Xenocara: That X11 Server That Isn't Xorg

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When you think of an X11 server on Linux there's pretty much only 1 option, Xorg and that's ok but it hasn't always been like this. In the past there were a bunch of options albeit most were terrible. But nowadays there is still another one called Xenocara
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Опубликовано:

21 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 134

@BrodieRobertson Год назад

I am aware of the fish, apparently Kdenlive sometimes forgets to render an image if it's a webm. I'll keep that in mind

@sammyfromsydney Год назад

The dig at Stallman was a bit much given that he contributed to Emacs, the GNU compilers and gdb. I've met the man once and he was downright unpleasant to me, but credit where it's due.

@BrodieRobertson Год назад

@@sammyfromsydney that wasn't a dig at Stallman, he has literally said that doesn't install Linux he just gets someone else to do it. Search RU-vid for "I've never installed gnu/linux" - Richard Stallman

@CMDRSweeper Год назад

@@sammyfromsydney Well I separate what Stallman is as values for software and how he is a person. What he is pushing for and is doing is good for Linux, he is the counterweight on the far end of the teeter-tooter that keeps the other side from holding it down and spoiling the fun. As a person though, I get that he is the most... Horrific person with statements and issues that I greatly dislike and can't agree with.

@excidium666 Год назад

He's just an eccentric weirdo, as is typical of high IQ types. Kind of a blessed curse

@JohnMacaflee Год назад

it's not a bug, it's a fish-ure

@ОлегСаперенко Год назад

6:18 great illustration brodie, thank you I enjoyed looking at that fish

@baddie-ls7gp Год назад

I love this fish!

@speedytruck Год назад

Btw, the rootless feature was upstreamed when it was created in 2014, and Fedora has been using it in their Xorg session since then. The biggest difference is still the bad and monolithic build system in Xenocara.

@davidfrischknecht8261 8 месяцев назад

Most distros are running X as non-root by now.

@Psychx_ Год назад

Regarding Hyperbola wanting to create their own distro: They could totally join forces with Chimera-Linux, which already uses a non-gnu userland. All that's needed beyond that would just be a build of the Linux-Libre kernel.

@florianfelix8295 Год назад

Hyperbola doesn’t want to use Linux anymore.

@lawrencedoliveiro9104 Год назад

Looking at their “roadmap” page, several of the issues they cite seem not to be relevant any more. Also, the irony of wanting to build new GPLv3 components on top of one of the notoriously GPL-allergic BSDs seems to have been lost on them.

@Psychx_ Год назад

@@florianfelix8295 They didn't want to use it due to many issues that Chimera has already solved. Perhaps they don't even know about that project… Rust is opt-in aswell btw and the page about it's alleged "freedom flaws" hasn't even been written lol. Dependencies can be pre-downloaded and shipped for scenarios without internet access. Java isn't mandated by anything even remotely critical for the OS either. The argument about Linux "forcing DRM upon people" is utterly silly. It can be disabled through the kernel config and then doesn't even get compiled. Chances are that it wouldn't work in a libre kernel either way. Then they have the usual crap like "systemd bad, pulseaudio bad and wrong license", etc. PipeWire (PulseAudio replacement) is MIT licensed. If they don't even like this, then they won't like anything. But sure, if they want to burn tens of thousends of man-hours creating a niche of a nice of a niche OS and restrict software choices and HW compatibility as a "means to allow for more freedom", then can go ahead of course; it's not my time they're wasting afterall. This project gives me strong vibes of these people thinking that regular libre Linux distros just became "too mainstream" :P

@classicrockonly Год назад

@@lawrencedoliveiro9104 they might as well just make a proprietary OS. Not much different in practice

@formbi Год назад

@@Psychx_ it's written under a different name, the trademark stuff (which is indeed quite worrisome)

@elmariachi5133 Год назад

Wayland is nearly done since so long now, I am starting to doubt that xorg will be the last poplular and relevant X11 implentation we will see.

