My website: www.justandsinner.org Publishing: www.jspublishing.org In this video, I discuss the "Young, Restless, and Reformed" movement and why so many people involved are no longer Calvinists.
Thank you for this video. I myself have never been a Calvinist, but I got into listening to Paul Washer, John Piper, and other reformed teachers in college. I was always taught that Calvinism was a secondary issue, so I didn’t even realize all of the Calvinist presuppositions these guys brought to the table and began subconsciously adopting some of these thought processes into my own life. Then I began dating a guy who was a Calvinist. I loved and still do love him dearly, but the issue of Calvinism tore us apart. As you said, he saw everything as very black and white and believed sanctification to be an upwards trajectory. When he didn’t see the progress in his life that he believed he ought to have, he would say very depressing things like “What if I’m a reprobate and God predestined me to hell?” He began to look for faults not only in himself, but in all the people around him. And eventually he began examining my life for “fruits” too of which he didn’t find enough for his own arbitrary standard. So he proceeded to break up with me, saying I was an unsaved unbeliever and he couldn’t date someone who wasn’t a Christian. But I know that I am saved! I believe that Christ died and rose again, paying the penalty for my sins and no-one gets to tell me what the inner thoughts of my heart are. That’s between me and the Lord. And regardless of if I sinned yesterday or if I sin tomorrow, it was all paid for on Calvary. Suffice to say, I’m being much more discerning with who I allow to speak into my life.
Diana Augustine Thanks for sharing. To me, theology that isn’t compatible or applicable in the crucible of real human relationships seems like it needs to be questioned. In this case, I would say that Calvinism destroys the basis of hopeful possibility that energises sustained romance and love.
Diana, thank you for posting this. It seems that I have the same mindset as your ex. I too think sanctification is an upward process that, if I’m not making progress, I too wonder if I’m predestined to hell. It’s oddly comforting to know I’m not the only one with that mindset. As to how I should proceed from here, who knows? *shrugs* I just feel defeated.
Perhaps this will shed some light on the doctrine imposed by John Calvin on Gods Word. It does not teach unconditional election. The only condition that God puts on salvation is that the person receives it because they they desire it and THEY put their faith in Him. But wait I almost forgot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you take every time the scriptures says "World" which is 20 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "Whoever" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "Whosoever" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "All" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "Everyman" which is 6 times and twist and force it to say Elect Then yes Calvin got it right. and Reformed Theology is true! WINK WINK Even the cult of the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses could take twisting lessons from the Deformed Theology pretending to be Christianity. TRUTH IN LOVE
I am a pastor of many years in an Arminian tradition, but am attracted to many aspects of Calvinism. I am convinced that Calvinism and Arminianism are just two perspectives on the same, profound truths. It is just that our minds are too small and narrow to grasp them. In any case, instead of focusing upon differences in religious doctrine, I think having a common enemy, secularism and the nihilism associated with, would be a more fruitful path for Christians to pursue.
Man that is refreshing, I completely agree, seems to me both sides are arguing past each other, looking at opposite sides of the same coin. Would love to see someone do a video revealing that. And I agree! The unsaved world uses us disagreeing with each other as fuel for not believing
@@TAdler-ex8px Human categories like logical consistency do not apply to scripture. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Is. 55:9
@@uncommonsensewithpastormar2913 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant doesn’t know what His Master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have from the Father I have made known to you. JN 15 :15 Because, All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training. 2 Pet 1: 20
@@TAdler-ex8pxlet me ask you this . Does the Bible teach that we need to repent , believe and be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins? - acts 2 :37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ? And does the Bible also teach that we are dead in our sins? 1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus? Eph. 2 :1-5 does this text speak of us repenting and believing? Clearly there are texts that explain what God does within our salvation and there are texts that explain to us the route to salvation- these texts do not contradict each other but affirm each other. Arminianism looks at only man’s side of that view while Calvinism focuses on what God does, and the result is we talk past each other! Arguing scripture against scripture, when. Both are true , granted man would not act if God did not act first!
I graduated high school in 2005, and was definitely part of the YRR crowd. I’m still Reformed, but not so much to the point that I refuse to fellowship with believers from other Christian traditions. I’ve definitely been blessed by your ministry on RU-vid and men like Pastor Fisk.
The true 5-Point Calvinist cannot be in a saved state. (but their is hope for them to reject it and come to Christ) Calvinists believe god created all things, and controls all things, predetermined all things, and made all things exactly the way they are.... thus god also created evil. therefore since calvinists believe god created evil. they are blaspheming against the holy spirit ... the only unforgivable sin. calvinists also believe the only people who will be saved have been predetermined by god. and since calvinists believe god predetermined who will be saved ... they have removed free will - the gift of god to humans, and removed jesus from the equation. since god (according to calvinists) has already determined who will be saved ... (and who will not be saved) ... those who will be saved do not need christ and those who will not be saved cannot come to christ. thus calvinists are not christians. Can a person be saved trusting in something other than Christ Jesus? NO! They are trusting in the hope of election not Christ! Is it possible to be in a reformed church and be saved. Yes, but that is in spite of the heresy. They must have put their faith in Christ separately from what is taught. Just like those in the Catholic Cult. There could be baby christians that have no clue what they are sitting under. If they wake up and listen to the Holy Spirit they would run out of the Hive screaming! Calvinism is NOT just another Christian denomination. It is a Cult. A doctrine of demons. Strangely how those in it, defend it to their deaths. That is how Satan, not God blinds them to the truth. But that is their God given right of free will, to do so. Truth in Love
This amazingly explained my experience as a Calvinist. I expected constant growth and improvement specifically because all the top Calvinists stressed the importance of works, so much so that if you lacked an x amount of works, your salvation would be called into question (which that x amount was never specified, it always was just a general statement with no explanation on how you can know if you're meeting the standard). So me, at that time, a porn addict, doing drugs, struggling with thoughts of suicide, hearing constantly the law as the standard of how you can know if you're a Christian or not, nearly killed my faith. Or, rather, made quite clear that I never truly had faith. Sure, times of avoiding pornography and not being depressed and reading the Bible daily would come, but they would not remain. It was quite clear that I was simply a false Christian who had not been given faith by God, and that I am simply deceiving myself. My sin made that clear. I was on the verge of completely rejecting the faith and just accepting that I'm going to die and go to hell or that God will give me faith eventually and THEN I'll see that constant growth. The first point of Calvinism I gave up was P, because I still was so convinced I was a Christian, but now I'm falling away, and Jesus made clear in John 15 whoever is in Him that does not bare fruit are cut off from Him. Thankfully, I discovered Lutheranism and the proper understanding of Word and Sacrament and the distinction between law and gospel. Thankfully, I no longer watch porn, I no longer desire to commit suicide, I no longer do drugs, and even more thankfully, I am freed from the burden of looking to those things and my works to validate my Christianity, for I still fall short in many ways. I have God's objective Word and Sacrament, and Christ the giver of those things, objectively dying for me, objectively telling me, "eat, drink", and His promise "come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest", is given to me, in His Word and Sacrament.
@@bobpolo2964 I have. Granted, there are lateral differences in the Calvinist movement concerning the emphasis on works or "fruit checking"(I would say that Michael Horton leans to an almost Lutheran perspective, whereas somebody like Washer or MacArthur is more evangelical sounding), but it's there in some quarters.
@@bobpolo2964 the stress is not barely on ''good works'' but on ''a life changed, without sin as a proof of salvation'', on a life based on the Law as the mean of salvation. Their ''anthropology'' is bad and surely the same occurred in your group. If they didn't point to neither of these emphasis' they were more inconsistent and relativist forms of christianity than the original ''reformed'' parties.
I recently recanted Calvinism...the Lord loves everyone and died for all. We are his creation created in his image. He desires that everyone would come to know him, he holds out his hands day and night. I am so free to see my Lord rightly represented vs. how Calvinism represents him
@@AlanaL3 If you are talking about God's preceptive will ("desire") then, yes, God actually doesn't just desire it, He commands that every single individual sinner come to Him [in Faith] and threatens the pain of destruction in the Lake of Fire for all who don't. However, if you are talking about God's decretive will ("desire") then, no, God has not decreed to save every single wretched rebel sinner. It's important to understand the categorical/biblical distinctions between God's preceptive and His decretive will; the Bible differentiates between these, and we should too. *Soli Deo Gloria*
Ryan Gallmeier Two wills, two knowledges, to graces, two loves, two what else? I don’t see any of this in the Scriptures yet Calvinism teaches it... is it biblical or have we gone wrong somewhere? :-)
@@AlanaL3 Did I say anything about "two knowledges," "two graces," "two loves," "two" anything else? Don't make the mistake of misrepresenting those who disagree with you; it's not a good route to take, apologetically. Let's take a look at an example of God's Foreordaining/Decretive Will vs. His Preceptive Will in Scripture: "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know- 23 this Jesus,[c] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. " (Acts 2:22-23, ESV). So, "lawless men" committed a lawless act (a sin; a transgression of God's Law...His PRECEPTIVE WILL), when they unlawfully murdered the Christ; but the murder of Christ was according to the "definite plan and foreknowledge of God" (His DECRETIVE WILL...His "definite plan"). Are you saying that by their [mythical] 'power of contrary choice' (the false definition synergists give of "Human Libertarian Free Will") they could have done otherwise? If so, you disagree with Scripture which prophesied the death of Christ in numerous prophecies. Unless you want to address the question: How Does God Know Stuff? Which I am happy to talk about. The fact is, these murderous sinners could NOT have done other than what they did. And, yet, they are still RESPONSIBLE for their sinful, murderous actions. There you have it: God's Decretive Will vs. His Preceptive Will explained in Scripture. We can go to many other places in Scripture where God foreordains that His commandments (preceptive will) would be disobeyed as well. More questions? Let me know. *Soli Deo Gloria*
As someone who was born and raised in more charismatic churches, I’ve always been satisfied with the mystery that was in the Bible because one of the things you are taught in those circles is a genuine aw for God and his ways being higher than our ways. Now being 30 myself, and having joined in the YRR movement back in about 2012ish, once I came to those gray spots in reformed theology, I actually got much more satisfaction out of the fact that there are still aspects of God and his works that are unknown, but this time I came at it with more intellect instead of blind acceptance like I did before. Interesting video. Thanks for sharing.
