In the 80s I worked on an old flathead Willy's that a female classmate picked up to drive cross country to college. The thing would get up to about 3,800 RPM then the valves would float. In top gear high range, this was at 54MPH. The gal made it all the way LA to Colorado before spinning off the road and scattering all her earthly possessions down a snowy embankment, amazingly not hurt.
Back in 68-69 I had a 1943 MB Jeep and decided it needed a little more power. Had a local machine shop mill 0.125 inch off of the head. He used a large plate milling cutter that he said that he made himself on a vertical milling machine. The plate looked very similar to the one in the video. It didn't make much difference in the power level. It still didn't have much.
On a flat head when you mill the head it also hurts the breathing. (air flow) because it closes down the space between the valves and the cylinder bores.
Thank you geosutube. And yes to the others, you do have to be mindful about where you anchor and support the piece to be milled. Every model part is different. You need to have knowledge about how each one reacts to stresses, which is gained through experience. And for anyone wondering about the cutter wheel, it is dead flat and square with the spindle, but the carbide cutters are all set at slightly different heights so each takes a progressively bigger bite. Treated well, the cutter wheel will last for a decade of use or more.
Great machine. Richmond’s Machine Service in Clarksville, Tn uses the same one. Danny uses that daily new heads to flathead fords, old school Bbc and real hemi heads.
Storm 85b machines came with 2 adapters that clamped from outside of head to 2 head bolt holes with dowls thru head bolt holes. They bolted to fixture and you placed screw Jack on other side to level. Will guarantee pulling thru spark plugs holes bent the head. Been there, learned the hard way!!!
An outstanding video. Thanks I learned a lot! I have a good local machine shop. I am happy to see that this is a surviving and necessary art for us old vehicle lovers!
Ник моей жены. К моему большему сожалению, когда-то БЫЛ у нас такой Человек - Мозолюк Семен Селивестрович. Золотые и трудолюбивые руки, светлая головушка, высочайшая квалификация шлифовщика, фрезеровщика, токаря на всяком и любейшем оборудовании и огромнейший, с малолетства военный и послевоенный ОПЫТ И ПРАКТИКА!!! Всё делал с огромнейшей скурпулезностью и вниманием. Да и об других ТОКАРЯХ, ФРЕЗЕРОВЩИКАХ, СЛЕСАРЯХ-ИНСТРУМЕНТАЛЬЩИКАХ, СВАРЩИКАХ самые теплые воспоминание и огромнейшее уважение. Большинства никого уже нету, к большему сожалению... Осталось совсем мало... А молодежь не идет. Тяжело, шум, вибрация, гарь, копоть, мало... МАЛО...Работать так никто не хочет... А мастерская на видео богатейшая, многое по силам, да запросто!!! Завидую белой завистью!!!
I glad to see these old school US made machine tools ! ! ! where only operator decides the all machining by his mind and priceless hands ! ! !love from Pakistan.
Does my heart good and even makes me feel a little proud to see a guy doing the same operation he's probably done hundreds of times and do it flawlessly. Laborious setup like that teaches you how important learning how to use precise measuring tools really is. People have been commenting on how old the milling machine is and how they would have done it differently, but in the end what did you get - a perfectly leveled and surfaced head with the least amount of material taken off. Nice work, sir.....
or you could just lay it on a Van Norman right side up, with 2 shims and clamp from the sides and hit the switch like every shop I've ever been in. That machine seems to be a poor setup with too many moving parts to be accurate.
Fun video! Old iron working on old iron. And as a bonus you get to hear the no-content "experts" telling you about how their $300K machine can do it better and faster... Love your logo too, BTW!
The “no content experts” don’t want to learn or teach others their superior techniques - just criticize to draw some attention to themselves. I’m convinced they are actually inexperienced, likely kids, and simply repeat things they pick up from other heavily edited-for-time videos. The name calling kinda shows their insecurity and lack of true knowledge. Many ways to skin a cat and newer doesn’t always equal better.
Thank you for dredging up some sweet memories such as fighting to remove a cylinder head not knowing about the 3/8 screw under the carburetor into the block , I know it's on a Wells except I can't remember the year or what kind of cylinder head it was , them where Suite days in my life .
you all probably dont care at all but does someone know of a trick to get back into an Instagram account..? I was stupid forgot my password. I love any tricks you can give me!
