@@elshaddollworld3941 It's 10 frames in Smash 4. Ultimate reduced it to 9, yet I still think Smash 4 works better. (probably has something to do with how it registers inputs)
When someone says "approach", what I feel like they mean is "fully commit". I say this because things like drift-back d-air with Falco, for example, is meant to bait/cause a whiff/control space, etc. When I think about "approaching" my mind goes to shield pressure and the like, which can be made safe, but regardless it's a very committal action. You're sitting on their nuts and movement away from them is tough. You have to be precise, which is hard.
Hey Toph, I just wanna say thanks for taking the time to acknowledge and talk about my Borp related question. I honestly didn't think it would get seen and my heart almost jumped out of my chest when it was the first thing I see in your video. I like your insight on the matter and I agree people should probably talk about and focus more on what Borp *is* doing (punishing/awareness) vs what he isn't doing (wave dashing, L-Canceling, etc). Much love and keep up the great work :)
Med student here on opinions on L-canceling. Yes, it adds depth to the game. My problem with it is the rapid, repetitive motion of pressing the trigger button is a recipe for disaster for your hands (carpal tunnel, arthritis, etc). Might be interesting to get Llod on radio melee to talk about it some more, I'm sure he'd have some good incite.
This is actually why I switched to Z cancel. I'm a gigging musician so I have to watch my hands and with Z I can dedicate a finger to only L cancel and grab and the press is shorter. Then I have my other finger dedicated to trigger
Non-med student with a pretty bad RSI here (non-melee related). L-canceling is not a problem for me at all, even less so after I got used to using light presses which are optimal anyway.
Nah wavedashing waveshining is where carpel tunnel is an issue same with any weird grip like claw grip. I doubt its great but if you Z cancel your hand never leaves that you can still hold it "ergonomically" as you can hold a gc controller
There’s a bit of a survivor bias when people talk about how hard melee is. Since the largest voices in the community are top players, you hear a lot less from the people who tried to pick it up and dropped it.
L-canceling is not a good mechanic, especially for the reasons described in this video. Depth is built around the types and range of decisions you can make, but the input surrounding L-canceling do not add to your decision-making process. There is no decision of whether or not to L-cancel since there's no drawback to successfully L-canceling, and removing L-canceling and replacing all normal landing lag with their L-cancel counterparts would make the game simpler without removing any depth whatsoever because the decisions you make are the same. The only difference now is that newer players would be able to enjoy the same game that mid-high level players already enjoy, which is a pure upside because that will help grow a competitive scene. However, I still would never take L-canceling out of Melee, because then it's not Melee anymore. There's so much history behind Melee, and whether it's a good mechanic or not removing L-canceling would take away part of that history.
I LOOOOOOVE the ledge mechanics in melee. Ledge mechanics keep you from getting killed by your opponent in their spawn invincibility. Tired of getting respawn Knee'd or Fsmashed? Camp ledge. It's a necessary evil. If you takeaway ledge camping in melee, you gotta reduce respawn invincibility.
Started with melee, moved to PM, then moved to RoA, now back to participating in P+ brackets as I run the local RoA scene and we share the venue at the same time. Yea both Slap City and RoA shows L canceling is a bad mechanic that isn't needed. It's a pointless barrier of entry. Very minor game tweaks fix any good thing about L canceling. RoA also shows a 6 frame buffer is basically perfect and the way to go. No buffer at all just feels bad. Too much buffer and you get random inputs you didn't intend to do like in Ultimate. Ledges are interesting because in melee, they're extremely flawed. How ever, slap city showed that they can 100% work with a small change. You only get invincibility if you get knocked off stage. Boom, fixed.
L Cancel is a bad mechanic, but it’s too important to the meta of melee to remove it. There’s no reason to bring it back in future games and I’m glad that auto L cancel is starting to become the norm in P+
I think L-Cancelling would be a better mechanic if it had a range of effectiveness based on how close to the landing timing you got. It would probably have a visual effect for a perfect L-cancel also. With the hard fail/succeed model that it currently has, its impact once you get passed the initial execution barrier is pretty minimal, and its inclusion serves to damage hands more than it does to add depth. If it had a range of execution with distinct visual effects for how close you were to the correct timing, it would likely be more satisfying to learn for newer players, and more impactful in the game at a higher level. (Not that I intend this for Melee as it is. Just for future projects.)