Perhaps this will shed some light on the doctrine imposed by John Calvin on Gods Word. It does not teach unconditional election. The only condition that God puts on salvation is that the person receives it because they they desire it and THEY put their faith in Him. But wait I almost forgot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you take every time the scriptures says "World" which is 20 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "Whoever" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "Whosoever" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "All" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "Everyman" which is 6 times and twist and force it to say Elect Then yes Calvin got it right. and Reformed Theology is true! WINK WINK Even the cult of the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses could take twisting lessons from the Deformed Theology pretending to be Christianity. TRUTH IN LOVE
the reformed tradition is the best one imo predestination/providence is a mystery and how compatibilism works but I know God is 100% responsible for salvation, He keeps us in the faith for life and nothing is outside of His control
When I was young and a hippie, 50+ years ago, we had a saying "Never trust anyone over the age of 30." I came to realize, as you have, that at 30, the realities of life set in, and the magical thinking of childhood passes away. I heartily agree with your well spoken assessment of Calvinism, which I had never heard of until the last ten years. Thank God for that!
I suppose I’m OSR (“Old, Settled and Reformed”), but I love the Lutheran liturgical tradition. I think the south German reformers were too quick to jettison the traditional western liturgy. Also I readily admit that I don’t have all the answers and don’t expect to in this life.
There needs to be a Bible and beer RU-vid channel where Anglicans, Lutherans, Reformed, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox Christians can come together and chills
There is nothing funny about men who stand on the foundation of John Calvin, absolutely nothing! "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) What slander, what lies to say God delights in the destruction of most of the human race He has lovingly created! What slander, what lies to say God has doomed people from birth! What slander, what lies to say God is the author of evil and forces men to carry out these evil acts and then condemns them for being His puppets. If you stand on the shoulders of Calvin YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN BUT A CULT FOLLOWER. Think long and hard on that. Your in a Cult even more dangerous than a Mormon of JW. Why? Because Calvinism hides the ugly and LOOKS like Christianity on the outside, but it is not! It is masquerading which satan is so good at! TRUTH IN LOVE
Maybe we should all turn back this: Grace! Grace! God's Grace! Grace that will pardon and cleanse within; Grace! Grace! God's Grace! Grace that is greater than all our sin!
I grew up lutheran, then came to known the Lord and now Im a Baptist and a Calvanist and honestly I love your charitable heart and pastoral approach. May the Lord continue to bless the ministry He has given you and may He bless you and your family 🙏
I can relate to this. I graduated from a reformed seminary and was completely convinced for a time. Reading the Ante-Nicene Father’s debunked many of my Calvinist leanings. To say Baptism and Communion do nothing is completely nonsensical. Then the logical conclusions of Reformed Theology really started to hit me. It wasn’t good news, it was awful news. I love the fact that you brought up straight edge! That’s awesome.
Pierre Defecto yeah reformed baptist isn’t much of a switch from anabaptists and now I am starting to hold to a more augustinian protestant view that baptism is for remission of sin. All of scripture, early fathers, reformers would say the same thing.
I may not be qualified to speak but I don't think the YRR were ever really reformed. TULIP is not reformed theology. Believing in predestination is not all there is to it. There seems to be a lot of law-gospel confusion too from that time period. I'm thinking books like Radical, Crazy Love, Desiring God etc. work work work or feel feel feel with the 5 points thrown in is not reformed theology.
That was a common criticism from lost of the confessional reformed Christians of the movement. And largely, they were correct. Most of them if you were to ask what confession they held to or what family of confessions they most agreed with, they would have just given you a blank stare.
Tulip is traditionally reformed. However, all the modern popular reformed teacher’s from MacArthur to piper would never have been recognized by the church of 100 years ago. The fundamental shift in reformed theology happened in the 50’s with kuyper and van til. The old school calvinists are people like John Robbins and Gordon Clark. They fought tooth and nail against heresies that have grown like wildfire today Their battles took place in the Presbyterian world. Most modern reformed people are Baptist’s, who are generally ignorant of reformed history.
@@LoneWolfRanging Could you please explain further? There is a stream of influence that can be traced back to the 17th century English Puritans. The Baptist C H Spurgeon read the Puritans. Martyn Lloyd-Jones read the Puritans. Jonathan Edwards is regarded by many as Puritan in his theology. These have all impacted on the theology of Calvinistic Baptists today. How does that differ from Presbyterianism? At what point did they move away from historic Reformed theology? What about R C Sproul?
I Agree, going back to the Reformed tradition in Turretin, Vermigli, Wilhemus a Brakel etc.. and Reformers is the best way to go than reading Chandler, Keller etc.. They have no foundation why the Reformation happened nor the issues.
This is a wonderful explanation. I’ve noticed a rise in calvinism and lordship salvation over this year and I push back against both of them because what I see when someone picks up that system is who is ***currently*** doing ***well*** picking up a MASSIVE unnecessary weight that they don’t realize is going to absolutely CRUSH them when they stumble and it falls on them. I push back against it because when things turn dark or go bad, and someone is MOST in need of God’s love, the system they accepted when it worked in their FAVOR during a GOOD season, now DESTROYS them when it’s not going so great and turns them away from the source of Hope and Help.
@@kylesalmon31 stick with solid independent fundamental baptist churches. Many sbc baptists teach it because they're reformed. Charles Lawson is an amazing pastor, Spencer smith, gene Kim, Gary hamrick
@@beckyyoussef2669 Charles Lawson is one of the most rabid Reformed 5-Point Calvinist out there! He is an amazing False teacher of the Demonic doctrine out there. Avoid him at all costs!!!
Graduated high school in 2007 and got absorbed into this movement because I was freshly Christian and all my Christian friends were into it especially with all the debating so it gave me a good framework. But recently I've been thinking about some of the harder questions and Calvinism seems to be giving answers that I did not find biblical. The deeper I dig, the harder it is to accept this type of theology. Ultimately it seems like a calvinist believes that God is responsible for sin and evil and it is their job to be God's lawyer to explain away why it's not really his fault and picking some people to be saved, while creating others to be doomed for hell, is actually justice and mercy in some weird cosmic way and if you disagree with that way of running the universe then tough! That's just the way it is. The Bible says that love is not self-seeking and I don't see how creating people so they can go to hell all for your glory is not self-seeking on God's part. I was beginning to no longer recognize who this God was that belonged to this system of beliefs and that's what began my walking away from this theology.
No, if you disagree with it then you're a reprobate with a mind of flesh, which proves that it's true because the midn of flesh is hostile to the things of God!
Dr Cooper, about 6 years ago a close family member of mine had a born again experience that they said changed them (around that time they were watching tulip type reformed preachers a lot online) and that experience has led them to condemn other Christians as unsaved unless they too have a life changing, inner "born again" experience. How would you respond to such a person whose faith is so tied to an experience that it ends up alienating them from other believers?
I think this is sad to see. I truly don’t believe it is the theology that is wrong, but how the people have applied it. People argue so much about the salvation process, but the distinction should be shifted to the sanctification process. Galatians 3:3 “Having begun by the Spirit are now being perfected by the flesh?” Often neither calvinists or any other group acknowledges that spiritual works/ fruit/ sanctification/ discipleship / Christian life past salvation must be continued in the spirit and not flesh. In conclusion good theology can look like dead faith if the Christian espousing it is trying to produce fruit by their own will at all. It’s either all Christ working in us or it’s nothing.
When I was in seminary I was talking with one of my professors about future plans post graduation. I told him I was considering getting involved with the YRR movement. He sighed, shook his head, and warned me away from it. He used some choice language about it that, upon further reflection and the fallout from the movement, was fairly prescient. I listened.
I was YRR and have been through a divorce & major bouts of depression- YET through those times I relied on the sovereignty of God and the truth of the five points in Scripture to get me through. I don't know how others have abandoned those truths in their times of peril when they were the life preserver for me (to know that the Father first loved me with a love that He did not show to others; to know that I will endure to the end of because of His grace; to know that I was adopted; etc.). Calvinism did not make me grow weary of supposed fruit-checking (for I was never taught that it was about that in the first place), but it encouraged me to let salvation belong to God alone through ALL of the ups & downs of my life. Regardless, I can recognize Lutherans as brothers. It's an in-house squabble we have going here. Grace and peace to you.
Evan Taylor Thanks for sharing brother. I agree. To know that it was God who first loved us helps me through everything. To know I can do nothing without Him but rely on the sovereignty of God. It gives me the peace of God that surpasses all understanding.
Why does thinking God loves you with love he does not show others make you feel better? How God loves others does not affect his love for you. Non-Calvinists believe God is Sovereign, even as He chose to allow us to follow him or not. God alone offers us salvation, but we are responsible to respond. I can show you how proof verses used for Calvinism are not proof verses for Calvinism. For instance, Eph 1:5 "he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will" does not tell us that God is picking some to be his sons. It is telling us that we who are his sons are destined to have our bodies redeemed in the future. Notice the way "adoption" is used in Roman's 8:23 ("Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.") Not trying to sound arguementative, but want to help you see the other view.
@@jcthomas3408 "Predestined" in Eph. 1:5 literally means "chosen beforehand" or "priorizo"....which means to differentiate or set aside before. And to be chosen beforehand makes me feel better because what a love to know you were adopted because of nothing in you (good or bad)!! How does that not make you rejoice?! To know that your salvation is ALL of God and you can't do anything to lose such a salvation because it is granted to you by His hand.
@@evantaylormakestunes23 yes, he prepared a destination ahead of time for those who are in Christ. It is a beautiful thing, but my point was why would it be comforting that you are elect and others are not? You said you know the Father first loved you "with a love that He did not show to others". Adoption is not becoming saved. Adoption is something we look forward to, the redemption of our bodies. We have not been adopted yet, but those of us who are in Christ are assured that it will happen.
@@jcthomas3408 Perhaps he is describing the idea proposed in Romans 9 in which God prepared vessels of wrath in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy. So maybe it's less of a comparative thing and more an outpouring of thanks to the father for revealing to him the riches of his glory which not everyone will get to experience or begin to understand. Further, God's power and justice are demonstrated in the unrepentant vessel of wrath which makes the riches of his glory all the brighter to the receiver of mercy.
Why people left: (1) Because Calvinism was being slammed and pilloried, and so becoming a Calvinist was how young evangelical men rebelled. (2) Because it was a brand of Calvinism that was not Confessional. It was an excitement about a particular soteriology, but without any grounding in Confessionalism, it died. As one would expect.
EXACTLY!! I'm 18, was raised Pentecostal, and now consider myself a Calvinist. However, I'm more than that. I would consider myself a Confessional Presbyterian.