@rhekman Год назад

Back in the mid nineties Red Had Linux (just that, not RHEL, pre-Fedora) shipped fvwm and fvwm95 (Windows 95 theme) before Gnome was a thing. We pronounced it "foo-voom".

@brunothedev Год назад

xenocara is really just an non-modular xorg

@lawrencedoliveiro9104 Год назад

9:29 Also, I tried checking out the link about the supposed Java dependency, and all it seems to say is that the Java-related documentation is still built even if you disable the Java functionality. If you turn off the Java functionality, you will end up with a Java-free build, as expected.

@SirWuffleton 9 месяцев назад

I found the window manager lineage part to be interesting! Love those neat little bits of FOSS lore of how forks and derivatives evolve!

@replikvltyoutube3727 Год назад

Knowing Openbased, X11 will make comeback with their implementation

@owlmostdead9492 Год назад

Sure buddy

@kreuner11 Год назад

Huh, it's just a small fork from Xorg which makes it more modular

@terrydaktyllus1320 Год назад

@@owlmostdead9492 Yet another angry Waylander wanting a few more FPS in "Cybersplatt 4044" on the graphics card that mummy and daddy got it for Christmas and just blames Xorg as a result. I can smell you a mile off.

@KodLiokoSrbija Год назад

@@terrydaktyllus1320 Sure buddy

@terrydaktyllus1320 Год назад

@@KodLiokoSrbija I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to your "pretend Internet friend". You run along now, mind how you go and stay away from sharp scissors. Discussion closed.

@BrenoSilveira94 Год назад

Xenocara also comes with a fork of XDM called Xenodm.

@baddie-ls7gp Год назад

Yay! I use Xenocara on my laptop, but I learned a lot from this video. Go Brodie!

@lawrencedoliveiro9104 Год назад

9:29 Interesting. I tried following the link to the purported “freedom flaws” in Rust, and got a page in Hyperbola’s own wiki saying “Permission denied/Sorry, you don’t have enough rights to continue”.

@bluephreakr Год назад

Just look elsewhere. With a bold line like that, there's likely someone who'd re-upped / distilled the information elsewhere.

@hotdog9259 Год назад

Managed to find it. My comment will probably get nuked if it contains a link, but it's in the sidebar on the permission denied page. Basically, the Rust Foundation enforces very strict trademarks on both the names Rust and Cargo, and also on the Rust logo, making it difficult to say, redistribute it without a complete rebrand.

@yxtqwf Год назад

@@hotdog9259 What the Rust Foundation is doing is absolutely evil and indefensible (The Primeagen made a video about it - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-gutR_LNoZw0.html ) - I had been considering learning Rust, but after seeing this, I think it would be a good idea to avoid Rust as much as possible until this situation is dealt with

@martin.1976 Год назад

@@hotdog9259 Just had the same issue; the side-bar brings you to their main wiki page and you can find it there. I didn't even know that part about Rust - and tbh., when I first heard of it being included in the Linux Kernel, I first thought it was some mis-timed April Fools joke or somebody trolling in a rather funny way ...

@TatharNuar Год назад

You know, the stuff at the end about HDCP reminds me about how the HDMI standard is *really* hard to get your hands on for building an open-source driver.

@bruceknee4941 Год назад

Thanks for making these videos, I've used freebsd and openbsd and usually when I ask about some obvious difference from linux nobody can ever answer!

@bahathir_ Год назад

cwm? evilwm? Yes!!! My all time favorite window manager.

@AndrewErwin73 Год назад

"pulling at straw" that is my new catch phrase.

@BrodieRobertson Год назад

grasping, pulling, it all means the same

@JohnDegen_aka_Jeehannes 7 месяцев назад

I've just returned to OpenBSD after a 18 month gap, and I still love everything about it, including of course Xenocara. I used CWM for a long time and it's a great and superfast light WM. Now I use spectrwm tiling WM. Linux distros all feel clunky, incomplete or bloated after using OpenBSD.

