Yuumi vs Io: A look at the Symbiote Support role design from both League of Legends, and Dota 2. 

Io core is a nightmare.

Last worlds it was viable, it was just so broken as supp u never saw her open

Yup2 but the truth is they dont Nerf enough Yumi and IO was nerf a lot

Probably true since cat removes your ability to play the game.

I always despised Yuumi all the years i played league but Io is my most played hero in Dota also highest winrate, its all about positioning, damage calculations and timings, Yuumi just presses buttons on cooldown with no risk, comparing them is almost insulting to how far harder Io is to play haha

@@minutosdesapercibidosesp-e4508 For that reason I think I just HAD to compare them. This comparison is actually the origin for the idea behind my Role Comparison series. It was the fourth video I made, but the first I thought up.

​@@moon5636unfortunately there was a good reason to nerf IO during his heyday. He was an almost guaranteed win condition in the 1st and 2nd TI he's played on. Someone that can easily defend base while split pushing during the time where teleport scrolls are more expensive and take an item slot.

Fucking 48 game win streak what the hell

@@TZAR_POTATO 48 win streak in tournament game

Ana the god carry 1

it all stems from yuumi invincibility, a truly toxic, deprived mechanic i how she uses it

@@TZAR_POTATO so true. When I first time joined LoL I was astonished by how bonkers the idea of basically permanently untargetable support was. Then I learned that it doesn't matter that much and Yuumi is not even that good of a support, just annoying to play against

Yuumi got a gameplay update around Febuary/March 23 because the first version was so braindead you could win games with SINGLE DIGIT APM. And was so safe she was pick-or-ban for so long.

I love how that's even ALLOWED in dota, and would be top of the line hated in league!

​@@TZAR_POTATOJust like the geneva convention, roles are simply a suggestion

Some league player trying Dota with his veteran Dota player: can i be the carry. Everybody said support is so hard in Dota😅 VD2P: yeah sure i'll become support for early 10 to 20 minute😀 League player: what do you meant by that supp for just 10 to 20 minute?🤔 VD2P: just see😃 The game reach 20 minute Mark and his support friend start buy rapier aghanim and carry the game. League player: 😮

what are we? i$r@hell?@@fitzviandraduivenab2790

Hah ! I love dota. When in league, when you play an agressive support, that is made to roam, if you have the lack of luck to go with an Adc/apc that want you to babysit him/her/them they fucking cry and kamikaze themself in the tower ennemy, saying it's all your fault. When those things happen in Dota, last time i saw that, i saw a Dazzle saying "fine, i'l do it myself" and started to Dazzle all over the place.

Lol

Thanks a lot!

Support is usually the very beginning role for people start play dota. But it is hard because it requires you utilize limited resources to get the biggest impact. And the impact here is not about damage but about strategy, map control, initializing clash/fight. I once explain the support things need to be done to my league player friend and he said that insane mechanic

@@xeko.dota2594 I disagree that support is a good beginner role, and actually think core is way more useful for beginners. That being said, I leave it to the player to choose what they want to learn.

tried league and got flamed for ganking other lanes as a support. sad

@@st1n me too... me too.

are we playing the same games lil bro? xd in dota, no one likes pos 4 or 5 thats why you see ppl pick core heroes in low elos in league, support has been for the last 4 years not the least popular role, with so much gold income and very different playstyles and champs, its much more fun and has actual agency over the game in dota 2, you are starved for resources, spending all your money on sentries, dust, givin your tangos and clarity to your cores nah, supp in league is MUCH MUCH more popular than pos 4 and 5 in dota

It also has Windrunner as a teammate so GL with that😂

BAHAHAA

If u want my unsolicited advice, I think the vid quality its self is really good. However the video thumbnail and video title made me think it was going to instead be a side by side ability comparison video, (which it was in some sense), but ended up being much more indepth with a deeper commentary on the mechanics of the game. So maybe cleaning up or trying to make the thumbnail and title more professional? Idk. Whatever u do, do not sacrifice the video quality this is so good

@@nategalit5407 thank you for the kind words! I've tried a couple different thumbnail designs so far, though I like this one most since it IS a side by side, with design of the role as a major topic. If you share some visuals to what you think would be better i can take a look. I'm no pro though, so expecting pro levels is a bit out of my skil so far, maybe later i will learn as I get experience. Share and like, it goes a long ways!

