Zelda’s MOST Controversial Character 

Thank you so much!!!

Interesting points! I'm a little perplexed though. Counter to Counter: Song of Healing: It never says that the Song of Healing will heal your soul forever of that the song of healing will work on everything! And surely, souls change overtime. So even though the song worked at one point there is no guarantee it will work later. It's possible that Hero of Time's regret was a different kind of pain than being a deku scrub. The song of healing does not work on everything. You are leaning on too much speculation when you assume the Song of Healing would heal everything. Magic Spin Attack: In Majoras Mask, Link gets the magic meter by helping the Great Fairy in Clock Town. He couldn't "train" himself to learn it again. The Hero's Shade also didn't need to teach the Hero of Twilight the "quick spin" since The Hero of Twilight already knew how to do it. Not sure about the "shield poking move" though. Maybe it's not worth teaching cause it makes you stationary? (It also has limited usage in OoT) The Hero of Time Being Remembered: I'm... not sure why you countered that point? I was agreeing with you. You tried proving that Hyrule Historia is wrong because it claims "Link felt regret about not being remembered." I was agreeing with you by showing that Renado's comment (if it's about Ocarina of Time Link) would prove that The Hero of Time is still remembered. @@ratedn

@@TheBreadPirate I want to point another thing out about the Song of Healing: it's never actually used to help the individual that plays it and you HAVE to have a magical instrument to actually achieve the effect. On my first point, when Link uses the song to get himself out of the deku scrub point, he's not easing his own regrets but the regrets OF THE ORIGINAL DEKU SCRUB'S SOUL THAT RESIDES WITHIN THE MASK. Have to remember that Link is still very much alive as well. So if Link dies and no one is around with a magical instrument like the Ocarina of Time or Fairy Ocarina to play the song for him, he could still very much be filled with regrets that persist to Twilight Princess's time.

YO! That's a great point!@@Kamodomon

@@TheBreadPirate - We know for a fact that the Song of Healing works for HoT because it healed him in MM, and this was while he was already dealing with "searching for his precious friend", Navi. Characters like Sharp had "sold his soul to the devil" (according to Flat), so that's a sufficient explanation to why it doesn't affect him. As for souls changing, this gets too far into headcanon territory to argue over. What we can say for certain is that HoT has a magical way to ease regrets that is proven to affect him. Anything beyond that is all in the imagination. - The fact still stands that the Shade does not teach anything that the Hero of Time knew, so it doesn't provide anything to support the idea that the Shade is HoT and can safely be shelved. Showing the aesthetic, habits, and techniques of the HoT would have been a simple and easy way to signal that the Shade is that hero, yet not a single sign was given. That cannot be ignored. - People very frequently use that comment from Renado to claim that it refers to HoT. I am sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning. I literally saw a mutual acquaintance of ours bring it up a couple of days ago, so apologies for that.

Hero of Twilight is his descendant, so the Hero of Time definitely had offspring

He even killed Ganondorf after he came back. Twilight Ganon is not the same as in OOT . It was confirmed by the Gorons and the canon Nintendo comic from 2018 that Ganondorf was killed again in the child timeline by the legendary hero. The Hero of Time and the fierce diety were combined in to one being and Time could use only small procentage of it's power. That's how he defeated Ganon so easily once he escaped from his seal.

@@alexyordanov6250 where's the source to that? I'm curious to see if that's actually legit or not

I want to believe in that ending too give the man a happy ending

@@alexyordanov6250 Yeah, what comic is that? Are you talking about the TP manga?

nah, the master sword’s entire purpose to defeat evil + Ganondorf can only be deafeated by the master sword

