Widespread Lifter Failure Part 3 

I am 32 years into the machine shop business I also spent 17 years as chief engine building instructor for Roush-Yates power and performance engine program without getting to much into my journey with flat tappets I am in 100% in agreement with you I understand all the extra machine work for cam tunnel and lifter bore bushing I’ve done all that hundreds of times there is a percentage of flat tappet failures that are because of improper break in and improper oil spring pressure Ect it does happen but we have done thousands of flat tappets with great success the cams never went flat sometimes we didn’t even Rev up the engines for break in mainly because in the early days we didn’t know what we were doing not one failure zero in the last 5 years we have had dozens correct oil correct procedure correct spring pressures still the cams go flat not sure who your friend is that says the parts aren’t to blame, have him contact me his take on this is not going to stick to me The issue if Rockwell hardness is a joke why should I halfto check every part for hardness when I paid for correctly hardness in the first place

Our local engine shop is seeing flat tappet cam/lifter failure , even with the most well known cam company's cams and lifters . Before covid they had built 1000's of circle track engines and did not have cam/lifter failures . What is causing the problem is evident ....parts quality

Back in 75 as an 18 yo with only basic tools I installed a performance cam and lifter kit , did a 30 min 2500rpm break in , no special oil or additives 0 problems . Tell me what has changed, my guess inferior products !

You are rock solid in your thought process and procedures. Manufacturers push their equipment and tooling to the limit. They buy materials that will save money. All I'm saying is there are many aspects to a failure! We are one and are responsible for what we do! Builders are not the only aspect to a failure. Your videos are excellent and does us all good. Thank you.

I am just getting started on the 4th cam in a row. After watching your video after others on this subject there is a real quality control (QC) problem all based on GREED. If anything the QC and product reliability should have increased, not decreased. Comp Cams is owned by Edelbrock. Call Comp Cams and find out who answers. They moved from California for profit. In Tennessee you pay low wages, no protections, do what you want. What attitude does that create? Everyone seems to be owned by a large corporation whose only interest is profit at anyone else's expense. How else does this happen. They are just like the politicians. I needed to watch your show before I go and finish this job again. I am hoping I have the new cam delivered today. I am now almost a month without my only transpo, a "69 Chevy van with a 4-bolt main 350. I am 76 and tired of doing this over and over along with the high expense even though Summit Racing is excellent at backing up what they sell. Thank You Summit Racing for not making this totally insane. Now I am sure this is a product problem, specifically materials and quality control. How do they expect to stay in business?

Great video, its messed up that the same procedure and parts you used 30 years ago doesn't always work today on the same engine,parts for older stuff are pretty much cheap knock off parts.its like the 40 year old fridge still going in the garage but you went through 2 or 3 in last 20 years in the kitchen.

Had a remaned big block chev installed in a RV in 2016 in 2019 I had it fail, lifters collapsed and wore off lobes on the camshaft. I had it rebuilt at a shop , reputable machine shop, and now 2022 I have now had the same thing happen again. 3 of the lifters are 3/16 of an inch shorter than the rest and lobes of the cam worn down. At first I thought it was a builder problem but after seeing this set of video's from you , I lean heavily toward your opinion. I'm rebuilding this one myself thinking at least I would be sure that everything was done right. Of course i have already bought new cam and lifters [ hydrolic] , now I wish I had spent the extra and bought roller lifters and cam. THANK YOU FOR YOUR DETAILED VIDEO'S CHEERS Steve h.

The Lifters from Engintech look like the GM/Delphi 2 piece hydraulic OEM flat tappets BUT those now come from Taiwan ROC...I found metal shavings on those lifters right out of the box....I cant use Chinesium like that! Crap...

A good lifter is made out of harden steel. Usually 8620 or 9310 material and with a light case harden to prevent failure. All these issues are from cheap material or bad heat treating… I wish I had a bad lifter I would cut and do a metallurgical lab to verify what the issue is.

I think it is a way to destroy older cars, Green New Deal

just watched uncle Tonys Garage he had a link to a guy that went through what was going on and it seems we are getting rebuilt lifters that have been reground, honed out and not to specs basically what we think are new are rebuilt watch Tom Mews on the subject

I first started hearing about lifter failures from Hot Rod magazine about 15 years ago. You'd think they'd have it sorted out by now. Damn cost-cutting greed heads.

I've been watching David Vizard's videos lately. His delivery is slow, dry, and dull, but the info is valuable. He is a partner in an oil additive company called Oil Extreme. He says it has a secret additive that no other oil has, it works better than ZDDP, and eliminates flat tappet failures. He also claims more hp and better mileage. I have no proof, but Vizard is a respected and reputable guy.

I would speculate that the managment of the plants that manufacture components are basing their decisions on what bean counters say, not what engineers or machinists say. It’s about cash flow month by month, not building quality products. It is a systemic industry wide issue.

