time. So yeah, probably for the best to leave that one out.
A more simple reason why Saiyans are stronger than Viltrumites imo is Ki. It's just so versatile that the majority of viltrumites have no counters for. It improves their strength, durability, speed, allows them to get stronger. The viltrumites to me are just one trick ponies that can't do much if their opponent is on a similar strength as them while Saiyans have more biological advantages giving them the upperhand.
I don't know. Ki energy is shown to be something pretty much anyone can learn in the DBZ setting, so presumably the viltrumites could learn to wield it as well. If they got the physical and energy boosts of Ki, they'd be unstoppable on their base form.
but they wouldn’t learn it for many reasons. they like the fight to be bloody and painful, ki would mean potentially oneshotting. plus if they’re fighting the saiyans, they both wouldn’t have time to learn it, and wouldn’t have anyone to teach it to them. and even if they did have ki control, great ape.
ki isn't limited to genetics. literally any being, even an an can gather ki. THat makes viltrumites even less impressive. THey're saving grace is thier universe doesn't utilizes ki and strictly relies on genetics. saiyans have long thrown surpassed their own genetics beyond what's necessary. krillin could probably kill the leader of the viltrumites.
Honestly once that saiyans turn into great apes the viltrumites might just splatter and die on a really strong saiyan and just die because that's happened in Invincible.
basically someone like radditz would be like the prodigy freak of nature broly type for viltrumites or would that description rather fit to nappa? Vegeta (Saiyan arc) is a god among them for sure.
@@MrSunglxzz Raditz would be similar to a Broly archetype and Nappa would be like a god. An attack that completely obliterated the moon from Earth in an instant only managed to burn off his leghairs. No Viltrumite without composite feats should be able to no sell an attack like that. Not even EoS Mark.
I like that about the Invincible series. They show that strength and durability aren’t always paired equally. Seeing characters punch something so hard it destroys their own arm is never boring
Ironically, the Viltrumites might be Frieza's ideal henchmen. Fiercely loyal, strong enough to conquer 90% of planets (most planets are actually quite weak since even low-class Saiyan infants steamrolled most planets) in Dragon Ball, don't need ships, can hold breath in space, regeneration, long employment period due to long life, can breed with any species for more soldiers, and MOST importantly, a strength ceiling that would be VERY hard to break. No Super Saiyan threat or zenkai boosts to worry about.
@@tjpprojects7192 Knowing Freeza he'll most likely exterminate them when they start to get stronger and begin a rebellion, then he nukes their planet.
@@marcosgalvis3498 Well that's kinda goes against the point I was making... the Viltrumites won't ever be able to get strong enough to even attempt to rebel against Frieza in the first place. Viltrumites *DON'T* grow in power like that, they're feircely loyal (sploilers!!!!!!), and they can't even use ki. They're Frieza's perfect fodder soldiers.
@@tjpprojects7192 Frieza would probably equip them with blasters to make them marginally more useful, his mook soldiers seemed to have a destructive power between 1k and 3k since they weren't afraid of the Young Namekians' 1k reading, until they revealed they were holding back.
Although I agree the saiyans win, we all know the real winner is Frieza. Regardless of who emerges victorious, he gets strong employees for HIS empire.
Not really viltrumites doesn't use KI so we can strongly assume they don't sense it. They probably would pick up the fight with frieza and end up being vaporised
@@Wilky971Saiyans can't sense Ki either, only the earth Saiyans can because they've been taught to do so (Goku by master roshi and Vegeta after getting jumped by the remaining Z Fighters) Although, we don't know how they actually got recruited, so I can't really say your point wouldn't be valid
2:52 viltrumites use graviton to Accelerate themself to reach that speed, but in combat they would not get much time to Accelerate themself to reach that speed
Actually stated in the guides that the character alan can fight at his flight speed. Same alan can fight viltrumites who can react moving in a spaceship that can travel multiple galaxies in days. And those are weak guys. Let alone omni man.
@@Shamatama-pl1mcThis is true, but not the whole story. This is because Smart Atoms Graviton Effect auto adjusts their reactions to their current movement speed (for whatever speed they’re moving at. So Mach 10 Allen has Mach 10 reactions, and MFTL+ Allen has MFTL+ reactions. Similar to Flashtime). Also, it’s explicitly stated that in combat, Allen (and thus basically every Viltrumite, as they have the same flight method), reduces their speed to Mach 10 in atmosphere to prevent planetary destruction. Lastly, the Invincible Handbook explicitly states that Omni-Man only achieved that speed due to this same Smart Atom Effect massively accelerating their speed beyond their actual capabilities. As they reach SoL, and FTL, their atoms create subatomic jumps, with each in mass and speed (which is continuously stacking indefinitely so long as they fly as these jumps occur) multiplying their velocity far beyond light. Thanks to this and their automatic reflex adjustment, they can simulate MFTL+ speeds and operate at them in flight throughout space. This explicitly means they simply can’t operate at these speeds in combat-At least, not without sufficient prep time (I.e. building up their apparent movement speed before the fight starts). And they wouldn’t, because, again, they canonically limit their speed to Mach 10. While you might be considering if they switched methods mid-battle, at that point they’re stuck at Mach 10 Reactions, and the Saiyans are able to blitz and oneshot before they can even get offworld to create the conditions needed to cause their MFTL+ speed. Because unlike Viltrumites, Saiyans legitimately don’t care and will fully take advantage of their speed edge.