@Clayton Remy I really appreciate your reply. I found the site on google and im trying it out atm. Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
@Ronald Farley With that old time out dated machine yes it takes more than 10 minutes with a modern machine less than 10 minutes. Cleaning the head will take longer than milling it. Even with the old machine you dont stand there and watch it cut you set it start it and do something else overlap the jobs. The question is do you bottom feed with old equipment or do you invest and offer top quality work faster and more accurate?
quick question though. That end section there seem to have been eaten out or burnt out . What you do now, run it as is or build it up or is it that I don't know much about those engines?
@@simonsms410 What the heck are you talking about? I said modern machine not CNC machine learn to read. As in modern head milling machine with a single CBN insert. And yes it can be done in 5 minutes with a superior finish on some of the modern cylinder and block machines
@@tomhutchins1046 Try to tell me what makes it so much faster on a modern 3 axis CNC mill. The cutting is not the time consuming part, it is the set up with getting head set up true in both directions . You clam that you can do it in 5 min - getting a cylinder head to the mill, set it up true, programme the machine, do the cutting and take it down from the machine again. If you can do it in 5 min, then you should be able to do 12 different cylinderheads pr hour all day long. I need to see it before I belive that.
It's a Go Devil Head. You could surface it with a bit of 2X4 and some emery cloth. From memory 1/16"is ok. But seriously held down in the middle and not the ends of course its going to bow. it should have a hold down in every plug hole.
I sleeved an F head block once it was to tall to fit in my machine to deck so i bought a large file and some WD40. Draw filed it flat. the customer (A kid) brought his jeep by running. He let out the clutch in low gear at idle got out and walked next to it. it was so smooth and silent you could barley hear it running.
I don't know anything about the newer engines but I do know those machines work very well on the older cast iron engines. I used one in the late 70s early 80s in a very busy automotive machine shop and we never had any problems.
Only thing i do different is I take a piece of square stock and 180 grit with a couple rubs across to get a plane to measure. works great for me. Good job taking only what was needed.
A very minor assumption is being made that the cutting head is not warped. That is, when they move the depth micrometer from one point to another on the cutting head, and measure down to the head, they could be introducing error if the cutting head is warped. Probably better to use a dial micrometer and swing the head across the surface being leveled.
Easy enough to mount an indicator and sweep the top of the cutting head when setting up the machine initially. Then you know it's straight. Fast and accurate to depth mike from then on. No need to bounce an indicator across the head surface every time.
@@johnk3606 ... Again, if I understand you, this method would induce inaccuracy as well ... and that is the whole point of my post ... reducing inaccuracy of measurement. If you are saying (and I could be totally wrong here) to mount the mag dial indicator on the engine part (head) being machined and then sweep or indicate to the the cutting head and/or the cutting teeth attached to it then you are again inducing error as the cutting head could be warped and/or the cutting teeth could be misaligned. Take note that the cutting teeth are all adjustable (up/down) for this exact reason. That is, when the teeth are mounted they are individually set to be the exact same height relative to the cutting surface ... not an exact distance from bottom of the cutting head. So placing the magnetic dial indicator on the cutting head and then sweeping the cutting head back and fort across the head being cut, checking various points on the head, will eliminate these errors as the point of reference (e.g. the mag base of the dial indicator) is never changes. Granted there could be errors in the machine turning the cutting head (misaligned, wobble, old bearings, etc.) but these are reduced by keeping the mag dial indicator at the same point on the head while measuring. The point is that (and as seen in the video) anytime you move to a new/different reference point (e.g. moving the depth gauge to a different point on the cutting head) you are NOT measuring the same thing any more. Ultimately it boils down to "How much accuracy is actually needed here?" As I am not an engine design engineer, machinist, or mechanic ... I can't speak to those tolerance requirements so my suggestions though more accurate ... might be excessive for the task at hand. Food for thought on your next measuring task to say the least ;)
The 1953 Willy's Jeep I drove for my C.O. had an "F" head engine, with intake valves in the head and exhaust valves in the block. A little different from flat heads with both valves in the block but probably a little more horsepower.
