YugiBoomer vs YugiZoomer - The Most Heated Debate In Reddit History 

Someone has to animate this

Op would definitely pull out a stun deck then say “no I understand summoning…that it should be stopped at all costs so I don’t have to deal with it!”

@@ibra8096 you already know his ass is gonna top deck mystic mine XD

@@ibra8096 And thus, we would see that both sides are the same. Complaining about an aspect of the game, because they don't enjoy it.

The Reddit Duelist tournament

Have you never played elemental hero neos alius?

​@@-rolyat44I dunno, have you? No I'm serious, show me a deck where you legitimately Gemini summon neos alius.

@@-rolyat44 when was the last time you used Alius for it's effect to be normal summoned again and change it's name to "Elemental Hero Neos". And if you bring up Gemini Spark then it's just the same situation as Driver or Loci, the card themselves aren't good, it's the incidental synergy.

Gemini comes in pairs so it has one more life to lose

Honestly every summoning mechanic can be broken because Konami can bend their rules whenever they want. Just look at fusions

With witnesses confirming who won the best of 3 or if it was a 1 duel thing, in the end even that can become an argument.

both argument semblence a candle of truth but guy who challange the other to duel is mostly correct. i think the other guy should just say "ok, you understand the state of the game better than me then" because what else you can definitely answer which have better "understanding" its like saying you're bad at driving then refuse to race in city because you argue that the city have random element of traffic

imagine wasting your time being on reddit

everything was correct except that last part. Creativity in yu-gi-oh is dead and gone.

Pretty sure you and farfa slightly missed the point here, Netdecking is when you see a winning YCS or something else deck and just straight up copy it no questions asked, Sitting and researching on multiple decks is precisely what's not net-decking The issue with net-decking is the people are borderline ignorant about their deck and tech options 'Like bro, why did keep card X in your deck but never used in in the past 20 games?' 'oh that card, idk how it's used, I just saw the YCS guy use it so I am using as well' This is net decking

@@vivanmaurya No. Netdecking is just when you copy whatever the strongest decklist is from the internet. Not whatever mumbo jumbo you're trying to make it.

@@cfelton2nd some tech was straightly busted than other,so its quite understandable if few people using the same card from 20+ decklist (like ash on almost every deck)

@@vivanmaurya pretty sure what you're reffering is meta sheep mentality,not netdecking in general In if thats guy was clearly new in the game,then its understandable Because winning is main goal for few ppl

Pull Yourself Up By Your -Bootstraps- boosterpacks

Floodgate shutting down effect that related to monster was the major selling point for boomer Hence why almost old school deck support always end in floodgate-style play (like buster blader or blue eyes synchro) Its either you make so many complicated action, or just sit there with floodgate

@@abdurachmanromzy4778 It's just funny cause it fits the stereotype of boomers playing floodgate decks. There's a Ruggles quote that coder uses as a notif which says "And what do you do if you don't know the game? You play floodgates."

It really annoys me that instead of going to a format they like they instead stick with the Yugioh they hate and make it everyone else’s problem

​@@FrostReavenot to mention hating on the lack of interactivity while at the same time feeding into it by playing uninteractive stun decks

seriously, the amount of times I played at locals and some dude in his 40's was playing either chain burn/stall exodia/floodgate stun turbo is crazy, like i get a lot of the points they make, i played yugioh back in the day too, and i also miss how it used to be, but I also spent the time learning each new mechanic and there is plenty the i like about the modern game too. but these boomers just playing floodgate stun decks and then complaining about the game dont really deserve an opinion honestly, they dont even bother to learn the new mechanics, but then somehow also think they are qualified to complain about them, like what?

a lot of returning players act like we woke up one day and boom we have 5 new summoning mechanics and new rulings, there are entire shows dedicated to showcasing each summoning mechanic a lot of newer /younger players grew up with these shows as well so did older players who have stuck to playing/watching Yugioh

They come back to the game after 10+ years and expect NOT to have a lot of catching up and adapting to do

Yugioh definitely has needed a system to teach people to play the game one step at the time. The only thing I know that did that was “Legacy of the Duelist” game. That’s how I learned modern Yugioh

But also, a lot of the new/returning players didn't realize that they weren't there to see each individual brick being laid either. Is it not irrational to come back to the game after FIFTEEN YEARS and expect it to stay more or less the same? Yugiboomers bitching about hand traps while they're older than counter trap cards will never be not stupid in my eyes. They KNOW about Kuriboh, it's the OG handtrap, and yet when it comes to Ash Blossom suddenly they have a problem. Synchro summoning. Need a Tuner, add their levels, summon the monster. Xyz summoning. 2 monsters, same name, literally stack them on top. Pendulum summoning. To be fair, this is complicated enough to summarize in one sentence. Link summoning. 2 monsters, count their link ratings, summon it. Even Fusion summoning rarely do the iconic "poly + 2 monsters specified" methods anymore. Shaddoll Fusion came out 9 years ago. Even Ritual summoning no longer uses the old method. They HAVE TO change, otherwise Gishki and so many of its successors will never exist. For what it's worth, I have always been open in welcoming new players and teaching them the basics. Even something as basic as "these cards share a word in their name, that's archetype. Cards within certain archetypes usually have similar effects, so you can skip some blocks of texts." But when I see people just dismiss the concept of fucking hand traps which are as ancient as the game itself, it does get exhausting. Are you even a REAL Yugiboomer if you don't understand hand traps when all they are is "Kuriboh, but better"? And this is the most basic of the basic, you teaching a Yugiboomer how Kuriboh works will just end in them accusing you of mansplaining Kuriboh. Meanwhile, I sat here thinking "bitch, if you know this then you don't get to pretend you don't know what Veiler does". Special summoning is also a lot like ladders, either you climb them one step at a time or good luck roping yourself up the wall. They just see the opponent summoning a lot of monsters and go "this is too hard I don't want to understand". Meanwhile, how do you even know when to break the ladder steps if you don't even want to observe your opponent climbing it? The big problem with Yugiboomers isn't that YGO has become too hard. I'm sure a lot of veterans will sympathize. The big problem is that, even with their hands being held, they just refuse to learn because "card text long, special summon bad, hand traps bad". And the ones who do actually want to learn doesn't bitch like this on the internet.

