Why Smash Players Hate Commentators 

Me: time to hear about smash bros twitter drama Toph: Here’s how human nature works

I think smash commentators are much closer to the top player than top player think in a way that make it "unprofessional". When you watch overwatch, it's almost the same as football or any irl sports, you listen and it's great but there are barely anything that is said beside what's happening right in front of your eyes. You watch baseball and 3/4 the time nothing is said. I like the smash commentary where sometimes commentators go on a big tangent for no reason that nobody asked for but you know it happens because they enjoy the game and they do it because it's a passion and they can't shut their mouth about it. Sometimes it goes overboard (for most casual viewers), I agree, but overall I think it's fine. If top players have a problem with something a commentator said, talk to them about it like adult and try get your point across that you don't like it.

I actually really enjoy melee commentary in general. It honestly impresses me how many well spoken commentators there are in the melee community. People don't realize how hard it is to be well spoken, and being able to convey concise thoughts on the go especially during a fast paced game like melee.

In my mind Toph is THE commentator. Scar and Toph are the voice of melee and I don’t think I would be following the scene without them. The fact that toph is still around is really important and adds so much to the final sets. Newer commentators are getting there though!

Good video. Love watching your stuff to loosely keep up with melee

Love your commentary, Toph!

Great video and thanks for the kind words Toph! One thought I was thinking is that I’ve legit never met an established commentator that isn’t quite good at the game. It’s easy to know that Toph/Brandon/Phil/Vish/Scar are good, but Slime/Stude/Wisely/Walt/Blur/Darkgenex etc are all very good as well. Even lesser known commentators like Tuesday, Blargh, Seal etc are all very good. You basically can’t get this involved in the game without being at least better than 90%+ of the players or more lol. Treating the standard of “good” as “are you top 100” is an insanely high standard that would make no sense in the context of other games lol.

this is one of my favorite videos of yours, very nuanced and understanding

Haters gon hate. Keep doin you toph, what you and all the other commentators add to the scene is invaluable. Explaining what is happening in a game played at light speed is soooooo important to new players to the scene. Everyone will have their preference on who they want on comms. The character different commentator duos bring to a set makes spectating fun compared to no commentary. Fools that don't appreciate commentary can always watch on mute lolol

Such a good video on the subject. Good looks Toph!

I really dislike when commentators are unbiased, weird opinion. I'd rather listen to someone who doesn't lie about their feelings and provide a viewpoint. Becoming unbiased should have a lower priority than prioritizing the story which affects the fans. Play by play commentary, which is usually brought up as a way to communicate the match can get stale and not as in depth, so id rather have a commentator who focuses on a player and talks about their perspective. Not trying to say one way is better than the other, rather that the value of best decision is layered.

I’m digging the new cut my g. Very fresh Also, please tell Scar WHATEVER you think he needs to hear in order to come back to us on commentary

Melee players just expect too much from their scene. They don’t understand that there truly is no money in it. They don’t understand that tournaments are actually community events that we like to put pride on.

As someone who watches both esports and traditional sports, I think people just don’t really like commentators in general lol I don’t mind them, some can be biased but also insightful or funny which I personally feel is more endearing and enjoyable than just someone who calls the game as it is because they’re more passionate about it. Some can be a bit much though but I’m good at tuning out and just focusing on the game when that happens

You’ve been part of so many epic commentator moments, you and Scar play off each other so well

First and foremost, being a commentator is not easy. It is not easy to keep everyone's attention all of the time, or to be the perfect castor in every moment at every second. Before people get down and talk about castors being bad, just acknowledge the difficulty of this Field and give credit where it's due. I think toph really covers this subject excellently. It is SO hard for new castors to get in. People can make it difficult to get into this field easily, especially if they don't feel like you're correct or know anything about the game you're casting over. And it's really easy to bash and ask them to get off the mic. That being said, I can definitely empathize with many of the comments I've read in the comment section I mostly do commentary for MegaMan Battle Network now, and I am very passionate about that field, so it's easy to talk about and get involved. I miss doing Smash Bros commentary, and I think I want to get back into it and really hone my skill. But I bring this up because I want to say that I am always working on my commentary and myself.

im not a big fan of melee as a game ( respect it though but its flaws outweight its benefits for me) but i've always been absolutely blown away by melee commentary, the depth of knowledge is unlike anything else in any other game

Toph your RU-vid content is pretty dope these days gotta give props

Am I wrong for feeling that Smash has some of the best commentators? I don't follow the actual Smash community much outside of watching tourney vids and occasionally watching some players channels, so I never hear any of the drama, but personally, I've felt that compared to say, Pokemon competitions' announcers, the Smash ones tend to be more knowledgeable, engaged/lively, and entertaining without being cringy(then again I grew up in NJ, so many of the most well known commentators sound like the kind of people I grew up playing Smash with.