It’s funny how other intelligent people such as your self, with yrs of experience an knowledge,who has caught my ear ,are saying the same thing

The problem is the lifters are loosing prime that's why there wiping cams

I believe your opinion is spot on with what's going on, just look at the 2021 Chevy trucks lifter issue.

The whole zinc phosphate in the oil thing kinda goes out the window when you look at all the old cars and pickups still on the road that are running today's oil without adding anything. I've put 50,000 miles on an 81 Dodge pickup 318 over ten years, it's been run on whatever oil is on sale, when I remember to change it. I also remember reading about the Ford 2.3 liter Pinto motor's development. They've got that goofy cam follower, doesn't spin like a lifter. Right off the bat they were wearing out, the fix was in the oil. Ford specified an additive which all the oil companies incorporated into their oil. Now it's been like 40 years since I read that, no longer have the book but as I recall the additive was zinc and maybe phosphate. I firmly believe this a machining and metallurgy probably we're facing today.

Thank you for your time

I wonder if lifter bodies can be cryogenically treated, or nitrided, or mikronited, or hard chromed, after the faces have been ground 🤔. Adds cost, but it's still cheaper than a roller setup, what with rollers needing different springs, pushrods, etc.

My son and I have a machine shop and we are hands on workers we have bleed down problem on lifters roller and flat tappet it is the worst we have ever seen in my 55 year career

I installed a retro roller from Howards cams, one lifter bleeds down after a few days of sitting. I ordered everything from Howards. Cam, lifters, pushrods. I used springs, guide plates, and rockers from Comp. Springs were tested by my Machinist for proper seat pressure and all that. Rocker arm geometry was checked, pushrods were ordered to length so no miss matched parts. All the math added up! Greg Kell my machinist and personal friend said the same thing about lifters. He's built 2000+ hp race engines for over 30 yrs. I think he would know. Bogies Muffler & Machine. A small shop here in Alabama.

I see what the other builder is saying sure reboring the camshaft bearing bores and indexing the lifter bores would help and he has no failures sure. Then again I see lifter failures now much more often. My guess it is still a lower quality materials sure his is surviving they aligned better. But look at how many survived before this without the Remachining. I think it was better quality materials ..Have a good day Sir.

There was major core shift in the cam tunnels of engines back in the 60"s and they ran forever with flat tappets. Easy to see around the machine surface on the first cam bearing. Lifter bores wound have to be worn until lifter had motion side to side. I'm thinking they would also bleed down. The companies passing junk parts to engine builders and not standing behind their parts are putting YOU and hard working shops out of business. Why should a customer take a chance with a shop building a motor when cam companies take no responsibility with their parts? This is why so many shops just buy crate engines and put the risk of failure on them. I wish I had now I have 5-6k in junk. Maybe its time people banded together legally to get this issue resolved.

if a machine shop has to buy the equitment to check case hardening,that alone is proof of faulty sales of the lifter and proof they know there selling crap,what about the adverge joe like me should i also buy a case harden tester just to build a engine,all this is crap of a issue we all know well comes from. the usa sends all there scrap to china and china resales it right back to us,im also a machinist and can say there is a real difrence in quality of steel these days,dont buy that take steel from 30 years back and graded the same scale as todays steel,using same carbide tips and inserts to cut the steel at the same surface feed and see if you can tell the difrence,it might be marked as 4140 steel or stainless but i dont need a rockwall scale to tell the difrence in quality. as you mentioned in other vids you have made ,this is clearly another view of doing away with old tech and advancing to more expensive top quality parts,said and done another attempt to put old school machine shops and diy builders out of business to move aside for crap factory crate engines

Look folks and MR Ellison you said it before in the past spanning over 30 years I personally have installed lifters and cams in I lost count in how many engines and they were not broke in right according to todays standards how many lifter failures did I have? NONE now all the sudden everyone from coast to coast has lifter failures. WHY china thats why and greed here in the US thats all I am going to say.

We never machined the cam tunnel on lower end engines we did do it on high end engines with our Tobin arp line bore machine still had failures we didn’t have failures when sleeves were used in lifter bores but those were all roller cams

I'm almost 70 years old been racing for almost 50 years ( mostly street stock. Class's) never really looked at cams and lifters from national cam company's never had any problems been putting in cams in the same way. Either the maching on the new blocks are sloppy or the quality control on the new cams are garbage I don't know...But there is Something wrong...

I'm currently 57 years old my dad started me building engine when I was about 9. If the lifter failure problem was due to shoddy work or bad installation techniques or what have you other than materials then why is it this is only occurring within the last 10 years or so? Did every engine builder on the planet forget how to build engines or are being taught to building the wrong way? That would literally have to be the case for this unnamed persons opinion to be accurate. I personally never saw any new lifter failure until about the last decade and since then I haven't had any myself but I have seen many others who have. This is either a materials problem or a machining problem, it really is that simple.