It would def boost the skill ceiling up by adding a new level of precision for players to strive for. But I feel like we would run into the problem of people feeling cheated out of a good punish because the game decided that their L-cancelling timing wasn't good enough to allow for it. If we were to expand on the idea of L-cancelling, personally I feel like adding a PERFECT L-cancel mechanic that cuts ALL landing lag if you time it absolutely perfectly on the frame you land could add more depth without obstructing normal gameplay flow. Using Melee as a template, so much of the meat and potatoes of its gameplay is tied to normal L-cancelling, that an added mechanic of PERFECT-cancelling wouldn't get in the way at all of gameplay flow since it doesn't punish players for missing it, and would add a new layer of precision and skill for players to grind for, opening up even crazier (and riskier) combo strings. The issue with L-cancelling causing hand problems is more of a controller issue than it is a game design issue. If Melee had a more ergonomic controller as its standard controller, this point wouldn't even exist because nobody would be experiencing hand pains in the first place. visual effects for good executions sounds cool af though
@@thiswaswurm Main issue is that the buffer system would make it too unreliable and could lead to a lot of accidental shielding/spot dodging on landing.
Slap City has what is easily my favourite ledge implementation. You only get ledge invuln if you get hit prior to grabbing it + you lose it when you let go of ledge meaning no invincible ledgedash.
As Toph said, invincible ledge dash has several aspects to it that make it a really cool technique and one that should remain in the game. Its very good, but not completely incapable of playing around, its hard to do, and it has a massive risk if performed incorrectly. The idea that you can literally die from messing it up is cool af
Frame data just feels bizarre to understand in melee. 2D fighters allow to you to always see your opponent in the same orientation and general trajectory. The animation for moves is usually much easier to distinguish by snapshots of certain frames. Melee though.. characters are jumping around constantly, facing different ways, the camera perspective kind of changes.. so much variability.
I don't think L canceling should be removed because it is a part of melee's design at this point, but I do wish we could have gotten a legitimate Melee 2 that removed the mechanic. My biggest complaint isn't actually the most common one. I don't feel like the fact that it creates an artificial skill floor that new players have to spend a lot of time overcoming is actually a massive downside. My biggest issue with L-canceling is actually just hand health. I don't think the mechanic adds enough depth to the game relative to the amount of strain it creates in your hands over long term play. Ultimate is a chill game, but it just doesn't feel like Melee the same way other games like Rivals of Aether does. Rivals of Aether doesn't tick all those Melee boxes either, so I just stick to Melee and PM knowing and accepting that I can't play for longer sessions anymore due to my hands.
I think frame data in melee is just as relevant it just has so much more variance that you can't know the frames for every situation. So it's not worth studying in the same way outside of very common interactions.
I think L cancelling should have a downside, like if you L cancel it cuts the frames in half but if you get hit during those frames you receive 25% more dmg and knockback
Why should you be punished for hitting an L cancel you already get punished for missed aerials. And you get punished for missing your L cancel the landing lag is usually enough for a punish
@@h3ck774 It adds a reason not to L-cancel. I think that is the biggest problem in my book, in a video game if you should always do something it should be automatic. Or else why not artificially raise the skill ceiling by making smash attacks take half as long if you tap the taunt button.. etc. it is just adding required tech with no purpose since you always want the outcome. But imagine the hype of purposely missing an L cancel because you knew a punish was unavoidable. Then the rock paper scissors of going for a better punish because you know their missed L-cancel will take longer.
I loved the video, this type of interactions with the community are really entertaining and it's kind of a peek of how the community sees the game too, specially to people who aren't really IN the community, but play the game and watch tournaments every now and then.
as a mid level melee player and mid level ult player, Fox is one of the closest things to a melee char in ult. I think it would be badass to see light play melee, and it would be cool to see how he applies ledge mechanics from ult to it.