It’s pretty simple for me - sports have a play by play and a color commentator. Whenever smash has that format, it works, and the commentary is enjoyable. When there are two kids up there simply yelling random stuff, getting sidetracked, talking about their own games, it adds nothing to the matches. Listen to some Amsa matches from double down. It’s all over the place.

I think it's largely because Fox came up first and then the other characters got pushed by people like Plup and Zain and the like and because of this I think it's less of "Fox is not good or too hard" and more of "Fox is good but so is Marth, Sheik, Peach, etc etc". But people tend to ignore context and just go "lol Fox sucks now"

I love commentators. Scar and toph are ones of a few group of people I can really say that I can look up to and learn from. Learn how to grow as a person. Not even just in melee. Scar and toph show and the reads were goated. Really pleased to see that you two got together the other day for it. My goal this week is to bike every day. And a goal in melee I want to work on is, try and not get reversed when the enemy crouch cancels an attack. (They talked about goals and the importance of them in the new scar and toph episode)

The real GRIND for anyone starting up in anything like commentary, twitch, or RU-vid, is getting through all of the hate ppl bring your way until they finally respect you and show you gratitude once you’ve become established,

As someone who was introduced to you via that "Just quit" moment, I can 100% say you've redeemed yourself, at least in my eyes. Good shit my man.

Super appreciate your kind words Toph. Both you and Vish have been so inspiring for me in working through that minority of negativity, I know it’s a continuous process but damn am I glad to have people like you to look towards ❤️

When this video started I had a sudden urge to cut down trees and look for copper.

Love you Toph!

what is the song at 14:50 i recognize it but i cant figure out what it is

I agree with your point that people want their voice to be heard, I think that's a really good observation. I sometimes feel when I'm watching a tournament or even a random stream, like I'm waiting for someone to say what I'm thinking so I feel some kind of validation to my opinion. It's probably pretty silly but it's probably some deep down fundamental human thing where you want people to agree with you. That being said, I don't think I've ever really been that picky with commentary. Scar+Toph commentary is my favorite, admittedly, but that might just be cause I'm a huge Scar fan (you are great too Toph) but it seems like a lot of people are reeeally picky with what they want the commentators to say. I enjoy a lot of color commentary, or even just enjoyable discussion during less important sets. I feel like a lot of the commentary complainers expect a super analytical play by play style ALWAYS, which I probably wouldn't enjoy myself. Ultimately, I think it's a situation where you can't win em all. Some people will enjoy your style, some won't. But also who cares? It's like 20 reddit/twitter users bitching about it. I've always enjoyed melee commentary and I would be kind of sad if good commentators felt like they needed to change just because of a small minority of people.

Toph is legit my favorite personality in the melee community. Im a smash ultimate player, i don't even play melee, I just enjoy watching and listening to these extremely experienced, long time players/commentators. plus toph is very well articulated and his humour is godlike lol

Out of the games I follow, Melee has some of the only commentary I will actually listen to. I feel like commentary in most games either tries too hard to fill up dead space with nonsense or doesn't do a good job of keeping up with what's happening. I feel like Melee commentary does these things to a lesser extent, if at all, because the game should be able to speak for itself and the commentators should be helping newer people understand more complicated scenarios. Part of it maybe that play-by-play in melee is harder because announcing each attack in real time is hard so you can't be as specific as you can be with other games and flex your words per minute as hard. So Melee commentators just end up taking their time to explain/identify the more complex interactions of the game.

as someone who’s played and commentated and isn’t very good at either, one thing that really bugs me is when someone spends the entire time on commentary going “he could’ve done this” and “oh that was wrong he should’ve done this instead”. i can’t even imagine how much that bothers most players when they watch their sets back.

