Why So Many Magic: The Gathering Cards Are Getting Banned | Dies To Removal Episode 26 

UPDATE: This is the last of the Dies To Removal that were filmed "In The Before Times" and with the current crisis, it may be SOME TIME before I can fly Vince back out to film more. Are people okay with some "Social Distancing" episodes of Dies To Removal in the meantime? In other words, some "tele-conference" filmed episodes. Would you still watch? What topics would you be interested in?

All I’ve got is “We didn’t playtest this at all.” Oh I don’t need anymore standard decks. 😂🤣😂🤣

"I don't need any more Standard decks." Ha. Also that game is real and it's fun

"Do you have any trades?" Expects cards. Pulls out entire decks. WHO DOES THAT!

"The only thing I've got is 'We Didn't Playtest This at All'" "Oh, I don't need any more standard decks" Not sure if funny or sad.. but definitely hilarious!

Professor sitting alone with a bunch of empty tables is honestly a heartbreaking image :(

Constant bans killed Pioneer in my community. I work at an LGS and soooo many people were excited to build when Pioneer was announced. Well, as opposed to what would have happened if there was a preemptive banlist, the weekly bans terrified the people trying to build decks and they all eventually quit, saying they'd wait until the ban lists stopped. Well, they kept going so long that the hype died down and all except 1 or 2 players decided that the risk of building a deck and getting a key card banned so quickly wasn't worth it, and chose to simply play the formats they already participated in and forget about pioneer.

"Modern Merfolk?" "No." Ded.

Mark Rosewater once described the perceived “power creep” as synonymous with “Escher’s Stairway”. They would lower the power in some areas while increasing power in another (ex. reprinting single-target Lightning Bolt in standard, not printing mass-removal Wrath of God). But now there is legitimate power creep across the board, which causes more frequent bans, more chase cards, more expensive decks, and a bigger financial loss to those players if their deck is banned.

"what the hell is a rampaging ferocidon?" my reaction exactly

"I forgot Brawl was a format." You and everyone, Prof.

Since Hasbro took over, they have had wotc push power levels into stratosphere to sell packs, started selling "singles" for approximately market value(alt art walkers, lairs), and released the ~$30 collector's packs. This is executives trying to raise numbers and profit for shareholders, and some creative devs trying and failing to stop a forest fire.

This was recorded pre-Ikoria spoilers - so is hilarious when they are talking about power creep - I'm like 'you ain't seen nothing yet bro'

Unpopular opinion: STOP MAKING GOOD 3 CMC OR LESS PLANESWALKERS.

These are my favorite thing. Since the nation is isolated, these conversations are literally the most entertaining content that I consume. Love them! Keep them coming!

"We didn't play test this at all!" "Oh, I don't need any more standard decks." LMFAO!

That picture with Prof sitting alone was so upsetting. I can't imagine how soul crushing that was.

2019 was a perfect argument for Pithing Needle in Standard.

Power creep has never been what got me in the seat for standard. It has always been the intrigue of interesting worlds and interesting mechanics. Its the synergy of cards on a basic level. Not the synergy between a few cards and deck formats. I played innistrad because the horror theme was awesome. I played ravnica because I wanted to play my guild till I died. I played khans because I though the tribes and triple color playability was amazing. I was so excited for guilds for example because the new guild mechanics were back and I could come support a guild. I miss the full triple set world blocks. Even theros was cool because of the theme.

When you make a product specifically for 1 format (hogaak) and then it gets banned from that format, you're clearly not doing your homework :(

not all 2019 was bad. IMO pre war of the spark was one of the best standards i have ever experienced : mono white, mono red, mono blue, sultai explore, izzet phoenix, mardu aristocrats, bant reclamation, esper control, esper hero . ALL of these were top tier decks

"Do you think they're pushing cards willing to ban them later" *looks at fiend artisan* Idk fam idk

Releasing pushed cards, letting them dominate and wreck the format for a while, and banning them when the new set with pushed cards comes out and pack sales fall. Guess the tcg: Magic the Gathering, or Yu-Gi-Oh?