@@ivylagrone8632 Calvinism that is connected to a confession of faith. Like the Westminster Confession of Faith or the London Baptist 1689 Confession of Faith
@@ivylagrone8632 _"what "connects" it? And how is the connected Calvinism different than the unconnected?"_ I'm assuming you are coming from a non-denominational, general baptist or otherwise so called "low" church perspective. Your church probably has a statement of faith/belief. The goal is to publicly declare what doctrines that congregation upholds and (implicitly or explicitly) what other it rejects. That statement reflects how your local church connects the Bible with its preaching and other ministries. Most denominations historically had much more extensive statements of beliefs that connected their understanding of scripture on a much broader host of issues than the pretty pithy and truncated statements of faith most churches use today. Reformed Christianity is historically a confessional faith in that it produces these confessions and ministers in the denomination are expected to affirm them or declare any exception they take with them under examination before being approved for ministry within the denomination. The two most common Reformed Confessions are the Westminster Confession and the Three Forms of Unity (named so for the three documents that it is made up of, the Belgic Confession, Heidelberg Catechism, and Canons of Dort). While your local church's statement of faith probably was written by that church and only applies to that church and have no weight outside of that one congregation, the Reformed Confessions have united and serve as a doctrinal standard for Reformed Christians across many denominations and across several centuries. BTW, as this is a Lutheran Channel, Lutherans are also (usually) Confessional, with the Book of Concord as their doctrinal standards. Much of it is agreeable to Reformed Christians, but there are some important differences that distinguish Reformed and Lutheran doctrine. The thing that disconnects YRR or general "Calvinists" from the historic confessional Reformed is that while they might share a generally "Calvinistic" understanding of how salvation works, they lack unity on the rest of the Reformed distinctives, rejecting a conventional view of God's promises and how the sign and seal of those conventional promises are expressed in the sacraments and are lived out in every aspect of our lives. Its also important to understand that by having a confession, they aren't rejecting scripture or putting something above God's word. If that thought even crossed your mind, I would highly encourage you to read at least the first chapter of the Westminster Confession, and you'll see that it very explicitly holds that the Holy Spirit speaking through scripture is the ultimate authority that all lesser authorities must submit, and that includes that very confession of faith.
0:38 Topic 1:18 Overview of YRR history 3:55 Positive aspects 5:02 Why people left. 6:48 No nuance or mystery. 11:46 Disappointment with progress in sanctification. 15:13 It was often just a trend. 16:40 However, some who left _had_ been informed Calvinists with genuine conviction.
I became Reformed at the tail end of the YRR time, and while I think Dr. Cooper makes some good points, I'd have to say that I think the primary reason was fadishness. Many of the people running around talking about Calvin and the 5 points hadn't even read Calvin, much less Warfield, Hodge, Van Til, etc. Anyone I know who once claimed Calvinism and subsequently changed their views hadn't done their homework in a serious way. Me and the folks who are still Calvinist are those who would crack open a big book from time to time and those who were consistently discipled.
There is nothing funny about men who stand on the foundation of John Calvin, absolutely nothing! "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) What slander, what lies to say God delights in the destruction of most of the human race He has lovingly created! What slander, what lies to say God has doomed people from birth! What slander, what lies to say God is the author of evil and forces men to carry out these evil acts and then condemns them for being His puppets. If you stand on the shoulders of Calvin YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN BUT A CULT FOLLOWER. Think long and hard on that. Your in a Cult even more dangerous than a Mormon of JW. Why? Because Calvinism hides the ugly and LOOKS like Christianity on the outside, but it is not! It is masquerading which satan is so good at! TRUTH IN LOVE
@@heresyhunters I can take that! Jesus said that we would be persecuted by those thinking they were doing God a service. I consider it a compliment. Sorry Heresy, the truth is hard to swallow sometimes. TRUTH IN LOVE
I serve at a Pentecostal/charismatic church( barely started college) and when I found the reformed movement through Paul washer and John MacArthur etc about almost 2 years ago it was like you said very attractive with its intellectual aspect to it. However soon as months went on I just couldn’t agree with their tulip and certain doctrines regarding the elect and predestination etc. as it conflicted with my Pentecostal upbringing. At this same time I started researching what other denominations and movements believed in and their stances on such topics like once saved always saved or the elect. It got to the point where I was freaking out and thinking in my mind “well if they have that wrong then I can’t trust them nor the movements I’ve learned or served in”. Movements like the kjv onlyist baptist also made me doubt not only the reformed movement but even those in my family who were Pentecostal or charismatic leaning Christians. Eventually after praying and discussing with those I knew personally ranging from baptist, Lutherans, charismatics and Pentecostals I realized that some verses or chapters were just never going to make sense to me in such a black and white manner. These movements and the people in them all shared the same foundation which was faith alone in Jesus Christ. I knew these movements had their differences regarding worship, how the Holy Spirit works in believers, sanctification, and fruits of the spirit, tongues. And yet these verses and doctrines that they tried to box up these very large concepts or mysteries from the Bible alongside the disagreements I had with each of them movements (even with my own pastor who I have disagreements with in certain topics whenever he talks about other denominations) made me realize that truly we are in no place to make these definite conclusions about certain parts of the scripture. I realized that I just have to continue my walk with Christ and acknowledge that you have to put your trust in God as he is the author of our faith. Nowadays I guess I lean more towards charismatic but don’t call myself such as I have issues regarding some of their practices like certain groups in those movements who believe if you don’t speak in tongues you aren’t saved, which I find to be A very dangerous belief even if I do believe that some people can speak tongues, yet I still do believe God is working in that movement alongside the other aforementioned Protestant denominations(I’m more of a Ruslan-Allen parr- mike winger kind of guy). I’m sure that as I grow up I will for sure change my stance on other aspects of my faith. One last thing Something Ruslan touched on that made me come to this mindset if I can even call it that, is that every Christian has different upbringing some raised Calvinist others Baptist, Lutheran, charismatic etc. and others were raised in the world. Already from their backgrounds alone in youth, that will impact greatly whenever they interpret the aforementioned doctrines and aspects of our faith like worship etc. regardless of all this… there are both believers and false converts in these denominations. But the believes however widespread they are and however culturally different they are and certainly their denominational upbringing, still have their faith in Christ (and not in their works) and always want to uphold a biblical standard and push away sin even if they do stumble in certain secondary beliefs. However as long as that foundation ,which is Christ, is there, they are saved and I can call them my brother or sister in Christ. My main issue I guess (and this is me I guess now letting my thoughts out even more) is that our perspective of sin and certain scripture cannot be understood by us as we are only human. For example, many Christian’s regardless of Protestant denomination differences, will when preaching or sharing about Sin and how truly disgusting it is… that perspective… ours, is not even close to how God feels about sin. For him he is sinned against literally thousands if not millions of times each second even by his believers who still live in this world with flesh and sin even if they don’t intend to. We cannot even comprehend let alone explain just how horrible sin is (our language can only do so much with words). That thought alone goes to show we won’t be able to fully understand let alone apply every single tiny part of scripture fully to our lives as believers. And when that reality hits you, all you can really do is keep walking in Christ.
I was YRR for several years coming out of high school in 2009. I began to transition to a more confessional understanding of reformed theology around 2014. After getting married and having kids, life got real. I was getting hit with depression and anxiety, but also starting to think “Is this all the Bible is about? Surely I haven’t broken the code to understanding God, right?” A friend gave me “The King Jesus Gospel” by Scot McKnight and it flipped my world upside down (right side up). I really got into NT Wright after that and eventually walked the Canterbury trail into the Anglican tradition. I’ve considered Orthodoxy on and off as well. Most of it has to do with (1) Penal Sub. Atonement isn’t the extent of the gospel, and the overemphasis of the doctrine was a source of my anxiety and depression because I never saw myself as a beloved child of God. I was always a sinner and nothing I could do would change that until I got out of my body and into heaven. (2) The lack of mystery in the Calvinist movement became glaringly obvious when I became a parent. The sacramental perspective of the Anglican and Orthodox tradition appealed to me because it affirmed the reality that I don’t (and can’t) know everything. There was so much pressure among all my peers to one-up everyone else theologically that it became a kind of rat race. I had to become a Bible expert to fit in. I was once studying the Bible 3hrs or more in a day, and it was stressing me out. I still study the Bible, but the Anglican tradition taught me that I can do that simply by reading the Bible, praying, and meditating on it throughout the day. I don’t have to be an expert, I just have to be in communion with God through Jesus.
Emanuel Burke Amen! I currently attend a non-Calvinist Baptist church, but I was a part of small an Anglican parish for a couple years and I love that church. I found the intellectual rigor I desired there, but done out of genuine interest to know God, not in pride for bible trivia. They taught me the beauty of a liturgical approach. Unfortunately I had to move out of town, but I miss that church. Those people loved Jesus and loved each other. Being a member there was truly one of the best experiences of my life.
Emanuel Burke Did it feel like a courageous move to let go of the YRR paradigm? I can only imagine it was quite hard to leave an ideology that is so risk free and step into an unknown that actually requires trust in God. But that may not have been your journey at all. Just curious!
Thank you SO MUCH for saying that! I identify with the over introspection and walked away multiple times because I could not stop fighting my sins and I wasn’t truly saved, I wasn’t sure I was one of the Elect, God could not love me because I deserve Hell, etc. I concur with you. I am now an Orthodox catechumen (I was Anglican at one point, for a few months but not officially).
yeah, "young restless reformed" aren't even reformed... they're just calvingelicals who want to argue and show their intellectualism confessional reformed tradition is one of the best things I've have stumbled on
Did you hold onto that beard to be able to reach the reformed calvinists 😉 just kidding. I really appreciate your perspective. I got saved in 2002 and really resonated with reformed/calvinist theology. At 37 I’m beginning to wrestle with some of this and there’s definitely been some fear that I’ve gone astray or at least that I will be perceived as going astray. This video and the flame interview were incredibly helpful in this journey of growth and (hopefully) maturing
Yep. Left Calvinism and now Orthodox. It’s harder in different ways, but in the right ways in my opinion. I hate to admit it, but when I was a Calvinist I genuinely got frustrated and would scoff when I would see people say “God loves you” to someone online or in sermons. It was so dark, and I still repent for how blind and calloused I was.