I love toph commentary. Always says what I'm thinking. I love waff too

Just watch plup restream it’s way better than commentary

I as viewer want just one thing from commentators. Hype and fun. And goddamn most of the commentators in the smash scene fking deliver!

i like quiet sets because i've been playing melee long enough to keep up with everything thats happening.

i feel like the Melee community is just making drama now, like we have online, which my dumbass managed to set up so its possible for the average joe to do, we have tournies with high pays, we have a strong scene, we are good at what we do, we have lots of new players, we have almost everything we've wanted

Great thumbnail lmao

My favorite twitch chat message from my commentary block with sajam at combobreaker was "Oh, didn't know it was bring your son to work day". You'll always catch hands from people if you're not someone they inherently know -- even Yipes gets roasted occasionally by chat if people don't know him. Comes with the biz sometimes, but you have to balance that noise with the people who are your big supporters and cheering you on imo

does this fucking open with Terraria music? my man😂🤝

The Iron Giant is a 1999 American animated science fiction film produced by Warner Bros. Feature Animation and directed by Brad Bird in his directorial debut. It is based on the 1968 novel The Iron Man by Ted Hughes (which was published in the United States as The Iron Giant) and was scripted by Tim McCanlies from a story treatment by Bird. The film stars the voices of Jennifer Aniston, Harry Connick Jr., Vin Diesel, James Gammon, Cloris Leachman, John Mahoney, Eli Marienthal, Christopher McDonald, and M. Emmet Walsh. Set during the Cold War in 1957, the film centers on a young boy named Hogarth Hughes, who discovers and befriends a giant alien robot. With the help of a beatnik artist named Dean McCoppin, Hogarth attempts to prevent the U.S. military and Kent Mansley, a paranoid federal agent, from finding and destroying the Giant.

we do?

A crew battle to settle this: bottom 5 of current top 50 players vs top 8 commentators

I commentated Ultimate Wanted 4 recently, and got a TON of shit from Twitch chat and it hurt cos it's my first time doing an Ultimate major top 8, things ended up getting worse mentally, and it's cos I paid mind to what people said in chat, watched this and I understood things more, a lot of the nerves ended up getting to me cos I paid way too much attention to chat, and not on my performance as a whole this was a good watch, thanks Toph

Honestly I see this shit in other communities all the time

Big love to Walt

the only thing I got out of this video is that sajam spends all of his time not streaming in other twitch chats

I think the only other scene I can think of with high level players as the premier commentators is Dota, especially recently. ALL of the best commentators are 5k mmr minimum, which is better than ~98% of the playerbase or something, with some of them like Blitz or SVG being ex-pro players. Even Cap, who was never a "real" pro, is like 7k mmr or something. I know all competitive esports are complex and hard to learn, but both games definitely have a lot of subtle fast paced things going on with positioning, timings, or just lots of stuff happening at once like team fights or scraps, and a lot of the time, if you only understand the first 3 or 4 layers of whats happening, but you miss the crucial 5th layer, you're looking at the wrong thing entirely or you have the wrong understanding, which makes it easy for people who are better than the commentators skill wise to become annoyed or think to themselves "I could do a better job." I think wanting your commentators to be skilled has some validity, but its also a hard and thankless job with its own skillset and meta to develop, and anyone who voluntarily tries to be a commentator and improve at it is welcome to imo. Full disclosure, I'm not the biggest fan of tdfw and Radar's commentary but I've seen them improve a lot in the last few tournaments alone and I have respect for their hustle. Hope they keep it up. p.s. tdfw if you're reading, I think your commentary would be a bit better if you don't build your sentences to have such a conclusive cadence. melee doesn't have a lot of end points during a game except for stocks being taken, and its sometimes jarring to hear you talk about an interaction with a definitive and conclusive feeling as the game continues to be played past the interaction.

If you're on commentary and chat isn't actively toasting you then you're probably doing a really good job I once got called out by a PGStats writer for having a bad opinion because I said a top fox player (Crush) had a problem with the marth matchup My good man: What matchup do you want me to say they have a problem with when they're a top 20 player and top 5 fox main?

The whole controller thing in melee is kinda whack. As a falco it’s a bummer having my controller fuck up and then I die for it. Idk the game just seems sorta not accessible if I’m not trying to sink a bunch of time and money into it.