@FormerlyKownAsCaptainJapanBall Only Link can defeat Gannon. That and Silver Arrows. Whether Link had the Master Sword or not, I'm not sure, but with the Door of Time sealed, I like to think maybe it was done without it, which is how Link lost an eye in the first place. Remember, in OOT, you could defeat Ganondorf with the Big Gorron Sword or the Megaton Hammer. You didn't need the Master Sword. But you needed Light Arrows. It was only with the Triforce of Power that turned Ganondorf into Ganon that made you need the Master Sword to defeat him. I think Link fought Ganondorf, defeated him but lost an eye doing so, and unable to kill him without the Master Sword, brought him to the sages, where they made a Sword specifically created to execute him. He nearly died, but because of the "Divine Prank," the Triforce of Power awakened. At that time, the Master Sword became a necessity which was not available at the time. I'm going into theory territory, but it makes sense to me.

@@wolfzend5964 Alright

"it says here only Link can defeat Ganon" -guy from cdi games 😂

@@hylianro lmaooo fr, by that logic, the sages wouldn’t have been able to seal ganon away

The female Hero's Shade concept art may have originally been intended to be either the Zelda or Impa of Ocarina of Time before the developers decided to make her the Hero of Time himself for narrative meaning. It's possible Nintendo always intended for the Shade to be someone "important" earlier during development without a specific idea as to who. It wouldn't be until after careful deliberation that the Hero of Time was chosen for his identity.

I always thought the scabbard was magical. It's kind of strange Link just randomly gains it when he gets the master sword and seemingly loses possession of it when he lays down the sword to rest. It's a video game though so I don't think these types of details are going to be accounted for

@@hylianro The sword itself is magical after all so it makes sense that the scabbard could magically manifest on the back of the Hero whenever he removes it from it's pedestal.

@@javiervasquez625 right? That was always my headcanon

@@hylianro I have a feeling it's also Nintendo's headcanon given their unwillingness of explicitly confirming it despite the obvious evidence supporting it.

I do think nintendo themselves confirmed that he is oot link though

​@@Schro_They have not. That idea was made up by the books.

@@Schro_ do you have the source for that? cause the video lists every source I'm aware of and debunked them pretty well. if there's a new statement released I'd like to see it.

Ye

First I would just suggest you watch the video fully before leaving this comment, we touch on more of these things later in the video. But, I would like to ask, where in the games does it state that Link joined the army after Majora’s Mask, learned new techniques, gained new equipment, etc. Aside from this I ask you to watch the video in full.

@@ratedn the joining the Hyrule army comment was just a fill in the blank kind of thing since Zelda uses a storytelling where you can speculate. like maybe he became a recluse and designed his own armor and everything, and lost his eye somehow, maybe another Hyrulian Civil War where he fought in favour of the Kokiri.

​@@ThizbeSylvan Some Zeldatubers like Commonwealth Realm has suggested that after Link revealed Ganondorf's treachery to the king of Hyrule a war erupted between the Gerudo and Hyrule which might have lasted many years before it actually ended. Given the fact that the Sacred Grove has been _confirmed_ to be the old Hyrule Market Town from Ocarina of Time this leads credence to the possibility that the kingdom sustained a major conflict following Link's return from the Adult Timeline which lead to the destruction of the old Market Town.

@@javiervasquez625 > "the Sacred Grove has been confirmed to be the old Hyrule Market Town from Ocarina of Time" Has it?

@@Wighen18 Same Temple of Time right next to a Town Square eerily similar to the one in Ocarina of Time with the same circular fountain where Malon and other NPCs could be found standing next to. It's clearly the same Market Town following a catastrophe (heavily implied to have been a war) left it in ruins leading to it's currently ruined state.

The "theory" stems from several incriminating pieces of evidence which suggest as much from the many songs specifically found in the 2 Hero of Time games, the Shade's mention of the Hero's clothes's "green" as if he once _wore_ them in the past and the appeareance of a Skullkid in the Sacred Grove making many fans theorize it's the *same* Skullkid from Majora's Mask asked by the Hero of Time to forever watch over the Master Sword until a worthy successor/descendant would come along in need of it. The fact that neither Aonuma or anyone at Nintendo has ever outright _denied_ the possibility of the Shade been the Hero of Time gives enough reason to fans to deduce that he's indeed the Link from Ocarina of Time after failing to pass on his teachings to his own descendants forcing him to linger still in the realm of the living as a wandering soul.