Dr. Cooper thank you so much....we are around the same age and i was that dude arguing Romans 9 to prove a point and not for the joy of others as Paul states" I am a worker with you for your joy!". I still hold to the five point but found that I distanced myself from that movement because it began to be so intellectual and arrogant that it was relationally destructive which is absolutely counter intuitive. Thanks Dr. COOPER- Grace and Peace
Hitler also lists Martin Luther as one of his role models for his Nazi party! Hitler took to heart Luther's solution for the Jewish problem. Hitler also said in one of his speeches "Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing.” (Adolf Hitler, Hitler’s speeches, edited by Prof. N.H. Baynes [oxford, 1942], pg. 369.) Quote from Luthers own writings: “Burn their synagogues. Forbid them all that I have mentioned above. Force them to work and treat them with every kind of severity, as Moses did in the desert and slew three thousand… If that is no use, we must drive them away like mad dogs, in order that we may not be partakers of their abominable blasphemy and of all their vices, and in order that we may not deserve the anger of God and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Let everyone see how he does his. I am excused.” (About the Jews and Their Lies,’ quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 290.) “ If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham” (Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413.) “The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves.”(Weimar, Vol. 53, Pg. 502.) Luther was a Calvinist before Calvin. Luther teaches: “…with regard to God, and in all that bears on salvation or damnation, (man) has no ‘free-will’, but is a captive, prisoner and bond slave, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan.” (From the essay, ‘Bondage of the Will,’ ‘Martin Luther: Selections From His Writings, ed. by Dillenberger, Anchor Books, 1962 p. 190.) “…we do everything of necessity and nothing by ‘free-will’; for the power of ‘free-will’ is nil…” (Ibid., p. 188.) “Man is like a horse. Does God leap into the saddle? The horse is obedient and accommodates itself to every movement of the rider and goes whither he wills it. Does God throw down the reins? Then Satan leaps upon the back of the animal, which bends, goes and submits to the spurs and caprices of its new rider… Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. God is the author of what is evil as well as of what is good, and, as He bestows happiness on those who merit it not, so also does He damn others who deserve not their fate.” (‘De Servo Arbitrio’, 7, 113 seq., quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, pp. 266-267.) “His (Judas) will was the work of God; God by His almighty power moved his will as He does all that is in this world.” (De servo Arbitrio, against man’s free will.) Calvin teaches the same thing. God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) “thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5) “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) You Calvinists have a rich heritage that goes back to the garden when the real founder of Calvinism said and I quote. "Did God really say...... to Eve. Now you Have Calvinistic Reformed Churches all over the World saying. " Did God really say He doesn't want to save all people.... Or " Did God really say that Jesus died for every person...... Same lie different mouths preaching it! TRUTH IN LOVE
There is nothing funny about men who stand on the foundation of John Calvin, absolutely nothing! "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) What slander, what lies to say God delights in the destruction of most of the human race He has lovingly created! What slander, what lies to say God has doomed people from birth! What slander, what lies to say God is the author of evil and forces men to carry out these evil acts and then condemns them for being His puppets. If you stand on the shoulders of Calvin YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN BUT A CULT FOLLOWER. Think long and hard on that. Your in a Cult even more dangerous than a Mormon of JW. Why? Because Calvinism hides the ugly and LOOKS like Christianity on the outside, but it is not! It is masquerading which satan is so good at! TRUTH IN LOVE
I can see in this my sons development from a Straight Edge Punker to the solid man he is today. Also, interestingly enough my own during the Jesus Movement/Charismatic of the Seventies. Honestly, you’ve helped this old man clarify his theological foundations, keep it up.
I've been making my way through Martin Chemnitz's 'Two natures in Christ' and he has extensive quotes from various church fathers; Through the book I've become more curious about Damascenus and more open to Crysostom. Also found that Eastern Orthodox have free online library heavily featuring the fathers. Christ's peace and the Spirit's guidance as you go.
Also the Calvinists appear to have a more nestorian view of Christ than put forward by Chemnitz in the FoC, you can find articles regarding this online
Cooper's analysis strikes true for the Young Restless and Reformed (New Calvinism) crowd-because they are functionally Anabaptists. But the analysis is not consistently applicable for orthodox, historically reformed crowds-to be fair I think he qualifies that. And many of us who have become Anglican are still traditionally Reformed (and not FV).
Thank you for this discussion. The introspection part of Calvinism is also present in Arminian circles. They just say "you've lost your salvation." "If you're not going upward, you're going downward." So there's always altar calls, "rededicating your life to Christ" "revival meetings" to the point that it just becomes a cycle...
Whole lot of assumptions, assertions and psychological evaluations for the reasons people have left or joined Calvinism. People get hurt by church and sometimes conclude it was because of the teachings. Sometimes it was in fact the teachers or the persons own internal conflicts were responsible. Doctrine is usually a side door for an emergency exit. The issues run deeper than this, as deep as “theology” maybe.
Hitler also lists Martin Luther as one of his role models for his Nazi party! Hitler took to heart Luther's solution for the Jewish problem. Hitler also said in one of his speeches "Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing.” (Adolf Hitler, Hitler’s speeches, edited by Prof. N.H. Baynes [oxford, 1942], pg. 369.) Quote from Luthers own writings: “Burn their synagogues. Forbid them all that I have mentioned above. Force them to work and treat them with every kind of severity, as Moses did in the desert and slew three thousand… If that is no use, we must drive them away like mad dogs, in order that we may not be partakers of their abominable blasphemy and of all their vices, and in order that we may not deserve the anger of God and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Let everyone see how he does his. I am excused.” (About the Jews and Their Lies,’ quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 290.) “ If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham” (Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413.) “The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves.”(Weimar, Vol. 53, Pg. 502.) Luther was a Calvinist before Calvin. Luther teaches: “…with regard to God, and in all that bears on salvation or damnation, (man) has no ‘free-will’, but is a captive, prisoner and bond slave, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan.” (From the essay, ‘Bondage of the Will,’ ‘Martin Luther: Selections From His Writings, ed. by Dillenberger, Anchor Books, 1962 p. 190.) “…we do everything of necessity and nothing by ‘free-will’; for the power of ‘free-will’ is nil…” (Ibid., p. 188.) “Man is like a horse. Does God leap into the saddle? The horse is obedient and accommodates itself to every movement of the rider and goes whither he wills it. Does God throw down the reins? Then Satan leaps upon the back of the animal, which bends, goes and submits to the spurs and caprices of its new rider… Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. God is the author of what is evil as well as of what is good, and, as He bestows happiness on those who merit it not, so also does He damn others who deserve not their fate.” (‘De Servo Arbitrio’, 7, 113 seq., quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, pp. 266-267.) “His (Judas) will was the work of God; God by His almighty power moved his will as He does all that is in this world.” (De servo Arbitrio, against man’s free will.) Calvin teaches the same thing. God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) “thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5) “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) You Calvinists have a rich heritage that goes back to the garden when the real founder of Calvinism said and I quote. "Did God really say...... to Eve. Now you Have Calvinistic Reformed Churches all over the World saying. " Did God really say He doesn't want to save all people.... Or " Did God really say that Jesus died for every person...... Same lie different mouths preaching it! TRUTH IN LOVE
Brother, thanks. Can I ask you a question? How far can we get away from Luther, Calvin and Edwards without falling into a heretical ground? I’m honest. I’m not watching this kind of information just to have something to play with. Thanks if you can give me an answer or refer me to some source to dig in.
Hitler also lists Martin Luther as one of his role models for his Nazi party! Hitler took to heart Luther's solution for the Jewish problem. Hitler also said in one of his speeches "Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing.” (Adolf Hitler, Hitler’s speeches, edited by Prof. N.H. Baynes [oxford, 1942], pg. 369.) Quote from Luthers own writings: “Burn their synagogues. Forbid them all that I have mentioned above. Force them to work and treat them with every kind of severity, as Moses did in the desert and slew three thousand… If that is no use, we must drive them away like mad dogs, in order that we may not be partakers of their abominable blasphemy and of all their vices, and in order that we may not deserve the anger of God and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Let everyone see how he does his. I am excused.” (About the Jews and Their Lies,’ quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 290.) “ If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham” (Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413.) “The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves.”(Weimar, Vol. 53, Pg. 502.) Luther was a Calvinist before Calvin. Luther teaches: “…with regard to God, and in all that bears on salvation or damnation, (man) has no ‘free-will’, but is a captive, prisoner and bond slave, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan.” (From the essay, ‘Bondage of the Will,’ ‘Martin Luther: Selections From His Writings, ed. by Dillenberger, Anchor Books, 1962 p. 190.) “…we do everything of necessity and nothing by ‘free-will’; for the power of ‘free-will’ is nil…” (Ibid., p. 188.) “Man is like a horse. Does God leap into the saddle? The horse is obedient and accommodates itself to every movement of the rider and goes whither he wills it. Does God throw down the reins? Then Satan leaps upon the back of the animal, which bends, goes and submits to the spurs and caprices of its new rider… Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. God is the author of what is evil as well as of what is good, and, as He bestows happiness on those who merit it not, so also does He damn others who deserve not their fate.” (‘De Servo Arbitrio’, 7, 113 seq., quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, pp. 266-267.) “His (Judas) will was the work of God; God by His almighty power moved his will as He does all that is in this world.” (De servo Arbitrio, against man’s free will.) Calvin teaches the same thing. God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) “thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5) “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) You Calvinists have a rich heritage that goes back to the garden when the real founder of Calvinism said and I quote. "Did God really say...... to Eve. Now you Have Calvinistic Reformed Churches all over the World saying. " Did God really say He doesn't want to save all people.... Or " Did God really say that Jesus died for every person...... Same lie different mouths preaching it! TRUTH IN LOVE
@@Charles72910 Yes! Anything that apposes Satan's Bad News Gospel of Calvinism is 'SPAM" to the Cult! Actually I look at it more like everyday is "Calvin Whacking day"! I share the truth only because thousands are leaving the Cult of REFORMED 5-POINT CALVINISM and are getting saved! Calvinists believe god created all things, and controls all things, predetermined all things, and made all things exactly the way they are.... thus god also created evil. therefore since calvinists believe god created evil. they are blaspheming against the holy spirit ... the only unforgivable sin. calvinists also believe the only people who will be saved have been predetermined by god. and since calvinists believe god predetermined who will be saved ... they have removed free will - the gift of god to humans, and removed jesus from the equation. since god (according to calvinists) has already determined who will be saved ... (and who will not be saved) ... those who will be saved do not need christ and those who will not be saved cannot come to christ. thus calvinists are not christians. Can a person be saved trusting in something other than Christ Jesus? NO! They are trusting in the hope of election not Christ! Is it possible to be in a reformed church and be saved. Yes but that is in spite of the heresy. They must have put their faith in Christ separately from what is taught. Just like those in the Catholic Cult. There could be baby christians that have no clue what they are sitting under. If they wake up and listen to the Holy Spirit they would run out of the Hive screaming! Calvinism is NOT just another Christian denomination. It is a Cult. A doctrine of demons. Strangely how those in it, defend it to their deaths. That is how Satan, not God blinds them to the truth. But that is their God given right of free will, to do so. Truth in Love
Thank you for this discussion. I am a lot older than you and have watched many trends in the church beginning in the 1960s. One positive thing I have noticed, which I hope is not just a trend, is many young Christians seeking a more robust faith and returning to the roots of Christianity, rediscovering careful study of the Bible, the great fathers of the church and the creeds as as well as the magisterial reformers who were themselves influenced by the early and medieval theologians. I see a great hope in this. I tend not to think it is a trend, since it is happening in small places across denominations. I do not yet see the signs that this is considered cool in the usual sense. You are one of those theologians, but I see some also within the reform tradition and within Catholicism. I see it also in my Anglican church. Not everyone agrees on every point, but what is common to all is a serious commitment to faithfulness. I am also hoping that what I see happening stays under the radar until it becomes stronger and more widespread. I suspect that some of the Calvinists you mentioned, such as Rob Bell, were partly undone by being set too high on a pedestal.