Woah I'm really late but I was super hyped to see I made it into the video! Thanks for answering my question, you even brought up the exact situation I was thinking about when I wrote the tweet with the falco dair on shield. Sick video, Toph!
My biggest issue with L canceling is that it's never optimal to not do it. It doesn't really add any decision making for the person who has to perform it beyond just timing it correctly, and most of the meaningful gameplay it adds is on the opponent to punish failed execution. If every aerial in the game had half as much landing lag and there was no L-canceling, the game fundamentally wouldn't be THAT different. To a similar extent part of my issue with it is people describing it as one of the things which contributes to the games signature speed when in reality, it's existence reduces the games default speed. Moves probably would have just been made faster if they didn't have L-cancelling.
Nah because you usually get alot more frames to do an action whenever you complete the LC, auto cancel or like u said half would change alot of things, comobs and speed more likely
As light said (according to toph), I think it’s more about keeping the hard hitting moves in check. People already hate on the game for being a spacie fest, now imagine if all of their best moves were even easier to pull off. On top of this, you have edge-cancel and auto-cancel which cut lag way harder than l-cancel, and don’t require a button press.
since im waiting for the video to load I just wanna say L canceling can be done well, its just making it a requirement for ur moves to not take 30 trillion years to come out makes it cringe Slap city has L canceling but all it does it make u keep ur air momentum while in landing lag
I agree that it shouldn’t be a current mechanic in other games, but for melee I truly think it works great. It adds a level of balance when you consider auto-cancel, a mechanic which does not require an input, cuts lag even harder than l-cancel, and can be done with every move. However it relies on spacing and timing the move itself. You can link a shine out of falco’s short hop bair like this, but it requires you to do it early without fastfall, meaning it gets easily beaten by shield and often punished if you miss
On another note, no one wants to play a game with characters as fast and hard-hitting as melee if every move was a simple decision. No one wants to be beaten by the guy who spams the same three moves over and over again after picking up the game last week
In retrospect L/Z cancelling was never as great as people think. There's no real reason L/Z cancelling exists and it doesn't really affect decision making on any significant measure. It does feel pretty good though, but that's all it is. It's a dopamine button.
The better you get at melee I feel like the more you like stuff like not having a buffer, insane drift, light shielding, tech chase grabs, ledge mechanics (with a ledgegrab limit) but the one thing I still don't enjoy is having to L-cancel everything, just because any time you miss one it feels bad and on the contrary It's not an accomplished if I don't miss one for an entire set. It does have positive overall impacts of making aerials not as spamable, but in the modern melee landscape that's a bit overblown for players that have played for years.
L-cancelling imo, is absolutely a good mechanic, just not a very friendly one. It increases the skill ceiling for competitive folks by adding a new level of depth to execution. But for casuals and beginners, it's an unnecessary extra step to have to keep up with just to have fun with friends. I think it's very fortunate that L-cancelling was attached to Melee specifically of all games. The existence of it doesn't get in the way of playing the game as it might in ones that try to center their entire gameplay around it because Melee wasn't designed to rely on the successful execution of precision-based tech in order to be played it normally. There's still a game to play without any of the cool advanced tech options, just as much as there's a game to play with them included in.
Toph, you're not understanding the camping question. This doesn't apply to Fox, it applies to slower characters who don't really have those crazy options Fox has in approaching.
Fox is just an extreme example. If you're not approaching then you're reacting. If you're reacting you get can get tricked by a mix-up and get punished. But does that sum out to being more advantageous or more disadvantageous than if you were approaching? Well, that depends on the situation. Not just matchup, but stage, position, percentages, etc. all have an effect. Shit's too situational for such a blanket statement. That being said, it IS worth knowing what the niche situations are where it's obviously worse to approach. Just like it's worth knowing what percent your up-air out of shield can kill characters from the ground, from platforms, etc..