Man i love the fact that the super saiyan form wasnt even mentioned because at point it would be like stealing candy from a kid while having chuck norris as backup
Goku was the first to go super saiyan, it wasn't mentioned because the general population doest have access to it. This is a challenge between the Viltrum general population vs the Saiyan general population
@@legacyandrews1339 The video talks about the power levels of the top dogs of the Viltrumites at their best, not just the general population. He says Thragg is dwarf star level, as are Osaru forms of Prince and King Vegeta. And Osaru forms got left in the dust pretty quickly as DBZ went on.
Exactly, people keep having that debate on Twitter and elsewhere and I have the same responses: Nolan would have a decent shot at competing with pre-Namek DBZ characters, but after that wouldn’t even be able to stand up to Vegeta. The second you throw in Kaio-Ken or super sayian type power ups it’s a joke
Honestly, even Vegeta and Nappa invading Earth timeframe DBZ characters would be brutal opponents for Nolan, especially if any of the Saiyans or Half Saiyans go Oozaru
It didn't register until reading this. viltrumites don't show up in mass right away in the lore. So even with the difference in scale, the z-fighters would hold a candle. I mean... nappa was a threat, but part of it was also the inclusion of their little raditz-level plant-creatures. And by the time the rest of the viltrum empire got there, goku would've been back alive, and while he struggled in the end against vegeta, he still came out on top. Which would mean, since goku is never happy with his limits, his friends, and consequently goku, would've have been stronger than vegeta by the time the next viltrumites showed up. Not frieza-level of strong, but strong enough to make short work of them. The viltrum empire would have to throw bodies at them constantly- and if they failed to kill them fast enough to allow goku, piccolo, or most of the z-fighters a chance to get a senzu bean it'd be basically over with. This isn't even getting into the red ribbon stuff. Lets be honest here, android 16, 19, and 20 were all strong enough to give some trouble to the z-fighters, even if they didn't match up to goku or vegeta or gohan. So that'd be more threats for the viltrumites to deal with. Sure, evil people aren't always considered, but we gotta remember, gero was researching the entire time, he just failed to collect data when they went to nappa, otherwise he was watching the entire time. He clearly would have incorporated some of the viltrum data into his work, too.
So which DBZ character flies so fast that they can make nuclear fission? Any of them? Maybe they can breathe in space? Or touch and fight on the surface of the sun? I mean for Dragon Ball, triggering the core of a moon or a planet to self-destruct is impressive, but what Dragon Ball character could do that with their fists? We saw Goku needing a suit just to reach the Earth's core - we know it's hot... But any three Dragon Ball fighters able to plow through the Earth and punch the core together and make it explode, by chance? I wanna know which ones. Any of them capable of being in space and resisting a black hole's pull after it starts sucking them in? Can any of them toss an object around the planet and have it come back to them in a span of 15-20 seconds? You know, anything casual like that... I'll let you even drag Dragon Ball Super characters into the mix, because we know anyone from Namek-Sagaain't viable to do any of those feats.
@@MISTAWULFY Oh? What exactly has canon Goku been able to do? Also, show me EXACTLY where it happened. And don't power scale, because power scaling has been wrong since Dragon Ball's conception to western audience. If they haven't done it, they can't do it. Period. Head canon and "what ifs" aren't true so it means it's wrong.
The issue with your viltrumite scaling is that not only was the large planet feat split three ways it was actually mostly done by the space racers gun and it's stated by the characters themselves that they'd literally die if they tried it without the space racers gun (unstoppable force that once fired NEVER stops moving and cutting directly through anything and everything in the universe in its path) they wouldn't even be close to doing this feat. So at best they're really high small planet level which even nappa should and the likes of king vegeta that can quite literally wave away several planets could solo a majority of the race
@@sbthesage2100 generally they are given continental-small planet, their high ball tends to be low-end large planet. Even that is only for characters like thragg, mark, and Allen though
@@draculemihawk6120It's even worse thragg stated in the comics that they would need 37 vilturmites to physically destroy the earth so they'd be significantly weaker.
@@melvinking4173 that ones not quite the case, he said he and the other viltrumites would literally tear the earth apart. Nothing about him needing them, though this is also one of the main points people use to scale all viltrumites to continental+
A few things to note: In dragon ball (pre Z). When goku is still a child, master Roshi used a kamehameha to destroy the moon after fighting kid goku in a world martial arts tournament. (Goku was transformed at the time and wrecking havok) Goku barley lost against Roshi during that battle, they were almost equal. Since then, goku trained a lot and got much stronger. When goku eventually fought piccolo jr (the piccolo in z) they were both immensely stronger. At the point that dragon ball Z began, picolo had been training to fight goku again, learning the special beam cannon to get revenge for a loss near the end of dragon ball. It is very likely that the blast piccolo shot at the moon in Z was a standard ki blast with barely any energy put towards it. He didn’t have time to power up as gohan had transformed into the osaru. He just kinda realized what was happening and chucked some energy at the moon. So if you consider that, and how much stronger Raditz was than piccolo at the time being a low class warrior, the saiyans are likely even stronger than outlined in the video.