I don't get distracted or want something new. I just want the truth. And when you say "Some people are just swept along by what's cool at the time" I hear the following ringing in my ears: "...so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes." Saying...."this is just how it is" seems a bit scary to me. It's like...just accepting that people are being swept along by every wind of doctrine. We have been warned against that in the Bible. So it seems to be bad form to normalize it.
There is nothing funny about men who stand on the foundation of John Calvin, absolutely nothing! "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) What slander, what lies to say God delights in the destruction of most of the human race He has lovingly created! What slander, what lies to say God has doomed people from birth! What slander, what lies to say God is the author of evil and forces men to carry out these evil acts and then condemns them for being His puppets. If you stand on the shoulders of Calvin YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN BUT A CULT FOLLOWER. Think long and hard on that. Your in a Cult even more dangerous than a Mormon of JW. Why? Because Calvinism hides the ugly and LOOKS like Christianity on the outside, but it is not! It is masquerading which satan is so good at! TRUTH IN LOVE
@@truth7416 - sure. Right. Whatever. You clearly don't understand how this works. You are just a bunch of emotion. God saves people. He reaches down and divinely acts in their life so that they get saved. He arranges and guides the circumstances to that someone with the gospel shows up at their front door and gives them the good news about salvation in Christ alone. He then reaches down and quickens their spiritually dead heart so that they are able to receive that message in faith and repent of their sins. What I just outlined above is absolutely Biblically accurate. GOD is the one doing those things. GOD is the one doing the saving. He is choosing to DO things in order to save people. He's not sitting around waiting for people to figure out if they want to sign up with Team Jesus. He's actively pursuing the people he chose before the foundation of the world. And if he doesn't DO something to save them...they will remain spiritually dead. Period. That being the case...the majority of mankind IS doomed. Not because God is actively "dooming" them. They are doomed because of their own sinful actions unless God acts in their lives to save them. Since he passes over most of the human race and only effectively brings the gospel to the few who enter through the narrow gate...in that sense they are doomed. In the passive sense of being passed over for the special treatment that the saved receive when God grants them faith and repentance to salvation. Also, nothing in the teachings of Calvin state that God is the "author of evil" or that the "forces men to carry out evil acts" as you stated. That was a misrepresentation. You twisted things there. I don't know if you did it intentionally or out of ignorance...but your words on that subject are false. People are sinful all by themselves. God doesn't need to to "force" them to sin in any way. In fact, the Bible says that God in his grace is holding BACK man's sinfulness so that they are not as sinful as they otherwise would be! So no. He doesn't "force" anyone to sin. They do it all on their own. And God lets them. He's under no obligation to stop them. He doesn't "owe it to us" to save every last human being and sanctify them so that they sin less and less. That gift and that process are all by grace. God is allowed to grant those good gifts to many...or he is allowed to grant them to few. He has chosen to grant them to few. That's what Jesus says. Wide is the road that leads to destruction and many are on it. God grants grace to only a few to help them find the narrow gate. Anyway....your railing spirit tells me that either you are an immature Christian, a Christian who's mind has been bathed in false teaching on this issue, or not a Christian at all. If it's either of the first two then when God glorifies your body and your mind as he has promised to do for all his people...when he removes the blinders so that you no longer see through a glass darkly...you will understand clearly who God is. And you will worship him in spirit and in truth. And you will appreciate fully his justice and judgement and his diving sovereignty in choosing to save some and pass over others. I pray that God gives you wisdom before then on this issue and opens your eyes to the truth of his word so you can love and fear God more and I pray also that you choose to follows his words to have your words be more gracious and less attacking in nature.
@@BrianReplies Brian you have said so much. I will respond in caps in your text out line. Right. Whatever. You clearly don't understand how this works. You are just a bunch of emotion. TRUE......God saves people. He reaches down and divinely acts in their life. FALSE, ITS SO THEY MAY CHOOSE TO GET SAVED. So that they get saved. TRUE.... He arranges and guides the circumstances to that someone with the gospel shows up at their front door and gives them the good news about salvation in Christ alone. FALSE EVERYONE IS QUICKENED IT STARTS AT BIRTH.....He then reaches down and quickens their spiritually dead heart so that they are able to receive that message in faith and repent of their sins. FALSE IT WAS ACCURATE CALVINISM NOT THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST....What I just outlined above is absolutely Biblically accurate. TRUE.... GOD is the one doing those things. GOD is the one doing the saving. He is choosing to DO things in order to save people. He's not sitting around waiting for people to figure out if they want to sign up with Team Jesus. FALSE CALVINIST MANTRA.... He's actively pursuing the people he chose before the foundation of the world. And if he doesn't DO something to save them...they will remain spiritually dead. TRUE THAT IS THE ANSWER CALVINISTS GIVE TO ALL CHRISTIANS..... Period. FALSE ..... TOTAL CALVINIST BRAINWASHING HERE..... That being the case...the majority of mankind IS doomed. REALLY LET ME QUOTE YOUR FATHER JOHN CALVIN. REMEMBER THESE ARE HIS EXACT WORDS "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)...... SO CALVINISTS DO BELIEVE DON"T THEY?.... FALSE DOCTRINE.... Not because God is actively "dooming" them. They are doomed because of their own sinful actions unless God acts in their lives to save them. Since he passes over most of the human race and only effectively brings the gospel to the few who enter through the narrow gate...in that sense they are doomed. In the passive sense of being passed over for the special treatment that the saved receive when God grants them faith and repentance to salvation. FALSE AGAIN .....Also, nothing in the teachings of Calvin state that God is the "author of evil" or that the "forces men to carry out evil acts" as you stated. That was a misrepresentation. You twisted things there. I don't know if you did it intentionally or out of ignorance...but your words on that subject are false. LET ME QUOTE YOUR FATHER JOHN CALVIN. REMEMBER THESE ARE HIS EXACT WORDS "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)...... SO CALVINISTS DO BELIEVE DON"T THEY?.... FALSE .....People are sinful all by themselves. God doesn't need to to "force" them to sin in any way. In fact, the Bible says that God in his grace is holding BACK man's sinfulness so that they are not as sinful as they otherwise would be! So no. He doesn't "force" anyone to sin. They do it all on their own. And God lets them. I WILL ANSWER ABOVE WITH JOHN CALVINS EXACT WORDS. THAT GOD DOES FORCE PEOPLE TO DO EVIL “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) ....... HOW DID YOU MISS THAT IN YOUR REFORMED TRAINING.... TOTALLY FALSE...... He's under no obligation to stop them. He doesn't "owe it to us" to save every last human being and sanctify them so that they sin less and less. That gift and that process are all by grace. God is allowed to grant those good gifts to many...or he is allowed to grant them to few. He has chosen to grant them to few. That's what Jesus says. Wide is the road that leads to destruction and many are on it. God grants grace to only a few to help them find the narrow gate. GOD MUST COMPLETE AND FULL FILL HIS PROMISES TO MANKIND. LIKE THIS VERSE 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. FALSE.....I HATE WITH ALL MY HEART SIN AND FALSE TEACHERS WHO ARE PREACHING DOCTRINES OF DEMONS... THOSE THAT COME BETWEEN GOD AND THE OBJECTS OF HIS LOVE... MANKIND...GOD COMMANDS US TO.... Anyway... FALSE.... I HAVE BEEN SAVED FOR 41 YEARS AND KNEW CALVINISM WAS A CULT ALMOST EMMEDIATELY. GOD KEPT SAFE FROM YOUR DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.....your railing spirit tells me that either you are an immature Christian, a Christian who's mind has been bathed in false teaching on this issue, or not a Christian at all. If it's either of the first two then when God glorifies your body and your mind as he has promised to do for all his people...when he removes the blinders so that you no longer see through a glass darkly...you will understand clearly who God is. And you will worship him in spirit and in truth. CULTS HAVE NO TRUTH ONLY REPEATED LIES.... And you will appreciate fully his justice and judgement and his diving sovereignty in choosing to save some and pass over others. I pray that God gives you wisdom before then on this issue and opens your eyes to the truth of his word so you can love and fear God more and I pray also that you choose to follows his words to have your words be more gracious and less attacking in nature. THAT IS SO STUPID... IN YOUR MIND YOU HAVE NO FREEWILL TO THINK, YET YOUR GOING TO PRAY TO GET gOD TO CHANGE hIS MIND ON THINGS hE DECREED IN THE FIRST PLACE.... ( I AM TALKING ABOUT CALVINS GOD) MAYBE MY WORDS SHOULD BE AS ATTACKING AS MY LORD AN SAVIOUR HAD FOR PEOPLE LIKE THE CALVINISTS OF HIS DAY. “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Matthew 23:33 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Matthew 23:27-28 I know you think your right from your training and you are right in that you know the Cults doctrine. But please consider the things I have said and ask God to show you the truth and be willing to go with it either way. Sounds fair to me. LOVE IN TRUTH
@@truth7416 - just saying "FALSE" 100 times doesn't make you any more correct. Like I said....you'll be corrected in eternity. Let's review the key verse: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" - Ephesians 2:1-3 Who has he quickened? Everyone? No. The verse is clear. Paul is speaking to the Ephesians here. The saved. The Christians. It's the CHRISTIANS that God has quickened. Not "everyone at birth". That's a false teaching on your part. So it's the Christians who are quickened and the Christians alone. And who does the quickening? God. Furthermore...the verse says that they were "dead" in their trespasses and sins. Do dead people "choose"? Do they make any kind of choice at all? Of course not. Being dead is being powerless to choose. The unsaved cannot "choose" to accept the gospel under their own power...because they HAVE no power. They are spiritually dead. Unless and until God quickens them...they will remain in their natural state. Anyway...you clearly like to argue. And the Bible forbids us to engage in vain disputes. So I'm done with this conversation. Jesus is Lord.
@@BrianReplies You sure put a lot of effort in protecting the Calvinist 5 point Reformed Theology CULT! Good little Calvinist. : If you talk to a MORMON about their founder Joseph Smith who invented the movement in 1820. If you were to say that it is heresy for Joseph Smith to say that Jesus was just an ordinary man like any man, that then evolved into a god who then created this universe. And he also teaches that all men will evolve to god hood and then create their own universes. They and their wives will then create and populate that universe by their off spring. The first thing they do is...... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES !! If you talk to a JEHOVAH WITNESS about their founder Charles Taze Russell who invented the movement in 1870. If you were to say that it is heresy for Charles Russell to say that Jesus was really Michael the Arch Angel that came to earth and became Jesus for a period of time and is now back being an Angel. The first thing they do is..... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a MUSLIM about their founder Muhammad who invented the movement in 570 AD. If you were to say that it is heresy Muhammad to say that Jesus was just a minor prophet and not God in the flesh. The first thing they do is.... DEFEND THE FOUNDER!! DEFEND THE HIS DISCIPLES!! If you talk to a CALVINIST about their founder John Calvin who invented the movement in 1536. If you were to say that it is heresy for John Calvin to say Quote "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) "QUICK DEFEND THE FOUNDER NO MATTER HOW EVIL IT SOUNDS!" TRUTH IN LOVE
I was Reformed before Calvinism was cool. While I was excited in all the interest, it twisted and diluted the term “Reformed.” And it did it produce confessional believers as much as it produced “The Five Solas” as an exciting condensation of doctrine. Now we have “Reformed” Baptist church’s popping up as though one can properly use those two words together. One cannot be Reformed and Baptistic, but here we are. I am grateful in as much as the YRR movement brought a renewal of interest in Reformation but it brought a syncretism that is not Reformed. I’m not saying that the syncretism produced is not Christian, of course.