@@TZAR_POTATO will definitely like and share, yeah after I left that comment I immediately felt a little bad cuz I felt like I was just kind leaving criticism without offering any suggestions lol. I think u definitely are growing fast even as I'm skimming thru videos that were released only six months ago (I'm planning to watch them lol) As for thumbnails, I would just scroll thru league RU-vidrs u enjoy and just look and thumbnails YOU like and figure out why you like them. Knowing why you like something helps you understand why you like the other things you like which helps your own creative process. Sometimes even trying to recreate thumbnails just for fun can help you learn different thumbnail making techniques. I edit (very amateurly) and do photography for fun and this was something I learned from my friend which helped tremendously. I hope this doesn't sound too preachy or anything lol cuz I do geniunely enjoy your content, the thumbnails and titles aren't "bad" at all!!

@@TZAR_POTATO also, ig what I meant by side by side was just like one of those no speaking, royalty free music, very very lazily produced videos where it's just like "yuumi q. Blab blah blah. Io q. Blah blah blah." I WAS VERY PLEASANTLY SURPRISED AND I FEEL BAD THAT I EVER HAD THAT ASSUMPTION. The fact I had that assumption is more a reflection on the state of league content than a reflection on your content if that makes sense

@@nategalit5407 d'Awwww !!

I'm just reflecting off of what I see pros doing. I've watched a LOT of league pro games to know that a league support might roam for seconds out of the laning stage, but will always go back to hover their carry.

Sounds fun! Feel free to use clips from my vid if you want to, but if you do, don't go too far and put me in the description :)

many thanks! Though, i kind of like the editing of the previous episode more ;)

I read you comment and din't get it the first time, i was thinking "like, a sun ?" But you where talking about the pos 1.

I'm not a woke like you are, but IO is definetly not they/them. IO is an "it". Simple as the character itself.

yup

ooo, forgot about him, haven't played tf2 in ages!

Oh? But my point is that most of the time the support is with the adc, not the jungler. maybe in a team fight, sure. But, it's not that the support just fucks off from the lane and never returns, like some supports might do in dota

​@@TZAR_POTATOit is exactly that way.

Level 25 Io, in my games Heh, never gonna happen.

reminds me of helm dominator io

Lvl 25 IO is almost lore accurate, just give him atk items and the aspd comes from his tethered hero. Symbiote level: Venom and Eddie Brock.

Will do!

I think they can keep her immobile, but she should be able to be hit with any AOE. That would be decent balance I think.

The point is, Yuumi just can't itemize in any which way, and must stick to a support build 99% of the time.

​@@TZAR_POTATOHer Q at that point did ridiculous %Health damage once empowered so you could build her full AP and easily have the highest damage output in the game, while being untargettable for all of it

Do yuumi players roam from level 3 onward? What level do they usually start to roam at?

​@@TZAR_POTATO ​ around the 8 minute mark you compare Dota2's support role in a general sense to LoL's supports and say they don't have much to do in the laning phase other than the occasional placing of wards. You're more or less right about that. Especially in strong competetive games roaming supports can get punished effectively, but in high elo soloqueue they are seen more frequently. 3vs1's in midlane happen fairly often, but surely not with Yuumi's as long as her ADC isn't fed / outclassing the enemy botlane.

@@Faude18 What I meant in the statement is that quite often the supports in dota might leave lane by level 2 or 3 if the lane is going ok, for ganks, for jungle manipulation, to help secure runes, and more. Sometimes they come back, and sometimes they rarely leave before level 5. But I'd argue it's a lot calmer in League.