In my opinion, it's kinda like... so someone could be an amazing painter or poet or musician or something, but they won't necessarily be able to convey their art and all it means with clarity, to a bunch of different sorts of people... of course they're going to get salty if they see something the casters didn't, but whatever commentary isn't really for the players it's for the fans. I've only ever felt mildly annoyed back in the day, when the bias was sometimes so strong that M2K or Armada could be destroying some Californian player and their play won't be discussed beyond 'that's lame... there's that grab again!' Otherwise players will whine, and sometimes their frustration is probably displaced and wrongfully directed towards the casters. Side note: Agreed that melee commentary is a lot more natural, compelling and (in a way) philosophical VS other esports where they can come across as a bit fake and stiff... this, I think, is the benefit of a decades-long narrative... a longer history bolsters enthusiasm and captivating storylines like nothing else, it's not something that can be rushed or forced.

I’ve been in twitch chat every single tourney and the only people I see twitch chat talking shit on is dark genex and tdfw. And they are actually pretty annoying.

wow!

I definitely think people forget that being even top 200 in the world means you are unbelievably cracked at the game. Certainly crackd enough to give your take on the mic. Also melee commentary is actually the the best commentary in any sport period.

This is messed up. I don't know how you do it, but yall melee commentators are the real goats and make it so easy to tune in and enjoy the game no matter your skill level and actually walk away learning so many things and laugh your ass for a good portion of the stream as well.

I would get shit on by any commentator, and it wouldn't even be close man.

i think tdfw had the large early days phreak feel where he just screams to insuate that something is hype.

Yea you have to be good at a game to commentate it. That's why they only have the all star team commentate for basketball and football.

It's a shame that commentators feel like they have to be so good at Melee. I like it when they know the game well enough to add insightful commentary, but the most important thing to me is that I get to feel like I'm hanging out with a crowd of smash buddies. That's why I find commentators especially important when I'm watching alone.

Personally sometimes I get annoyed when they just start talking to the most unrelated topic imaginable, but that too bring out hilarious moments, depends on the situation

In counter strike, there is a common joke that one of the most beloved commentators, James Bardolph is notoriously horrible at the game and people love him all the more for it

Lovage is the best commenter. Where he been?

It’s why NFL players have a hard time commentating their former teams games.

I find it surprising that Toph felt like he was getting a lot of hate. I've been watching melee for 8 years (before Apex 2015) and I've never seen a single negative thing said about him. (Personally he's my favorite commentators which is why i'm watching this video). In contrast, when most times other commentators gets on the mic (except like scar, vish, phil, hmw), I clearly see people saying to get them off the mic in chat.

Zan

Leffen and Cody were/are the problem.

I hate twitch chat I always turn that shit off when watching melee tournaments. It’s the most toxic shit I’ve seen I don’t know how new commentators put up with it I’d be so demotivated

Think it is worth mentioning that opinions in the community are largely shaped by top players. Hence, if a commenators opinion differs from a popular top player opinion, you are going to get backlash.

Commentating is hard in my opinion. I dont think most people realize that you also sometimes just say stupid shit to fill the void and realize almost immediately that you messed uo

Melee is at its peak when a pro player is with 2 commentators like at summit and way back in the scl.

gotta say i was one of those haters you are talking about back in 2015 lol, but theres nothing personal, its just that everytime i see a new commentator feels like they re just there bc they can become popular (stupid thought) and also you were new, now i can say you are pretty good at it, you really can see whats going on the match deeper than anyone else. And yes you are right lol, but the hate will continue forever, dont stick in it.

I don't know man after just getting into this community recently it seems like smash players just unique . Like I love the game and there's some really chill people but I've also run into some of the most toxic people I've ever encountered in a fighting game.