yeah, the stark difference in power between a proper Kamehameha and a random ki blast should really exaserbate the difference in power. he should've brought up Roshi, present the power increase of charged ki attacks, calc how much stronger piccolo was when he destroyed the moon, scale Raditz by that, and lastly take into account that all saiyan warriors generally know how to charge ki blasts meaning even if their basic power level is under the average Viltrumite they're not only strong enough to do damage but they can output attacks stronger than themselves which would likely do a Viltrumite in. the ki attack doesnt even need to come in the form of a blast as both Nappa and Vegeta can outright explode targets from a distance
@@vivelespatat2670 i wouldnt say no-diff but that Viltrumites would have to be putting in 100% effort because even the lowest level saiyan can put out attacks that will hurt and potentially kill the likes of Thragg if they're pushed far enough or given enough time to charge
Roshi only did that in his Max power state, which we're never given a power level for. King Piccolo was exhausted from destroying two small cities. Either Max Roshi is way incredibly stronger than you can imagine and that feat can't be compared relative to characters in that saga, or the moon is much smaller and closer in DB than in reality.
The feat of nolan, mark and Thaddeus destroying viltrum might not actually make them planetary because remember space racer also shot his gun at the same time as they flew through and so we don't know if it was an equal contribution
They flew the planet AFTER the core already destabilized by space racer’s gun and even then it took the three of them in perfect sync otherwise they would have just died on impact.
@@fmrc93Yeah, they are generally scaled from multi-continental to moon+. True they would have died if they struck the core. We just have to hope that the animated series would have better feats
Viltrumites aren't planetary. Thragg may just about be, but the three that destroyed viltrum are not, burrowing through a planet with an already destabilised core and path pre made does not make them planetary, heck they weren't even sure they could pull itmoff even with the hard work already done for them.
I stated this before, but if the Saiyans were all in great ape forms, it'll be no different from those Ragnars they fought against. Because by that point, even the weaker Saiyans can slaughter the Viltirmites quite easily. (With obvious exceptions)
Yeah, the average Ozaru is a lot more dangerous than a Ragnar because despite being huge they are still just as fast as their base form and a lot stronger, plus they can shoot ki blasts from their mouths.
@@nicolasromani3523 they are fast but remember that the Great Ape form is unwieldy, which is why Broly's Wrathful form was as impressive as it was. However the 10x power boost means they will be at least as manouverable as they were in base, just not the 10x they should be
@@_Tzer Think Dragon Ball Super Roshi would stomp in his sleep truthfully. Yajirobi still gets beat. DBZ Roshi could probably win but with hard difficulty.
Understand that bardock as a low class has a power level of 9 thousand probably due to combat experience,give raditz one month of training or a year of battle experience his powers would grow exponentially and even he would be able to bolo viltrumites
problem is that traditional Saiyans do not train. They fight to near death then recover with a Zenkai boost. Traditional training was almost totally foreign to them until Goku arrived on earth. Even innovations like the artificial moon were from recent history re Bardock inventing the technique.
@@graphthis2249 Bardock didn't invent Artificial moon tech. Vegeta wouldn't acknowledge any accomplishment from a low class saiyain such as Bardock. That was a dub line when the show first aired. Vegeta's original Japanese statement was that the moon light is absorbed by the saiyain's eyes and that only a few saiyains could use an artificial moon. I do agree with saiyains not training since they relied on Oozaroo transformations and natural ability. Saiyains were sent to other planets as a baby. Goku's upbringing was different since he was taught Karate and martial training methods at a young age.
@@graphthis2249 not true vegeta trained as a child and since raditz was low class he probably was sent off as child to conquer weak worlds due to his low power level give him the same treatment vegeta got and the Saiyans would figure out that training for power is far beneficial
You're under estimating the saiyans speed ( any saiyan with a power level of 150 or more ( which is basically all of the saiyans) are ftl due to son goku VS tienshinhan solar flare in the 22nd tenkaichi budokai where goku out paced the light of the solar flare technique to get a pare of sunglasses from master roshis) The solar flare technique magnify the amount of light with ki
You're assuming that the brightness of the solar flare is an instantaneous thing. Kinda like saying that flipping a switch turns the lights on at the speed of light. This isn't the case.
If they are FTL then why does it take Beerus (who is vastly stronger) over 30 minutes to arrive from his planet to Earth.... With the aid of Whis I should add. The speed scaling makes no sense in dragon ball as if it did, Beerus would be several hundred times FTL.
tbf doing math in dragon ball, z and super is silly since didn’t it take goku like 8 minutes to cross the underworld with pikkon (whoever it was). not to mention if it was a full war between both species amonsgst the many saiyans there has got to be atleast 5 good saiyans (an unborn baby counted so yeah) then boom god ki. such a bullshit transformation
@@vgchat That doesn’t disprove FTL tho. 30 minutes travel time from a planet millions of light years away from earth is still FTL lol I don’t think we’re ever given the actual distance tho.
While scaling is a very finicky thing when it comes to comparing comics to other comics, or even anime/manga, this was handled mostly well, I actually liked this lol. And as someone who actually puts combat AND travel speed into different categories, I already had faith I was watching a good video.
Fun fact the creator of invincible is a huge dragon ball fan and based the viltrumites of saiyans hince why so many similarity also with saiyans its hair while with viltrumites its moustache.
Thats weird...because i.heard the opposite years ago before the show came out; Kirkman only heard about Saiyans later in the series run and called the similarities a huge coincidence.