I mean for what it's worth, my favorite ledge mechanics out of any platform fighter come from Rivals of Aether, because it doesn't have them. The thing that saddens me is that originally smash wasn't going to have ledges either iirc (and also that rivals 2 is gonna have ledges whyyyyyy).
on the discussion of ledge mechanics, i want to bring up slap city, which has my favorite example of how to handle it. so first of all, its ledge hogging instead of ledge trumping, BUT you only get invuln if you haven't landed since you were last hit, be it from being hit in the air or launched from the ground, and you only get invuln on your first ledge grab per instance off stage. in addition to this, if you airdodge onto ledge, you forfeit you invuln even if the other condition was met. as much as i do love the ledgeplay that can happen in melee, i also see the degenerative play that it enables as well. at least of any of the single invuln instance games i think this is the best system, and though i prefer it over pm's system, i too think that dev teams solution is also very excellent, and preserves much of the good that comes with melee ledges, whilst mitigating the bad.
I don't really get the appeal of L-Cancelling. I don't really know what the difference is between having to press L in a mildly specific but not really that specific timing whenever you land and just having less laggy aerials. The second one puts more of the impetus on decision making, and I guess it just speaks to me as a player enjoying the game more when the brunt of the result is placed on the decision-making of the players.
melee ledge mechanics but you only get GALINT on the first ledge grab like ult would be perfect edit: toph just brought it up, only getting ledge invuln from the first ledge grab would be sick
I think this is theoretically cool but needs a tweak. Maybe after 3 ledge grabs or something. Imagine trying to get off the ledge against marth with no ledge invuln at all. Mfs losing stocks getting their ledgedashes execution tested already
To me, L cancelling is a TERRIBLE mechanic, as it is effectively an arbitrary skill floor increase, that makes a next to no affect on the skill ceiling, and I refuse to learn some instinctive basic muscle memory that shouldn't be a mechanic in the first place. Which is why, despite everything that I love about the game (and the fact that unlike Ultimate marth is actually good and worth investing time into instead of just getting you to the inevitable "i would've won with lucina" (although I still enjoy sm4sh/ult falco enough to play the game still)), I refuse to play melee. To reiterate: it increases the skill floor, it does not increase the skill ceiling. That's the problem with it. That's why I don't like it. But I do respect the melee community enough to not care if that ever changes. Your game is great, you guys are great, and you can play your game the way you want to. My opinion shouldn't matter, and I'm not going to try to act like it does. I'm just gonna wait to have a game that's right for me.
I completely agree. I think we should try to lower execution barriers as much as possible. I think part of why it’s still accepted is because most of the largest voices in the community are top players who aren’t affected by it much meanwhile there are a ton of low level players who dropped the game because of it.
@@Estradiol_Gaming I don't mind raising the skill floor if it gives a meaningful increase to the skill ceiling, but L cancelling doesn't do that, so to me it's only a negative to the game. But yeah, most people that already play melee in the already large scene aren't affected by it at all. Especially top players.
>it does not increase the skill ceiling This is your misconception. The timing required to lag cancel successfully differs depending on multiple factors. You can't just train your muscle memory to hit x frames after you throw your attack out. It takes skill, knowledge, and sometimes forethought or reads to get the timing right. This is something you pick up on intuitively if you practice lag cancelling. The first thing I learned was how to lag cancel Mario's forward air. I got pretty consistent at hitting it, but when I tried to put it into play I still had trouble. Because the timing I practiced didn't work when I actually hit somebody. When I got comfortable with accounting for different timings I still had consistency problems because sometimes I thought I would hit but didn't, or vice versa, or likewise but with shields.
@@Deadgye The thing is, I think we can agree to disagree here, because to me, that's increasing the skill floor by doing that - not the ceiling. It's increasing the requirement for me to play optimally, not increasing the potential for me to make creative use of my skill to greater success.