I haven't worked in a machine shop in almost 20 years but when I did we didn't use an antique like that thing to shave heads and blocks. That thing looks way more complicated than it needs to be. I applaud the fact that someone knows how to use it.
@@Myvintageiron7512 I could see decking blocks in it but the setup for heads is completely fucked and the danger to throw one is there. I could put an apprentice on newer machines and not worry about death and dismemberment but more important damage to antique parts.
done that before on the same model machine. not hard to do. but I use a dial indacator to zero it in .also beware when holding at the ends and pulling from the center plug holes...you may not end up with a fla head flat head... pull from the ends with the stancions across from the plug hole hold downs. he is talking about bowing it but dont set it up so it wont....Ive seen this way tomany times.
just about perfect work on that old head they only took as much as necessary you know it's right if you can see a little bit of the old surface a witness mark
Not everyone has access to good roads. Besides, you need the correct rope and most people try and substitute water ski ropes....ya just can't do that and expect good results.
The head was low in the middle and high on each end, but then again the way it was held down would have aggravated that. There should have been a hold down in all spark plug holes not just the middle two.
Wow i used one of those old time storm Vulcan broaches in the early 70's. Didn't think there were any still around. Always had to send the cutter head out to be reset and sharpened. Even when sharp the finish and accuracy was poor. You can't use them on modern engines with MLS gaskets. Even on old stuff they were shaky
Where did you see a broach cutter ? The only thing I see in the video was the indexable face mill , you couldn't have been talking about that cause those cant be sharpened , you have to change the inserts .
@@stevelamperta865 Buddy i lived it . There were company's in the late 60's and early 70's that actually sharpened the cutters for those machines and would set all the height's. they did not use the insert's we use today. Modern surfacing machines use a round CBN disk some use 2. You need a very solid heavy machine to use CBN and get a good finish. Those old time storm vulcan machines can't be converted not enough mass in the cutting head or the machine. The finish they produce was once exemptible on a car that was expected to last 100,000 miles and low performance by todays standards. Even then head gasket failure was an excepted thing and even gas stations repaired engines.
@@stevelamperta865 PS setting the heights is critical on those old machines or the finish will really suck! you cant just plug new inserts in. The original cutters had the inserts brazed in also. Some were just a solid piece of high speed steel ground to an edge.
Now the head needs to be CC'd in order to balance the combustion chambers out. The way the head was warped makes it so the two iner chambers should be larger then the outside two with the one closest to the camera the biggest.
I wonder if those two hold down bolts in the spark plug holes are causing it to bow down in the middle. if so, then they are messing it up by making it flat.
Likely flatter than it ever was from the factory. Nicely done. Don't need coolant, really, when taking such a light pass. That cast wouldn't even have time to heat up enough to cause any damage. I guess the milling head isn't level, I didn't see any cross hatching. Depending on how much the head is tilted, I guess there could be some cupping, but the head bolts and gasket will take care of that.
I don't know why everybody seems to think factories built bad parts. The new cranks being sold are out of spec and last week I had 5 pistons wouldn't fit over the rods. They also pack piston rings by weight and we had one kit short a ring and one kit with an extra ring. We never used to have the problems with quality that we have today with better equipment. Seriously, new tie rod ends that last 4000 miles is going forward?
is there anything better than watching big machines grind, mill and turn metal, long time back I did a miscellaneous machine and bench fitting course with oxy acetylene welding I loved it, but the government withdrew funding and the centre closed before I finished the course (skill centres UK full city and guilds qualifications) went down the pit instead, government closed them,
Hello Folks: Great machine and I suppose it makes grinding jobs fun! I would like to inquire why not remove the rust and carbon deposits using dremel/solvent/etc before grinding it perfectly planar? Also curious how much is the charge to do this for a 4 cyl engine--both mating surfaces?? By the way, what is this machine & process called?
Mike....how would shaving three and leaving a partial valve space affect the performance flow of air/exhuast gases? I would have thought the depression being factory milled,was for a reason in regards to the performance of the inlet/outlet valves.
I know very little of machining engine parts, but considering that head looked like it was at the bottom of the ocean for half a century, it came out pretty good.