Most American companies are buying from China or having their lifters made in China. This IS the explanation.

Great video! Good to see honest discussion, or at least you are giving both sides to a massive problem. I have a flat tappet cam to install, and obviously worried about destroying everything, so I am correlating all the information I can. So this vid is invaluable! My only question, is if a motor has already had many 1000s of miles on it without a lifter failure, one would think the indexing would be good. So wouldn't that also be an indication of the problem being in the lifters?

Heck back in the day at the factory never broke a cam in back in the 80s i never broke one in had no problems also what year was these cam and lifters produced i have a comp cam mfg 5.18.2012 never used yet isit just lets say 2020 2023?

I’ve always used Rhoads Lifters and Valvoline Racing oil. Been at it since 82. Hardly ever changed a cam bearing, never indexed a lifter. Never lost a cam. Firestone Pensioner #444963. It’s a grind issue. No taper or incorrect taper on the cam and or lifter and or lifter feet not ground perpendicular to lifter body or with correct crown. It’s not the shops fault. It’s not the metal hardness. It’s machinists that can’t frigging run a lathe and or wrong oil in virtually every one I’ve seen fail. Nothing more. But they’ll have you believe it’s because you failed to “index the lifter”. The day I index a lifer, I’m also buying a Tesla! 🙄

According to the governor of Nevada you won't have any post covid lifter problems if you wear your N95 mask throughout the camshaft installation process.

You are absolutely right, we shouldn't have to a $1000. On a roller cam. I agree with you and your friend the possibility of using a high mileage engine that needs to be checked before installing a new flat tappet cam. I'm not a licensed engine builder but I do have about 60 or so through out my years. I started in the late 70's, and knock on wood I never wiped the and lifters. Up till last year, now I got 5 cam and lifters sitting on the shelf and the companies won't warranty them because it's my fault! I came across this builder and he's saying the dome on the lifters do not match the tapper on the cam Shaft's. 2.5 to .003 is too much and should be .0015 max. I agree with him. What's your thoughts 🧐💭

I agree with your comments , just say you decided to change out your flat tappet cam for a more aggressive flat tappet cam .. it wipes out in 100 miles .. is it now your cam to lifter geometry is out ?? No , that would show it’s a quality of product issue..

If these engines need the cam tunnel aligned then why didn't that cam and lifters fail from the factory cam and lifters . Bloodviking

If the cam and lifter bores not being machined properly is the cause of the cam failures, why didn't they fail originally?

Go to the 10 minute mark to hear the explanation.

Thank you. Bottom line, facts, majority of our automotive parts are made outside the USA. Cheaper labor, poor quality, lack of QC. This allows U.S. manufacturers/assemblers, or distributors, to keep higher profit margins. No longer, 100% made in America. Now the stickers state, Assembled in America with foreign made parts.

Great, and very informative video! Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time.

Hmm... Been slapping together engines since the late 70's! Hell, the first 3 or 4 I put together were fresh from the junk yard, basic machine shop stuff done (bore to fit pistons, hone, line hone mains if needed), then handed off back to me. I put them together, and there wasn't even a break-in period FFS! Never once had a problem!! After a few more experienced guys learned me some things, I started breaking in engine and cams, yet NEVER line honed cam tunnels, NEVER put all kinds of special goop on cams or lifters, and still NEVER had any problems whatsoever!! It wasn't until the late 2000's that the problems started showing up. Today?... ha ha ha, yeah right, they fall apart left and right, no matter how much crap you use on them! High dollar break-in oils, the specific cam companies super duper special space-aged monkey lube for their cam and lifters, follow their instructions to the T, and dance around their cam and lifters at midnight, naked by the camp fire, chanting "booga booga boom boom hissy poo" 7 times to the cam gods, and yet... they still FAIL!!!! No, sorry!! I don't know what's changed, but it's certainly not people installing the cams and lifters!! We used to do it all the time, and NEVER had any problems! I stopped buying from the big box corporate cam companies, and now only buy custom ground cams and lifters, and haven't had a problem since!

There is a reason China was always known for making junk and it was always related to their steel. Even when they make plastic parts, they don't have the mold makers with the knowledge to fix all the problems and on top of that they build the molds with inferior steel. It's also why Japan is known for the quality of their knives; they also make some of the best steels in the world. That was not always the case. As someone with 40 years' experience, Tool and Die, Mold making and general machining of parts used from race cars to the space shuttle, who has done almost every type and method of machining, I can tell you the Chinese cut corners even when their quality is monitored very closely. It only takes a small difference in the metallurgical structure of a precision component to produce an inferior part. Subtract a little chromium or nickel and you have a completely different quality part. I'm a little surprised you're against using a hardness tester since there are many modern versions which don't require the expense of a traditional tester and give extremely close readings. You're only talking about 30 seconds to get a reading. At least at that point if you meet the hardness requirement the lifter is much less likely to fail. Good luck.