@PenguinRevolution Год назад

I run Xorg on my computers these days, but I have used Xenocara before on OpenBSD. It's actaully an interesting way to use the X11 protocol and I think more Linux distros should be using it!

@speedytruck Год назад

Why's that? What's in Xenocara that you miss in Xorg?

@PenguinRevolution Год назад

@@speedytruck Xenocara is more secure because it doesn't run as root.

@speedytruck Год назад

@@PenguinRevolution Xorg doesn’t need to run as root either. Fedora has been running rootless Xorg since 2014. The biggest difference between the two is that the build system is worse in Xenocara just because the OpenBSD devs are allergic to GNU for some reason.

@PenguinRevolution Год назад

@@speedytruck GNU doesn't use the BSD license, that's why. Also fedora has made significan modifications to xorg to make it run that way.

@speedytruck Год назад

@@PenguinRevolution > GNU doesn't use the BSD license, that's why. I said this in another comment, but it's stupid to use inferior software just because it's not your favorite free software license flavor. The FSF certified Linux-libre distros don't use 100% GPL software because that would be stupid. > Also fedora has made significan modifications to xorg to make it run that way. Everything is in upstream Xorg. You can run rootless Xorg on Debian or Arch if you want to. Xenocara has no reason to exist beside some dumb bureaucracy in OpenBSD.

@guss77 Год назад

FVWM is one of the first window managers I've used (right there with Window Maker), which was also about the time I was using CVS... I'm so glad we moved away from all of these😅 Seriously - people are still using CVS for version control in real projects?!? Even if you don't like git (too Linux) or Subversion (too... central? I mean, you use CVS, what are you even about), there are other options - Fossil is pretty good and is BSD 2-clause licensed, it doesn't get freer than that. (I was going to say that there are many options, but aside from Fossil and Subversion - which is Apache - everything else is GPL, and we know how well that is going to go...)

@anon_y_mousse Год назад

Well, at least it's not RCS, but what about Mercury, why would they not use it if they hate all the rest?

@guss77 Год назад

@@anon_y_mousse you probably meant Mercurial? As I mentioned, it is GPL licensed (as basically any FLOSS SCM other than those mentioned), which is an anathema for BSD developers (they consider GPL a non-free license).

@anon_y_mousse Год назад

@@guss77 Yes, Mercurial, I keep calling it mercury because of the program name. I tend to think of the GPL as a non-free license too, but if I'm only using a piece of software I don't care. If I need to modify something it depends on if I'm going to distribute it, that's the only time I'd worry about dropping it.

@speedytruck Год назад

It's really stupid to use inferior software just because it's not your favorite free software license flavor. Those FSF certified Linux-libre distros don't use 100% GPL software because that would be stupid... It's also the whole reason why Xenocara exists :/

@guss77 Год назад

@@speedytruck yes, Xenocara exists - according to Brodie, at least - because BSD folks don't like the Xorg build system, and I would tend to think that their problem is mostly it's "non-free license". They also often raise a lot of good points about design quality, but many times they let design quality slide for things that are BSD licensed.

@Iamnotagenius Год назад

I think not having any of the proprietary stuff is not an advantage, but a brag fuel.

@speedytruck Год назад

User freedom is brag fuel?

@Vekstar 8 месяцев назад

Yes@@speedytruck

@cameronmoore136 Год назад

9:43 Linux Newbie, here. When they say "DRM" do they mean "digital rights management" or something else?

@anon_y_mousse Год назад

Yes.

@cameronmoore136 Год назад

@@anon_y_mousseThat's lame. But I'm guessing Linux would be at a fairly sizeable disadvantage compared to other operating systems who fall in line? Like I've heard Linux accepts proprietary blobs because they feel 100% is heavily preferred but not all that viable as of today? Is this a similar case?