@@loopyfists You mean a guy who literally had an episode referencing animators working smarter not harder and you believe him not to take inspiration from popular medium? The reason for this is because japan do not have fair use in the same way as america and the only way to circumvent this is to feign ignorance by claiming its just a coincidence while saying "i have never heard of such thing" why do you think in the credits they always use that disclema of "anything resembling said characters is mere coincidence." Want a example of how extreme animation studios can be look at Studio Ghibli if they catch wind of anything of there's showing any sign of similarity they will come for your ass. Also look at DBZ is portrayed and invincible first and second season. Basically omniman is the villain personality like vegeta also they both had a child with a earthling and invincible is like gohan a half breed who has a child with a earthling. Omniman is all about his pride for his race and believing nothing comes before them also is one of royalty. While invincible shows signs of the naivety of gohan yet growing into his own. The similarities are there its just the creator mixed them up a bit to appear original this is not a bad thing mind you as it can create some really good what ifs but the idea he took no inspiration is absolute garbage.
@@SefirothPH Buffed Master Roshi with a base power 139 destroyed the moon with a decent amount of exertion. Piccolo casually did it with ONE HAND while at a power level of 408. Their individual attacks that destroyed the Moon were probably equivalent, but buff Roshi was 100% weaker than Piccolo when he destroyed the moon. Considering how easily Piccolo did it, and with how much difficulty Buff Roshi did it, I highly doubt that Buff Roshi's power level went above 300. You however seem to be *ENTIRELY* missing my point. My point is that the video was saying Piccolo's power of 408 is the minimum it would takr to destroy a moon in Dragonball, but I'm arguing that it's LESS than 408 that's required to destroy a moon, with Buff Roshi (WHO WAS ALSO TIRED AFTER FIGHTING GOKU) as my proof. So really, the moon-busting levels of power shouldn't be 400+, but rather 200-300+.
@@tjpprojects7192 Funny how you say Buff Roshi was tired after fighting Goku and then also point out how much difficulty he had destroying the moon. That logically would follow wouldn't it? Also, where is this 300 number coming from? You're just making it up with zero evidence lol. You could also presume that Roshi was weaker than King Piccolo, despite the fact that King Piccolo was struggling and exhausted after merely destroying 2 small cities. My point is that you don't know the multiplier and can't presume anything.
@@SefirothPH Wow, you really don't listen do you. Guess I'll get out some troll-feed from the pantry then. 1. Buff Roshi was tired when he festroyed the moon. 2. It's a FACT that one's power level DROPS when tired. 3. Buff Roshi's peak base peak power was 139. 4. Piccolo *CAUSUALLY* destroyed the moon at a level of 408. 5. In order to do something *CAUSUALLY,* one's power level must be decently above the power level necessary for said task. 6. Considering Piccolo did it *CASUALLY* at 408, it can be concluded that the power level needed to destroy the moon is below 408, and not *AT* 408. 7. At least in the anime, it was stated that Buff SSJ1 Vegeta basically had the similar strength as a SSJ2, but not the speed or stamina of one. This means that Buff forms are likely a 2-3x multiplier, coinciding with SSJ2's own 2x multiplier. So at least one source already says that Buff forms basically double one's power. Because of the aformentioned FACTS, it's likely that the power necessary to destroy a moon is well *LESS* than 408. Roshi's Buff form is likely no more than a 2-3x multiplier. At PEAK base power, he was at 139. 139 x 3 = 417. Because Piccolo *CASUALLY* blew up the moon at 408, this means that Buff Roshi absolutely did *NOT* exceed 408 power when he *STRUGGLED* to blow up the moon. Considering Roshi was also weakened, it's likely his level was closer to 100, rather than 139. Going by the likely 2-3x multiplier that the Buff form probably is, I can conclude that Buff Roshi must have been between a power level of 200-300 when he destroyed the moon. If you took the time to think critically about how power levels, exhaustion, and multipliers work in Dragon Ball, you wouldn't be as confused as you are. Also, I *NEVER* said that any of this was concrete. *YOU* were the one who assumed I was stating facts. "wHeRe Is ThIs 3o0 nUmBeR cOmInG fRoM?" oh I don't know, maybe logical deduction based on evidence as shown in Dragon Ball? Plus, I never said 300, I said "300+", and "200-300" *IN THEIR OWN CONTEXT!* Don't lie about what I've said. Sure, I don't "know" the multiplier, but based on FACTS given in the series, it's a fairly easy thing to deduce. 2-3x based on all evidence seems to be a guess that is *WELL* within logical reasoning unlike what you seem to think. Next time, either don't be a condescending idiot, or please use your brain so others don't have to use theirs for you. Best wishes :P
@@tjpprojects7192 So it's not possible that Buff Roshi had a higher power than Piccolo but he was tired and therefore had to try to moonbust rather than do it casually? That's an impossibility?
Advisor: "King Vegeta, there are people attacking planet vegeta, they are strong but i don't think they are apart of Frieza's army, should we send out the elites warriors?" King vegeta: "Really?, Just send in the Low class warriors, they'll deal with them"
Another factor to consider is that the Sayians are high level martial artists while the Viltrumites appear to be more like brawlers. If all stats where even, I don't think a Viltrumite could contend with a Sayian skill-wise.
Also I think when comparing the class system in Sayians high, mid, and low, it's a monarchy so so high levels like Vegeta would be nobility where lows like Raditiz or Bardock would be commoners. Even from a power level standpoint Raditiz stacks up to the lower end of an average Frieza Force soliders. Plus it's not just Raditiz but the Sayians that Krillin and the others fought in the room on Kami's lookout four fighters that had a combined power level of roughly 1500 were destroyed in minutes against two Sayian warriors and these seasoned fighters that could keep up with Goku and Piccolo.
