Why the Perfect Speedrun of Punch Out Will Never Happen 

"Then two weeks later, a runner by the name of me got this time..."

Yep. He’s been a Punch Out speedrunner for many years and has held records in many of the game’s categories.

@@Caddynars he also never mentions himself, which is super humble of him

He’s a speed-running documentary channel, he’s literally the king of losers.

@@HarambaeXelonmuskfans someone who gets a bag + is revered by a massive community what a loser

Learning is a benefit in itself, and I still know what you mean. Who knows you may make a friend because of some random info you remember from this video!

Having fun is a benefit isnt it?

@@Maxawa0851 I feel like the whole comment went over your head. I loved the video. Yes it was entertaining, which is why I loved the video, even though it will not benefit me in any other way beyond just sitting and enjoying the video. Which is high praise for a video, and how he delivers the content.

@@ZykoMike yeah i know it was a compliment, but I mean that I'd consider fun itself to be a benefit

​@@ZykoMike sound like a kid

In my opinion, it looks like Little Mac is grunting when he uses it

I thought he was looking at Doc Louis to see if he is proud of Mac using his signature punch

I got the impression that he put so much power into it that it's painful to him.

His face always reminds me of the hardcover comic book way back when, because I'd never seen the game played and he landed a star punch at the end.

GAY THEORY: HE IS A SOULESS SOCIOPATH AND WANTS TO HIT HIS OPPONENT MORE, SO WHEN HE KNOCKS THEM DOWN WITH LESS STRIKES TO THE FACE HE FEELS EMPTY INSIDE.

Really?

@@seanmaguire548 Yep!

check out his Alt, named Summoning Alt. Should be a vid of 2:16.48 Sandman!

yooo awesome

​@@AndromedasCartoonprobably because ppl wanted others to see it

And piston Honda’s 1 attack in one part was 1 in 114 Edit: it’s at 1:00:06

honestly tho thats same as it is queueing any competitive online game

I mean yeah, that odds of that aren't that bad

For something that has yet to be achieved by humans 1 in 114 is indeed really good odds.

Gacha players: "I like those odds."

Obviously a skill issue.

Clearly a lack of human determination

They are just bad ngl

So you're telling me there's a chance

That's like a 1 in 3 shot at that point

Reminds me of Wirtual. Really good and knowledgeable about Trackmania where his video's are so amusing to look at even tho I don't even play that game all that much

Wild how the chance of any given punch out speedrunner making a series of speedrunning documentaries is higher than many of the probabilities featured in the video

That's true for a lot of games it seems lol. Karl Jobst, Kosmic, MitchFlowerPower, Goose, I can think of off the top of my head.

NES development in general was crazy when you realize just how weak the NES is

​@@kingkrispy5289​ Honestly most of the maths here is well within the power of the NES, it is nowhere near complex enough to be a struggle for even a simple computer. Not to say it is easy to make that, I imagine the NES was programmed using a language that spoke directly with the hardware and was not abstracted, something like assembly, so it would be quite difficult to code, but computers are really good at maths. Most of what the NES struggled with is scale, there simply was not much space for graphical, anything. So having a large area with a lot of variation in sprites and tiles is very difficult. Mike tysons punchout is not technically impressive for an NES game, it's most impressive in terms of design. The design of the game works to the NES's strengths. The graphics are simple, leaving a lot of space for making the character sprites do complex actions along with having them be readable. This is what is most impressive for this game. The NES has such a teeny tiny amount of space to render sprites and to store animations for sprites. I imagine that there is some hacky fucking shit going behind the scenes to make it work, I would guess they have to fight the hardware in order to assign enough ram specifically to sprites which would otherwise be assigned to tiles, but I am not sure. Definitely some bullshit hack that caused at least 3 people to take a day off after they figured it out. You also have to remember that everything with sprites is in 8x8 tiles, making it even more unwieldy than it would first seem. The maths ain't that intense, something that a much weaker computer than the NES could do with ease. But the graphics, getting those to be readable, and to run at 60fps consistently, that is pretty fuckin dope. While the stance thing OP mentioned is cool, really it is at most a few extra bits of information. You assign the inputs of the punches, then assign a different animation to those punches. Most likely they have a default damage and timing for the punches, with the difference between the punches being a variable. A cool ass detail but technically not impressive.