Good point! His height would effect things.

Thank you! We try to bring to light the more obscure lore and theories in the community, give a voice to those who aren’t really heard. And absolutely agree, Termina is a real place within the universe of Zelda that Link and others could very well visit anytime

ALSO the point about the master sword and the triforce symbol is true, TP Link IS the hero and those are the signs but that doesn't mean he's READY to fully preform his tasks as such. OoT Link was able to pull the master sword but his body wasn't ready to wield it, which is directly stated in Ocarina of Time. That's the whole journey of the game is to get the Link's the experience and tools to defeat the evil. Otherwise, once you'd get to the Master Sword, you should just be able to go slay evil ASAP, but that's never the case in these games. Master Sword is always a PIECE of the puzzle, never the final nail in the coffin of evil. Also, the point about Link living with Cremia and Romani is an interesting one. I can see it happening but I don't agree with the point that Romani's dialog implies "consent" from Link. Ruto also does something similar with that Link when she gives him the Zora Sapphire. No one really assumes that Link and Ruto are married, do they? Romani and Ruto are kids and some things you should just disregard from kids because they're just being silly. Also, the dialog of Cremia to Link about "adulthood" is getting into fanfiction territory, lol. She just saying that he did a very brave and dangerous thing by helping hero out against the bandits, something WAY BEYOND his years (and that's technically right with all the time travel, lol). That doesn't really feel like "hey, you can come live with us now!" Also, once again, we don't know where OoT Link went to after Majora's Mask for certain. He could have just settled for a different farm life elsewhere from Termina and Hyrule. We see Link leaving Termina after Majora's Mask, that doesn't mean he went back to hyrule or even returned to Termina, we just know he left.

heck those concept arts for TP have alternate outfits for TP Link and him at different ages, different hairsyles and one that makes him look like a K-pop idol.

The main three details in Japanese Twilight Princess that are muddled or lost in English that are particularly damning are that he is a prior Hero of the Knights' bloodline, he wielded the Master Sword himself per his own words, and he explicitly calls TP Link his descendant. The Master Sword part in particular means he has to at least be *a* Link who existed prior to TP, and certain details rule out SS and Minish Cap as possibilities.

¿Is there any evidence that proves Swiftblade to be a past Link? Otherwise there's no reason to suggest as much aside from baseless especulation with no basis found in the game itself. Wathever the case i'm pretty certain that Swiftblade is NOT a past Link as the series's Lore is very explicit in that every Hero born across the timeline has at least a few hundred years of separation from eachother without any chance of meeting another incarnation very much like Zelda and Ganondorf.

@@javiervasquez625 I'm actually using Swiftblade not being a Link as further credence that characters like him (such as the Hero's Shade) don't have to be Links.

@@BirdieSenpai Okay but how does that explain that the Hero Shade confirmed to be a past hero who referenced he once wore the proud green tunic Twilight Princess Link wears? His quote.

​@@javiervasquez625 "every hero has a few centuries of separation" Nope, Spirit Tracks Link meets a survivor of tetras pirate crew whos now an old geezer more than 70 years couldn't have passed

@@be2081 He's the exception as to this day he's still the only Link to have been born almost inmediatly after his predecessor passed away.

the concept art wasn't made FOR the historia though. it was made for the game!