Yo thx for this bro. As a DBZ fan i naturally was biased for the saiyans to win but you brought actual facts and logic to this which made it enjoyable. Hope to see more from you.👍
It is worth noting, that power levels don't scale that way. They aren't linier and are more exponential. This means a power level of 1200 is not three times stronger than a power level of 400, it's much greater. The best example of this is in the introduction of PLs. If the average human (farmer with a shotgun) has a power level of 5, this would mean Beginning of Z Piccolo and others around that level would only be ~80 times stronger than the average human, which obviously isn't the case.
It's also important to note that for both of them there is the obvious writing plot holes, such as Viltrumites having horribly inconsistent durability, speed, and strength specifically so that whatever scenario they happen to be in can seem dire or can be wrapped up quickly if need be, or like with Saiyans being unable to breathe in space, yet we are repeatedly shown saiyans standing out in the vacuum of space with no sort of protective equipment and being just fine, and I'm not just talking about the times they are shown in the outer stratosphere of planets because something they would regularly do is blow up planets that they deemed worthless. Then there is also the underestimation of speed of DB characters as this video seems to only be looking at info from DBZ, but in DB it is established that even characters as weak as kid Krillin are able to move so much faster than light that nobody is able to see them move and have drawn out exchanges, regardless of how far away the viewer is, which even applies to the fighters themselves as they do not fight with their normal senses, but rather by sensing the energy of their opponents. In this same regard, it is established that as a person becomes proportionately more powerful, they also tend to become faster as well, which is demonstrated by the fact that while Goku is able to fight faster than light, Raditz was still able to outmaneuver him with ease and even dodge the special beam cannon, which prompted Piccolo to exclaim, "he's even faster than light!" (at least in some versions) and was so much faster than the two of them (who were massively faster and stronger than when Krillin and Roshi demonstrated their speed) that Goku had to sacrifice himself just to win. That was against the weakest of the Saiyan warriors too, so really, their speed is likely thousands of times faster than the speed of light if even humans of the DB world are able to move faster than light. Let's also not forget that before Piccolo blew up the moon, Roshi did it first and Roshi is so massively weaker than Piccolo that Roshi was killed in the original series just from trying to contain DK Piccolo. So really, the weakest of saiyan warriors is actually many hundreds if not thousands of times beyond moon level.
The thing is that the Saiyans also have more experience when it comes to fighting, they not only become stronger over the course of the fight, they also learn the patterns and know how to counterattack on each occasion, such as: The fight against Bardock and a group of 3 people trying to kill him, 1v3 and Bardock still won against them (he had problems but he still won) Or the fight against Teen Gohan against Cell, Gohan became SSJ2 and managed against Cell not only because he was stronger, it was because he learned Cell's patterns just like Goku planned because that was the reason he wanted to go first instead from gohan
Yeah. Raditz had a power level of 1200, which most Saiyans considered him a "weakling" for, and yet he was still strong enough to wipe the floor with Goku & Piccolo *_AT THE SAME TIME_* of all things, and both Goku & Piccolo by that point were absolutely stronger than Roshi was when he destroyed the moon. Since not even Viltrumites can destroy an entire planet unaided, and _Roshi_ destroyed the moon while being one of the weakest characters by the time Raditz showed up to me indicates that even the strongest Viltrumites would be pathetically easy for even Raditz to defeat. Roshi at his peak (prior to his power boost in DBS) had a power level of 140. This means that even the strongest Viltrumites would probably have a power level of around 100-120 (so they could give Roshi a genuine challenge, but Roshi would still be a bit stronger). But by the time Nappa & Vegeta arrived on Earth, even Chiaotzu would absolutely wipe the floor with the Viltrumites, as Saiyan Saga Chiaotzu had a power level of 600 (he was the weakest Z Fighter in that particular fight, and yet he's almost six times as strong as "moon buster" Roshi).
TBH I'd even argue there are also more Saiyan's than Viltramites before their respective destruction because Saiyans lacked the internal conflicts the Viltramites experience with their systematic murdering of their weak.
I really hate the Invincible planet feat being used. I get he's high balling, but the core was blown out and it took three of them. It's small Planetary when divided properly or LESS considering the core was gone. Regardless, good video
Also Viltrumites don't have the "strength boost" as I call it which means the sayians get stronger after getting their souls rocked and since both races love to fight, it's a race against endurance if anything else.
@Drunklotus No they aren't, they get stronger as they age. Mark was growing stronger because of half Human and half Viltrumite, which is kind of similar to Hybrid Saiyan. Allen is the only character who does have "Zenkai Boost" in the entire series.
You forgot the fact that the more a sayin fights and/or is injured the stronger the get as well as there rage playing into it which helps unlock things like super sayin
1:54 the thing people ignore about this fest constantly is the fact that they needed preptime. To hit a specific weak point of the core of the planet. And they previously shot it with a powerful planet buster ray thing to weaken and destabilize the core of the planet.and they themselves claimthat the explosion of the olabet wouldhave killed them had they not outran it. Or thatif they hit at the wrong time theywould have just splat against the core and died. Sothe feat is shared between 3 and is probably small planet level at most. For each.