@@jambott5520 I don’t remember leaving a comment here and I’m fasting Ramadan so all I’ll say is that I vaguely remember the punch out cart having some memory on board just to help with the gigantic sprites, probably raw graphical data issues, idk, ima explode, thanks for the comment tho

​@@kingkrispy5289Yeah, that's extra storage for the game, I believe. Castlevania 3 is also extra large in raw size for an NES game, it probably also had more storage built-in.

Mac: “These odds be one of me favorites Don”

Little Mac has his opponent throw the fight because of a gambling and substance abuse problem he has after just finding out he got his sister-in-law pregnant. It's actually a really dark storyline for a kid's video game.

@@mikemurphy5898 Proof?

​@@mikemurphy5898 Where do you even find such outlandish claims?

@@diegordi1394gamefaqs probably how much you bet he’s misread the q a few times

No matter how good you think you are, there's always someone better. That's what my mom would always say to me. Lol idk if that's good or bad.

I still think that's pretty great; sure there are people who are so dedicated as to analyze the game down to its programming and statistics and whatnot, but when you've got no tools to assist you other than the original hardware and your wits, I'd say that that's something to be proud of.

@@brad9284 That's also one of the biggest and most humble lessons from Dragon Ball

@@orlandofurioso7329 *laughing in jiren*😂

@@brad9284 SummoningSalt on Mike Tyson: am i a joke to you?

"had me rolling" jabs?

it gets worse before it gets worse

Holy crap...you're right. In fact, it's more likely that another *you* will spontaneously materialize out of thin air...or win the lottery 20 times in succession.

​@@psychotheunsane7285 BUT would it be more likely for another you to pop into existence while also having a copy of punch out and a TV with a console and battery to play it with?

@@StreetcleanergamingProbably not, but why care when you can get cupcakes with your new friend!

Give it a few more big bangs

the odds of that are like. 1 in 10, to the 10th, to the 3200- or about the amount of years itll take for every atom in the universe to decay into stable elements.

Just shows who's on my mind for taking MY HONDA 1 WR. Kappa

Hehe

Me, reading this: okay.. TAS is an acronym for tool-assisted speedrun Also me, who’s been raised on DC and a lover of Batman: Punch Out: The Animated Series

@@spookydivorce I'd watch it.

@@spookydivorce I just heard about TAS a few weeks back. I am only a casual gamer but it is still interesting to me. When I was younger I was all about using GameGenie, GameShark, Pro-Action Replay. I don't yet know what the above "WR" means.

Yeah it's really interesting

Most video games come down to pattern recognition and how fast you can see those patterns

This along with stuff like the minimum a press and speedrun of Mario 64 is absolutely insane to me. Like it gets to the point where you could write a Mathematics doctorate dissertation about some of the stuff in the minimum A press challenge.

and i though the host didnt have a life......i was way off

Ah yes. My favorite Punch-Out character. ‘Lass Joe

@@ultimatedouchebag6760 This comment doesn't make any sense

So… No RNG - Glass Joe, Don Flamenco 1, and Great Tiger Humans have done / will do - Piston Honda 2, Von Kaiser, King Hippo, and Mr. Sandman Feasible for a human - Bald Bull 1 and Super Macho Man Mike Tyson (Dream luck heavily recommended but not required + 17 frame-perfect dodges) - Mike Tyson Requires Dream luck - Soda Popinski, Piston Honda 2, Don Flamenco 2 Not going to happen - Bald Bull 2

Dont insult me boy glass joe. He aint a quiter

You can practice using savestates, and then later do a run without them.

@@Rith9789just practice the rng

​@@gregmax19 I mean tbf im stoned and so them pointing out the obvious actually helped me 😂😂😂😂😂 I was here thinking they couldnt save state to practice strats 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️😂

I know I'm well late, but it really doesn't help you that those Eshop ports aren't amazing. There usually is notable input delay in comparison to original, or even emulated. So, it makes the whole thing that much harder when everything you do has 2-5 frames of lag on top of the normal timing.

It's almost mid 2024 (5/18/24 at 2:45am (est) for your convience)

It's 1 in 153,000 what are you talking about?