Talk to mechanics across the board,this is going on with all kinds of parts,soft ball joints etc. Also a lot of counterfeiting going on. The company's need to stand behind their parts regardless who makes it. They are part of the problem. Maybe the company that makes lifters for John Force can make me some,I'll just have to make em fit. I know they could do it in Cuba.

interesting - I know for a fact many factory cam bearing bores are out of spec and that many engines had the bearings installed and then a burnishing tool was used to true them up. A lot of big block chryslers give trouble after new cam bearings are installed - I made a bearing scraper out of an old cam to have the cam freely install and rotate. So then I wonder how out of whack the lifter bores are.

White box lifters are sourced from the same place as the marked up name brands. I always pump my lifters in oil to check for excessive bleed-down, just like the old service manuals advised..

Powell machine has done videos on RU-vid checking and regrinding lifters. It’s the lifter machining

I have a brand new 2021 Silverado and worried my lifters are going to fail.

I just put a chevy 355 together with a hyd flat tappet cam. All the lifters leaked down from the start, for about 300 miles, after 300 or so it was 2 lifters. Around 800 miles 2 lifters still leak down, so I change out all the lifters for a set of anti pump ups, same brand. I couldn't find a set of my tried true Seal Power Anti Pump ups. I bought the whole cam kit from one company, Cam, Lifters, Valve Springs, Retainers, Locks, Seals, & Timing Set all in one box. I'm running Brodix 200 IK heads, 3/8 push rods, 1.6 full roller rockers ( steal ) and stud girdles. I am using a Melling Billet Shark Tooth oil pump. Side note I pulled the cam a checked for damage. Also I spent a lot time trying to adjust the rattle out of the first set of lifters. The anti pump ups lifters, adjust them 1/8 turn down at installation and haven't touched them. So far no lifter leak down or rattles even after sitting two weeks between start ups.

I've wiped 2 cams in my mild 302 Cleveland, first one I chalked down to either a bad break-in or bad quality lifters (unknown brand in reco engine) failed within 3000 km (2000 miles). Second one (Crow cam) went at 70,000 (40,000 miles). I put that down to low zinc oil. With my last one, I did everything right. Comp break-in lube, dumped after 20 min, long break-in with Fuchs Titan 20W60 (race oil). Started ticking not long after, so I pulled every lifter and checked each face, all lovely and shiny. Swapped the rockers to Scorpions (from stock stamped), tick still there, especially when hot. I can only put it down to either sloppy lifter bores or... Bad lifter hydraulics. These are Eaton HT900s, supposedly US made. I did everything right and my Cleveland is still a clacky sewing machine. I'm starting to think that the first 2 cams really weren't my fault.

Ken, I bought a 72 corvette stock 350. It had a bad cam when I bought it so I took it to a very reliable builder,. He replaced the cam /lifters and a week later same issue. I take the engine out again and this time softer springs were installed and new cam and lifters. 1 week later, same thing. I'm on the 4th new cam and lifters to get this original motor to just run,. No race cam or extras just a smooth 350 engine in a classic corvette. Now he recommends roller lifters and each time I'm spending more money. What in the world is happening?

SK Machine, We found in our shop that if the cam lobe taper is less then the lifter crown the lifter has a tendency not to spin. Also we had 440 that had 4 lifters that would not spin on one side. The lifter bores were not true. When boring them for bushings using a fixture you could see it with your naked eye. The original cam was not wore. Also you will notice engines with cam retaining plates have much less failures then a floating cam. Harmonics from a junk timing chain will also contribute to break in wear. The biggest problem is making sure the lifters are spinning when turning engine. If not correct the cam location. or lifter bore. All high lift cam engines done here get bronze bushings blue printing the lifter bore location using a BHJ fixture.

I had an old truck I wanted to put in an RV cam I bought the cam and the lifters install them with a new timing chain I never broke the cam in and it run flawless parts or not what they used to be

Anybody pushing the installer issue has an alternative agenda. For all the installers to start doing things different all at the same time is totally fallacy. I have had these issues of premature failure and eventually got it fixed, what changed? Same oil and additive from a bulk supply on hand, same assembly procedure, replacement parts because of failure, the only variable is the parts. We all have seen premature failure of new parts, nothing new.

This is very interesting. I've only done a little engine work over the years, but I have been playing around with an old Porsche 944 for a while now. Even before the pandemic others that work on these cars regularly have said the lifters being produced lately have been of very poor quality, with losing the prime being the main problem. The lifters are of a very different configuration to those found in domestic V8s, and made by only one company, 'INA'. I wonder if some new internationally-adopted environmental regulation has doomed the quality of hardening processes used? Tree huggers have really become a PITA in the last decade or so...