Thank you so much! Gotta give TP some love it deserves ❤️❤️

On the Howling Songs: Again you add nothing, though you speak on a couple variations on the same theory regarding the songs the Hero of Time learns within the games he stars in, and assert that the Sheikah's population and howling stones have an important association that can prove or disprove the Hero of Time is or is not the Hero's Shade, which is an assumption on your part that remains unproven. Moving on. On the Song of Healing: Your understanding of the Song of Healing is lacking, I see. The Song works only when the player (musician? singer?) 1. is able to interact with the regretful spirit in the first place (can't see the dead, how are you gonna know there's a regretful spirit around in the first place?), 2. is able to accept the burden of the regrets of the spirit so it can "live through" the person as a literal mask, (this is why the Hero wouldn't have been able to heal himself of his regrets) and 3. knows of the power of the song on its own. The Hero of Twilight learns none of the lore of these songs he howls, nor of their powers. Additionally, the Song of Healing might require a magical instrument in order to work in the first place; remember, the Hero of Time learned the song when he was carrying the Ocarina of Time, a magic instrument seemingly made of time crystals carved painstakingly in the shape of an instrument. As a final point on this, the Hero of Twilight is already healing the Hero's Shade through learning his techniques, so the Song of Healing wouldn't have worked in the first place. On the "Wolf Connection" point: I have two rebuttals for this. First, if a person is excellent at fighting, one of the expressions used to convey that is that they fight "like a beast" or "with beastial ferocity." It doesn't _literally_ hint at a beastial connection, because it doesn't have to. Second, this feels like a nitpick on your end to me. To add on, the Hero of Time and the Hero of Twilight are _not_ the same person. Demise's curse specifies "those with the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero" not "When you two specifically live again, so, too, shall an incarnation of my hate". My personal take on it is that the Hero of Time is contacting the Hero of Twilight in a form the Hero of Twilight is able to connect with; he can turn into a wolf, too. On the Hidden Skills: This point relies _far too much_ upon the assumption that the Hero of Time did not learn anything new in his life after Majora's Mask, nor find way to improve upon the techniques he already knew. This assumption is idiotic in nature. For another, more mechanical reason, Twilight Princess does not have a Magic Meter. Adding an additional mechanic for an optional technique (which is also quite literally the ultimate technique in the questline) to the game would be far too great a hassle for the developers when there was no need to include it in the first place. Therefore, they didn't bother to add one in. Of the two ways to use it, one of those ways _does_ resemble the classical Magic Spin from Ocarina of Time. On the Hero's Recognition: Given the language used, and how early the Hero's Shade first appears, the Shade _does_ recognize the markings and the tunic, but the Hero of Twilight does not yet possess the Master Sword, nor has he conquered his first major trial. The "No True Scotsman" fallacy you're pointing out the Hero's Shade is using falls kinda flat when you understand that he _isn't_ using the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. He's calling Link pathetic _for a Triforce-chosen hero,_ not saying that he _isn't_ one. This point is moot. Moving on. On the Hero's Shade in Hyrule Historia: Do you assume the final details of any game were the planned to be that way from the game's inception? The concept art of the Hero's Shade is an indication of the different stages of development the Shade went through as the game was refined through its creation. The creation process of any piece of art is rarely linear, and video games are hardly an exception. Link had something like 6 different designs before his age was finalized for Twilight Princess, and that was only what made the cut for the book! That point is rather ridiculous, as is using the book's neutral stance that neither confirms _nor denies_ the theory as evidence for it being untrue. Moving on. On the Shade Not Remembered: 1. You make a statement here that reveals your bias: You assume that the core of the theory comes from Hyrule Historia, when the theory has been around since the release of Twilight Princess, YEARS before the release of HH. The core of the theory is the Hero's Shade's _dialogue choices._ His calling out of Link's weakness before the first trial, his teaching of techniques that "does not leave _our bloodline."_ His final words of, "Go, and do not falter, _My Child."_ Furthermore, there is no indication at what point Link arrived back in the Child timeline, but we do glimpse the three stones in their altar in the Temple of Time. Additionally, pulling from the quote you yourself used, "a legend *held dearly* by the royal family..." Now, those words, "held dearly" can mean different things, but among them is "guarded closely". In essence, he would have been regarded well by the upper class, but the lower class would not know why, and it is the lower class that he would have had to deal with more; he would be seen more as an errand boy for his betters than a hero, considering he skipped out on the implied Hyrule-Gerudo War that saw the power of the Gerudo broken and Ganondorf captured and tried in the Arbiter's Grounds. On Power Levels: This is a very _very_ stupid point of contention. Any idiot would have the braincells to put together that the world of Hyrule does not operate on Dragon Ball rules. I would sooner cite _Fate_ than _Power Levels._ On the Hero of Time's future: This section has nothing to do with the argument, but I find the idea of Termina and Hyrule existing on the same plane rather preposterous. So you can consider me Team Malon, _or_ Team Zelda, though I personally find the child timeline Link x Zelda ship farfetched at best. Additionally, the Hyrule of Twilight Princess has moved from the Hyrule of Ocarina of Time. If we assume Death Mountain and the Temple of Time are constants, then Ordon Village is about where Lon-Lon Ranch was, and wouldn't you know it, it's *also* a ranch. It also puts the Arbiter's Grounds far to the north in the Gerudo Desert of Ocarina of Time, and puts Hyrule Castle in an inaccessible area of the map, as well as the Kokiri Forest. Additionally, the lettering system changed between games. In conclusion: I find none of your arguments strong enough to disprove the theory, and a large percentage of them to be nitpicks or unrelated to the claims. Neat video, though. As you can see, I cared enough to write this enormous word-wall. Have a great one!