@anon_y_mousse Год назад

@@cameronmoore136 Yeah, Linux just wants to get stuff done, so they accept non-free blobs. Doesn't necessarily make them better though. We should all strive for freedom.

@cameronmoore136 Год назад

@@anon_y_mousse I agree. Hopefully in the somewhat near future open source can stand on its own too legs.

@OldieBugger Год назад

I had no idea the X11 works as root. This sounds like a flaw in any OS using X11 (most of Linux distros atm, I believe). Maybe not a fatal flaw, but still a flaw.

@speedytruck Год назад

Fedora has been using rootless Xorg since 2014.

@OldieBugger Год назад

@@speedytruck Good for them.

@therealchonk Год назад

Just yesterday OpenBSD 7.3 cam eout and I upgraded my laptop to it (from 7.2). I encountered a strange bug when using my dwm build: As soon as I click on a window, it stays as the focused window forever; no matter if I change to a different tag, or click on another window. All mouse events will be directed to the first focused window, but not the key events. The fix is apparently pressing the right mouse button after I focus the first window; after that everything works fine. This issue even persists after re-logins and reboots. I'm probably gonna report it soon.

@martin.1976 Год назад

As a long-term OpenBSD user, I am obviously quite a bit biased in that regard and I also don't really want to get into licensing politics here, but what exactly is the use-case for a BSD/Linux hybrid? Furthermore, I don't believe that it's a good investment of somebody's time to write a GPLv3 licensed device driver for some "obscure" Distro / OS hybrid - because why not contribute that new driver to OpenBSD itself? Doing so would also ensure that the work won't be completely "lost" in case that distro isn't around anymore in a couple years. I am absolutely not against small and independent Linux distributions - especially not those that try to break free from the mainstream - but unfortunately, there have been so many of these projects over the past years where that initial enegy and enthusiasm eventually withered away until the project effectively ceased to exist.

@LinuxPlayer9 Год назад

I've installed garuda recently on my laptop. Great distro, I've found nothing more suitable for my Linux needs. But xenocara seems like a good idea, why isn't openbsd philosophy more common among linux distros ? And why don't I ever see people use OpenBSD as their operating system (using a graphical interface for example) ?

@lawrencedoliveiro9104 Год назад

If you want a Linux distro built around that philosophy, you know what you can do.

@phylwx Год назад

Garuda gang!

@bluephreakr Год назад

EndeavourOS is also pretty good for an Arch-alike, _Arch-faithful_ distribution. Never been fond of Garuda Linux, _especially_ not fond the desktop wallpaper they used last I looked at it was likely an asset they never asked permission to use. Combined with its previous faults people in Disord Linux are keen to point out, I'm wary about recommending it over EndeavourOS.

@classicrockonly Год назад

My guess people don’t use xenocara because they expect Wayland to take over. As for OpenBSD, people don’t tend to use it much bc they sacrifice performance at the cost of code correctness and security. Linux users want fast code. Fast code has costs. Likewise, I find OpenBSD people have an even stronger anti-proprietary software compared to the more extreme Linux users. You won’t find any proprietary code running on my OpenBSD computer, minus the firmware I guess

@thelakeman2538 Год назад

Probably a lot more effort for things even the average linux user would never care about. OpenBSD seems to be good for making a secure internet facing server but as a desktop os, not that good. BSD operating systems are fundamentally different from linux based ones even if they share unix ancestry, so a lot of linux software that hasn't been written for openbsd will simply not work without a compatibility layer, and from my understanding openbsd removed theirs for security reasons.

@formbi Год назад

you shoul've talked about the included examples (aside from the DRM, a reasonable thing to dislike), they're quite funny (similar to the anti-systemd talking points)

@egorandreevich7830 Год назад

what problems does drm have?