@@tenacity25 You're conflating what skill ceiling means. A skill ceiling is the maximum potential. If you're not playing 100% optimally then you haven't hit the skill ceiling. Increasing the requirement for you to play optimally is by definition increasing the skill ceiling. I'm not sure if I can figure out how to describe the actual reasoning for your dislike. Is it that there's no reason not to do it and therefore it can't contribute to increasing potential mindgames? Do you also equally dislike mashing hypers in MvC? (Or is that too simple so it gets a pass?)
That first question is actually really interesting because i actually do this, if im against some crack head fox thats teching around like dark, i just purposefully play slower and just punish where i can to break there momentum, and it genuinely fucks some peoples flow up really hard
The thing with L cancelling is that it makes it so you can’t mindlessly throw out aerials without intending to in the beginning. It forces you to pay attention to the engine and develop game sense. Often when new players are learning they look like baby deer walking and stumbling. Later they start to move fluidly and when you realize how difficult it is to effectively time everything high level players are doing , one comes away with more respect for the skill involved. There is a mastery of the engine that it promotes.
@@ono446 There is a different element with Melee in particular. The fact the game is analog makes the particular timing and spacing often times unique. Drift, Light shield vs hard shield, power shield, Sdi, Di, Knockback at different spacing. It actually matters what part of the hit box you use since it changes the property of the hit stun and angle where the opponent will be sent. Light shield exists on a spectrum from full to almost a hard shield. Crouch cancelling allows one to take a hit on purpose, and all characters have it so it’s not like super armor. All of these factors change the timing of the l cancel. Since one is forced to l cancel you are forced to pay attention otherwise you will be punished hard by others who are paying attention. You know every matchup in the game and have a plan for each matchup , but lose to small tricky engine knowledge your opponent has. That is what separates the high level players from their rest. Its the mastery of the engine, the same way a basketball players master dribbling and movement.
@@MarthMain complexity isn't the same as something being good. You're saying it separates skill levels but I think that's the issue. You shouldn't be required to memorise the timing of a button press for every possible situation. There's a lot of similarities to rpg's where you just need to grind for ridiculous amounts of time just to access the rest of the game. I think anyone should be able to succeed in a game if they have solid fundamentals instead of being hit with an archaic system.
@@ono446 If anyone could perform everything then it wouldn’t be impressive. You have to take L cancelling into account when you select an option because some are harder to time than others. That means your timing has to be excellent. L cancelling promotes excellence in execution. There are things people have access to because either they are gifted with fast hands and excellent timing or they practice a lot to be able to execute things others can’t. It’s part of what balances melee. Fox and Falco would be undisputed best in the game if not for that mechanic and their combos would be way less impressive. To say l cancelling has no merit is to miss the point of it entirely.
@@MarthMain mechanical ability is by far the least impressive thing about fighting games. This mentality is what causes players like hbox to not be respected, I disagree with mentality
If Lag cancelling was a consistent offset input, it would be bad. What makes it not bad is that the timing changes depending on if you whiff or hit, depending on if you hit them or their shield, depending on when in your move you hit them, depending on where you're both positioned when you hit them, depending on what move you may have hit them with. And if you let yourself get overzealous you might accidentally prevent yourself from being able to tech for a number of frames. And if you try to spam it then it doesn't work because there's a retry lockout CD. (Or was that techs only?)
It is really important how you DEFINITELY pay a price for going for ledge dashes. As a marth main do I wish I had REAL ledgedash, some way to get up off the ledge? Absolutely. But I also almost never SD, whereas if the fox is even a little bit scared, they will give up AT LEAST 1 stock per set to failed ledgedash.
I like ledge hogging I'm indifferent to grabbing the ledge from above only I don't like invincibility refresh on the ledge As an ultimate player, (this was even worse in sm4sh) ledge trapping just overtakes edgegaurding overtime and that just isn't as fun for me.
I'm also an ultimate player, and played in smash 4. 100% agree. My favorite thing in smash games is edgeguarding, unfortunately though, the meta rn kind of revolves around ledgetraps and corner pressure. It requires a lot of discipline and patience, which is a skill in and of itself, but is definitely less exciting and a little less fun. Totally get where you're coming from, I think it's a common sentiment. Ledge hogging is a super cool mechanic from a spectator POV! I'm not sure how players feel about it, but it looks like it makes edgeguarding more relevant/reliable to score kills.