Working in 3d control i ca say for sure that the head was warped because of the clamping. When i have to repair a device i check the device clamped and unclamped so i am sure i have no deformation.
The machine would have to be in really bad shape to not cut level, the foot that runs around the edge of the table just stays good. The old machine I ran 35 years ago looked terrible and produced superior cuts.
Arm Chair Machinists: It's NOT pulled low by the mounting bolts! .... He had only taken off .004" at that point ... it was SUPER obviously LOW in the middle because it was leaking water past the head gasket there. ... And what the hell is the rush "set it up in ten minutes" :) get stuffed .. it takes longer than that to find the work order in real life! :)
Couldn't hear when you said something about wire wheeling? What's wrong with using a wire wheel to remove gasket before machining? I worked in a machine shop a few years and used wire wheels every day
It seems really odd that it was out of true in the middle by that much where the bolts were holding it down. I probably would have cleaned it and checked with a quick flat sand
Now that's a tool everyone should have in there garage. I liked the video where some Goober invented his own method of resurfacing a cylinder head on a rice burner. A steel ruler and a piece of wood with sandpaper on it. Glad he's not working for NASA or with General Dynamics reactors. Ha!
Are you the R&R in molalla? Talked to you guys about doing my dads 49 wagon years back(2006), I got it done last summer , 6 year build, amc 401, 700r4, 241c, 77 waggy axels, 4.10 on BFG 33's, " my Willys ranch rig, in the family 68 years" Kaiser Willys website Jeep Blogs page 6? Its worth a look. You remember me, I got your info from a advertisement sheet at the Bomber restraunt, Milwaukie, only response ever you said! Cheers and stay safe.
If the head surface was warped to start with, why measure off of the warped side before starting to cut? Wouldn't it make more sense to measure off the other side of the head to the surface the head sits on?
Canadians are not dumb folks we have good machine shops here too and we do not talk about people to the south of here. Sorry to say but I am one of them.
Very cool.device. I have a very rusted cast iron bandsaw table top. Approximately 25 x 25 inches. Can this be placed on a device like yours and cleaned to bare metal?
That's a scary looking piece of equipment - scary expensive that is. I still don't quite get why this machine is built the way it is, particularly why it is so complicated. I'd watched another video of the same process before but it's by watching this video that I realised how much of an art setting the head level is and how one goes about determining it is level. The possibility of distorting the head in the process of levelling it is yet another dimension of the problem. The discussion about the head buckling though made me think: how do you know the head is not buckled in the first place? How do you go about it if it is? Do you try to correct the buckling using the props? I realise this may be a very silly question but it just really baffles me.
Stelios Posantzis we put a machinist edge on the head and checked the surface with a feeler gauge. I wanted the head flat and these things do warp. Just posted another video getting the rest back from the shop.
Watson's Wagons : Thank you for this. My original posting was not clear: I'm baffled by the principle behind this operation, not the execution. My reasoning is: if the whole head is warped and just its face is flattened, won't that just shift the problem elsewhere? And to be perfectly clear, I'm thinking of the case of a modern engine and not a flathead. My concern is that, on a modern engine head, the valve seats and valve guides will still be misaligned at the end of this operation. Wouldn't that create a problem with the cam? For example, assuming that the head's warping causes uneven loads on the overhead cam bearings, won't these get worn and introduce play in the cam axis? Please excuse my ignorance if all this is complete nonsense.
Stelios Posantzis cam bores could be misaligned on an overhead cam engine. But that would be checked and fixed on a line boring machine. Seats and guide would also be machined true again, but in another operation as well.
The worst deformation would be in the small section between the bores where the head would deform or burn away leaving ridges from the gasket especially on alloy heads resurfacing smoothes the head and restores the seal
No way would I have let that low spot on the head go. It looks as if it were around three or four thou of an inch. Why not just take it out? Carbon could build up under the head gasket causing the head to possibly crack in my opinion. Other than that one complaint, this was a good video. Thank you for your time in showing the world these skills.
@Ronald Farley actually the finish on those old machines was not good at all . i used one in the early 70's. You cannot use one on a modern engine that uses MLS gaskets .
