Women in Ministry: PART 2 (1 Timothy 2 Debate) 

Strongly disagree when people bring up the braided hair and gold when Paul is clearly using them as examples and *not giving an exhaustive list* but giving examples of cultural immodesty. To hold someones feet to the fire with this type of literal interpretation seems disingenuous, because essentially what the egalitarian is saying is that if you take this passage in a complimentarian light, then Paul is *just* teaching that braided hair, gold, and jewels are the *only* ways one could be immodest in a worship setting, which also is something that no one would hold to. So does that mean that women can show lots of cleavage, or tube tops, or short shorts, as long as they aren't costly, of course ;) Remember, before answering, that Paul only prohibited those items, so those things must be the only way to be immodest. What if I said that a consistent egalitarian interpretation would allow me to just say that even modesty and good deeds were cultural and that Christians no longer need to remain modest in worship or pursue good deeds because it was just something cultural. That would be absurd and unfair too, but I think the proverbial knife cuts both ways. We need to use common sense and context to realize modesty and good deeds are clearly the focal point and that allowing for modern braided hair and gold doesn't make one *necessarily* inconsistent in their hermeneutic. “Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life.” (John 6:27) “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34) This limited negative literary device was a common use in the NT. We need to eat and clearly Jesus brought peace, but these styles are used to emphasize what is being taught. It does not mean the items being compared to are inherently sinful or outright prohibited. We need to examine context and what is being taught. If Jesus went on to say "For laboring for food is pride and unfaithful to God's provision" (bad analogy) then we would have grounds to examine not working for food. Paul taught in much the same way that when he was establishing specifics as doctrine, he would ground those specifics in other teachings or principles (e.g. verse 13). Ugh, more to say, but great show. Thanks for sharing Jeff and for taking time to sharpen others, even though we disagree! Great guest.

In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul wrote: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. ... If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (verses 33-35)....this is a clear and simple command, why do we see philosophy everywhere? God is The Same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow

Was it a cultural practice for women to have multiple husbands? From my understanding it was only males who practiced polygamy.

So glad you have reached out to Donna Howell from Chalk Talk. Appreciate that you are taking listener suggestions seriously.

Your guest was amazing. So good.

The text doesnt say anything about Artemis, but gives timeless reasons as to why, not cultural reason why Paul is saying what he is saying. The text itself gives the reason. Adding other reasons to the text is not necessary.

Just listened to this and the first one. They were great. Definitely listening to the next ones over the next couple of days. Even back then you guys where already killin' it :D

I have always been a 2 point compkementarian. As a women I am a minority these days. Thank you for allowing me to revisit the subject. I am still researching and thinking through scriotures on this, but I would now say I am a 1.5 point complementaian. :-D

Cant find the previous episode. Is it still available?

Jeff really goes through a lot of hoops here. He paints this picture of the authority of God's word. Then explains how people may come to different ideas on what is being said based on how they study (looking at ancient interpretations, cultural application and things like that). Then he throws doubt on the text that you guys talk about. He brings up doubts about Paul not possibly being the true author of Timothy. And tries to paint the picture of how Jesus addressed this issue (differently). If he really feels the Holy Spirit is dictating the scriptures he has a strange way of showing that by the contrast he is trying to start off with (in my opinion). It is a stretch to say someone is a leader (within the church) because their home is mentioned as a meeting place. If scripture does not say that these women were leaders why try to paint that picture? So before he starts to read the letter to Timothy he states "with all that said there is a extra ordinarily high attention to female leaders and influncers of the faith in scripture". Jeff does a very good job of giving biblical examples of how women are being used of God. But there are simply no good ties to support a woman being a pastor, elder, or a apostle teaching over a congregation of men and women. 1 Tim2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 1 Tim2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; (this gives clear indication that this teaching issue was not culturally related. But was based on creation) I think when Jeff talks about loosening he can't lose sight of what the scripture is clearly stating in certain passages. We may not understand what the scripture is stating in a particular area but that doesn't mean "loosen scripture" in other areas to get things to fit a ideology. Jeff takes a lot of liberty doing this, so it was funny when he was starting to put Josh in that camp. And Michael brought up a great point about the Bible and how it's translated. Josh and Michael you did a great job. Jeff seems like a nice guy but really left me scratching my head on some of the things he was espousing.