​@@user-hz5zn8yd1vand Konami is recognizing they are asking for people to adapt to too much, which is why they started things like Speed Duels and Time Wizard.

It's basically "the Flower Cardian situation". We never see yugiboomers complain about that deck despite having notoriously long combo lines because it doesn't end on anything substantial, meanwhile you can do a simple Salad line and end on like 4 interactions that takes 10 minutes MAX and they'll start crying or some shit. If the board isn't strong then who gives a shit how long it takes to get there.

@@thepronoob4039 it's funny, my Yugiboomer friend does actually has a problem with the decks that can effectively play for minutes/endlessly but having nothing strong to end on. He legitimately called my Fur Hire deck "boring and non-threatening to play against."

There is some truth to this. But trying to define the problems Extreme Yugi Boomers have is pointless. Its wildly different from what they remember so they dislike it. Its really that simple from what I've seen

@FrostReave it's not only different problematic to the game it's apart of, making large portions redundant and alienating old and new players alike. Also, I have a problem with Flower Cardian just as much as I have a problem with Prank Kids, just as much as I have a problem with Dragon Link, any pendulum deck, and even something as particular as Striker. The end board is distinct from the process to getting there. On this note, at least Striker manages an interesting end board, despite the overreliance on tagging via special summoning. The shorter the combo per turn, the closer the game returns to the way Takahashi intended it.

@@Reapehify A game does not need to be simple to be good. Besides which Yugioh is a complicated game not by design but because of 25 years of additions. That’s what happens in any game although Konami has certainly been fueling it out of greed. How Takahashi envisioned the game is irrelevant. None of these are objective complaints. They are subjective opinions and should be spoken and treated as such. Just be honest and say you don’t like how the game is now and stop trying to force your opinions on others And you need to accept that it’s never gonna go back because that’s a fact they can’t make any of the changes that you suggest even if they were valid. Either adapt, go to old formats, or quit and find something else you like.

It's also that it wasn't a problem with the games development, the yugioh from back then wasn't a result of it being a better game, it was lack of information. If yugioh was as popular now as back then there would still be little kids playing a lower power format that they think exists (source: there's a kid at my locals who still thinks this is how yugioh is)

Exactly. You can still go play a deck with 10 YGO cards and 60 from other TCGs in a playground, nobody's stopping you. The problem is these people get into MD ranked, want everyone else to play like that and start to cry and whine as soon as they see a link monster. Idk what Farfa is going on about in this video, OP is just a generic boomer that clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.

This is a fairly reasonable take. I don’t think they are wrong to not like the modern Yugioh they are entitled to an opinion. What I take issue with is them trying to force their needs and opinion on others and generally making a nuisance of themselves. They need to just go to goat format because they will never like modern Yugioh no matter how much it’s balanced because it’s not as laid back as they remember

@@FrostReave the problem is, they probably never played goat or yata lock format, I myself know it existed but I was barely in middle school and couldn't afford it and I would bet it was the same for the boomers complaining. I would bet that if they played goat format they'd complain again, saying that it isn't what they remember.

@@vaxel0068 Yeah maybe. Nostalgia does have a way of blinding people

Same. While powercreep can be unpleasant, its made up by the sheer variety of cards and decks that are now playable. For example, playing dinos was impossible for me growing up as the best we had was Dinosaur's Rage. Nowadays, almost every "type" of deck has a decent foundation to work with.

If archetypes weren't a thing, we would all be playing generic good stuff decks like Dragon Link and Cyberse piles. For all the power creep that occurred in this game, we can at least have more deck variety now.

The guy plays crooked cook stall in like silver rank, and think he's "hot stuff" for beating the worst meta deck pilots ever. They did delete all their bad posts but you can probably Wayback Machine to find them or something.