Some people have been noticing that they're lifters have no crown right out of the box. That's a manufacturing defect no way around it. Also there have been defects in rotor material for brake rotors where they're too brittle that's not as widespread but the point is it's not just lifters it's several things. I'm returning a clutch master cylinder that about 3 months old on a truck that doesn't even get driven daily and never gets driven hard. It seems like it's almost any parts you buy, just lifters is the worst of it.

Sounds like it was done by design to stop engine building!?

Well I put in a set of Crower hydraulic lifters this past summer so far so good 👍 thank God

It's funny I was going to ask you about this subject . This is Chris with the G20 van we spoke before I was wondering I'm building the 350 for the van and I was wondering if it would be better off to use the original lifters that were in decent shape rather than take a chance with the soft metal lifters with a brand new camshaft

I paused at 4:50 to make this comment. General Motors agrees with you....bad lifters

Here in West London , England I've had the same. I just rebuilt my Mustand Ford 289 for the 3rd time ( I had it nearly 30 years now) and I always put in new lifters as a part of the rebuild. Car ran fine for a few weeks and now it won't start. Lifters won't take any pre load. The only way it ran was to slack off the rockers and put in some clearance like solid ones. Car ran rich but it ran. I go back to Real Steel ( our engine parts store over here) I was told the problem is in the oil so I bought USA imported engine oil. They reckon it's low quality engine oil missing zinc and magnesium compound in it that's causing the failure. They got a guy whose engine was wrecked in 10 minutes and they say it's the oil. I ordered a new set of lifters but I also have the ones I took out a couple of years ago and may have to putthem back in! It's not the money for me, it's all the time and effort ripping apart everything again and putting it all back together for someone else's fault. It's no longer a labour of love it's a pain in the arse or ass as you say.

I can't wait for the new content on motors. I really really appreciate you taking the time to teach this. Thank you. Don't worry about the frequency it's worth the wait and more so because your videos do have a lot of information. I'm greatful. Build them tough!💪

I know this is an old video, a year. I've done some looking since I watched the first one this morning - there are a number of lifter makers saying theirs are all manufactured in the USA. Yes they cost more but should be worth it - opinion or experience with any of these - Johnson, Morel, Clay Smith, etc

It's quality control across the board. Mass production is happening in so many different places. Primarily across the pond. We see it with other products as well. Lifters, carbs, brakes, transmissions, and electronics period.

I'm pretty sure this person who claims there isn't a problem with lifters is myvintageiron7512 who made a video calling all of these videos about the national defective lifters not true. This guy I have left a message on one of his video's I was building a 383 using 6-inch rods then the moron wrote back to saying my 383 using 6-inch rod won't even start or run without the biggest racing cam made. That was a lie because for 2 years this 383 using 6-inch rods is in my work truck running just fine.

Good video. Thank you!!

Thank you for the videos. I decided to go with crower hy roller due to this on an olds build. I can’t imagine doing all the work on a motor and having to pull a motor due to flat tappet failure. Still going to use Lucas break in oil. To much work for issues.

I have say I agree with you Ken . Let me say this at 60 years of age and with over 40 years of being an Automotive technican I have only had two times that I have experienced lifter failure .The first time was many years ago and the second time well let me say this I know for fact it isn't me .350 chevy compcam comp lifters comp springs 30 to 45 minutes during break in #1 exhaust valve never stopped rattling ..Tearing down in the morning , prety sure cam lob is gone .Summit sent me a new cam kit....will see how much damage there is.

I rebuild my 68 chevy 327 and I have had. The last cam and lifter failure do to lifters is. It okay to use vh1 racing oil with a break. In oil adaptive with zine. Thank you

is there a brand u would recommend today for SBC

Your right

Spent 27 years in a truck dealer shop i was the shop cummins mid range engine guy built hundreds 5.9 with flat tappets always used luber plate 105 to assemble the engines never had a failure got 225,000 on my personal 5.9 untouched check over head once in a while never had one rocker overly loose or tight always used vavoline cummins blue 15w 40