Punch out is always easy when you watch it being played. Then you try to olay it yourself and get reality checked.

When considering infinite time then your chances of doing it on the first attempt are the same as never accomplishing it

@@dspsblyuth Only if youre already as good as youll ever be

@@stitchfinger7678 60% of the time it works every time

@@dspsblyuth If you consider infinite time, the chances are 100% you'll get this run, so no they aren't anywhere close to the same. I don't care how big the exponent is, if it's not infinite then it's not infinite and therefore possible.

​@@TehGamesavera simple example: although statistically improbable, it is possible to flip a coin infinite times none of which are heads you could think of it as an infinite series of infinite attempts most of which result in a success at some point but some will never

Those are very good questions... that I have no idea how to calculate lol...

I mean summongsalt does hold all but 1 world record for mike tyson’s punch out which is weird to think about

He also just got SS WR too

Dick Stabbers. There are certain people who, if given the choice between nailing the prom queen vs. stabbing themselves in the dick, they’d stab their dick if it meant optimizing their run in one way or another. Dick Stabbers. Jick from KoL came up with this.

Summoning salt can get those odds.

@@zolli21 can he get them 3 times in a row?

Thanks! I appreciate it!

Didn't someone almost get the perfect SPO run but lost it at the very end?

Yeah, I saw that in Summoning Salt's video.

@@phantomgrape yep FatPotatoSeal The current WR by AwesomeAndy had a pace about a second slower but still had insane odds

the game keeps track of every input you make from power on (except on loading frames) So you can use that to scramble RNG. The RNG manipulation done in the TAS is just done through placing specific inputs in specific frames and there is always more than one possible way to get the outcome you want. The only thing is, a human simply cannot play to that level of precision. There would be far too many 1 frame taps, or pressing several buttons at the same time for an exact number of frames. The Hippo manipulation needs you to start in a specific 8 frame window that comes around every 256 frames. Also, the player has to have not pressed right or down since power on; and each button increases the scramblers value by a different amount per frame. (Technically if the player has pressed down for a multiple of 2 frames and Right for a multiple of 4 frames) they will have cancelled out in the scambler. I could go into it with a bit more depth but its unreasonable by an extreme margin to expect humans to play with this level of precision to manipulate most RNG events in the game.

Cookie clicker is quite an old game to use as an anology

@@thegamingfreak6807 Octodecillion being reachable reasonably is fairly new, though.

@@thegamingfreak6807 - Cookie Clicker still receives updates! Heck, it semi-recently released on Steam with music by C418.

@@camwoodstock adventure capitalist would be a better example

I will become the world's first octodecillionaire one day. Remember me when that day comes.

I know right

610 away. can’t wait :)

yoooo it’s at a mil. congrats

Im pretty sure it can be console verified, if it hasnt been already. But yeah, a human isnt pulling off some of these fights in isolation, let alone doing all the fights like this in a single run.

What's the song at 11 minutes discussing piston? I keep feeling like have it figured out then it vanishes from my mind. Nevermind didn't realize it was in the description

@@freakbag420 LOL, Forget what I said as well, I didn't recognize that song and Driver's, but still, such a recognizable ost. Feels so familiar.

Interesting. I calculated it at 12.20.7 by combining all current single level world records. I’ll have to recheck my math.

@@willberger3873 I could also be wrong

@@willberger3873 Remember that the current world record list does not include Glass Joe's automatic 42.00. The total of the current IL world records is 13:21.32

Im not sure what the ultimate goal I would be trying to attain here. I have TAS'd ( a long time ago) a run where a human would use their typical strats, but the game would always give the worst RNG. The TAS also assumed the player would eventually get good RNG, but never does. It was sort of interesting I suppose, but not a thing I really want to explain in depth ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-B8joML2rtlw.html

@@Papamanual As in, how long (barring any infinite recursion) can a Punch Out run be? Maximum knock downs, maximum retrys, maximum fight lengths. The "worse" the run the better.

@@Mobius14 the game is calculated with in-game time, so in theory, 2 hours 5 minutes and 950 milliseconds. idk if the .99 decimal is possible on hippo and sandy though

The math is wonky with a lot of variables but I think you're right

Getting up on 9 wont do anything since its already the last section of the fight. Also having full health doesnt dictate Sandmans refills at all.