Whenever I hear someone they are a Yugi Boomer and they are very clearly hostile it’s pretty safe to assume they are a stun abuser from what I’ve seen. Also this might be off topic but I did once see a Stun Boomer get redeemed. He was baited into playing exo sister and ended up being a one trick with them. So let’s not be too hostile they may yet be redeemable

His "I have in the past shown how reliant you people are on special summoning" probably means he summoned fossil dyna or something and the opponent couldn't out it

100% played stun and then acted like he understood special summoning and the like while omitting the fact he refused to ever need to understand them because he just locks them out with floodgates and forces everyone to play some braindead 2003 variant of yugioh

@@ArthastasiaThis is why I play floo against people in silver floodgates 😂

>Konami release a game specifically catered for new players and yugiboomers >the game is super successful in Japan and Korea >MFW they don't fucking release the game outside of Japan and Korea like, everything yugiboomers want in yugioh is there. No 50 million card combos, special summoning is relatively rare (why special when can normal 15 times), trap cards are still good, actually legible card text and most importantly IT'S LITERALLY MADE *FOR* PEOPLE LIKE THEM. "B-B-BUT I WANNA PWEY WOOGIWO, GOOGOO GAAGAA" It is fucking yugioh but in a coat of paint designed to make you like it jesus h christ.

Not to mention they can actually play a Blue-Eyes/Dark Magician Deck and it'd actually be good.@@thepronoob4039

⁠​⁠@@thepronoob4039very slight correction, Special Summoning is actually getting more common, but like, not in a “combo heavy” way. For instance, Fusion and Maximum centered decks still need to do some Special Summoning, and their deck system is getting more elaborate, but it’s all still very understandable. More importantly, you can quite literally play anything in the current format. Everything is viable. Dark Magician, Blue Eyes, Red Eyes, Harpies, Dragon Champion Gaia, Cyber Dragons, there’s a Sea Serpent deck that revolves around Maximum summoning, a Reptile deck that has a strategy centered around milling, other decks from the Rush anime, all of these are viable (and even somewhat competitive, although obviously some decks are stronger). I think Summoned Skull is also getting support. It’s truly one of my favorite things about Rush.

​@@memeswithcringe16241; what the fuck is a maximum 2; I have the feeling this is gonna end up like speed duel where they ignore people playing it for simplicity and slowly turn it into a diet version of the base game

@@1stCallipostle A Maximum summon, in simple terms, is a Rush-original mechanic. You use 3 specific monsters (the “Maximum parts”) from your hand, place them on the field at once and combine them as one monster. This one monster is somewhat “separate” from the parts, as it has its own ATK (noted as “Maximum ATK” on the card), its own effects (written as “Maximum effects” on the 3 Maximum parts), and has no concept of DEF (think Link monsters). This might sound convoluted, I promise it’s really not if you look at the actual cards. Maximum oriented decks, for instance, early Cyberse decks, used to be centered around turboing out their boss monster and hoping the opponent has no way to out it, as it had a lot of ATK, typically had an effect that gave it protection, and was high Level, giving it immunity over a lot of cards that target low Level monsters. This later became a really bad strategy as Rush decks became more competent. Now, Maximum-oriented decks can function even if they fail to get their boss monster. Harpies, for example, can even just summon the Maximum parts instead and switch to Wind Winged-Beast beatdown. They’re also getting better at actually summoning their Maximum boss monsters.

Tell me you are a clown without telling me you are a clown,guess what you are the clown

You can say the exact same thing but even worse about the zoomers who worship pak and content creators

As a Yugi-Zillenial, I’m still wondering what’s the animosity amongst the community for preferences of formats. Is there no filter for grown ups in the community and grown ups can’t accept that people prefer different formats? I might be too optimistic.

@@raandomuser710 They respect the opinion of good players like pak which isnt the same as worshipping. There is a reason they respect their opinions that much. Its the fact that they have multiple tops and a deeper understanding about the game which makes them qualified to comment on the competitive aspect of the game. Of course these players will be more out of touch with the casual playerbase

@@yato7030 pak worshipper spotted

That's what really different for "old yugioh and new yugioh" for me. Back then you play with your friends or local casually. No netdeck, no meta, just kids playing cool monsters from anime. As an online game, everything is taken more competitively and it kinda ruins that feeling for many people. In the end, it's just a game and having fun is all that matters.

@@ave4622 Exactly. At the end of the day, playing for fun actually has you ending up having more fun. Who would’ve guessed? It probably helps that my particular groups of friends is fairly close but a Discord call and a simulator and we’re off making the same jank we always have but with more cards, some of which are actually not terrible. The closest thing we have to a “meta” is keeping up to date with the banlist and even then we quite often ignore it because it’s funnier that way.

You are a older player that understands "playground" yugioh never died because it was made up by a group of friends at school etc. If you want to play "old school yugioh" you still can

Yea exactly. IMO, there are really different variants of ygo out there outside of GOAT, Edison, Trinity, HAT, etc. There will always be playground ygo, dorm room ygo, regular ygo, and true ygo. Playground and dorm room are practically the same thing but dorm room at least sort of understands mechanics a little better. Same with regular ygo and true ygo but regular ygo at least puts some leeway for rogue decks and true ygo is what you’d see in the big leagues like YCS’s and WCQ’s.

one of our tiny "locals" was out of current packs for prizing so we just got a 25th anniversary box of LOBE and did like a draft with it, playground stuff lol