There's a massive issue with quality everywhere you look nowadays. It doesn't matter if your changing brakes, ball joints, u joints, bearings of any kind, its could even be a thermostat housing, or a throttle body gasket. There is a major problem with quality all across the board. I have an eagle eye when it comes to parts. There is massive amounts of counterfeiting going on, in the last 2 years I've had to source down so many different parts go through several different suppliers just to finally get a decent part that actually fits and functions as good as oem. Do no trust oreilly auto, advance auto, or autozone. All 3 have been selling counterfeit parts that are completely unsafe and are accidents waiting to happen. So far I have yet to see a counterfeit part from napa. I'm talking about general maintenance and repair not extreme engine building. But the common factor is still there. Doesn't matter if your fixing your neighbors minivan or buying a u joint for your wheeler, if your buying parts you better thoroughly check and inspect brand new parts. This is a form of what's called industrial sabotage. This is an attack at the working man. This is NOT affecting the big names in this industry, they're reaping all the profits while we suffer. They have lawyers working fulltime for their protection, even if we all banded together and pooled our resources we still wouldn't be able to do anything legally because it all comes down to one thing. Money. Money is power in this world because we were all fooled into fighting the wrong enemy. If you look back throughout history there is only one tribe that can cause all these problems on a global scale. They have been causing problems and committing evil acts for over 2000 years. You don't want to bring politics into this channel but your right there on the edge of all the answers but you're trying to hold onto the false reality and think that these issues will just resolve themselves but they will not. The truth is that THE TRUTH FEARS NO INVESTIGATION. ONLY LIARS FEAR INVESTIGATION. IF YOU TELL THE TRUTH YOU DO NOT HAVE TO REMEMBER WHAT YOU HAVE SAID. I know you feel this way but something is keeping you from calling out these liars. Don't hold back, don't pull punches. If you see a lying scumbag you make sure they know it along with everyone else. It's clear what's going on here. We're being lied to and our wealth stolen.

Watched all 3 of your videos. I have built a 360 Dodge for my class B camper. I was aware of the lifter problem long before I did this engine and contacted the machine shop that I use. His reply: it's a big gamble. He has had mixed results & tells his customers as such, doesn't have any solution. The engine I was building (before the pandemic) had flat tappet lifters so I was concerned. The engine had 90K miles, mostly highway, so it was in real good shape. I even considered re-using the old cam & lifters rather than gamble on new stuff. I decided to send my cam (an original factory one) to a very reputable cam grinder & had an RV grind put on it. They sent me a set of lifters that came from a supplier that they had good luck with. That was the best I could do. Anyway, I broke in the cam & lifters following the time honored method & used a break in oil. The instructions on the oil said not to put more than about 400 miles on the engine with this oil. Did that, changed oil & filter, added 1/2 container of ZDDP additive & a pint of Lucas oil stabilizer. The engine has a little over 500 miles on it & so far so good. Only problem: on an irregular basis one lifter will bleed down when the van sits for over a week. Pecks for a while before it pumps up. Doesn't always do it so I'm assuming the one lifter has to be in the valve open position at engine shut down. Engine has fairly soft factory valve springs so perhaps I will luck out. Still it is a concern. Now for the scary part: what if suspension & steering components made in these foreign countries have the same problems with quality control? Kinda makes the lifter problem seem small potatoes. Thanks for the video, needed to be done.

Is this exclusive to massive powerhouse engines? Back in the day people would slap new cams and lifters in their engine, not even go through a break in procedure and be just fine. Why is it now there is such a small margin for error? Is our luck collectively running out? Or are manufacturers cutting corners and using lesser materials? I’d wager the latter is the issue. The writings on the wall in my own opinion. But I guess that opinion is my own 🤷🏻‍♀️

What about the brand new 350 crate engines GM sells? The popular one is/was the 300-horse version for $2,000. Probably $2,500 or more now. Those engines have flat tappet hydraulic cams. What kind of track record does those lifters and engines have? Do they fail?

Just a question. Does GM, Ford & Chrysler make their own lifters? They make performance engines, so they must have performance lifters. Are there problems with these lifters. I used to use Johnson lifters in my engines. They used to be made in America. Are there problems with those lifters also. Or is it just the performance cam manufactures having this problem. As Ken said in the video, we'll get through this, but what do we do in the mean time?

I just had a comp cam hydraulic flat tappet lifter collapse and break during break in procedure. I'll never use flat tappet lifter again. Install roller cam and lifters and ride out.

Is everything made in the great U S of A or is it really imported from Ch___ ?

Put Chinese lifters in my 371 olds engine while doing a complete rebuild. This was a mild street engine. Did the proper break in with the lube and zinc oil. They would not hold prime from day I and I could never keep the valves adjusted properly. After 500 miles they were so mushroomed that I needed a die grinder to get a couple of them out of the bore. I replaced with Johnson lifters and adjustable roller rockers from Tony Ross engines. I have 1000 miles on it now with no problems

I agree with you 100%. My last set of brand new hydraulic roller lifters would leak down immediately and after a short period of time one of them completely collapsed and would not pump back up. I installed it the same way I have done Many times before. JUNK LIFTERS! NOT MY FAULT!

I realize that flat tappets aren't used in new cars anymore, but does GM/Delphi/AC Delco still make their own lifters? In America? How about respected cam companies like Crower, Isky, or Lunati? Do you have any experience with Crower's "cam saver" hard-faced flat tappets?