@@Papamanual ah alr just wondering, since ive never played the game before but I know about 9-counts

Lots of people have perfect Tyson's (salt is the only one to complete a perfect fight with a phase 3 uppercut - he has multiple)

from power on, the RNG changes every frame (except on loading frames) in the same way every time, it takes 256 frames to reset to get back to the start. The natural pattern it takes is a little crazy to look at but its always the same every time. But that would mean its predictable... So there is an additional scrambler. There is another thing that keeps track of your inputs which can also scale from 0-255 and it changes with every input that is pressed on any frame (except loading frames). Even more than that, on frames where the game performs an RNG check, it performs 3 bit shifts then takes that value. On frames that perform 2 rng checks on the same frame. It performs the bit shift once for the first RNG check and then shifts again for the second RNG check. All in all, there isnt very much humans can do to control the RNG unless you know exactly how many frames to push every button for.

@@Papamanual Thanks for the great answer. I was wondering if inputs were factored in.

Definitely, maybe one day. Although that will be after it is improved to another 'mediocre' standard by myself or a genius like McHazard

editing mistake :(

Sounds like something Billy Mitchell or Todd Rogers might claim

The odds of that are *one calculator later* 1 in 140 Septenquinquagintillion 107 Sexquinquagintillion 476 Quinquinquagintillion 585 Quattorquinquagintillion 875 Trequinquagintillion 74 Duoquinquagintillion 759 Unquinquagintillion 816 Quinquagintillion 41 Novemquadragintillion 979 Octoquadragintillion 32 Septenquadragintillion 496 Sexquadragintillion 388 Quinquadragintillion 977 Quattorquadragintillion 892 Trequadragintillion 377 Duoquadragintillion 308 Unquadragintillion 695 Quadragintillion 103 Novemtrigintillion 413 Octotrigintillion 411 Septentrigintillion 786 Sextrigintillion 269 Quintrigintillion 605 Quattortrigintillion 859 Tretrigintillion 835 Duotrigintillion 460 Untrigintillion 10 Trigintillion 996 Novemvigintillion 39 Octovigintillion 49 Septenvigintillion 855 Sexvigintillion 837 Quinvigintillion 300 Quattorvigintillion 876 Trevigintillion 707 Duovigintillion 565 Unvigintillion 566 Vigintillion 172 Novemdecillion 942 Octodecillion 495 Septendecillion 945 Sexdecillion 130 Quindecillion 994 Quattordecillion 800 Tredecillion 651 Duodecillion 996 Undecillion 827 Decillion 582 Nonillion 712 Octillion 290 Septillion 988 Sextillion 879 Quintillion 530 Quadrillion 308 Trillion 518 Billion 507 Million 892 Thousand 968 This took foreverrrrr

How many ppl do you know that are called SummoningSalt? yeah of cause the youtuber :D

Yeah summoning salt holds basically every record in punchout. He has the top 8? Times for full game and half the single fight records

Thats sort of how the King Hippo manip works. In short, every button input (and for how many frames) is input into an additional scrambler, so unless you are also perfect with all your inputs, RNG manip for most things in the game just wont be possible.

What about dreamcast tho?

Don Flamenco 1 was a super easy strat that I'm sure most kids found out by accident. It was also my easiest fight. I thought it was boring to punch with the same hand every punch, so I always went right-left all the time when boxers were stunned. If you did that to Don 1, you only have to dodge, at worst, 3 punches and it's a round 1 TKO.

@@TehGamesaver yeah I'm sure youre right. Lol I love how on Glass Joe's record, he's got 99 losses and 1 KO, and that 1 KO is because of a freak accident involving his opponent at the time, Nick Bruiser. 😂

IKR??? It's amazing to me how people figure this stuff out. I'm from the era where the high score was everything

There is no such thing as "not being able to speedrun", you don't have to get the world record or a high time. You can just improve your own personal bests. After all (most) people speedrun to have fun.

PAL would mostly be the same (i think), maybe a bit less odds overall. And unfortunately I know nothing about SPO.