1. They did not need preptime, Thaedus thought of the plan mid-fight. 2. They did not have to hit a specific weakpoint of the planet, Thaedus just said that they have the reach the planet at the same time. 3. Space racers gun is just one big energy beam, making a small hole in a planet negligibly decreases it GBE, also Thaedus doesn't know how space racers gun works so by his knowledge the destabilization of the core is just a small hole through it. 4. Thaedus said that if they don't time it perfectly they could die on impact (Thaedus is the weakest of the 3 viltrumites), he also thought they needed allen and tech jacket to blow up the planet so I don't think he had a perfect grasp on the force required for this feat. 5. You are right that the feat is split in three but it would scale to ~large planet level if you use calcs that calculate the energy of the entire planets explosion and not just early surface destruction.
@@DaichiOkami that's in the show which is a different cannon than the comic. In the comic it was only stated that the ray will blast a path through anything. Planets, stars or ships. Though this was only a theory by omni man as no one ever got close enough to study it. Also if you use the argument that it blows up stars then viltrum is more durable than a star because the infinity ray didn't blow it up (mark, thaedus and omni man did), so this would upscale viltrumites to ~star level.
there is a differrence in Velocity and acceleration. Yes the viltrumites can accelerate really fast, but they need to also hit their target. in Space they can accelerate to their terminal velocity during travel of course, but they can't stop in an instant, they need to decelerate before reaching the destination, or they just cause a cataclysmic event. The sayans win because they are more powerful, but they can keep up with their velocity in a fight. they cant accelerate to 60% lightspeed in that short ammount of time.
Something that I think is missed is when Omni Man killed the Guardians he was going all out and after the battle was over passed out do to the damage inflicted on him. The same happened when he fought a giant kaiju the creature came so close to killing him that the government kept the thing then Frankensteined it to take him out which it came close. So I don't see Viltramites doing as well as people would expect I think it's a lot closer to the point of the Sayians probably go Oozaru and just massacre them.
Oh my god...that Hybrid would live for thousands of years while only getting stronger as it ages and it would get a Zenkai Boost every time it recovers from a near death experience just like Allen the Alien... Basically Vegeta if he got his wish for immortality.
The ideal warrior would be a saiyan with another saiyan. Also viltrumites have invasive DNA, their kids always have high chances of being 100% the potential of any other viltrumite, for wich their blood carries between generations perfectly, while Saiyan is recesive (reason why each generation lacks more and more the level up capabilities of a pure saiyan for mixing with humans, in other words. Viltrumites would make the Saiyan race weaker , and possibly lose the ability to use ki over generations. It would still be stronger than human+viltrumite, but not as strong as a pure Saiyan, and even that is debatable, because humans even with some struggle, can learn ki , wich lets them exceed their own limits. If viltrumites, being a warrior race, never learn to use energy attacks, in invincible , a comic with beings capable of doing such thing, It means they just can't train ki.
The feat of nolan, mark and Thaddeus destroying viltrum probably doesn't count since space racer with his gun which has star busting power shot at the planet at the same time weakening it's core
I'm surprised people even debate this. Saiyans conquer planets pretty much by themselves, and by the time Goku attains his Super Saiyan form, he has the power to destroy planets too, and he has become orders of magnitude stronger since then.
Even if Saiyans are just stronger at their weakest, they get stronger, literally, the longer the fight drags on, so that stat alone will make them far stronger than Viltrimites in general
The Omniman space traveling speed feat is incorrect, and that's bc Earth is also located inside the Virgo Supercluster. The Milky Way is inside the Local Group galaxy cluster, which is located in the Virgo Supercluster(it's like saying u r going home when u r already at home). The info that appears at 2:51 is not about the Virgo SUPERcluster, but about Virgo CLUSTER, which is placed in the middle of the SUPERcluster (with the local group being near it). And considering that the statement says that the planet to which Nolan traveled to is located inside the Virgo Supercluster, but doesn't specify in which part of it, the planet could be anywhere from right here in the Milk Way all the way to the furthest border of the Supercluster. All of this renders this feat invalid due to the lack of specific information.
That's fair. I would point out though that if lacking specific information renders a feat invalid, Dragon Ball has zero FTL feats and plenty of feats and plot beats that make FTL speeds impossible lol.
@@thereynaldosan7695 I don't know about the anime, it's loony and full of non-canon filler like King Vegeta blasting away 3 planets simultaneously from vast differences apart. But I've read the manga from start to finish at least twice and there's ONLY vague feats you can speculate about. Every time Toriyama gets the opportunity to tell us exactly how fast they're going, it's consistently NOT light speed. He always seems to ballpark his characters as vaguely supersonic. For example, Krillin in the Cell Saga at max speed was only just faster than Bulma's plane, which was going to take 20 minutes to reach Kame House from Capsule Corp. Gohan in base form at the beginning of the Buu Saga took 20 minutes to reach his school from his house (obviously that was slightly different than Krillin's scenario, Gohan wasn't going his top possible speed and he was weaker than he was during the Cell Saga).
@@SefirothPH gohan was going to school with the yelow cloud and that thing is much slower than him flying, i think gohan was just being lazy. on the manga you can see ki attacks traveling to the moon almost instantly at the very beginning and also you can see the warriors dodge those attacks pretty ofthem, so one can asume they are ftl at some point between sayan and freezer saga.