Maybe you did this.... but Craig Keener is excellent on this topic.

So then what do you do with Joel 2 that says the Spirit will be poured out on both men and women, and Ephesians 4 that describes gifts from Jesus, prophet, apostle, pastor, teacher, evangelist? Is it safe to say women can function in all of those roles but that “leadership” in a church should be reserved for men? Such as a women pastor but a governing board of men?

Christ like conversations are all good and fine, but you eventually have to take a stand for the truth. The scripture is very clear and very much there for a reason. Women cannot hold positions of power or authority in the congregation/Body of Christ.

Why did you not mention the word for woman in Timothy means wife? If Jeff did bring it up I missed it.

Egalitarian and Comp 1’s - Culture in that time dictated women were less than men and treated much differently and lower than men. Also... the women in this area were ruling over men.

Interesting...we need more discussion on this

I found out about the “cult” it’s culture from my investigation

I greatly struggle with the notion of restricting either gender based on convenience of a leader… specifically I do not see anywhere in scripture where convenience is a justifiable reason

I think Jeff wanted to make his point with the text rather than reading from the text. His claims that women's modesty examples are loose fails to recognize that standards of modesty change, while God's standards for gender do not.

I don't know where you got the idea that women are treated badly by true Godly men, if anything when men are submissive to God's authority they treat their wives better God, it says in God's word that when a man finds a good wife, God has found favor over that man.

If it is God's will that women can be pastors or teachers in the general assembly, why does Paul never clarify that, in any of his letters? Paul sometimes anticipates his readers' questions and states what he doesn't mean (example, 1 Cor. 5:10); he would have known that would be necessary for this topic. Would God, giving His word for the whole church for all time, leave in complementarian verses and passages that would lead many to think women can't be pastors, and not give any statements affirming otherwise? No female pastor is ever depicted or affirmed in the New Testament. Every single apostle and pastor/elder in the NT is male. Every single text that differentiates gender roles as far as leadership is at least apparently complementarian. And yet nowhere does God have any writer clarify otherwise. The text is as one-sided on this as it is on homosexuality.

It's difficult to understand the word ''authority''..Really ? The throne of God represent God authority.

It was established in the beginning that eve was created as a help mate for Adam not for women to be in authority over men.

You do know that there have been women in your comments wondering why you don't have any Women on your panel.

Why do you think Paul uses authenteó (authority) in verse 12, but he uses huperoché (authority) in verse 2? These words are both translated authority but they are different words?

So sad we even need stuff like this. Just do what God says and submit. Be happy of your role regardless. Its basic simple instruction.

1:02:00 Can you imagine how resentful that man must have been towards his wife. wow

The men are under God's authority. If this is established then we are living in accordance with God's will.

This is great !!!

God changes not. Adam was not ruling over Eve until AFTER the fall. “Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel came up to her for judgment.” (Judges 4:4-5, and chapters 4-5 talk about Deborah’s rule as Judge). She had a husband, but she ruled Israel, not him. When the leaders sought advice they sought her. “So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asaiah went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe (now she lived in Jerusalem in the Second Quarter), and they talked with her.” (2 Kings 22:14). Yet again, we have another female prophetess and she also has a husband. The High Priest and king sought HER for advice. She is the one they went to. It is more rare to hear of women having high roles and ruling but it certainly was not unheard of. GOD, accepted these woman in leadership roles. Was God breaking his own order/rules or forgot that He had supposedly made women (and even married woman) to rule and direct men and even the nation via the office of a Judge and/or Prophet? I think not. Yes, it is more common for men but it does not mean God has not and does not put women at times in high positions. Again, God changes not, and one day we will reign with Christ “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.” 1 Peter 2:9 That is for all the church-not just the males. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.” Galatians 3:25-29 We, those chosen by the Lord, are all equal heirs. And going back to the original sin, God cursed the woman: To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” Genesis 3:16 “But he shall rule over you”. Ruling over woman is part of the curse. And so has that cursed continued. But Christ came to redeem us from the curse. We are all called and anointed different ways by the Lord. And I think one has to ignore the at least two examples in the Bible when the LORD gave a high role of office of prophet/judge to women-and married women at that. In my first Brethren church, they explained that these examples are only to “shame” men since there was no man to take the role. But there is not ONE verse that states that. If we are to be scripturally honest, than we can’t add verses that are not there or make up meanings. And if there are biblical examples of GOD using women for roles we interpret as “against the will of God” because of what Paul states than that is our issue to work out. One scripture does not cancel out other scriptures. IF God used woman and placed them in high roles (albeit rarely), then we need to ALSO consider these verses in our pursuit to understand the will of God. I am glad the kings and high priests in Deborah’s and Huldah’s day didn’t discount them simply because they were not male despite their theology. God DID use them.