Well, both didnt insult each other so both didnt know... And then they kissed

Except that's not what he said. He said special summoning should come at cost, and where a card game no longer had cost the next best check is giving more advantage to your opponent. He's not wrong. Nowhere did he say Maxx C was good, just that it's necessary for a game that is designed to vomit your deck onto the field in combo because that process requires a x too many summons without cost (there is no drawback for you to do so) and therefore the next best thing to cost is more advantage for your opponent (card advantage is the replacement for cost of special summoning, because you shouldn't be allowed to do so without a cost and there is no punishment against you so the obvious next best solution is a benefit to your opponent). This is just self-evidently true. The game has eroded in power creep so that the limited conditions (special summoning, graveyard, banished zone) are now normal and even central areas for resources to trigger and loop. Calling your graveyard "The second hand" means the game has collapsed in on itself and needs to evaluate where it's at mechanically. At this point, I think Yugioh would benefit extremely from standard set rotations and official historical formats that receive support. This would allow Yugioh to pivot in the future and move away from the weight of their own game saturation. Maxx C is both a symptom and a solution to a game that is constantly trying to correct the mistakes it's made but can't undo. Mystic Mine is another example. These cards are not too dissimilar in what they attempt to achieve and why the community is polarized on them. Rather than band-aid the power creep, Konami should reconsider the rules and start over. Vanillas suddenly matter if your legal pool of card is 3-500 and you can't do all the combos you currently can.

@@Reapehify Yeah, see what I mean? Self-evidently, a rant from somebody who's never played in a modern format without Maxx C, and thus think it's necessary because it 'gives summons a cost'. And then goes as far as to claim that that absurd statement is self-evidently true.

@@Gilphonhonestly, anybody who says Maxx c is good for the game inherently brain dead and you should discard all opinions of immediately. No card should say if you play this card you win the game. That’s what Maxx c is. It’s a cancer that warps formats around itself and necessitate equal as cancer solutions like called by the grave. The mere existence of this card invalidates any deck that has to special summon more than 3 times. People who say special summoning should have a cost in the form of Maxx c are stupid. It doesn’t give a cost to special summoning, it just says if you play the game I win.

@@Csthh So, I agree with you more than the other guy, but I think you're also lacking a bit of nuance. It is format warping? Certainly. But whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on the format. It meant the OCG didn't have to worry about Infernoble hand looping, for example. But on the other hand, not having it meant that we didn't have to worry about Spright being tier 0 The only Maxx C take I'd say is definitely wrong is the 'it's necessary' one. Because it directly, provable isn't, and many of us have been playing in the format that proves that for years.

Glad you found your safe haven. It really does suck Konami is pulling a classic Komoney and repeating their mistakes. I wish more Boomers would go where they can be happy

@@FrostReave I don't play rush duel because it's tied to duel links. Even if you only want to play rush duel you still need to play on other 8 or so worlds and horrible speed duel format for events and gems. I'd rather play against kashtira and purrly than to play duel links.

@@duck20484 Yeah same, RIP. I like modern Yugioh overall but I had a real interest in Rush Duel too just not enough to give Konami my soul in exchange

i will be honest, if you have problems with the tcg for special summoning but not rush duels for normal summoning more than floo you need to reconsider lmao literally just changing the name of the mechanic

@@joplin4434 There is a big difference in unlimited tribute summon and special summon and that is you actually need to draw the tribute summonable monster where special summon boss monster from extra deck is always available. Also each floo cards searches each other and has floodgates on legs and plays on opponents turn. Rush duel has little to nothing on opponents turn except trap cards. You should try playing the game a bit first before telling people to reconsider. I can see you have no idea what you are talking about

It actually does matter somewhat. Specifically Meta Sheep who are so obsessive about winning a video game without putting in any effort they try to become a knockoff copy of better players. Which creates very boring and static gameplay But the issue with the netdecking argument is it doesnt differentiate between copy cats and players using it as a base or to learn. Making it basically meaningless

@@FrostReave you're acting like slopdeckers can't be obsessed with winning too. just like you stereotype netdeckers as uncreative sheep, i can stereotype the guy who makes a pile deck that slots in random untested nonsense and floodgates as an equally uncreative sheep who just looks up random blowout cards he heard about hoping to get wins. i can stereotype all of them as gravekeepers users who think they're sticking it to the meta slaves- what do i accomplish? i'm just assuming the intentions of someone who i think is playing the game the wrong way. in my eyes, if three people play the same meta deck, their skill with it and individual choices in what they add to it ends up being what makes each duel different. but if three guys all come in with incoherent decks that lose after i use dd crow once, they all feel the same to me because at a baseline they all rely on being lucky more than being good at yugioh. see how easy it is? i can say anything i want about you and you can say anything you want about me and neither of us get any closer to really bridging the gap

@@kingvelard Unnecessarily long post I can see multiple ways to compress. Anyway I was just criticizing neck deckers because they a slight nuisance to the community. I never defended other groups so I have no idea pile builders were even brought up with such salt. But you seem to be implying anyone who doesn’t net decks is bad or a bad builder which is simply a dumb notion.