To make an actual gripe about commentary, rather than just hating on commentators for the sake of it: One of the issues that I believe serious players of the game have with commentary is that it rarely reflects what's actually going on in the minds of the players and what's really happening during a match. Saying something like "mang0 with the back air, shooting lasers, oh he gets the edgeguard!", is accurate commentary on it's face, but these aren't very sophisticated observations about the game. Although, I'll concede going deeper than this on the fly in front of an audience is very difficult because of the pace of melee. Actually talking about the conditioning required to make a mixup work for example, and to illustrate that in a way that's clear to an audience that largely doesn't understand the game beyond the surface is pretty much impossible, but that's what heavily invested mid level players would like to see from commentary, I think, and there are a lot of us. Most players that I know who take the game seriously and are actively trying to improve as players watch old sets and even live melee with the stream muted because the commentary takes away more than it provides. The hype is there for us because we see what the players are doing, we don't need Toph to tell us when a critical moment happens for it to be engaging. For me personally, I wish instead of having replays of combo's after each game we had an analytical type of person with a high level understanding of the game doing John Madden style play by play analysis of important moments or concepts that the players are taking advantage of to win. While we don't have the luxury of having a commercial break's worth of time to fill between each play like you have in football, we do have a lot of time between matches where Toph and Vish are basically doing their best to have a good time and fill the air for the audience which could be utilized for this. I think if one or two good players were doing this alongside the traditional commentary it could bring about a better understanding of how the game actually works for the more casual-competitive portion of the audience, which I imagine is the majority of viewers, and would also satisfy people like myself who really want a deep discussion about the game. There's no reason why two people with drawing tablets and solid understanding of the game couldn't explain why fox doing a tomohawk dashback makes the dash dancing marth whiff a pivot grab in the corner, which then leads to a stock ending combo, and this sort of basic idea is completely lost on the majority of viewers despite the fact that mid+ level melee is mostly made up of these sorts of interactions. This is an issue in basically every fighting game really, there's just not enough time for two people to discuss the game in an exciting way that isn't also very basic, without going on a tangent and ignoring the next 30 neutral interactions which are just as important to the outcome of the match. The people whining about commentary in general though, the reddit crowd, your average NFL viewer, should just be ignored. Trying to appease them is a waste of neurons. But the people who are really invested in the game can definitely be more properly catered to imo.

All of those words just to completely gloss over the real problem with commentators: "Who are we commentating for? Well, we're commentating for... 1) Each other and 2) We're commentating for the fans" -Toph From: this video literally This is literally the problem. Bad commentators are up there for themselves first, not the spectators first. Vanity is the problem. Ego and selfishness is the problem. Telling spectators what to think or your halfwit hypothesis on what a top player's motives are when you can't possibly know that. You can gish gallop the conversation with all the strawmen you want, but the problem is that so many commentators are up there for themselves first and everyone else second. Slime and Ludwig do not have this problem. In the 3s space, Vencabot does not have this problem.

2 things I notice about professional sports commentary vs e-sports commentary. 1. Bias in national competitions. Esports but especially smash has bias towards certain players and/or characters which almost never happens in professional sports. National commentators are good at being even and just loving the game as much while regional commentators show their bias because they are hired to do so. 2. Comments on play vs questioning play. I have noticed in some instances like in smash and umvc3 that commentators comment on what a player should be doing instead asking why they did something else. In professional sports to some degree, I feel like they just wonder why a player does something instead since most of them were never on that level and therefore don’t have perfect knowledge with the situation. Both are an art and not a science but hopefully this can shed some light on some differences and issues

Honestly i love commentators

Game knowledge and awareness is infinitely more important than skill. Being able to do a good job explaining what's happening on screen in real time is an entirely different skill than being able to press buttons well. A commentators job is to be entertaining, and to talk about what's happening in game, none of that requires you to even pick up a controller. Being good will 'generally' make you better at those things, but there are marginal returns beyond basic competence. Understanding situations has more to do with watching a lot than playing a lot. It's similar to why chess players spend most of their time studying past games as opposed to playing practice matches.

The only time i didnt like commentary was when they called Zain "Xan"

The only thing that bothers me is when commentators make wildly incorrect claims about the game mechanics based on a hair trigger occurrence. Some dr mario is getting worked. "Dr. Mario is arguably the worst character in the game." Like he's bad, but not dorf bad. Just feels like misinformation gets spread and it's taken at face value because clout.

If u wanna try commentary u need to study smash summit 11 grands for 90 hours before u should be allowed on the mic

I'm happy I no longer use reddit.

Why do you twitch so much

This is less of a problem now, but even just two years ago, I can't stand when little rage boys have orgasms on mic when a thing happened that I know they have seen before. Like its not serious. Its a good play, not Christ himself. When you max out a mic, thats the sign of an immature person and should be in the crowd, not responsible for calling the match. Also, I didn't like when commentators play is the bigger nerd and pontificate on game stats on players and characters instead of just mainly calling the match. Again, this isn't as much of an issue anymore, but melee is definitely way more guilty of this than ultimate. I know you've seen this. Where, even in top 8, the commentators aren't even watching the match and talking about which character had the best matchup spread etc.