To me what is somewhat convincing of the Paul Washer doctrine I guess you could say is the major conversions some of these folks seem to have when you watch these videos of folks who thought they were saved and then come to true regenerate faith borne again . I mean you watch the video on his wife she was a missionary for years and then wasn’t saved until 10 years after marrying Washer , that’s where the introspection comes in and makes you think ....like do we have to reach a certain level of Will in our heart before being truly saved by God . A lot of the old famous preachers taught “ so you accepted Jesus , bus has he accepted you “ while today it’s add Jesus to your life say this prayer fill out this card . Many seem to truly have a new heart and mind that’s changed every part of there life , while it just seems others are trying to live more morally in line with the Bible outside of their will , I don’t know but it makes you think watching those videos “ I’ll be honest “ conversions .
Hi Dr Cooper! Appreciate your scholarship, your candor. I’m caught somewhere between Calvinism and Lutheranism - couldn’t shake the conviction of a limited atonement (which I still believe Scripture testifies to), but also couldn’t deny the Scriptural basis for absolution, & the sacraments as taught by Luther. I’m attending a Lutheran Church currently, feeling a bit of an outsider theologically, but welcomed by the pastor and parishioners. My 2c, anyway. Thanks for your videos!
Calvinist or Lutheran? One Cult is as bad as the other. Why not just follow Jesus and be a Christian? Hitler also lists Martin Luther as one of his role models for his Nazi party! Hitler took to heart Luther's solution for the Jewish problem. Hitler also said in one of his speeches "Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing.” (Adolf Hitler, Hitler’s speeches, edited by Prof. N.H. Baynes [oxford, 1942], pg. 369.) Quote from Luthers own writings: “Burn their synagogues. Forbid them all that I have mentioned above. Force them to work and treat them with every kind of severity, as Moses did in the desert and slew three thousand… If that is no use, we must drive them away like mad dogs, in order that we may not be partakers of their abominable blasphemy and of all their vices, and in order that we may not deserve the anger of God and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Let everyone see how he does his. I am excused.” (About the Jews and Their Lies,’ quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 290.) “ If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham” (Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413.) “The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves.”(Weimar, Vol. 53, Pg. 502.) Luther was a Calvinist before Calvin. Luther teaches: “…with regard to God, and in all that bears on salvation or damnation, (man) has no ‘free-will’, but is a captive, prisoner and bond slave, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan.” (From the essay, ‘Bondage of the Will,’ ‘Martin Luther: Selections From His Writings, ed. by Dillenberger, Anchor Books, 1962 p. 190.) “…we do everything of necessity and nothing by ‘free-will’; for the power of ‘free-will’ is nil…” (Ibid., p. 188.) “Man is like a horse. Does God leap into the saddle? The horse is obedient and accommodates itself to every movement of the rider and goes whither he wills it. Does God throw down the reins? Then Satan leaps upon the back of the animal, which bends, goes and submits to the spurs and caprices of its new rider… Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. God is the author of what is evil as well as of what is good, and, as He bestows happiness on those who merit it not, so also does He damn others who deserve not their fate.” (‘De Servo Arbitrio’, 7, 113 seq., quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, pp. 266-267.) “His (Judas) will was the work of God; God by His almighty power moved his will as He does all that is in this world.” (De servo Arbitrio, against man’s free will.) Calvin teaches the same thing. God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) “thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5) “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11) You Calvinists have a rich heritage that goes back to the garden when the real founder of Calvinism said and I quote. "Did God really say...... to Eve. Now you Have Calvinistic Reformed Churches all over the World saying. " Did God really say He doesn't want to save all people.... Or " Did God really say that Jesus died for every person...... Same lie different mouths preaching it! TRUTH IN LOVE
@@truth7416 😂Being a confessional Lutheran is nothing to do with Luther’s personal views or all his books. Being a confessional Lutheran just means that you believe that the book of concord is an accurate interpretation of scripture. The fact it’s called “Lutheranism” was given to them by outsiders.
@@obscuredictionary3263 But why follow a man made religion and call yourself by its founder? Why not call yourself a Christian? It is like saying. Being a confessional Nazi is nothing to do with Hitlers personal views or all his books. Christianity is no game. There are consequences for false religion!
@@truth7416 "Lutheran" was a derogatory term made up by their Catholic opponents. Originally they just called themselves "Evangelical" which comes from this Greek word εὐαγγέλιον which means "gospel". When Reformed theology became big Lutherans needed to distinguish themselves so the name ended up sticking. Even today some Lutherans wish they weren't called that.
As a former member (50 years) of the Evangelical Lutheran Church (ELCA) I have found my having been drawn to the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) to have been the best decision of my life thus far. Being in a church where the Word of God is held to be inerrant is so much better where "truth" is relative as is found in so called evangelical churches.
Can you unpack the sacraments for a calvinist (or maybe former calvinist) trying time understand? Or...can you unpack limited atonement and how you jumped from Calvinism to Lutheranism?
You've posted quite a lot on this channel in the last couple of hours. You have more specific questions than a podcast can answer. You should start attending different churches and talk to their informed laypeople and pastors.
The only way a ''calvinist'' can study the genuinely reformational teaching on the sacraments (real presence of Christ, continuation of the incarnation, for the forgiveness of our sins) is to first study Calvin's Institutes (where you will surprisingly discover how ''calvinists'' are not real calvinian in their teachings) and then to study the Book of Concord.
Your point about people moving on to cultural fights is apt. I think that people are more willing to fight for the things that are important to them at that stage in their life. When you're a single college guy, you're more likely to try and convince other people. When you have a family, you're more likely to care about the wider culture because it affects yourself and your family. When you're older, you tend to care more about ensuring that there is still a place for you (and your family) with other people (community). Unfounded assertions, I know, but it seems to me to be more of a progression of cultural battles than losing interest in any particular topic.
So many different ways the Bible can be interpreted....which is the correct interpretation? Answer to that: to which Church did Jesus say He would stay with until the end of time?
To answer your question: to which Church did Jesus say He would stay with until the end of time? The answer is the spiritual community of all those throughout the world who believe they are justified and forgiven through faith alone in Christ without the admixture of works. The church which regards the papacy as having been established by Christ and which agrees with the teachings of the popes is a false church which has been deceived by the Antichrist. It elevates one of the Apostles, namely Peter, to a status he never had through misinterpretation of various Scripture passages especially Matthew 16:13-20. This church then falsely claims that Peter passed on the authority (he never in actual fact possessed) to rule Christ's Church to his supposed successors the popes. This church is basically built on a gigantic pack of lies and deception and in no way can be considered Christ's true Church.
@@Edward-ng8oo Edward, I grew up in the Methodist denomination and we were always told that the Church of the New Testament, and the Church of today, was/is a loose invisible spiritual Church made up of believers of all denominations. I remember thinking, even as a child, that is not true----the Church of the New Testament is a visible organized body, there is only one Church and not thousands of denominations, and the apostles are clearly in charge. If Paul did not have real authority in the Church why would anyone have listened to his epistles? If Paul was just another believer the people at Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, etc.would have laughed at his epistles and thrown them in the garbage. See Acts 1:20. And if you will read the first few chapters of Acts you will see that Peter is clearly the one in charge.
@@GeorgePenton-np9rh The subject of Roman Catholicism has been discussed elsewhere. See for instance Dr Cooper's video: Did Jesus Found the Roman Catholic Church? and my comments below that.
Our relationship with the YRR was very similar early on. I went from a BBFI Baptist to an SBC Baptist during my closest proximity to it. The part of your comments here that resonate with me is the idea that not everything has a clear answer. I remember this dawning on me while reading a John Frame article about Infralapsarianism where he said that the Scriptures are probably not as clear on these topics as many theologians claim them to be. At any rate, I did my MA Thesis on Jonathan Edwards, I am still probably more or less reformed soteriology, but I don't think the Bible is concerned with giving us all the answers to all the mysteries of the metaphysics of salvation, and I certainly am far far far less earnest to fight about these things online than I used to be.
Related, how I got into all this stuff to start with wasn't even so much the New Calvinism movement per se as it was a youth pastor who I argued with for over an our about soteriology and finally he gave me a list of long Biblical texts, told me to go read them, and come back to him the next week and report what I thought they taught about salvation. That formed a general foundation for my soteriology that hasn't been shifted much at all in the 18 years since.
Kind of dope. Ive been a Gospel emcee since Flames 1st album. I still do it. Never became a calvinist but i didnt realize all of the rappers i listened to were calvinist, until i learned alot of the terminology. It actually catapulted me into refuting calvinism for the last 7 years. I still do some stuff with Dr Flowers. I was soooo encouraged when i saw your interview with flame.
The issue really seems to be that people make the secondary issues primary issues. Not just with Calvinism but as someone who was in the hyper charismatic movement I see this too. When I became a Christian I was into charismatic and Calvinist theology
I came to reformed theology quite serendipitousely back in 2005 at tge height of the YRR movement and I was 25 myself. I still consider myself reformed or broadly calvinistic, but I've matured more in my application of it. I'd say thats number 12 or 13 on a list if things I consider important to me in my theological makeup.
18:51 The "problem" with this is certainly that we all bring our presupposition to the text. So we read the text always in a manner that is consistent with our presuppositions. The questions arises, then, what the right presuppositions are. And here we all are dependent on the Holy Ghost because it is He who guides us into all truth eventually.
That doesn’t mean you cannot consider changing your presuppositions. The problem is, many Calvinists come to the scriptures with the mindset that “Calvinism must be true, no matter what”, which is a solid path to bad theology.
@@craigjoyner9857 Presuppositions are not things we usually think about, but things we think with. So, yes, everyone hold to their presuppositions as being true. Otherwise, they wouldn't be presuppositions. That goes for Calvinists as well as for all other positions. As for my part I hold to the reformed confessions because they are the most coherent in the sense that they grant the presuppositions that explain the text best. If they are true, well, only God knows. As I said a year ago we ought to be dependent upon the Holy Ghost in our understanding. And there is no place for arrogance, pride or anger. I hope you pray with me that He leads us into the whole truth. Have a great day.