Damn you got over half a million subs now!? I remember subbing to you waaay back when you had like 10k. I think it was one of ur vids about what sleeves to buy :D Congratz man!

I miss playing Magic cards with actual people. I really am not enjoying playing Magic cards over the computer.

Honestly up until 2019 I never expected power creep to be a big problem in magic. To me it was a proud comparasion to a lot of games that magic had such a flat power curve over time. Now I am worried the next few years will go the route of many other games where every new release obsoletes just a tonne of earlier product that used to be meta.

this is really interesting, as someone who doesn't play competitive formats, to listen to, to understand what the bans mean to the people who play. Thank you for the very informative listen. and on a diffrent note: as someone who cracks packs for a bit of fun every now and again, just to see more of the newer cards, it was kinda wild when a few weeks into theros I cracked an oko from one of the eldraine packs at my store. i'm not one that really sells cards, but there was that thought of "i knew people that spent 40-50 bucks on this a few months ago". it's wild to think about.

One of the best criticisms of Yu-Gi-Oh I have ever seen was in If the Emperor Had a Text to Speech Device "The only thing intracte about this game is it's ban list."

It's interesting that the Professor brings up the Transformers TCG here in the discussion of "the face cards/important characters should be super good" sub-section of this discussion since it's been my understanding that the design team on that game has been managing the power levels there pretty well for the time being. Decks focused on obscure or unpopular characters tend to be as viable as those based on cards for the well-known characters, with some variance.

Magic players: “Wizards is banning my deck on this format! Yugioh players: “First time here?”

Come on Professor! Watch the low blows. I wasn't ready for that "we didn't play test these cards" joke.

Please do make tele-conference episodes, I need more content to watch to keep from getting bored in quarantine.

I actually came to magic because in Yu-Gi-Oh link was invented and made my lightsworn xyz turbo deck worthless, a deck I build over an entire year, after link occurred I rage-saled my entire collection and went to magic (still sometimes miss it, but I am happy in general here :)

Thanks for another amazing episode prof! I can’t begin to explain how much these videos have helped me, not only in magic but in my life. These videos are a reason I’m still alive. So I repeat, -Thank- -You-

That opening skit was more flexing with all the sweet deck boxes you have than anything else...and that last joke, taking full broadside at standard!

"Brexit???"

Pleasant Kenobi: "That obviously hoses x, y and zed." Me: "What is a zed?"

What the professor said about the lgs and splinter twin banned. When I first got into modern I build birthing pod and I finished the deck and it was banned like 2 weeks later

The anecdote the Prof tells about splinter twin and the crowds at his lgs reminded me about Mishra's workshop. it's an absolute powerhouse but it can never be restricted because many people play only that. They play "shops" or nothing at all. and eventhough those people can make any deck they want, its not what they want. If workshop goes, 15% of the player base goes with it, and vintage can't take that hit, being as unaccesable as it already is...

Prof. Some weeks, I can't find the time to listen to the entire podcast. But I ALWAYS make sure to catch the skit at the beginning. They are really fun.

You guys have a really good chemistry and the discussions are of the up most quality

See, my opinion on static effects on Planeswalkers is that they're generally fine, but shouldn't be hate pieces (one-sided or not). Things like Liliana or Ugin or the new 6 mana Chandra are all fine. Narset and Teferi are exciting to play with, but probably not an example of successfully implementing a new mechanic. But Domri Anarch of Bolas? Not a problem.

13:37 This is why I watch Dies to Removal. These guys aren't just making noise, they obviously think about this.

Okay that intro was just fuckin good. Your guys' comedic chemistry is great, I'll have to catch up on this in quarantine.

There's a level of irony in the fact that Oko would have been pseudo nerfed with the release of Throne of Eldraine simply because flicker decks would have become much more prevalent. Thassa in theory could have gotten elked but how many times do you see someone build the new God decks with the intention of actually winning by swinging with them other than maybe Heliod. Thassa could have just sat as a 4 mana enchantment that could end phase flicker any target that got oko-ed. Then all that's left is to simply deal with Oko via one of the many banishment effects that came with the set.

in these last sets there has always been a card where I would tell myself "this card is objectively stronger than this older card of mine and just has to go on my deck". Example: return to nature is an objectively better card than naturalize and thre was other cards like them.