Got a lot of cope in here. Good points about the bow and asset and insta debunking the rupee armor

@@DonutSwordsman It's not "cope" as you call it, I am presenting counter-arguments in the order they were presented in the video. I was very thorough, needing to pause after each section to record my thoughts, then rewriting them as needed and adding points where I had missed some, as well as fixing minor grammatical errors. The process took over an hour. Not that I didn't enjoy it, as The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is my favorite Legend of Zelda game.

@@andyknightwarden9746 Honestly made a lot of real good points and nailed many of the issues I had with this video. I also want to add onto the bow thing two points that help prove the bow in Twilight Princess to be the Hero of Time's. Link could have had it upgraded later in his life, and those upgrades would realistically have made it look different from how it appears in MM. Or the latter, which is that it could just simply be a whole different bow. It doesn't _have_ to be the same bow. It's called the Hero's Bow because it was wielded by the hero.

twilight princess is on child timeline after majoras mask

The Hero’s Shade *is* the Hero of Time, this video is just grasping at straws and is easily debunked.

Pretty sure that wasn't the Historia's fault (the creation of the Downfall Timeline i mean) but Aonuma and company who couldn't find a justification aside from them wanting it so after making the mistake of ending the story of Ocarina of Time the way it ultimately did kickstarting 2 opposite timelines which had nothing to do with the all the pre Ocarina games released prior.