@@Gisbertus_Voetius being guided by the Holy Spirit, doesn’t mean forsake common sense and the plain teaching of the texts. The Bible says Jesus reconciled all things in earth and in heaven. The atonement was for all. That’s in direct contradiction to the reformed position.
@@craigjoyner9857 We say that God has a specific reason why He doesn't save everybody. And: You say the very same thing, if you are not an universalist. The only different between us here is that you claim to know what that reason is, namely libertarian free will, while we hold that that reason is found in God alone.
@@Gisbertus_Voetius the real Difference is that my position comes from scripture, and your position comes from somewhere else. Let’s go to scripture. Colossians 1:20-23 KJV [20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, 👉🏿by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 👈🏿 [21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] 👉🏿If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, 👈🏿which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 KJV [18] 👉🏿And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation👈🏿 ; [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. [20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though 👉🏿God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.👈🏿. [21] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 1. God reconciled all things back to himself. 2. He did so via Jesus Christ accomplished work. 3. God sent the ministers of reconciliation (the apostles), with the message of reconciliation. 4. We are urged to be reconciled, and if we submit in faith, grounded and settled, we will be presented as holy and blameless, as the scripture say. Please support your position with scripture.
I think where you falter a lot is seeing the Reformed community as strictly the "five points" and ignoring the confessional communities, it's something that seems to be more of a strawman for those of us, like myself, who aren't so simplistic about theology.
I came in to the reformed tradition later in life, through the confessional, presbyterian strain so I wasn't part of the young restless and reformed. I was mostly exposed to it through people like my former pastor, the OPC denomination, Herman Bavinck, Louis Berkoff, Calvin, and some theologians from Westminster seminary. In a way I'm kind of glad that I didn't get my start from the YRR movement. Not that I necessarily think badly of it but it seemed more of a trendy thing to do. Even though I am a reformed in the Calvinist sense, I have tremendous respect for Luther and do read him as well.
It has been my experience that so many people who seemed to have started out so strong in the early 2000's, only to apostatize later, has been because Calvinism's emphasis is on the ultimacy of scripture, and the scriptures emphasize (among other things) that we have been saved to be holy, and to live holy lives (1 Peter 1:14-16); it also teaches that hard work is to be rewarded (whoever won't work, won't eat), and in the 2000's we saw a tremendous rise within secular culture of the acceptance (nay, celebration!) of things like sodomy, so called "gay-marriage," philosophical discussions regarding the nature of truth and the freedom of the will that emphasized the ultimacy of man... But this time also saw a loss of work ethic - demands of an ever increasing minimum wage to be paid for an ever decreasing amount of work. And as is so often the case, unless someone's faith is genuine, the desire to please himself and others will always win out over his desire to please God, so because someone didn't want to offend his gay friends, he gave up those doctrines that told him that such a lifestyle is sinful, and, because a life of personal holiness is difficult, and because more and more people are not willing to work at the difficult things, we began to see a rise of the "nones," even among those who once labelled themselves as "reformed."
YRR was a calvinist movement... not a reformed movement. Calvinism is just a branch from a greater foundation of Reformed Theology. Calvinist like Piper (New Covenant Theology) or John MacArthur (Dispensationalism) are in no way Reformed since they reject Covenant Theology, Redemptive History Hermeneutics, The Means of Grace, Law/Gospel distinction, etc.
JOHN PIPER QUOTE FROM HIS WEBSITE God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . .
@@truth7416 Do you think that God created the world knowing that there would be rape, murder, the holocaust, etc? If God knew, why did He create the world knowing that no matter what God did, many people would suffer and go to hell? This seems like a schizophrenic God. If you created a world knowing that most people would go to hell and suffer and that you couldn't do anything to stop this evil, then you are directly responsible for creating an evil world.
@@jonah6449 God can know everything that can be known but ! Free Will cannot be predicted. God knew that we cannot handle free will and that there would be disobedience. (The purpose of life on Earth is to master free will. That would be another long story) 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded-nor did it enter my mind-that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin. Jeremiah 32:35 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:27 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 13:3 5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. Genesis 6:5-6 9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well. Luke 7:9-10 4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith. Mark 6:4-7 The words and phrases are crystal clear, directly communicated from Gods Word to mans ears. Only a person with a false agenda would twist them to conform to their church tradition. God is saying He did not know by the following phrases. “nor did it enter my mind” “and perhaps” “to find out” “the Lord regretted” “he was amazed” “He was amazed” These are Gods Words to us and we must trust them to be true! In no way am I saying God is not as great as He is, or limited in any way! God by his Sovereign will has given to mankind and angels “Free Will” knowing full well that there would be unknowable consequences. TRUTH IN LOVE
@@truth7416 So God created a world knowing of all the evil possibilities; yet still created this world. Even after creating this world, God still sees all the wickedness of men and cannot stop it. God knew and continues to know that He is helpless in saving the world. God wants to save the mess He created but he cant do it. No matter what he does, says, or tries to do - the creation which he caused is still going to hell and suffer (majority). If a landowner creates a swimming pool that he knows will kill many people, yet still builds it, would not that landowner still be guilty of killing many people since he knew many would die. What if for many years, people continue to die in the swiming pool this landowner created, yet he does not tear down this swimming pool. Not only that, he punishes them for dying in the swimming pool. Lets say the landowner even puts a warning signal and a lifeguard, yet people still die. The landowner, the warning signs, and the lifeguards are all imcompetent in saving the people. Would you not think something is wickedly wrong with this landowner? Why would he still continue this suffering? It seems it is the same thing with your version of God. He is incompetent in saving a world a created. He is unloving in continuing this process for many years knowing (from past experiences) that people will not believe.
Good stuff Dr Jordan. I like the part about our eyes opening as we get older because we realise its not so black and white or as we say in Asia cut and dried. The aspect of Reformed and Calvinism being also a trend is also very legit.
I don't think one has to be obsessively introspective. But we are told to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith. I'm an Anglican (although still a moderate Calvinist) so I do think we can look to the sacraments for assurance. I don't believe they are automatically efficacious though. I think my position would be presumptive regeneration. And I would tend to hold a spiritual or mysterious view of the Eucharist.
ALL Christianity, including Anglican, is based on the misogyny, racism, and homophobia of the Iron Age biblical text, and belief in a genocidal god that advocated for the rape of women and children, and murdered the entire population of the world in a petulant fit of rage, except for Noah and his incestuious family, to show his love. Despicable.
I heard in this video all the reasons I left lcms. I’m sure there are still living, active Lutheran churches somewhere, this has not been my experience. On paper the lcms is good, but I’m trying to live for the Lord, raise children, be a husband, work hard at my job, and be salt and light. The Lutheran church has little substance to speak into these lower kingdoms (I know it’s a misrepresentation of two kingdom theory, but that is how it ends up where the rubber meets the road) Ps: I do appreciate your work, just still feeling frustrated.
If you keep trusting in the lord Jesus Christ and his grace. You will be fine. We have the holy ghost that never leaves us. It isnt the ecclesia but God himself that matters.
Well here in germany , evangelicalism is still very feeling-based . But what I found interesting was, that calvinist ideas like "everything that happens is a part of God's fixed plan and we can't change it and we don"t have a free will" have sneaked their way into german pietism.
These are real brain-twisters. The Lutheran doctrine, as I have always understood it, is to the effect that man cannot choose to have faith, but that the gift of faith can be given to him only by God. Apparently God gives that saving faith to some, but not to others. So how are we really differing from the Calvinists where they teach double predestination? If God chooses to whom He will give faith and to whom He will not, how is that not the doctrine of double predestination rejected by Lutheranism? If faith is God's work and God's choice as to whom He will give it, then how is the Calvinist doctrine of election wrong? Do Lutherans believe and teach that God gives saving faith to every single sinner, but that some reject it and are therefore lost? Not to my knowledge. So how do Lutherans and Calvinists really differ on election when it comes right down to it?
Γεια σου, Ιορδάνη - I do appreciate what you have written there, but I don't quite see how it refutes the doctrine of double predestination. I agree with you that the Lutheran doctrine seems more appealing and is probably more comforting than the Calvinist one, but its relative comfort and appeal do not prove that it is right. It cannot really be said that the Bible absolutely does not teach double predestination, otherwise the Calvinists would not understand Romans 9 to teach it. Perhaps they emphasize it too much, and the Lutherans don't like it, but I don't think that we can reasonably say that there is no Scripture supporting the understanding that God controls all things, including the eternal destinies of men. Please understand - I myself am a Lutheran, and I'm not arguing in favor of Calvinism with respect to any of their other doctrinal points, their rejection of the efficacy of the Means of Grace, Real Presence etc. Nevertheless the question bears asking - if we understand that saving faith is given to some and not to others, and that it is God who works saving faith in whomever He wills, and withholds it from whom He wills, then how can we properly say that we reject the notion or the doctrine of double predestination? I don't think we can truthfully say that there is no support in Scripture for God's working of saving faith in some, and of His withholding from others that faith which would be necessary for their salvation. I am not satisfied that just because a doctrine seems less comforting that it therefore must be false. Surely we don't determine soundness of doctrine by comfort. Universalism is arguably the most comforting doctrine of all, but it is false. And many churches now teach that there is no such thing as Hell, because they feel that it robs people of comfort.
@@hansimgluck4965, the double predestination is not at all a biblical teaching. Never in church history someone dared to give such an interpretation. It is ''heresy'' which means ''logical approach to divine, mysterious and unexplained by the human mind and capacity truths''. Even Calvin didn't say it the way ''calvinists'' (who don't at all follow Calvin's theology and it is so odd they call themselves as such) say it, give emphasis on it and teach it. Be confessional lutheran and don't bother about this issue. For me, the main issue in what has to do with Calvin is that we must show to the ''calvinists'' that Calvin was a sacramentalist as we are. This is the main issue and not the so the ''double predestantion'' one. I say this also. Calvin is a master of the french language, which is the language of ''geometry et finesse''. With their american/cowboy mentality they can't understand him and they misinterpret him. Read Calvin's Intimate and tell me then if Calvin meant with this dogma what they say he meant. And if they like him so much what they don't accept his sacramentalist persuasion also? Greeting from a rainy Greece.
Oh, my friend, when I was in Greece, it never rained. The sun shone every day and we were red as lobsters. The relief was καρπούζι which cost 50¢. Greece is very different now. Believe me, all my sympathy is with you, and not with Calvinism or any other "ism". But what of the one to whom God, for whatever reason, does not give the gift of saving faith? The one who has had no exposure or access to the Means of Grace? Can we say that he is responsible for his own perdition? Even if we call everything else heresy which the Calvinists teach, must we call them heretics for their understanding that God acts to save some and not others?