@@thereynaldosan7695 In context, Gohan was in a hurry. He flew in his Gt. Saiyaman outfit and was trying to see how fast he could reach school so that he knew how long he could sleep in each morning before getting ready for school. So he wasn't going 100% max speed in a life or death situation, but he was obviously and logically going much faster than say, Saiyan Saga Goku would be capable of flying. And it still took him 20 minutes. And I don't buy that. Piccolo destroyed the moon because the plot required him to. There's no time given for the feat. It works differently depending on the context. Gohan and Krillin blitz Recoome's Eraser Gun which makes zero sense according to powerscaler logic. Obviously speed does not work at all how powerscalers imagine it works.
Tragh, invincible and Nolan destroyed the Planet by hitting the core that by the way was damaged. So viltrumites strongest worriors are at maximum Moon level tò Planet level
Btw scaling thragg 8x more than the rest is so vague and u can easily say the same argument for saiyans as mid and elite should be able to one tap low class saiyans who can turn a moon into dust which is planetary in power. Also the saiyan ability to become stronger shown with bardock and nappa
I feel space itself needs to be accounted for for the speed portion. Space is essentially zero gravity and no friction so if you’re able to direct yourself towards a direction i.e. flying, wouldn’t you be able to accelerate so fast because of no real resistance in space? And with flying you’re able to slow down and control your speed.
the core saiyan strength isn’t ki or baseline strength ITS THE FREAKISH ABILITY TO ADAPT TO A DEFEAT & BECOME STRONGER IF THEY SURVIVE. If a saiyan escapes you NEXT TIME YOU WON’T BE ABLE TO ESCAPE IT!!! People always forget thats their craziest power & the reason dbz is where it is now as far as power scaling👍
@@Nestle245 yeah, remember that Krillin was able to easily beat the Saibamen, which were stated to be around Raditz strength levels, and he was also able to contest with the Cell Juniors
And to think that the Invincible creator even thought that Viltrumites could be on the same level as Kryptonians, let alone surpass them. Guy is clearly delusional.
@AnimeFanClub786 most of those are non-cannon elsword stories where the writers are allowed to mess with the power scaling. The mainline comicbook Superman is beyond multiverses in power speed and durability.
I kinda figured Saiyans just kinda wipe, but what about specifically Invincible vs the greatest hero Earth has ever known, the Great Saiyaman? It's probably the same deal, but I wonder if a maritime teen Gohan would win against Mark? Probably.
I mean, that version of Gohan is still hundreds of times stronger than even Goku on Namek, and Mark is not even at that level, so it would likely be an easy wipe. Something I see people skim over is that in Invincible, if you hit something that is much more durable than you, your body will literally just break, so even if the Viltirmites were to "speed blitz" them (I don't think that they are faster or if they are only by small margin) They would literally explode on impact with any even somewhat competent Saiyan. It's just not happening unfortunately
Mark would literally explode on contact with Gohan He'd just blink him away if he wanted the same way freiza blinked away that mountain range in the namek saga
People seriously trying to compare Viltrumites to Saiyans, LET ALONE characters like Goku and Vegeta is just a symptom of people who don't know anything about anime and comics getting into them via what is for all intents and purposes a rated M cartoon. I've been saying it for years, people need to just stop trying with the DB universe. The characters from DB have one of the most overlooked and busted hax abilities; And it's not limited to Goku or Vegeta. Even someone like Yamcha or Roshi could no diff a majority of fiction because they have stronger ki than other franchise characters, which means they can no sell any attack they have. There's a reason everyone hates people who say "can he beat goku though?", and it's because everyone already knows that nobody can.
I think it’s really cringe to suggest people are moving anywhere near the speed of light at the start of Z. And same issue with Omni mans speed given you’re applying real world distances to there fictional characters travelling to fictional planets. And calculating the speed of blasts which have to be some of the most inconsistent (for the sake of having cool looking fights) things in the entire series. You could use this logic to suggest Roshi is capable of FTL speeds because he dodged attacks in super which scales him ludicrously. It’s just silly.
@@sbthesage2100 also I like the video where Naruto and Luffy fighting each other's past enemies. You should do the same for Ben 10 and Naruto. Starting at Classics and Ending at Ultimate alien or Omniverse. Or Why not Ben 10 and Luffy
There is always one key stat from DBZ that is always missed in speed calculations. Goku travels from King Yemma's to King Kai's in roughly six months. Doesn't seem all that impressive until you consider that the Dragonball Z/Dragonball Super map puts the distance traveled at around 1/4 to 1/2 the diameter of the universe. In the same map, this is roughly the distance from Earth to Namek. Put bluntly, Goku at the strength he was at when he fought Raditz, could run as fast as Kami's old space ship could travel. If Saiyans could breath in space, they wouldn't need ships.
so the y throw hands and as soon as viltrumites strongest start killing multiple saiyans one saiyan throws a artificial moon and the viltrumites are claped understood also 2nd
Chi Chi in the twenty third budakai Tournament Would Manhandle Thragg. Lol Chi Chi at Her Peak is Moon Level+ Level. Will Viltrimites are at least multi contidental Level Max/Form Roshi Destruction of the moon is Small Planet Level Keep in mind The Three Viltrimites Destroying the planet was circumstantal and They had to time a correctly or they would have been destroyed by the explosion.. So it's clear, they're Durabilty Is Lower Then Thier Ap.