Honestly it’s completely rational to dislike Floo and Tears. Floo is brain dead floodgate turbo and Tears is so obnoxious

Holy i was about to defend the boomer cause i feel the pain of not having a handtrap or playing against a " handtrap doesnt matter " board that completely destroys you, but that s an insanely good point i forgot about. I feel like there should be a massive notice in master duel and like.... Everywhere that there are alternatives and if u dont like big ass combo playstyle/meta/yugioh right now - go play old slower formats.

holy shit you really hit em with the "L + Friendless"

A bit harsh but completely correct they should go to a format they like instead of causing problems everywhere else. Everyone has different wants and needs but its unfair to try and force unreasonable demands on a community just because you dont like it

I understand the point you are making with this, but I think I also overall disagree. While what you are saying is entirely true from a competitive standpoint, a lot of the Yugiboomers didn't play competitive, they played lunch table. They had rubber band decks with filler cards that they could buy with change they scrounged up until they could make their own money, or until they decided to full invest into the game. I don't even think OP was discussing the game in a full competitive sense, since he was insisting on both the newcomers as well as the oldies wanting to get back into things. Yes, the competitive scene does matter, but a lot of people played this game because they liked certain monster types of card arts. I knew a guy whose entire deck revolved around his single copy of "Frostosaurus," and a middle schooler who ran venom swamp while owning zero "Venom" monsters. This random pack filler nonsense was a very big part of the YGO culture, and I do not think that a person should be shamed for thinking that the game has become so precise and hyper-optimized that is makes that style of play seemingly obsolete, even in the novice brackets. Even with the Smash Bro's analogy you made, you gave an example of a casual player coming back to a competitive culture that has basically ruled out casual play. It should not be the fault of the newcomer/returner that both the game and community left them behind after years of change. All this means is that the scene has changed, but it does not deny that plenty of people played this party mode and look back fondly on it. Frankly, I think this still comes back to YGO having the least effective onboarding experience you could come up with for a game, if you can call it onboarding at all. You could probably convince boomers and newbies to get into things if you could ease them into it, but there just isn't a rational way to do that without it taking literal hours of hyperspecific plays and explanations.

@@GambeTama I don’t deny some of this, but from my viewpoint this game cannot be played “casually”. While yes my smash bros analogy did have some issues, this was because in smash bros you can choose to play casual. Go ahead, play with items and stages on. Just don’t expect to understand the game in any real sense nor handle it when you play against someone with a hint of skill. Yugioh doesn’t have a “casual” mode. Even potential solutions like rotation or going back to the days of T-set pass will not alleviate it. You will still be a part of a community and game that is about the W and how to achieve it. What’s the most optimal way to play and best way to build are still aspects of the game even in a bad deck. Hell even playing rubber band decks, people will still look at their bulk and say “maybe this 2 tribute vanilla is better to play over this ritual spell I don’t have the monster for.” And frankly I don’t know what would need to be changed to make onboarding easier and more accessible. Those that want to go back to the way the game “used to be played” want to go back to a fantasy. To a game they didn’t understand at the time nor had the exposure to truly experience. It’s somewhat revealing how those that complain the game “isn’t how it used to be” are people who didn’t play it seriously in the first place. Farfa even mentions how he used to play a masked beast ritual deck and talks about “tearing up the playground” while his friends were on rouge doll. The game seems more fun when the way you play it is to loosely copy what you saw off the anime/manga while not understanding anything deeper than the surface level “I summon masked beast and attack with DEMONIC FLAME!!”. What people were doing back then seems no different than playing pretend. How many of those that played back in the day would have continued to play if they were exposed to high level play? When they have to play against people on every broken card legal at the time?

@@Freebird1994 "Those that want to go back to the way the game “used to be played” want to go back to a fantasy. To a game they didn’t understand at the time nor had the exposure to truly experience. It’s somewhat revealing how those that complain the game “isn’t how it used to be” are people who didn’t play it seriously in the first place." "The game seems more fun when the way you play it is to loosely copy what you saw off the anime/manga while not understanding anything deeper than the surface level 'I summon masked beast and attack with DEMONIC FLAME!!'. What people were doing back then seems no different than playing pretend. How many of those that played back in the day would have continued to play if they were exposed to high level play? When they have to play against people on every broken card legal at the time?" I mean no offense, but I do find this mode of thought a bit condescending, or at least a bit dishonest, in that it continuously portrays people as being wrong for "not experiencing the game 'correctly'." There were rules when these people played. Many of them were simply playing with jank and had to work around it. Farfa had a ritual spell, a ritual monster, and a sonic bird to tie it together as best he could. Someone else had E-Hero beatdown with The A. Forces, and another had CoH Jinzo turbo. The point to all of this is that at the end of the day the games all catered to a certain experience that the current state of play cannot properly reproduce. Moving more to the main point, the thing that always gets brought up when someone is introduced to "modern YGO," be they newbie or returner, is that the games do not feel like actual games. People who remember the old days remember N.Summon, set 2 and pass, then having to hope that their back row buys them the time they need to get a better board state going soon. Even in the synchro era, that kind of interactivity was possible with a number of Rogue decks. The problem is that, to an outsider trying to get in, that basic and simple flow of play just doesn't really exist on any level outside of custom formats. Whenever time this conversation comes up, it tends to sound the same: - 8 minute turns of watching the op combo off practically their entire deck - Non turn player has an Ash, Imperm, or scoops - Decks have these 16 step formulae on how they are played to get the exact perfect unbreakable board, if the opponent doesn't surrender mid combo - Decks you think look cool are actually unplayable because they were released a couple of sets ago, meaning generations of answers came out, as well as answers to the answers - Bonus points to the Link era, for crippling virtually every other summon mechanic for close to three years, just to sell their hip new pointer cards. - The whole extra series of conversations that occur if the game is being compared directly to a competitor (MTG, Hearthstone, LoR, VG, Pokemon, ect.) The big issue here is that Konami, and to a lesser extent the YGO community, want to have their cake and eat it too. They want (if not need) more players to get into the game, but have little interest in the issue that the game hard filters people who aren't willing or able to full commit to playing on the rather high level it demands. YGO might very well be the only game I know of where the skill floor is higher than the ceiling, and little is provided to deal with that. The short answer is that the game needs a massive rules change that fundamentally alters how the it is played. YGO has never cared for mechanical balance, seemingly mutating over time rather than evolving, and it is in dire need of some form of consistency - as well as an adjustment of its card design philosophy. But I do not think Konami will ever do this, so the game will saunter along as is, for good or for ill. We can all collectively discuss this until we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, Farfa put it well in this video: "If several people are all making the same complaints, then you have to at least recognize that there is a problem." To be honest, this whole thing is just kind of making me sad now. I can see my decks on the shelf right next to me. Each one made during a different era, and updated to the best of my abilities - well over a decade of playing cards throughout my life, and I find myself slowly losing the passion to use them anymore. I could just "go play another format" but it has this hollow feeling to it, this demeaning admission of defeat that I just don't have it in me to play with my friends at the current level anymore, and I know they won't ever want to slow it down, leaving me as just a spectator. But in the end, I guess I should try to close things out on a good note. Even if I wind up bowing out and leaving, I do hope that you find much more satisfaction than I did, and I wish you the best of duels in the future.