Brian: " I don't wanna talk about individual card bans" Spastic Brit Canoli: "yea ok but... HERES A LIST OF SPECIFIC BANS OVER THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF" Mid context this is hilarious, full context, thanks for the data set.

There's one acronym for why so many cards have been banned in 2019 and 2020 that wasn't mentioned at all in the podcast: FIRE.

It's simple, they put out insane cards to sell packs and when enough time passes, they ban them.

Prof, these opening gags are getting better and better! Thanks for maintaining uploads during quarantine!

this is really fun to watch, good conversation. thank you

I think the major area where they are going so wrong is not by making cards that are powerful because they do what they do really well, but because they are building cards that do a little bit of everything/ are designed to negate the natural downsides associated with their effects. Ramp used to be an effect where you would trade a card for access to more mana, so you could play something big, but it made you more vulnerable to running out of steam, and you traded early game initiative. Ramp no longer requires you to trade a card for access to more mana, because GS and Uro replace themselves. Uro replaces itself, gains life to mitigate the tempo lose, and gives you a big creature for later. Growth spiral is instant, so you don't have to commit to ramp and potentially leave yourself open; you can hold up counter magic, then cast it after your opponent has played. Fae gets around the traditional trade off for running hate cards, because now you don't have to draw them in irrelevant match ups. I can play a big mean green 4/4 for 4, but now I don't have to commit to it and let my opponent have a turn to react. Even cards that aren't exactly setting standard alight seem to have efforts to let players escape natural downside. Treacherous blessing has the 'draw a bunch of cards' upside, and the 'lose life when you cast a spell' downside, then they added an extra bit of text making it easier to escape the downside. WHY? Was draw 3 for 3 in black not good enough? These self sufficient cards take away interaction for both you and your opponent. I don't have to balance card draw, threats and ramp when designing my deck because now I can have them all in a single card. Fixed Spelling.

"They want to print things that are more wild and out there in green and other colors" OBJECTION!... They still don't want to give white anything that's phenomenal like they do with the other colors.

I come from Yu-Gi-Oh! ... trust me It gets worse. You could actually build entire decks with the amount of banned cards in that game. Let's hope it doesn't get there

I still think it is funny that the MTG designers on Oko were mentioning that in play testing the idea of turning opponents stuff into elks was not even thought of... LMAO

I always find it funny to hear people talk about the "combo winter" as this dire event that almost broke the game. To me it was the golden era of magic. Decks like Academy Blue and Sabre Bargain are actually what drew me into the game. The idea that you could design such powerful decks was just so appealing to me. Academy, Bargain, Broken Jar, Tinker.. you had so many insanely powerful decks to play with and so much stuff happening every turn. I actually started playing Type 1.5 primarily as a way to recapture some of the feeling of the Type 2 format of that era,

“Haha money machine go brrr” -wizards of the coast

"I have enough standard deck" "It's not wednesday!" Best moments

Im so interested to listen to this despite having no clue whats going on. I just got into EDH and standard right before the world stopped being social, so i still have no clue any understanding of power level, or even how to build a good deck. thanks for the content.

Thank you guys so much for talking about these issues! I really hope people (of your notoriety) will continue to analyze and talk about what is happening with MTG design trends as of late so we can get to the bottom of this and make Standard, (and therefore Magic), great again. You guys, along with others, (like Saffron Olive), are really the voice of the community now. My friends and I have almost completely quit Standard over the past year or two. We all mostly agree that we want it to go back to how it was between Khans block > Shadows block. It seems that there has been a major shift in design philosophy since then. It feels like when R&D makes sets now, they are pre-building / pre-establishing what cards/strategies we should play. That used to not be the case. Yes, there have always been cards that are stronger and better than others, (and there always will be), but never to this degree. It really feels like there is no such thing as creativity and brewing in Standard anymore and it is very sad. I honestly have a lot more I want to say but this is too long already lol....