When I was born-again in 2012, one of the first things the Lord spoke to my heart was the word "pastor" with a vision of me speaking in front of a congregation. I have wrestled with this since then, prayerful that this vision was not of my own mind but the Lord's. Since then, I have been studying, and teaching and shepherding are gifts that have proven themselves in my walk. I am part of an egalitarian denomination, but I still cannot affirm women's congregational leadership ("pastoring") in my future because I believe disobeying the 1 Timothy 2 command is sinful. I also believe God's order of creation (first Adam, then Eve) and that women are more prone to deception because of the fall. I also believe I can teach and shepherd in the context of women's ministry and children's ministry, and that I am able to lead Bible study groups for women-only. I also believe I am able to participate in co-ed Bible study groups, just not lead one. As far as speaking in front of a congregation, I did speak to the congretation of women at our church during a women's conference. I would love to hear the perspective of other women who have been called as a pastor and shepherd and what this looks like for you!

Can we do a preamdam race study

Josh, you seemed to want to question Jeff's assertion that (1321 [e] didaskein διδάσκειν) was an uncommon word used for teaching. I kinda wished you would have pressed a little harder... form(s) of this word are used upwards of 97 times in scripture. We have been trying to tackle this issue among our elders and this series has been really helpful. Thank you guys.

Loved this.

I am so thankful on learning more about this topic. But is there a way of getting that Psalm 42 - Poster? :D

Ugh, I wanted to call in for this one, but was travelling. :/ I'm thankful you brought up the angle of those of us in the Sacramental and Liturgical wing of Christendom. I would highly recommend you interviewing a Bishop in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area: Bishop Keith Ackerman. He's a wonderful, compassionate Bishop who is very knowledgeable about this issue. He can help fill in the details for a Sacramental perspective of this. God bless you all! P.S.--If you want to invite Bishop Ackerman for this issue or others from the Sacramental and Liturgical perspective, I think he would enjoy being on the show. I can ask him for ya'll if you want.

Good session

Woman can preach and teach to men. If u say nope. Then u better be ready to shut down Seminarys for woman and also not allow them to write books . As some man might actually read a Christian theology book written by a woman and a man might read it and learn something.

I don’t know if anyone will see this message..but I’m a bit confused why Jeff is a practicing 2 point complementarian if he holds this egalitarian viewpoint so passionately? Am I missing something? Recently discovered you guys and I love it! Keep up the good work :)

19:24 there’s churches that don’t allow clothes 😶 lol

Ezer Kenegdo, this is the word translated helpmeet in the kjv. Ezer Kenegdo is defined as rescuer, savior, helper, warrior. Woman cannot pass sin to their offspring only men do that. Jesus was born of a woman and born sinless. Eve was not present when Adam was told not to eat from the tree "otkogae" romans 5, where there is no law, there is no transgression. Adam was responsible for making her wise in this matter but if you listen carefully you have to realize she doesn't know much. "The tree in the midst of the garden we may not eat from," well the tree in the midst of the garden is the tree of life and no restriction is in place on that tree. "And neither shall you touch it, lest you die" this is the practice of chumra, a Hebrew tradition "fencing a law." Deuteronomy 22:8 While talking with the snake she doesn't even know that she's at the tree that she's not allowed to eat from. Read carefully. And Adam is standing right there listening as the snake slanders God and does not object what so ever. Then when confronted by God Eve is the only one to mention the serpent. She did usurp authority over her husband Adam because Adam does not mention the snake because God had told him to "keep" the garden as in protect, Adam's not going to fess up that he fail to do that so he doesn't want to mention the snake. Eve does and this has been man's effort ever since to keep her quiet, so she doesn't make him look bad again.