@@GambeTama The issue is that this isn't something that master duel is fundamentally capable of providing by nature of existing as a digital card game. Every single digital card game has meta slaves and you can't force everyone who ever played the game to play at a casual level. This problem exists across every online card game that exists: Hearthstone, Magic Arena, Marvel Snap, Legends of Runeterra, all have meta chasers. This isn't remotely unique to Yugioh. There will always be people playing to win, and if you aren't there isn't any way to force them to play at your level. The only way to ensure that you play at a casual level is to play against people who aren't playing to win, and a lower power level won't make getting blown out better. I really doubt most of the people complaining about modern yugioh would prefer to get blown out by BLS, Cyber Dragon, or Gorz. Balancing the game around a casual experience is a fool's errand, because they will always find something to be mad at. The closest a game has gotten is maybe Magic's Commander format, which is probably only kept in check by being mostly played in individual playgroups, who can gentleman's agreement out of playing broken decks. Even with this, power level and play experience complaints are commonplace. Imagine how it would work in a digital card game, where there will always be at least some players looking to play the most broken decks possible.

Part of the thing with "the yugioh you played didn't exist" is that people are comparing how they casually played in like 2004 to how the game is played competitively a whole 20 years later and then saying the game is bad when those two are not even remotely comparable, especially when old ygo had its fair share of homogenous and or toxic cards that made for low interactive games like now just in another manner, you can still play yugioh casually like in 04 by making random decks with just the dumb stuff you find fun also, i do the same with a friend where we play the digimon tcg all the time and its just we using dumb decks we made. If you went back and saw how competitive ygo was you'd see the same thing with absurd no cost cards that could break entire boards like raigeki or harpies, cards like imperial order which negated 2/3rds of the game or even OTKs thanks to BLS envoy of the beginning or absurd powercreep from cards like cyber dragon which made tons of monsters completely irrelevant, or cards like cyber stein/metamorphisis which cheated out the fusion monsters because fusion summoning them is a stupid task in those older metagames.

Me too, I wish they would stop hounding the community for everything they think is wrong with the game. We clearly don’t give a fuck, and don’t really have the power to do shit either. One time some bozo magic Yugiboomer suggested that we boycott the game. I was insanely pissed that day, like why the fuck should we care if Yugioh isn’t the game you remembered. We have no obligation to do shit about it. The bozo shut up after I referenced why the magic community didn’t boycott after the announcement of the reserve list. I wish they would stop hounding us, and just write their complains to Konami.

Oh come on...what's the alternative then? "The game sucks ass, but I won't tell anybody, so it can never be improved on?"

This is the most clear and logical explanation on the issue that remains polite. Im using that in the future. I will say what they should be doing instead of tying themselves to something they dislike is going to Rush Duel or GOAT format.

This logic is so braindead it hurts. "We can't do anything about it so why complain" people aren't complaining to YOU specifically and they aren't doing it so YOU specfically go and fix it. Its putting it out there and spreading it in hopes that Konami does something about it. For all the tards in this comment section saying "Yugi boomers need friends" "Yugi boomers can go play other formats 4head" part of the reason its important for said Yugiboomers to complain is so that Konami enables such play in Master Duel (As its currently the most popular way to play Yugioh afaik) "oh but it has a casual mode" where Meta decks still fill the gamemode AND you aren't rewarded for playing. The biggest issue with Yugioh that i see, is that the majority, forget that America isn't the only country to exist. Not everyone has a gameshop or "locals" they can attend in 5 minutes from their home. For the most part Master Duel is used by a large majority of casuals, returning players and "Yugiboomers". However Master duel doesn't support these players at all, you can have a private match sure, but you can't even have the name be the format you want to play, you can't do a private match where you have access to all cards so you can make a deck for each year and play it, you can't choose to go into a "Ranked 2004 Format" section and play like its 04 again, you can't then go from that into "Ranked 2012" you have ranked, which consists of the same 4-6 meta decks or self burn / disconnects. The game needs to accomdate the different formats and time periods people want to play in. In doing that, most sane Yugiboomers will have nothing fully justifiable to complain about, as they CAN just go play ranked "Chaos" format or "Ranked Unlimited format" or jump into a private match with everything unlocked so they can experiment with different decks without needing to drop a million dollars on card packs in hopes they can build the deck that they may or may not even like to use. As things stand now though, you can't do that, which is why you have so many left complaining hoping that with enough of it, something will change. Things don't change if you say nothing. Things might change if you do say something, no matter how unlikely it is.