The problem with the major leaders of YRR is they weren't bringing people on to something more historic and stable - in part it's because they couldn't as a lot of them were staunch charismatics. Really they should have been introducing these young men to the historic creeds and confessions.
I was in a Reformed (Presbyterian) Church for a very long time before becoming a LCMS Lutheran 5 yrs ago. Back then and nowadays many had at best only a cursory understanding of Calvinism. I don't recall hearing sermons on limited atonement/double predestination. In fact I had pastors who said they were 3 or 4 point Calvinists, not 5 point.
I'll speak from my own experience. Your insight into YRR with introspection, sanctification, & disheartening at mortification are valid. Sadly, many YRR went at it alone (reading on their own & not being discipled, disciplined, challenged and strengthened by the body of Christ), read only parts of book (i.e. "Mortification of Sin"), and did devalue the sacraments. Many read more theology than the Bible. Many lacked the humility to rely on the ordinary means of grace. I knew scores of YRR who could tell me the most recent theology book they had bought or podcast they listened to. Many YRR read a lot about the the Bible but were not steeping themselves in the word. Many YRR I knew could wax eloquently about doctrines (often parroting the most recent theologian) but were not doing their own search of the Scriptures. Many YRR said they were Calvinists or Reformed but really they just meant just the solas. Many YRRs neglected daily private prayer. I would hear about Luther's book to his barber on prayer but neglected actually praying. Many YRRs were intellectually snobish. Their pride showed as they spoke of election & predestination but their hearts were not lifted up in doxology for the work of Christ. They knew facts but knew not the Lamb. Again, this is just my experience. But the gospel, sacraments, and doctrine were abstracted from the person and work on Christ. I write this as one who skirted the YRR camps but never found myself cool enough to be at the heart of it. Oh I wanted to be. I tried to be. I was guilty of many of these things. But, at the end of the day in God's sovereignty I was given confessional pastors who kept pointing me to the standards. When I would get sloppy they would point me to the standards. When I would get prideful they would admonish me. When I thought I knew it all they engaged me in conversation, prayed for me, made me read the Bible, and gave me books to read. I'm not surprised by your analysis of YRR. It does make me sad though.
I think you’re right that for many of the young restless and reformed movement was a starting point towards confessional Faith. I came out of an evangelical background and would’ve considered myself part of the movement in college. However, it was more of a beginning point then an ending point. I now attend A Dutch reformed church that holds to the three forms of unity. Confessional Calvinism was the ending point for many others like me.
@@user-nj1rc9hk4h I like a lot of Lutherans and have learned from them, but there are some things in Lutheran theology that wouldn't allow me to be Lutheran.
I think there is an aspect that you may have touched on only briefly, if at all: group identity. Young people in general, and young men in particular, forge group identities in their teens, largely through school social connections, the Breakfast Club cliques and the associated hierarchies and rejection thereof by other groups, for lack of a better term. As you leave high school and are cast out into the larger role, reestablishing these group identities is far more difficult. IN the larger world there's both a larger selection of choices and more nebulous requirements for entry. this is something military recruiters have exploited, for good or ill, for decades, to wit "The Few Good Men" or "Be all that you can be in the Army". The doctrine of Limited Atonement, especially in its naive form, grants that ultimate group identity: specially selected and blessed by God Himself, from before time.
I grew up reformed baptist and then physically encountered the Presence of the Lord and began to run with believers in the charismatic movement. Being in churches like Upperroom or Bethel, I know so many other ex-reformed kids who went from this into the charismatic movement. You can see this with Mark Driscoll moving into the Charismatic movement now. Matt Chandler even teaches miracles and prophecy in his congregation. I feel like a significant amount didn't just pursue older orthodoxy.
When I first became a Calvinist 3 or 4 years ago I hated it (then loved it.) All these years I thought I was saved I doubted because Calvinists kept pushing the "God chooses you and you have no say in rejecting it or not." So I constantly questioned my faith if I struggled or wandered. A ping pong effect between pride "when I was doing well" and despair "when I wasn't." Eventually with the help of my husband who loved Lutheranism he pointed me to "ask the pastor" RU-vid channel and his videos on the sacraments were eye opening! I was so afraid of Rome in one of my phases I avoided anything that looked like it. But once I started to read about lutheranism and ask many questions it was like a light bulb went on. I realized for so long I was questioning Gods Word when He said: "this is my body." As a Calvinist I had to interpret it in a way to line up with my doctrine. It was so confusing! I was and am NEVER going back. I am now 100 percent Lutheran all the way. 😊
This seems like an odd line of logic, but maybe I'm missing something. Jesus also said he was "the door" and compared himself to "bread." I'll never for the life of me understand why the one time Jesus compares himself to bread (again) that now we need to start taking it literally.
I was baptized into the faith at a Calvinist Bible Presbyterian church in 2003, and as much as I do appreciate the way that Bible Presbyterianism (rooted in the Calvinist confession via the Westminster Confession of Faith) rigourously explained the faith in contrast with the Charismatic churches I had attended prior, the TULIP doctrines were things I never took to. Add to that, I really felt very unwelcome and have heard sermons in that church where they preached things like the Rapture, election etcetera, and they refuse to say 'God loves you' for fear that it was said to non-believers. It felt a lot like a privilege club and conflicted heavily with the God I knew who loves all to want to come down and die for us all. It was at that point I left.
Three years late, but I have a different story, I was late to YRR, being dispensational Arminian before. Many of my friends were apart of this as well, we got into Washer, MacArthur, and Piper and started caring a lot about the 5 points and all that. Most if not all of us are still 5-pointers, but there was movement away from YRR toward other things. YRR seemed to be just adding Calvinistic soteriology to big-Eva and dispensationalism. There wasn’t any understanding of the underlying covenant theology or sacramentology that goes into Calvinism. There seemed to be a looking down on traditions and a “no creed but Christ” mindset. I think from this there was also a lack of understanding of theology proper and Christology. The doctrines of grace were put on such a high pedestal that the most important theology was neglected. The switch for me came when I switched from MacArthur to Sproul and began to understand the true Reformed tradition. I’m a proper Presbyterian now, and though I appreciate my YRR days, they were a transition from dispensationalism and Arminianism, not a place to stay.
I went to school at a very Calvinist school at what seems to have been in my best estimation the beginning of the end for the Neo-Calvinist movement. In all honesty I got to see a lot of the disillusionment with the Calvinist worldview start to take place. When I started there I was one of the few non-Calvinists and by the end of my time there I would say that about 1/5 of the students were coming to either moderate 4 point Calvinism or as in my case a Classical Arminian position.
You’re exactly right about the emptiness of evangelicalism. Shallow, no answers, “just love Jesus” was the only thing that mattered. No depth. Also, the empty promises that don’t come to fruition, like “God has a wonderful plan for your life.” We erroneously take many promises that were given to national Israel and apply them to the body of Christ. And, yes, real life hits and you learn you were misled. And, then, hopefully you crack open the Scriptures and learn truth, not man’s ideas that you were told. I’ll never forgot when I did a word study on throne and kingdom and realized that Jesus is not currently on His throne, but sitting at the right hand of His Father on His Father’s throne. That’s when I started praying, “God, please reveal every lie I’m believing.” It’s been a great journey. BUT, Calvinism is still growing like a weed. I see all of the young adults around me being seduced into it, including my children. 💔 So, evangelicals are coming to Calvinism through the in door, and from what you describe, at the other end through the exit door, Calvinists are leaving going into Roman Catholicism and the nearby Protestant denominations.
I certainly got imto the movement (quite late, though), but I am now in the process of abandoning it for cllasical protestantism. While my convictions would lfit with the 3 forms of unity / westminster most closely, I feel closer to Lutheranism than to piper and macarthur
I'm 18, and a recent convert from Pentecostalism (I was raised in the AG) to Confessional Presbyterianism. I do not like the YRR movement for many of the same things you brought up. I especially have had issues with Paul Washer, Tim Conway, etc. for their excessive focus on fruit, etc. To be fair, there are times when the Jonathan Edwards fire is needed. But they are constant about it. And you're absolutely right about a lot of it being a fad and a trend.
I hold a calvinistic view of Scripture but i balance it out with the theology of early church fathers. Reformed theology seems closer to what's being taught in Scripture such as God's sovereignty, hardening, election etc
ALL Christianity, including Lutheran, is based on the misogyny, racism, and homophobia of the Iron Age biblical text, and belief in a genocidal god that advocated for the rape of women and children, and murdered the entire population of the world in a petulant fit of rage, except for Noah and his incestuious family, to show his love. Despicable.
There is nothing funny about men who stand on the foundation of John Calvin, absolutely nothing! "God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.( John Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6) What slander, what lies to say God delights in the destruction of most of the human race He has lovingly created! What slander, what lies to say God has doomed people from birth! What slander, what lies to say God is the author of evil and forces men to carry out these evil acts and then condemns them for being His puppets. If you stand on the shoulders of Calvin YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN BUT A CULT FOLLOWER. Think long and hard on that. Your in a Cult even more dangerous than a Mormon of JW. Why? Because Calvinism hides the ugly and LOOKS like Christianity on the outside, but it is not! It is masquerading which satan is so good at! TRUTH IN LOVE
I'm not YRR. I got into Reformed Theology after it stopped being cool. And now I don't really know what to do. I have a church family for the first time since childhood and I'm active in my church. How do I leave? How do I get my wife to believe that I'm not going crazy? How do I leave my pastor who is one of my best friends? What if going to Lutheranism is just another trend that I jump on and I end up burning more bridges?
The terms Reformed and Calvinism should not be used interchangeably. They are not identical. Sadly there are far too many inaccurate and misleading caricatures of both terms in use by opponents.
@@Mygoalwogel It depends on how you define Calvinism. There are so many definitions out there. If you mean the five points or TULIP then that would be fine. The issue is that the Reformed tradition is so much more than TULIP and involves so many more theologians than John Calvin.
The Comment is For Dr Cooper, not sure how to email or contact you separately, I agree and disagree with you in some points of the video, which I’ll leave to the side for now, the big question I have is , you spoke of progressive upward sanctification, explain to me what the opposite of that looks like ? Or what sanctification looks like in your view ? And provide biblical texts please, I get that progressive sanctification can lead to disheartening, if you don’t lean on by grace alone” and it can lead to legalism for those who don’t have a well rounded biblical view of the doctrines of Calvinism. Would like to see you do a video on this.
The switch from evangelicalism to the young restless and Reformed churches was easy since both looked and felt so similar: buildings, worship music, format, decoration, dress, etc. Although they offered the intellectual stimulation missing from evangelicalism they still maintained the same confusion of law and gospel perhaps with even more emphasis on the law and even less ephasis on the gospel.