@javiervasquez625 Here's my personal theory. When Link first played the Song of Time in Majora's Mask, he didn't reset the three days but was sent back in time and "overwritten" his counterpart, creating a new timeline. Meanwhile, Link and Tatl disappeared, and Majora destroyed Termina. Because Link disappeared, and the laws of the Triforce state that, A: When someone leaves Hyrule the Triforce will be scattered: said by the King of Red Lions in the Wind Waker after Zelda sent Link back to the Child Timeline. And B: The Triforce must exist in all timelines as a whole, explaining how Ganon, Zelda and Link had the Triforce in OOT and later TP their descendants in the later, then you can make the assumption that there is the Triforce of Power in Ganon, the Triforce of Wisdom in Zelda, and the Triforce of Courage somewhere in Hyrule for anyone to find. Ganondorf would know and invade Hyrule, like the Sages in TP said. (Or at least in the ENG version they did, the original JAP versionmight said different.) And as we know, the Triforce and the Sacred Realm, were a Secret to all those but the Royal Family, the Guardian Spirits like the Deku Tree, and later Ganondorf. Now, imagine if the Triforce of Courage was found by someone... imagine if Ganondorf and Zelda awakened their pieces of the Triforce. Imagine if a kingdom, united recently after a bloody Civil War, now knew that ultimate power was out there for the taking. All hell would break loose. Between Ganondorf looking for it with the already obtained Triforce of Power, the Princess looking to keep it safe from Ganon with the Triforce of Wisdom, and the races unable to pick a side because now it's a race to find the Triforce of Courage before Ganondorf takes over, not only that but there are those who would want it for themselves, so it might as well be another war. The Imprisoning Wars to be exact. After that, the Gorons would be wiped out, standing with the Royal Family and against Ganondorf. The Kokiri would be wiped out as well since it was a "Kokiri" that exposed Ganondorf in the first place, and with the Deku Tree still dead, they would be picked off as well. The Zora would try to fight but stand no chance, possibly be frozen if this Ganondorf was like Twilight Princess and OOT. And the only Sheikah left was Impa. This explains why only Hylians and Zora are seen in the downfall timeline of ALTTP and the first 2 Zelda Games. Ganondorf would eventually take the Triforce foe himself, but due to Zelda's plans, which would be the same as OOT, to seal him in the Sacred Realm, like she did in OOT, Ganondorf would be sealed away, by several new Hylian Sages to do so. (It is possible that in order to defeat him, the Sages created a new Master Sword and the Silver Arrows based upon the original Master Sword, which could explain not only the retcon of Zelda and Link in Skyward Sword forging it from the Goddess Sword but also explain the fake Master Swords in the Lost Woods, placed there to hinder theivesfrom finding the new one they made but also because they were the leftover or flawed attempts to remake it. This is pure theory and just me going into head cannon.) Ganondorf would be sealed, and his army would be wiped out, but surprisingly, not by Hyrule. I recall something mentioning that Ganondorf killed his followers after obtaining the Triforce, and that would make sense since he was already betrayed once. By Nabooru, who could've been warned by Link, captured by Twinrova, or betrayed Ganon to go into hiding or even join Zelda and Hyrule against Ganondorf To prevent another betrayal, Ganondorf, now Ganon, killed off the Gerudo, his own followers, and turned them into monsters, succumbed to Demise's influence in full. This explaining why no Gerudo exist in the Fallen Timeline either, except Twinrova, the only Gerudo spared due to them being Ganondorf's "Surogate Mothers" Ganondorf would be sealed, and people, still wanting to take the Triforce for their own, would probably follow or find ways into the Sacred Realm, becoming monsters themselves. To prevent the outpouring monsters, the Sages would further seal up the Sacred Realm, where their descendants would maintain the seal, one of them being Zelda, or a descendant of hers, which overtime would result in the end of the Imprisoning Wars and an era of rebuilding. The Master Sword would be placed in the Temple of Time or Lost Woods, guarded by the Spiritual Stones, now turned into Pendants. The kingdom would slowly recover but remained destroyed as a result. The Zora would unfreeze but maintain a distrust to Hylians after the war, and the kingdom would remain mostly Hylian and humans. The Gorons, Gerudo, and Kokiri are now more or less extinct. Many years later, the events of ALTTP occur, and so on and so forth and then some. Personally, this makes a lot more sense and more meaningful to the Zelda Series than "Link died, Ganon won." But that's just my head-cannon on the downfall timeline.

My headcanon is that the “Downfall Timeline” could be the future of either the adult or child timeline. The “Seven Wise Men” could be a mistelling of the sages - centuries later, as history becomes legend, details get changed and we’ll never know without some legendary anthropology work.

😂

@@ronstewart5945 Downfall being a third timeline instead of just getting tacked onto the Child or adult timeline was a mistake.

Here's what I want to know; Are you Team Malon or Team Romani?