@Chaotic_H3LL I want to remind you that I made this comment on a video about a post made to the master duel subreddit which is not Konami owned and is entirely driven by people in the yugioh community, yes Konami should be more accommodating to older returning players as they still make up a large amount of the potential new player base but as you've said in your first paragraph, it's Konami that needs to do this, if they want to complain, the best places to reach the people that can actually do stuff about this is the Konami twitter or the MD surveys, however doubtful it is that they actually do anything, my point wasn't "we can't do anything so why complain" it was "we can't do anything so complaining to us doesn't do anything"

Its a matter of opinion. Its not objective. People should just go to the format that suits them. You dont see me going to GOAT format and trashing it that would be stupid why do they do the same to modern formats

@FrostReave because time and change goes in one direction, and legacy formats are not the ones that changed from a preceding format. You'd probably hear a lot less issue with modern if there were actual official alternatives formats the same way MTG has alternatives.

@@Reapehify Yeah there should be more official formats for old players. That’s completely separate from you forcing your problems on others. You don’t have to like what the game has become and never will do why do you continue wasting your time and making everyone else miserable out of spite.

@FrostReave you seem really bothered by my analysis to the point that you're painting me as problematic for pointing out real problems with the game. Objective problems that have implications whether you like or dislike how the game is. The only one positing negatively is you. I spoke about the game state and mechanics, because that's what the game is. I could have made a different argument that the current player base has ADHD and should spend 6-months playing chess to get an appreciation for "simple" game play and realize simple doesn't mean boring. But I didn't; you, on the other hand, seem perfectly content ignoring arguments made, invalidating people, and assuming negative intents. Of course it's fucking obvious that people critiquing the game now don't want it to be what it is, that's like saying you have a bug-breaking glitch in a game and just being totally fine with it; or not doing anything about getting sick. And I understand that you're probably not educated on the language let alone care, but the analogy to sickness is based specifically around the idea of detrimental gameplay outcomes arising from pathological issues. That's not to say that you can't find it fun, but it has a negative effect on the game as a whole. It has stalled a new generation of players for modern, it has made a large portion of the game redundant and obsolete, and it creates homogenous and problematic play patterns. And none of these are even my own personal issues, of which I have many gripes. The reason people like Farfa, Team Samurai, Dzeff, etc cover this, the reason returning and new players complain almost in the same way, and the subsequent exploration of Time Wizard formats all demonstrate THESE ARE REAL ISSUES. Ignore them. Stick your in the sand. Be in denial. The issues still persist, even if you don't care, and they're gonna generate conversion and content just like this (and stagnate your player base, too).

@@Reapehify You never posted any analysis in this thread but I looked at a couple of yours but they are just your personal gripes they are not objective whatsoever. You think just because a group of people are unhappy the game they liked has change in 25 years somehow makes it objective you are sorely mistaken. Why are you acting like Yugi Boomers are somehow more valid and important then everyone else, that their opinion takes priority? No one want to deal with you when you just spam the same posts over and over again in unnecessarily large proportions I might add, yet ignore or not understand the underlying points in responses you just brush it off. It’s clear that you don’t care what anyone else thinks and are fine wasting your life. I however am quite sick of you and your obnoxious attitude so I’m just gonna block you

Absolutely true. Theres so many fair handtraps we dont need the roach because Maxx C doesnt balance the game it just makes it more random and frustrating

@@FrostReave worst maxx c apologist say it needed to balance the game.. like wtf, maxx c is the least skilled card in game.. 0 skill expression, just shotgun in standby and 99% you got the value out of it while you also cant play around it unless you have immediate answer to it. i could also argue that similar "lingering" handtrap is bad design (maxx c, droll, shifter) but maxx c is biggest offender since it literally doesnt restrict you whatsoever while also usually always result at least card neutral / pluses

@@justsightseeing1 Honestly Droll and Shifter are a problem because they arent just handtraps they are floodgate handtraps. And floodgates are just inherently a problem I would argue. Anyway I dont disagree with anyof this

You can argue Maxx C is unfun, and I might agree to some extent. It randomly snipes you for playing first and you just get fucked. However, that's the closest thing we have to balancing against going first, so in a best of one especially, it is a strictly necessary evil.

@@1stCallipostle you talk like people dont draw maxx c going first..

That profile pic kinda sus

This is completely incoherent. Needs to be rewritten if you want to avoid giving people seizures

@@FrostReave if you can't understand what's been said, then that's on you.