Why wasn't Field of the Dead made legendary? Lands that can continuously create creature tokens should be limited to one on the field like Kher Keep.

There's no worse feeling than opening a pack and saying, "What's my rare? Ohp, it's banned, and so is this uncommon, and two commons." Or looking through the Ikoria spoilers and going, "That's broken. That'll be banned within a week. That's gone in Standard. That's gone in Pauper. Oh hey look, it's that card that's already been banned in 3 formats before the set is even purchasable." That's not a world I want to play Magic in. In an ideal game, the only bans that exist are for cards that no one could possibly foresee being an issue. It certainly shouldn't be a weekly thing for Christ's sake. Who cares if the cards are stronger if you can't play any of them?

The point you are missing at 46:20, Vince: It is somewhat simple to spot potential combos (especially for alternate win cons). In the case of Thassa's Oracle: "Either pump up my devotion OR reduce the number of cards in my library". You can't easily cheat on your devotion, but a search for "exile library" in Pioneer-legal sets brings up the Inverter quite quickly. This is possible

We Didn't Playtest This At All is such an underappreciated gem! Loved the reference

I think Oko was a flat out mistake, that second ability should have been a minus ability.

I think lutri is a very good example of wizards being fine with a card that they admit would need to be banned in commander

The only acceptable response to being offered NES double dragon is a succinct, enthusiastic yes. Well done Vince

Brian, ‘Dies to Removal’ is some of the best MtG content on RU-vid. I always enjoy the discussions between you and Vince, the fact that the ideas both you and Vince share are well thought out and eloquently worded only add to my enjoyment of the co-content. TL;DR: I would love to see more content.

Also, just refunding one card from banning it can still make players lose out. If that one card kills the deck then you may be stuck with a ton of cards you got to make that deck that are no longer useful you wont get refunded for.

Wotc banning "control" decks in modern and legacy was a huge mistake in philosophy of format health.

lol "I have 'We Didnt Play Test This At all" "Oh no I dont need more standard decks" is such a good line

I feel like we do not give enough attention to the damage caused by removing block sets. When standard was based around three block sets, players had to understand that even if they were playing a set that currently had powerful cards, that eventually they would have to lean into the mechanisms from the upcoming sets to optimize their cards. With only two blocks it was nice to at least see some theme continue through, but you started to see the raise of just playing powerful cards and now I feel that with no real blocks at all, there is little reason outside of drafts to really invest in the new theme or mechanics of a set and instead you might as well find those power cards and work off of them. Similarly MTG is now trying to cater to so MANY formats that it actually takes away some of what made those formats so interesting in the first place. Pauper, Tiny Leader, and even EDH were originally designed to force players to find creative new uses for cards. Now you have cards like Lutri, the Spellchaser, and Fierce Guardianship that belong in basically every deck that fit that color. Companions shouldn't even be in Commander! There is no side board, that's a bummer, now you can't have a companion use his companion ability, that's fine.. There have been tons of cards that don't work or make sense in Commander. You don't need to make every card powerful for every format! Focus on a healthy cycle of standard cards that balance within themselves and with regard to the older powerhouse cards, and eventually people will find reasons to use those cards in modern, pioneer, and commander, but when you build cards that are going into standard with the idea that you want them to be strong enough for modern or commander, you are setting yourself up for an unhealthy environment.. IMO..

The merfolk jokes. I love them every time

So, what I'm wondering is why now they're afraid of "complex bans" when there are cards now that can be cast FROM THE SIDEBOARD and that check for every single card in your deck to be able to be played. How is that any different?

I had a similar event happen with my LGS to the professor's story. While not as extreme after the twin ban the scene died. I was the last and only modern player at the LGS and the mox opal got banned. I now wonder modern lost and alone with my affinity deck hoping to find a deck to play and enjoy again.

The opening skit was perfect, as usual!

..."We didnt play test this at all" "I dont need anymore standard decks" This had me crying laughing. I read the title and I still didnt see this coming.

Am I crazy or the Professor is looking a bit like Jeff Daniels?