Max Form Roshi had to multiply his stats with a kamehameha to destroy the moon. It isn't something any early dragon ball character can achieve without a ki blast. So she's country-continent at best.
@@TomasBregman Chi Chi is Moon Level based on Scaling. Roshi in 22 Would still Be Stronger Then Max Roshi with The Kamahaha. I don't think your argument applies because there's no logic in it
The first named sayian villain was a dude who surpassed all previous dragon ball feats and two of the characters blew up the moon and they did that with their KI.
I'm just happy you're using The Saiyans as a race in total, not just Goku and Vegeta. Those two are not only incredibly lucky to have survived this long as a full blooded Saiyan, but also a 1 in a Trillion (more really) to have gotten this strong. Most Saiyans capped out at Vegetas original power level, and Broly is a mutant.
Could you imagine a Sayain Viltrumite hybrid? You’re talking about a warrior with the strength of a Sayain but the lifespan and ability to survive in space of a Viltrumite. It is a scary thought. Plus I think there is something to be said with Viltrumites durability
0:45 Raditz is a mid class warrior according to an interview with Toriyama, not a low class. The power levels of the average Low class Saiyan warriors should just be in the hundreds going off of this.
One fact to consider: Yamcha was initially mistaken for Goku in the Android Saga, as Dr. Gero could sense an "Extrodinary Power" as he put it. Which means he had to have enough power for Dr. Gero to bother even draining him. Around the time of the "Other World" saga, Pikkon beat the everloving shit out of Perfect Cell, and Olibu put up a good fight against Pikkon. Later on in the saga, there's a point where Gorilla and Olibu get dropkicked by Yamcha. Olibu, who is a man that's basically the embodiment of a hero of myth for many on Earth, gets DROPKICKED BY YAMCHA, WHILE HE HAD HELP NO LESS. Cecil blasting Omniman with a satellite cannon got him a nosebleed, and Vegeta's only at 14,000 when he could blow up the planet. After the Saiyan Saga, literally almost ANY Z fighter can go toe to to with Omniman, save Yajirobe. His only advantage is not needing to breathe in space, so if he's smart, he's running. And he'd be lucky if Goku didn't Instant Transmission to him and get his ass back to a breathable atmosphere. BULMA could beat him, though it would involve building a bomb that's on the level of Dr. Gero (a Goku-busting bomb at that point in the saga too).
The thing about speed in a frictionless gravitationless vacuum is that as long as you can accelerate indefinitely AND somehow exceed the speed of light then hypothetically there would be no limit to how fast you could become over any significant length of time.
One explanation I can think of for how Viltrumites are so much faster when traveling in space is that maybe when in space they can accelerate as much as they want, but can't do that near a planet cause of the counter forcers acting on them. Another is that it simply takes alot of time to build up that much speed
One other thing to note about the speed of Nolan in space doesn’t count the fact that in space he’s got no air resistance, plus the saiyans can raise the speed when raising their power level and also counting the fact that saiyans can multiply they’re own strength and speed outside of transformation kinda puts theme in a league of their own. Also due to zen Kai boost during combat say the average saiyans battles an average viltrumite and starts to lose… depending on how angry the saiyans is, even the average saiyans might just go super at least for that one time.
Hey friend quick bit of info from a db fan since db in the 80's, kid goku and krillin in the first tournament they entered were already capable of fighting faster than the eye could see, and it got to the point by the saiyan saga that even characters that could see faster than light combat by SENSING them couldnt keep up with their speed from time to time, they used pods to traverse space for convenience and bc they couldnt breathe in space, but their combat speed even by first fights in z were considered WAY beyond light speed. Idk if u factored that in and idk about invincible much but just a thought.
Honestly, it would be a bloody, bloody war that both sides would score good wins but also take hard losses in. But with the sheer power potential Saiyans have, especially how it scales up, I think the Viltrumites would be biting off much more than they can chew. They could probably tear through many lower class warriors, but that would only attract the elites that are many, many times stronger and more capable than them. And with zenkai boost, the longer this war went on, the more freakish examples of warriors the Saiyans would end up having, and they could easily start to dictate the direction of the war alone. Especially with a Zenkai boost, even the lower class Saiyan veterans of the worst battles would end up growing much, much stronger very quickly, and the strongest Saiyans would grow even stronger than that. The entire Saiyan race competing against an enemy that can threaten them, either a lot or a little bit, just results in the Saiyans eventually outscaling their enemy from the constant training if the war goes on long enough. Something that Frieza noticed was a huge liability when using them as lifelong mercenaries, as it has the same effect on them.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for separating travel speed from combat speed. I don't know how this concept escapes so many people, but thinking that someone's max running speed means anything to how fast they can fight and react to a fight is just crazy. Obviously having a fast travel speed means you must have the ability to react quickly so you don't trip or hit things, but Usain Bolt being able to quickly adjust his foot doesn't mean he's able to dodge the fastest punches from a boxer(he might, I don't know if dude can fight, but you get me). Last, of course there are levels to this that at a certain point it does affect things significantly enough to matter, but I still hate including someone's max speed in the vastness of space (nothing to even need to dodge really) to their hand to hand fighting on a planet.
The scarier part of this is ki manipulation leads to being able to do things like super saiyan, kaioken, and techniques like the special beam cannon which can amp the threat of saiyans significantly. Plus if the viltrumites don't fully kill a saiyan and they get that zenkai boost. It's a wrap.