@@TZAR_POTATO i didn't try to argue against that. I wanted to give LoL's supports a little more credit :), but i think you are absolutely right about Dota2's supports having more jobs to do. Especially the competetive LoL meta is heavily focused around ADC's and enchanter supports at the moment, which results in supporters that are almost glued to their ADC's. There's the occasional help at securing scuttle crab and the regular help at securing dragon, but the ADC is helping with the latter as well in most cases. Great content by the way and thank you for replying. I enjoy learning more about the differences of both games. Especially the tutorial video is incredible and it's disappointing that Riot doesn't try to copy some of Dota2's tutorial implementations.

@@Faude18 Of course! I didn't mean anything by it. Yes, all roles in both games are impactful. League's enchanter meta is really stale though :(

Definitely feels good when your lane baby is fat... I remember a game when I (Treant) and my lane partner (Faceless Void) was able to pull a whole team into our lane to stop our push... XD we really bullied their bottom lane so hard... XD

That sounds troll.

It got removed a long time so it might be a bug if u can pull it off now.

There's only a handful of supports in league that can scale enough damage to kill, and plenty of tanks. Most supports in league are like dazzle/oracle though, just buff and heal and shield and that's it.

​@@TZAR_POTATO Honest question and not meant to be mean, but did u ever really play LoL for a longer time? Because a lot of stuff u write or say in your videos really seem like stuff you just read up instead of playing it for a longer time. There are a lot of mages that get played as damage supports and if fed can carry a game. (you dont even need to be fed to blast the enemy adc early game with like Annie, Xerath, Vel, and so on... just hit lvl6 and bye enemy adc) I mean even Nautilus or Leona which are fulltanks will fuck you up if you are overextending and dont have an enchanter on your side that keeps u alive. Just play a matchup like ADC1+Leona vs ADC2+Nautilus, if both supports focus the enemy adc on an all in a lot of ADCs are fucked in that situation early game. And your point in the video that supports have less things to do: A lot of supports tend to roam more and more which can carry games alone by that. (obviously they have to know they timings for it) I am not saying that Dota2 supports do less, they do more because Dota2 has more things to do, like blocking minions, stacking/blocking junglecamps and so on which arent existing in LoL . Most of the time ADCs need to get carried early game by their support and not viceversa. I have to say that I watched some LoL and Dota2 comparision videos of u now and u gave misinformations here and there, some ppl maybe think that I am nitpicking but I simply take the fact into account that a lot of Dota2 players that watch your videos know nothing about LoL, well and viceversa obviously. And spreading misinformation is kinda meh.

Yes there are. I have a lot of kills on my support engage. But for pure healer, nah they don't do damage. Only buffing team and debuffing the enemy team.

​@@TZAR_POTATO I think there are still more support champion that you need to be considered as Pyke, Senna, Lux, Morgana, Karma, Malphite, Velkoz, Brand, and heck even Annie. Those are champion just to bully your laning opponent so your ADC kan farm safely

​​​​@@rayznshinemost of those champions are also cores, seeking refuge in the support role, either because their design brute forced them there(pyke, Senna) or the existence of Zed(basically every mage "support")

I'm a fan. One day I want to use Bulgarian music but it's way too hype and I can't fit it in with voice

100%

oh, god. radiance ls + pudge, when infest gave ms bonus and immunity, remember?

huh? I mean... thanks!

So I've heard.

Being able to cast spells while inside a hero is really cool tbh, I hope icefrog updates Lifestealer ult aghs upgrade like that.

​@@jayzenstyleHe is already powerful as he is now... XD you want him to be more broken???

Riot will never rework Yuumi to be like Io, since they hate Dota. Haha😅

@@seafatt Aphro from smite then

Dota had the balls for 20 years...

If you took Yumi's abilities and cross-referenced them into dota, even buffing her numbers to be in line with dota's numbers, she would be the worst hero in the cast by an extremely large margin.

For those that want to micro even your allies, to those that don't even want to micro themselves.