Please tell me where is this shop for ever in my life carry something there, the grinder has a magnet base and the cutter in a circular stone, as well as they do these without brains is not done
Hi guys, can I add a comment, or ask a question. don't bite me If I`m wrong here, but you only have applied downward force in the centre 2 plug holes, would that not put distortion in the centre of the head when machining? or was it done that way for a reason.. thanks for the video anyway, it made me Interested enough to comment.. Thanks, Ivor from the UK.
Traveling Kaspers World Simple answer is... No. Flexible material is weak and when under pressures of combustion, would flex to relieve the pressure. That's why you have to have 2 perfectly matched surfaces that don't flex. The easiest surfaces to match are perfectly flat. Plastic is used in making intake manifolds and can flex to match surfaces but they don't have to withstand the abuse of constant combustion. So, no. I don't believe there's any material that is flexible and able stand up to combustion pressures and heat. Aluminum is a softer metal and had some flexibility but, it still has to be perfectly matched to the blocks surface or it will fail and fail much quicker than steel. It so flexible that it can easy warp by not properly torquing the head bolts and cause gasket failure, fairly quickly. I just can't see any metal being softer and more flexible than aluminum that could hold up to the extremes of an engine's combustion. Especially now with the horsepower that being generated by engine builders. If anything, engineers are designing engines with stronger materials and less tolerances to withstand higher compressions. Turbos, superchargers and the likes, have become commonplace amongst manufacturers and that means that engines have to last hundreds of thousands of miles without major failures. That means heat dissipation and cooling advancements over finding a material that can flex and still retain it's strength. So no. It's unlikely to look for flexible material to avoid having to be precise. Precision is way too easy to achieve with today's technology. Aluminum became a common engine building material for its ability to dissipate heat faster and it's obvious weight differences. It still doesn't have the strength of iron or steel but, it has other benefits that make it useful. Flexible is actually not a bonus at all. It has to be overcome to make it a viable engine building material. I just don't see anyone wasting their time developing a flexible material that's primary goal is to mold itself to imperfections of the manufacturing of an engine block or vise-versa. I'd say No. Not gonna happen.
Not flexible but history shows engines with the top combustion chamber solid to the bore but they were not that practical, also vw Beetle engines use no gasket just metal to metal
@@10Mbowman nope probably a bottom feeder job were the customer just wants it milled and does not want to pay for anything else. I used to call them one valve valve jobs. Just fix the burnt one. should be refused
Good luck finding a crack on a 80 year old head before you take all the rust off. He was using the resurfacer to clean the head. If I brought in an antique head and the re-builder used anything other than the re-surfacer on it to clean it , I would kick his a$$.
@@glennchartrand5411 or you can use a wire wheel or a glass bead cabinet or a sand blaster or a shot blast machine. machining the head to check for cracks is not an efficient way, It was probably a low buck job and the customer did not want to pay for cleaning and magnefluxing.
I would’ve personally wanted a smoother shinier surface without the deep cut likes to insure a leak free surface, but that old timer looks like he’s done plenty of em ;)
@@IntegraDIY MLS gaskets require a very smooth finish, the old school copper, and graphite gaskets need a less finished surface so it can grab and seal everything.
Definitely not many commenters know much about machining ....and "Watson's Wagons" doesn't seem to have a clue where he is. Jigging this head using a master level ......on a dirty corroded surface? The least that should be done is wire brush the surface and maybe use a cleaner. But a LEVEL???? DIAL INDICATE THE SURFACE. DIRECT READ EXACTLY HOW MUCH TO MOVE/ADJUST THE JACKS AND VERY QUICKLY CONFIRM DEAD-NUTS "LEVEL" FROM THE CUTTER HEAD OR FROM THE TABLE .....if you know the machine. Have these 14 bits been "jointed" to ensure the bit positioning is exactly the same for all the bits? At 7:42 it can be easily seen that only ONE bit is doing the majority of material removal. The evidence is the surface finish looking like a phonograph record ...only worse. Which bit or bits are actually cutting? The guy running the machine doesn't seem to care ....and the camera man obviously has no idea what he's looking at. Won't be able to see the surface finish once everything "looks" the same. Well, they think they know there aren't any cracks anywhere ....the checking was done in only one direction. YUP .....GET ER DONE!!! .