@@jackferdinger4180 Sure pal because you are such an expert. Its very clear you are a waste of time so enjoy zero likes

I dont think either of their points are objective. They are subjective opinions. The mistake they made was believing they are absolutely 100% correct and fighting over it. Both arguments have some truth they both have some flaws

Yeah you can pretty easily read most tiered decks since they are basically played solely by copycats who’s only game plan is follow what a guide told them to do. The only issue is Maxx C being an extremely annoying variable

But they gave it some insane support in BTP and Elect

The what group?

@@FrostReave the yugioh drama center group. It's basically what the name says, a place for posting people being dramatic.

@@shinigamikira9469 Must be a pretty big group Yugioh players are extremely divisive

What worse is that these people just paint a bad light on whenever someone address actual problems of the game. Now you have to read through their post constantly wonder if this person is just another scrub or are they genuinely giving a constructive criticism

It is insane how often you can find a middle aged man have a mental breakdown and go on about how back in his day, throws were banned at the arcade

Criticism is valid even if changes can't be implemented, a fact doesn't become less true if you can't do anything about it. I agree that if you don't like a game don't play it but at the end of the day yugioh isn't gaining new players and is losing old ones everyday, if Konami wants to keep thus cash cow for another 25 years they'd be wise to heed the communities cry

The game design has changed quite a lot in 25 years. The only ones who did that was Konami and they can just as well do it again. Just because you like how it is, doesn't mean everyone does and Konami is aware of feedback from players. Maybe you think it's illegitimate, but maybe it isnt.

Its more of an issue of taking their opinions like they are objective facts that should be forced upon the game. Just because you dont like something doesnt make it bad or that it needs to be changed necessarily unless its an objective problem

People have been asking for this for a long time the issue is they always half ass it. Casual was added but it doesnt give any rewards and alot of people go in with overperforming decks defeating the point. I think a good start is an actual solo mode like in Legacy of the Duelist with scaling difficulty

Judging from the wording they dont understand the difference between sheep and learning players who netdeck.

That just seems like taking an unnecessary amount of time to figure things out that you could probably intuit. Like you can generally understand whether or not you should be playing something at 3 just by reading it.

@@1stCallipostle on some decks might be the situation but not on all. For example something like centurion one that just came out would be working okay with 3 of each, if its something like blackwings you can intuit which ones you want at 3.

one side is just True Draco and the other side of Vaylantz

@@jakethereaper2060 pretty much yeah lol

It's crazy that people are calling for a yugioh reboot when Speed Duel, Duel Links and Rush Duel ARE RIGHT FUCKING THERE

@@thepronoob4039 how to play competetive Rush Duel? i can't just move to Japan

@@ccc2839 play online. All major unofficial simulators have Rush Duel modes. But yeah, if you wanna do IRL I'm afraid you're fucked. Blame Konami

I feel its very important to distinguish between calm Yugi Boomers and Extreme Yugi Boomers. I dont want to try and roll them into one negative group

​@@ccc2839Duel links got rush duel

Well I agree up to the last sentence. Because most Yugi boomers instead going to the format they liked they stick with modern format just to abuse stun. Which is objectively problematic

@@FrostReave i don't disagree, but people who aren't yugi boomers also play those decks(I had a former friend who constantly played decks like this and he was not a yugi boomer). I don't think the problem is the people and rather the fact the cards that allow this are legal, banning cards that allow floodgate stun decks should happen in the main banlist. And then if those people want to play those decks they can have their own format with floodgates legal.

And to be clear theres nothing wrong with that. I just dont like it when they act surprised to this and act like it was the games problem instead of their own

how do you start yugioh in 2008 and you and your friend group is Tribute summoning Summoning Skull? I don't get it. In my area there's a shop for nerd stuff and the guy buys and sells yugioh cards, so there are boxes full of commons. Most people pick out stuff from 2003 and want them. Oh Curse of Dragons, it's perfect for my deck. LIKE HOW??! How are people still stuck in 2003.. I don't understand.

@@rickerturgen8526 we didn’t have the money to afford new cards so the cards we played with were all borrowed from our siblings/cousins who quit before GX.

@@DJStriker106 I see! that makes a lot of sense.

Nah there’s lots of insane rogue decks that absolutely are terrifying but no one bothers to put in the effort to research them because the game is infested with Sheep. For example Blackwing, Exosister, Fluffal, and Rikka are all decks that won a regional/national/worlds despite being rogue.

zoomer I think idk 🎉

"I love setting 1 and pass that's so interesting and skill based" -Yugi Boomer Listen you dont have to like Modern Yugioh you are entitled to that. But stop making it everyone else's problem. The game has changed and its never gonna regress again. Just quit, got to GOAT format, or to speed duels. This is unproductive. You are refusing to adapt and wonder why its not working

@@FrostReave you make it sound like Konami will never change it again, which is ridiculous. The design ebbs and flows every 6-7 years on average. Zoomer today, Boomer tomorrow I promise you.

L@@spicymemes7458

@@spicymemes7458 The largest rule change Konami ever did in 25 years was making it so extra deck monster could only be summoned to where a link arrow pointed at. And guess what they removed those rules because they warped the game too much. And thats nothing compared to limiting special summons So your promises are pretty worthless to me.

@@FrostReaveThey can still do set 1 and pass with floo. 💀 If you don't like reading justvplay TCG Floo, walking floodgate super easy gameplan.