VW some other German companies have had SOHC and DOHC cam buckets fail. Their solution was DLC coating. I wonder what it costs to buy that to add to lifters. 15:05 Some blocks made roller conversion impossible or close to it. Only recently did someone find a way to make roller cams and lifters for the Jeep 4.0 I6 as an example.

Myself I agree I've been doing this for almost 50 years. When you take a cover of and roll the motor and watch lifters bleed down within seconds, they are wrong. I disassembled my new ls3 and am going to put the old factory lifters back in it.

If you have a set of original 350 buick lifters I'll get out my checkbook right now.

Twenty to thirty years ago, it was an oil issue, not enough zinc. Calls to the cam suppliers didn't help, as they were as "out in the cold" as everyone else. Today, we're faced with a different problem. Metal failure issues, and the cam suppliers are quick to throw the blame at the engine builders, saying we're not using the correct oils or break in procedures. As of late, we're seeing wheels on roller lifters breaking in two, and ruining the camshafts. If they aren't using inferior parts, then what's the answer?

I love these vids don't stop

I just watched another video on this topic and it explained clearly that the problem is usually the lifters not being machined properly. The wrong taper/crown or none at all.

Are these other builders using a variety of cam and lifter manufacturers or are they having success with a particular manufacturer? I understand that their methods may vary and higher precision techniques can improve success with lowering failure rates, but this doesn't really help the diy engine builders that don't have top notch machine shops.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge

Wanna know what I do? We never had problems in the 60s - 90s right? So I use cams and lifters from the 60s-90s. GM is a bonus. GM cams are a bonus. You think GM was wiping cams out left and right? Nope! They didn’t have time for that BS

Same here... Did a cam swap on a 454 that was running fine. After break in, heard some rocker arm noise. Pulled the valve covers and had two spongy lifters... Watched Nicks Garage and he had the exact same issue on a 427 Ford. Replaced the lifters and solved the problem.

Dave 10 years ago I had 0 failure on hydraulic flat tappet lifters. I built 1 amc 304 and lost a cam ..I sent everything back to comp cam for no warranty. I had erson build another flat cam and used clay Smith hydraulic flat tappet lifters. I haven't lost a cam since using clay Smith If you haven't tried them do it.. Roger Bess

Thank you for reminding folks that checking cam tunnel vs lifter bores is a critical build component to not cheap out on. I have forgotten how many "cam swap" stories I've read over the years and funny enough... I don't ever recall the authors starting with block aspects. Maybe I missed it? Assumptions, assumptions... Odd things have been happening on occasion. Off center/axis crowns, bad crown radius, bad ra surface finish, embedded stuff/gouging/galling from poorly dressed grinding equipment, cam lobe tapers poorly matched to crown radius, and in the backround... old blocks with shot lifterbores & worse. A dingleball hone might get surface looking "good" but it has zero hope of correcting out of round issues or staying away from taper if a bore needs corrrection. Oil? Its own special topic, and... how many us can investigate the quality of oil received vs the build before firing it up? Chemical testing does not prove mechanical limits, and api specs can "pass" a product on market, yet fail the needs regarding old school flat tappets - 90 microns is about 0.0035", and just half of that lost to a lobe is already game over, because the taper takes the hit. Its worth noting the purpose of break in oil is increased wear through reduced protection: effectively behaving as a burnishing agent somewhere between superfine lapping compound and an oil purposed for real protection against working loads IF time limits are not exceeded. But where to chart lobe lift, mass, and spring pressures to define time limits for any oil used? Did Detroit ever do this to themselves back in the day? I'm thinking no, not a chance.

My comment is this my engines are stationary GM small block. Roller cam vortec on nat gas. Had about 6000 hours of run time. I bored one .020 the others new standards. I always replace cams and lifters. Always use custom ground cam for nat gas hard seats and 75 pound springs. Clevite cam lube hi zinc additive on sttart up we doing fine