@formbi Год назад

@@egorandreevich7830 well, restricting user freedom? (it's about digital restrictions management, not direct rendering manager)

@AlucardNoir Год назад

The kind of linux you'd use if you were Richard Stallman, but knew how to install linux. Oh, shots fired. Also, not even a mention of how X11 is dead, and LONG LIVE WAYLAND! Nothing? really?

@Sitwayen Год назад

On the black board

@AlucardNoir Год назад

@@Sitwayen LOL, DAMN IT! I missed it. Thanks for brightening my day. It's not every day that I butst into laughter.

@thiagoassisfernandes Год назад

Still want a nixos video

@formbi Год назад

also Guix

@heshamkhalil2215 Год назад

its really a good video thanks

@classicrockonly Год назад

Been using OpenBSD on my desktop for almost a year now. It’s been good, and I appreciate the security focus and simplicity a lot. I don’t see myself using the Linux desktop anytime soon

@philipmrch8326 Год назад

Does anyone actually use OpenBSD?

@steinersantos3986 11 месяцев назад

6 months using obs and untill now im very happy, is much more fun study a os like that .... was not about security is about simplicity too.

@philipmrch8326 11 месяцев назад

@@steinersantos3986 Why would you use it over Linux though? I'm genuinely curious.

@GafftheHorse Год назад

I'm interested in these sorts of distros and often considered trying BSD but I'm not confident that wine will run and I have one or two other pieces of software I still use regularly windows and linux based that I'm not confident will run on these more exotic software stacks.

@zeckma Год назад

I actually completely forgot about how rust needs an internet connection to download crates and stuff for compilation. So in the future, if some things you need working require Rust code, stuff like Linux From Scratch can be more difficult, making internet a requirement, not an option. Yikes.

@0x007A Год назад

Rust is cancer and I do not want my operating system kernel oxidising.

@zeckma Год назад

To be clear, I think Rust is fine at the end of the day, but when it uses more disk space and makes internet a requirement just so I can compile something critical to make my system actually boot and work, it becomes a problem, a problem I don't want to deal with.

@dynfoxx Год назад

@@zeckma As far as I know nothing core to Rust requires and internet connection. Cargo can work with local dependencies or a local git repositories. I would think of it more as if you are missing headers you need to grab a source package. You could even bundle Rust packages as source packages. While not having a set in stone abi and api makes it more unwieldy, it's not very diffent from current practice.

@quazar-omega Год назад

It doesn't sound like an impossible thing to change, a quick search turns up some promising results ("How to build project with Cargo offline" on stackoverflow), but I'm not experienced in that so maybe there are some rough edges still. What has me more curious is how the Rust ecosystem implicitly has some things that go against freedom according to the announcement

@zeckma Год назад

@dylanfoxx3396 I hope then that the kernel, if it needed external packages, would ship them with the kernel. To be honest, I don't know much about Rust, but I know installing rustup and that stuff, it required an internet connection to be updated on crates. I'm hoping for the best, thank you for correcting me as well!

@edmund3504 Год назад

i have been thinking about trying openBSD 😅

@NonameEthereal Год назад

If your hardware is supported (I use it on an 11th Gen Framework), highly recommended. The install is super-simple - just accept defaults and you'll have a desktop and xendom installed real quick. I've been thinking about trying out a Gnome install for giggles, but that's for some other time. Just remember the big "learning curve": don't google. Use man pages. They're actually useful. Took me so many hours of frustration at not finding things on google, finally giving the man page a go, and... yup. Right there. Exactly what I needed to know.

@HecUnderscore Год назад

BASED FISHY

@Scoopta 8 месяцев назад

HDCP support does bother me...the rest is whatever.

@Spookylynn_ Год назад

brodie could you please use dark mode or at least try doing forced dark mode

@peachestv621 Год назад

light mode is good though

@desertfish74 Год назад

flashbangs detected

@speedytruck Год назад

Why? Some people would like to keep their vision. Squinting to see white letters over a black screen like that is not good for you if you're in a well lit environment.