There’s only one thing which annoys me with commentators right now, and it’s when someone is up a lot and they still say “it’s doable tho”. Like zain is about to JV5 the crimson blue and the commentators will be like “yeah don’t count him out yet, still winnable”, like, no it fucking ain’t. Saying so only trivialises actual hype comebacks.

The only time commentators piss me off is when they fellate their favorite top player even to the point of shitting on the other player in the match. They should not be playing favorites during a match.

i've been casually following since like, smashdoc times. I love HMW, Toph, Scar, Prog, all yall great commentators. But. Scandal aside, why do I feel like I'm the only D1 hater? Maybe it's just because he's exiled and nobody talks about him anymore but I swear, every time he would blow out the microphone and scream destruction over some whatever play is just the most antihype shit ever. makes my balls cringe back up into my crotch. DESTRUCTIONNNN okay dude calm down it's a ken combo

Of course this started on Reddit...

I just think new commentators like walt genex etc are super annoying! Nothing personal but i just miss how raw melee used to be. Now its like plain yogurt

Top players are very capable of having obvious blind spots. The idea that if one of them says something it should be taken as fact is foolish. They are of course, a great source of high-level information, and you should always carefully consider their perspectives. But you can definitely disagree with them and be correct.

I used to watch a lot of world of Warcraft esports and aside from automatic jack, in my opinion, most of the professional and expert players were shitty casters. fumbling for words or explaining things either that the players watchers didn't really want to or need to know about or getting too jargonistic and down in the minutiae of things. the best caster was a dude named Rich Campbell who as far as I know was an average player. but he had a great feel for the game, a great voice and was incredibly engaging.

I guess this is an unpopular opinion, but commentators need to stop thinking they’re performing for their own stream at home Stopping in the middle of the set to talk about some random netplay opponent that stomped you. Talking about some kooky hotel room story, while gameplay is being ignored and talked over I want to be able to pour sulfuric acid in my eyes, and still be able to visualize what is happening in the game. Bc the commentators are you know, commentating the events of the set And no I don’t mean just flatly saying “nice back air” Watch any top smash player react to a set being played Notice how all of them say actual interesting tidbits, explain the thought process, explain the interactions. Not some smash fan telling some shitty smash joke and wheezing on the mic fkr the first 2 stocks of a set Seems like some people watch smash sets like it’s a comedy show. I don’t understand why.

What about commentary synergy perhaps? Like its one thing to just pair two good commentators and call it a day like pairing two good top players in doubles but I think one thing that you and Scar showed was synergy, prob because of experience and just you knowing Scar as a good friend and vice versa. Its why you two were always my fav duo despite Scars hot takes sometimes. It reminds me of Pewfat; while really good players on their own, the synergy they had in doubles was the reason they were at the top even during the gods era.

The commentary has sucked lately, Cody will say it hasn't but oddly when he co-streams he complains.

There should be mirror streams without commentary

We can only hear 'WHO WANTS IT MORE' nonsense bs so many times before we stop caring. There are very few commentators who add value to the matches.

My theory is the people who are mad at commentary are always tilted and are literally mad cuz bad, and since they're frustrated in the opponent they just lost to, they look for an exterior thing to yell at and be mad at. I'm gonna talk my shit on commentary and if a top player starts talking shit about me, fuck em, to each their own.

How many times will I hear “nice bair” “you don’t want to be down 2 games” “doc nair” used as an ironic punchline, They meme their commentary tropes to death, Double down top 8 comms were pools level. I think commentary is one the most important parts of melee, so of course people will get upset when it’s subpar

semmler wasn’t a good ow commentator, like he didn’t like the game, and the community didn’t like him or his casting

The issue for me with smash commentary is that there’s no new voices and there hasn’t been for years and there seems to be no way for a new guy to come up. Commentary could also benefit if there was some like sideline reporter that was talking to players live or PreRecorded to air in between/before sets. And if only commentators could be hype without being cringeish. Like imagine if there was a smash equivalent for Kevin Harlan or Mike Breen. Or even a tony romo. Would be next level for watching

junebug is based