As a player, edge hogging is extremely sick and by no means the only option to take a stock. Timed regrab->invincible back air is a classic. Instantly jumping to get a high aerial is also fun to pull off since it’s usually a read on the other player. Even when I’m the one recovering I respect the other players options and have to use every trick at my disposal to bait them into messing up, though ill admit I’m a little sick of getting gimped by marth since I’m a falco (which has nothing to do with ledge hogging btw)
to me edge guarding is the most fun / interesting thing about melee. it's what made it so cool to watch imo i was hooked on watching m2k just edgeguard people to infinity without failing a single input. there are downsides like toph mentioned but overall i think the ledge in melee is a good thing and allows for amazing edgeguard interactions that you do not get from other smash games (other than project m).
Dear New Players and Old Players: Never Forget that you can always buffer jump out of shield and shieldstun with C Stick UP! And that it helps you now more than ever in the online Slippi era. Same goes for C-Stick LEFT RIGHT & DOWN for roll and Spotdodge. All four grant you these options on their first possible frame. You still will need to time anything after that though. When you get good at buffering jump you will find yourself landing punishes far more than you could before! Like a quick Falcon Falco or Marth Down air after you shield a dash attack. Like a simple L or R+C-Up then C-Down will do the job! There are also many more things you can buffer in Melee but these take the cake for most important to remember.
I think in the context of melee it's better to have L cancelling than not, but the issue with it isn't even that it's "not fun" or "extra useless actions", it's that there's no real choice in it. It's not like I get to make a decision in whether I l-cancel or not, I don't get any benefit from not doing it in a situation, it doesn't make interesting gameplay. I either do it, or my move's unsafe and I get punished.
Love how melee players talk about approaching... its a little bit funny actually. It's a game where you have fully symmetrical movement, but shittons of neutral options just get described as approach mixups or something to that effect. I think this is probably due to melee giving players a bad combination of three things: 1, you die if they touch you so people are afraid to walk forward even though you can't be whiff punished for walking forward; 2, many attacks are unsafe on shield or hit in melee, which leads into dying; 3, melee gives you a lot of advancing attacks that cover a large portion of the screen.
I have an alternative ledge grab limit rule that might be worth testing. U can grab the ledge a maximum of 5 times (possibly a better number) before touching the ground or platform again
1:45 I frequently beat more "skilled" players on Slippi through superior spacing and more economical play -- not doing any unnecessary jumping or whatever. So many players on Slippi learn all this "movement" without knowing why they apply it. When I see some sort of speed demon flying from platform to platform, I tend to just wait them out and wavedash back to punish their advance. I tend to beat them on the edge a lot. Of course, I try to work on my movement to become a better overall player. But too mant players view tech skill as ends rather than means. If you don't know why you're doing [ x ], reconsider why you're doing it.
I know what pivots are now, I thought commentators were talking about the marth’s CC input right before f smash, but it was the cool movement before the CC
Gotta tell you rn chief the #1 thing stopping me playing melee is L-cancel It just feels painful to have to press another button to not trip over your shoelaces every single goddamn jump
I think melee's execution of L canceling is massively flawed. If they streamlined it and put it on a standard controller it could work much better. 10 hours of drawing doesn't give a fraction of the stress on my hands as practicing L canceling on gc for 10 minutes. If you're not devoted to this game you're likely to be fine with playing at a disadvantage than learn this mechanic
Careful when talking about frame advantage in the context of moves being cancelled into each other. In the situation you discuss, the frame advantage of Testament f.S doesn't apply because that refers to a situation where Testament lets the entire recovery of their f.S play out. When you cancel into the fireball, you take the recovery of f.S out of the equation. What you're looking at here is that the difference between the BLOCK STUN of Testament f.S and the startup of their fireball is greater than the 11f that Ram's f.S starts up in.