Im quite sure the conversation you guys mentioned has happened where they don't think about the ramifications of a card before designing it. I think the number one proof of this is within the new set Ikoria, where we've already seen a card banned from Commander before it comes out due to having a restriction on it that is part of the rules of Commander.

On the topic of not printing cards to fight other cards, they printed Drannith Magistrate in Ikoria, which completely hoses underworld breach. Also, in ToE I'm pretty sure Questing Beast and Murderous Rider were supposed to be the answers to Oko. Now, clearly some of these haven't worked, and maybe we aren't getting as many as we used to, but they still do come up.

Love these skits at the beginning always makes me laugh 😂😂😂😂

"Modern Merfolk?" Yes!

Interesting video. I wonder if the need to be ultra careful in card design to ensure no card could possibly get banned would not curb the creativity of card designers a lot. I love cards that do new and exciting things and there may be a lot of ways to play them with all the many cards and synergies that exist. That may lead to ppl realizing the card is broken, but it also leads to the diversity and creativity I love about the game. I wonder if there could be a similar set up as in commander with experienced players on advisory boards with early access to cards.

My Vintage group and I have retroactively decided to "freeze" our decks at the point just before Dominaria. For us just too many crazy changes happened after that. Too many cards came, shook everything up and went away again, so we decided to not follow that and just see and wait where all this goes. And then at some point in the future where all this uncertainty is over we will update our decks again.

Wait, did Vince say *competitive EDH Sliver Overlord?* Silly Vince. Everyone knows the only cEDH-viable legendary sliver is The First Sliver. What's Overlord going to do, tutor up an army of slivers to scare your opponents out of combo-killing everyone on turn 3? Silly Vince.

20:37 Prof be looking posh like Liliana in the background

Funny they talked about this pre zendikar, because ooooh boy... This set literally breaks MTG arena

I absolutely agree and thought right from the start the planeswalker static effects should have been symmetrical. Hate effects should almost always be symmetrical, not just from a spike powerlvevel perspective, but from a Timmy/Tammy perspective. When I put a hate effect in a deck, it's because I want to take a stand against the kinds of decks that I hate, to put something my deck that says "screw this other deck in particular" but the one sided planeswalker effects were all used to say "I'm going to stop you form doing this so I can do it better." and that really rubs me the wrong way personally.

having mox opal banned out from my hardened scales deck almost killed magic for me. It feels EXPONENTIALLY worse when your deck ceases to exist because of a different deck; in my case urza

Wasn’t Painter’s Servant unbanned in EDH, around the same time Iona, Shield of Emeria got banned?

43:00 Check out the Gatherer discussion on Lotus Cobra from when it first released. People HATED a must-play mythic. Fun, cool, and powerful in a specific niche or mechanic is what they should be, not must play cards.

Your points are even truer now with the recent Lutri business.

I know this might sound crazy... but maybe.. MAYBE they should stop releasing that many sets / new cards a year and spend more time refining what they are going to put out!?

So when we gonna see the D&t vs merfolk

During scars of mirrodin, I got back into magic after years. I went and started trying standard and it was fun. I bought the event decks then the event deck with stoneforge came out and instantly got banned. That was the last time I went. I kinda got back into magic recently and started building modern decks and it amazes me how many more cards got banned in all formats. I miss my deathrite shaman.

I'd love to see an update of this video post Ikoria Spoilers, or even a couple weeks/months down the line where you have to assume there's going to be even more Ikoria bans because of how high the power level of this set is going to be.

Hahaha, goblin rabblemaster is literally the only card I’ve ever said was amazing that nobody was talking about. I had been playing for about a year, and I was a super broke HS student but I wanted to play standard so I decided to make a cheap monored deck and saw the card on the gatherer. Only bought a play set to use for my deck because I definitely didn’t have the money to speculate, but they also cost me less than $1.

My conspiracy theory about Opal is that WOTC was unhappy that there was a *somewhat affordable* modern deck

"Legacy Sneak and Show" "Thats not a real format" MY FUCKING HEART

10:00 It's not a question, they said that after Oko on a stream and everyone shared it around... You've quoted it before.