"""Ward the map Invade mid/jg help their carry as much as possible to get golds / help other teammates""" Is this... the entire list? Only 3 tasks? Supports in dota need to: Ward the map Invade mid/jg help their carry as much as possible to get golds / help other teammates stack camps pull lane contest wisdom rune secure bounty runes secure healing lotus capture watchers coordinate smoke ganks initiate tormentors contest power rune farm dangerous lanes break enemy smoke ganks up block jungle spawns ...I was thinking of more but actually that's about it. It might be that dota's supports have too MUCH to do, but it's the hardest role in the game by a huge margin. The only reason that supports don't get to farm that much in dota, is because they have too many other responsibilities to do.

I think they don't leave you alone because you never leave THEM alone. But no, instead you spend all your time attached to them like a parasite. Go play yuumi to your heart's content but don't harass your lane partner.

Eh, i like background music. If there were more comments on it, I would for sure change my mind on it, but hey, you're the first meaning there might be more to follow!

Having no bgm would mean lots of dead moments which would be very awkward for a video

I don't like music but thanks for the content

@@tomtoma3752 You are welcome! Please excuse me, and hope you enjoy the videos despite not liking music.

But he's not even complex. It would be someone like Oracle, Earth Spirit, or Earth Shaker. Invoker is more about memory or APM, than about complexity.

@@TZAR_POTATO invo is like aphelios Too much info and mechanics for the first time playing champ, but you'll do your combos automatically later the more games you play

@@nordvirus6671 except invoker has 10 spells at a time, while aphelios only has 2

@@nordvirus6671 Totally agree. Aphelios USED to be imagined as a spellcaster btw, but was too complicated so they made him into a mostly auto attacker with buffs. He IS inspired by invoker... if invoker was nerfed into an ADC

@@TZAR_POTATO literally exort invoker adc with sass btw RU-vid just notified me about your response lmao 2 months late

I am bad at league, but this is based on watching pro games. It's extremely common to see the support hovering the ADC nearly the entire match.

@@TZAR_POTATO hovering the adc is very common, up until the first reset. after that (unless the adc is very weak early, like vayne or jinx) i'd say it's a 50/50 split between obtaining vision control and ganking. maybe you could talk to a high elo league player for some of your videos to get a more nuanced contrast? these are interesting videos, but it does feel like analysis of the league part is slightly lacking.

But, I do talk to high elo players, even challenger streamers at times. If you watch pro games, you must agree that there's a LOT of hovering going on. The support MIGHT go to the jungle if the jungler heeds it, or mid for a single gank all game, but then will retreat and go hover again. Especially with supports like lulu, nami, yuumi, and renata glask @@kmb1800

​@@kmb1800No matter what you say in roaming/ganking part of supports in LOL, the point is, it's nowhere close to what Dota support has to accomplish. It is very overwhelming in how many things you need to do besides laning.

I based my info in the video on professional plays from recently played tournaments at the time of the video's release. You're just saying that the pros don't know how to play? Really... Even now, during worlds, not much has changed. All I will see supports do is roam mid, then roam bot...then mid Maaaaybe a second time, and finally stick with another hero (most often the adc) as they go from lane to lane or to neutral creeps together). Rarely is the support invading the jungle, or even farming the jungle. Rarely if ever is the support farming a lane solo. There's just no objectives for the support to do! No runes, no stacking, no pulling, no healing lotuses, bounties, smokes of deceit... the closest they have to an extra objective is placing wards and killing enemy wards. Supports in League have, comparatively speaking, nothing to do for 90% of the game, that isn't hovering someone else while trading blows.

@@TZAR_POTATO i guess that just comes down to the structure of the game. Plenty to do just not solo content which Is what you’re looking for ig.

@@colonelchan8459 support in dota have remember all time stamp for pulling lane, stacking big camp at xx:54 (or 52), power rune either top or down river at 6:00 10:00 15:00 20:00 so on, cut the tree, first exp rune at 7:00, refill bottle's mid, watch enemies hero movement (and his/her item), smoke gank, smoke break, warding/dewarding, tormentor 20:00, roshan, dust, solo laning if carry goes juggle. So many to do in laning phase (end at 12:00 - 15:00).

cat < literal god.

Faker can't use cancer cat as carry to win Worlds, your argument has been countered.