There's a church in Alberta with a female Pastor lead pastor. And now all the men have the feminist spirit. Very interesting. So that means these men are going to be prancing around the gay village within to 10-15 years

Sooooooo where is your woman cohort to share on this subject?????

Biblically the issues with women in ministry & their speaking in church was about their lack of education leading to teaching errors & disruption of services within the cultures the letters were written too. This advice is not relevant to modern western society as women are well educated & generally far more spiritually astute & disciplined than churched men are. These letters were written to specific congregations to addressed specific issues they were having at that time. These issues generally do not exist in in modern western church culture.

I guess this is an important topic for lots of people, especially those who don't have much discernment. But if the Lord uses eunuchs, who were to be cut off from Israel, then he uses women. How he uses them is up to him. I like this scripture which ought to be put before many others: "So from now on, we know no one after the flesh. Even if we once knew Christ after (according to or by) the flesh, yet now we know him this way no longer." (2 Corinthians 5:16)

You ladies please bear in mind, on your coming Judgment Day you will be judged on your willingness and obedience to the Divinely endorsed Scripture teachings and instructions that follow. Now, regarding the false teaching for the emancipation of women in the Christian fraternity. Such 21st-century contrived beliefs are in contravention and defiance of the Lord's command for women to remain silent in the church assemblies. "As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God's people), 34 The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says. 35 But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [ for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church]. 36 What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you? 37 If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) What what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord**. 38 But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [ that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one whom God knows not]. 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 (AMPLIFIED ,BIBLE) Thus if any insist on disregarding the Lord's command for a woman's silence they have become "One whom God knows not" Which is a most undignified and ungodly position any man or woman could possibly find themselves. For even St. Paul's instruction makes it quite plain that women are forbidden to teach men and must not usurp their God given authority. "11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV) As for wives and their Divinely appointed permanent position in regards to their husbands. "22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. "Ephesians 5:22-24 (KJV) Thus complete obedience "in everything" to husbands, just as the church is called to be completely obedient to the laws and instructions of Christ and his personally ordained Apostles. Now from St. Peter: "You married women, be submissive to your own husbands [subordinate yourselves as being secondary to and dependent on them, and adapt yourselves to them], so that even if any do not obey the Word [of God], they may be won over not by discussion but by the [godly] lives of their wives, 2 When they observe the pure and modest way in which you conduct yourselves, together with your reverence [for your husband; you are to feel for him all that reverence includes: to respect, defer to, revere him-to honor, esteem, appreciate, prize, and, in the human sense, to adore him, that is, to admire, praise, be devoted to, deeply love, and enjoy your husband]." 1 Peter 3:1-2 (AMPLIFIED BIBLE) And St. Peter again: "5 For it was thus that the pious women of old who hoped in God were [accustomed] to beautify themselves and were submissive to their husbands [adapting themselves to them as themselves secondary and dependent upon them]. 6 It was thus that Sarah obeyed Abraham [following his guidance and acknowledging his headship over her by] calling him lord (master, leader, authority). And you are now her true daughters if you do right and let nothing terrify you [not giving way to hysterical fears or letting anxieties unnerve you]." 1 Peter 3:5-6 (AMPLIFIED BIBLE) Those wives who refuse to comply are not the true "Daughters of Sarah" but counterfeits who are trying to subvert other women into disobeying Christ's personally ordained Apostles, and their unchanging instructions for the true and faithful Daughters of Almighty God. For the Lord Christ has stated....By their fruits shall you know them".

At about 19 min. You discuss the clothing heading etc. I heard anither minister mention that in that area was the temple of one of the major goddess of the time. I forget the name. But those adornments are what women would do to relate and show they worshiped that goddess. If I can find that RU-vid vid I'll link it here.

This week I was reading 1 Timothy 2:11-15 while searching for materials I found Chery Schatz's article and it was very insightful. It would be great if you bring her to the show. I haven't seen any complementarian who exeget being honest to the grammer. I would like to see her discussing with a complementarian.