I think of L-Canceling like dribbling in basketball. Its a not really a necessary mechanic, but adds a layer of technicality to the game. Would Basketball be the same without dribbling?
I'm an ult player. I used to play Melee a bit. I think ult would be a better game if we hevily trimmed down the buffer system and add L canceling in place of auto cancels, with an 11 frame buffer to land and could maybe be adjusted later or something.
Ledge mechanics are great in melee although sometimes it seems a bit too good where you get up from ledge 5 years before the opponent reaches it and they still don't snap to it. L cancelling i think is a bad mechanic it adds nothing besides pointless apm, doesn't require much thinking and just is more stress on the hands for something that should be automatic
L-cancelling adds a little more depth to the game, though. You can hold your shield at different heights to mess with your opponent's L-cancel timing, which I think is pretty litty.
L-canceling is in my opinion an amazing mechanic in conjunction with the tech lockout frames and getup options being just barely reactable for most characters. Tech chasing and reading getup options is such a wonderful part of the game, and the fact that everyone is coming down with a trigger press when they land with aerials creates so many more "missed" tech situations if they get hit with a move unexpectedly then can't tech that landing because of the lockout. Knockdowns would happen way less often if L-canceling wasn't in the game.
About you comments on frame data value in melee, do you think it’s fair to say that characters that don’t have as good a shield pressure game need to know their frame data a bit better though? Idk just a thought
Obviously most people that play melee seriously at this point like L-canceling, but I think it’s a ridiculous mechanic. The game would be far better without it. Unpopular opinion of course
A comparison a would like to make about L-cancel, Is that for example the first MOBA I ever played was Mobile Legends, and then i found out how important It Is in LOL to last hit Minions, while in ML it is not as important, my first thought was how unnecessary It was, and then after some thought i realized it does add some depth of competitive play. That is kinda how i think Ultimate players view L-cancelling when they first know about It.
Imo, L canceling is actually a good and necessary mechanic, and I would include it in a game if I made a platform fighter. Execution tests as a balancing feature (similar to ledgedash) are actually genius.
I disagree so much. It raises the skill floor but does nothing to the skill ceiling. IMO it’s bad game design as it only pushes away less skilled players from getting into the game, while having little to no effect on how the game is played at a high level.
The one thing about Ult's mechanics that I do like is that you get a maximum of 6 regrabs before you have to return to stage. Granted, a ledge grab limit like the community implemented basically solves the issue of planking AND allows you to ledge stall to time out respawn immunity so idk if what I mentioned solves any issues that can't be solved with other methods.
Without watching the video, algo comment, I do think L canceling is iffy, but I don’t like the ledge mechanic it’s sort of like Ice climbers, if we have ledgehogging we don’t edgeguard in more creative ways. Edgeguarding with moves is way more flashy and cool compared to holding ledge. That’s my take.
If we don’t have ledgehogging characters like sheik and marth would be impossible to edgeguard, and we would miss out on those interesting flowcharts of holding ledge and punishing up b recovery.
Without ledge hogging those flashy edge guards really don't work. They work as mixups. If all fox can do to edge guard a Marth is jump off stage he's gonna die a lot.
Have you played or watched either game? Look at match footage of Ult and Melee and tell me which one of them is "edgeguarding with moves" lol. You often have to do both of these for ledge-hogging to even be viable. Edgeguarding offstage is literally only a thing in Melee and is a horrible option in ultimate (snapping, up-b's having stupid hitboxes / invuln)
I definitely think Rivals of Aether does ledges the best by simply not having them. Ledges completely halt the flow of the game in a really weird way and RoA skirts around that completely with some of the most interesting recovery and edge guarding in the genre.
@@cebo494 Yeah but you have to be able to be actionable after airdashing to make it viable. That shit would make for some NUTTTY ass combos in Melee, I'd love to see a magicscrumpy vid on that. Rushdown Revolt ass airdashes :o
Toph this is entertaining and everything but lately it seems like you just pick both sides of an issue and never actually commit to one and in the end you've basically gotten nowhere I love you, dont take this the wrong way