A truer statement has never been made re: the argument about the problem being the quality of the lifter, not the oil. I will also add that overhead valve engines ran hundreds of thousands of miles on plain old non-detergent, single weight motor oil long before the oil makers introduced all the additives including ZDDP. It all comes down to the poor quality of lifters dumped in the laps of hobbyists and the classic/high performance engine builders. The size of the aftermarket would certainly indicate there is demand for high quality lifters. Are the failures the result of corporate greed in which inferior products are dumped on the consumer? Of course. The resellers of these lifters know there is no way the consumer will every successfully file a claim and receive any compensation beyond the replacement of the lifter with another questionable lifter and never covers the potential for a complete engine rebuild if a catastrophic failure occured. Failure can always be blamed on improper installation, adjustment and break-in countering any argument of poor materials or lack of quality control in manufacturing and assembly. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but here is how I believe the ball actually got rolling. If ZDDP is the end-all be-all for flat tappet lifters, was it removed by oil-makers due to economics given the fact that the remaining overhead valve engines are now using roller lifters? Nope, but it did make a compelling argument in support of limiting ZDDP. Government Regulators mandated ZDDP be limited for emissions compliance since the "plating properties" of ZDDP also allow it to foul catalytic convertors reducing their effectiveness. Classic cars are not equipped with catalytic convertors, but the end result was to create a loophole within which to kill the classic/performance car hobby and its stinky exhaust. On 5-10-2019, US tariffs on $200 billion of Chinese goods increased to 25% ... Good for the US economy, but bad for the classic car hobby. Not too long after, the hydraulic flat tappet failure pandemic came out of nowhere. Coincidence? Nope. The camshaft companies that relied on Chinese sourced lifters and lifter components were forced to find other suppliers (good luck) or accept substandard quality as a means to maintain product profitability. The quality US manufacturers were fully engaged in the manufacturing of OEM roller lifters and the demand for flat tappet lifters was so small the major US makers just stopped producing them. The flat tappet lifter was doomed. The combination of manufacturing compromises made as a concession to cost through continued sourcing from China and the reduction of ZDDP were the nails in the hydraulic flat tappet lifters' collective coffin. The factors that killed the flat tappet lifter had less effect on cheap roller lifters and failures were limited to a noisy lifter as opposed to the catastrophic engine failure that typically occurs when a flat tappet lifter fails, grinds up the camshaft and fills the motor with metal particles necessitating a full rebuild. The poorly manufactured hydraulic roller lifters continue to roll on.

Most people don't know how to break in a cam flat tapit or roller hydrolic or solid if your using a flat tapit have the cam grinder put 3 little flats on the side of the cam at three equil distances apart and if you can have the cam man put a 20 thousandth hole in the center of the face of the lifter where it rides on the cam and never crank on the motor when first starting a new motor if it don't start there's some thing wrong cheak it use the right oil make sure you coat the cam prior to installing it with moly not the liquid break in oil I see some guys use on the cam its gonna go flat if you do use oil ,the very reputable engine builder smokey Unick said to take a piece of 600 wet n dry sand paper put it on your thumb press it against the lifter face with water rotate the lifter a Couple of times to nock down the agressive machining marks on the face just a few turns not 5 not 4 ,2 or 3 also use LITE springs when breaking in a cam know how to pre adjust a rocker and use a case hardened cam and lifter set it's the added insurance against cam lifter failure if you don't do these steps screw it your a dumb ass I'm 67 I been building motors for 50 years I've NEVER had a cam go flat because I went to school to learn how to build motors and break them in I'm also a machinist I've taken the advice of Ak Miller ,Zora arkus Dontove ,Smokey Unick, Mr goldblad comp cams ,Ed Iskendarian, Mr Bruce Crower, Mr Crane, MrTerry Walters, n the professor Mr David Visard Read all what these great men have written then you'll know how to break in a cam properly Read it's the way you learn before you distroy a part or a complete motor and maybe kill your self ,,Peace bro n sisters

ZDDP AND BREAK IN are BOTH MYTHS .....

I believe part of the issue is people adding a ZDDP additive to this modern API street oil. This modern oil is required to have insane amounts or detergents as well as having a high alkalinity for these insane 10,000 mile oil change intervals. They are blending this oil to neutralize a lot of acids over these insane oil change intervals as well as fight sludge buildup in the high temperature areas around the piston rings. This is important with these extremely low tension rings and these 10,000 mile oil change intervals. Seriously the vast majority of the population believes these insane oil change intervals are ok and most actually exceed even these! Sorry to write so much, so here’s my point these detergents are preventing and “cleaning” the ZDDP off the metal surfaces effectively making it useless. It’s damn near impossible to get the technical info out of an oil company about one of these non API “racing oils” believe me I’ve tried many times. Without the technical data we don’t know what exactly the additive package is. Obviously this bad machining and all these other factors are also at play. But when we have a camshaft and lifter failure on a cam that had proper taper, lifters that spun free and had a proper crown, parts were properly hardened, broken in on inner springs only, ect, ect, ect there is another reason why.

While it certainly is possible that a small sect of the engine building community knows something that the lion share of the community does not know, odds are not great ( especially among those who build engines for a living ). I will also use an old saying here, " where there is smoke, there is fire". Kudos to you Ken for bringing up and discussing another view point despite it being different from your own. In regards to the other engine builder and what they do, why on earth would I want to spend another $2000+ for that kind of machine work ( and specialty parts ) on a street engine? Your still money ahead to buy the retro fit lifters, new push rods, valve springs and have your heads set up ( proper installed height of valve springs ) while they are in the shop for a valve job anyway.