Malon 100% :D @@hintonempire1178

You haven't been in this community long if you believe it to be docile.

​@@hintonempire1178I ultimately don't think it matters considering how similar they are in appearance, but I think it makes more sense that the hero went back to Hyrule since he's back where he was in the forest at the end of MM. It could also be a possibility that he roamed the world/forest for the rest of his life if you like darker fan theories

@@hylianro Going back to Hyrule doesn't really mean anything though. For example, if he did move to Termina, it's perfectly normal to go back to Hyrule first and tie up his loose ends and get his stuff.

Good question 👀

I want to politely let you know of a few corrections of some points that you brought up. First, you mentioned that the Triforce never left Link in the Adult timeline. This is not true. In Wind Waker, the King of Red Lions states: "That sacred piece is known as the Triforce of Courage. When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero. It is said that at that time, the Triforce of Courage was split into eight shards and hidden throughout the land." When Link left the Adult Timeline, he left the Triforce behind as well. All we see at the end of OoT is the SYMBOL of the Triforce on his hand. The symbol can stay on the hand even after the Triforce is no longer within you. For proof of this, go to the final battle of WW and zoom in on Ganondorf's hand or Zelda's hand when Link stabs Dorf in the head. You will see the Triforce symbol is still there despite having left his body. Second, The Sun's Song is something that even the guards of Kakariko are aware exists. Third, Link already had the Song of Healing used on him when he removed the Deku form from himself. Also, the song can work on both the living and the dead. For example, Pamela's father is still living when it is used on him. Mikau and Darunia are both already dead. However, there are some spirits who can resist it, which implies that consent is involved in the song's effectiveness. As for the manga, I don't think you have to worry about it at all since it is not canon.

@hintonempire1178 Fair points; i did not remember that the Triforce DID leave Link when he was sent back in time... It seems there were some gaps in my knowledge after all, as I thought it would have traveled still in his possession. Though, I suppose then I introduced a gap in my own explanation, because if that were the case would it even still exist in the adult timeline if he still had it. Yeah, that oversight is on me... There's only one inconsistency left though... You're right about the Goron (WAS his name Darunia?? I thought that was the one in OoT) was dead, but wasn't Mikau still alive when Link played the song of healing for him? On the brink of death, certainly, but not actually dead yet. It's been a long time since I played Majora's Mask; I could possibly be misremembering.

@@Volcanoran3 I think it is fair to say he was on the brink of death but not dead yet.

Manga's its own continuity and while it DOES have the Hero's Shade as the Hero of Time, it also says he's NOT TP Link's blood ancestor which seems very weird. I thought that was a translation error but someone in a shin a comments section said that it got checked.

We use the website ElevenLabs for Fi's voice. We use a custom trained AI voice model based directly off of her speech sounds from Skyward Sword. 🫡

@@ratedn ty very much for answering😍

-But perhaps it’s possible he brought back/kept the scabbard that held the ms. -I can’t recall anywhere in MM how/where that is implied? I don’t think that is correct at all, and fine with as long as ganon was prevented and halted - and more likely/in character of link would be his regret that he couldn’t do more to prevent the extent of damage ganon and his gerudo followers had still done battling until he was defeated and captured. The in game quote is accurate - not the little bit written in HH book which has a few other things definitely inaccurate.

Nothing at all 👍 We are just providing an alternative viewpoint. 🫡

@@ratedn sure ! +1 sub

❤️

Why would the truth need to be covered up? And how would he reincarnate from another timeline entirely?

@@DillonMaynard because it's my personal fanfiction. Heh heh heh

meh OoT link turning evil the least probable out of all the Links. He defeated his own shadow in the water temple and always tried to do the right thing. In MM through the masks he had acquired for different states of being one of which (Fierce deity) was as corrupting as the Majora's mask (theorized that the two masks are complementary twins). Sure he lost a lot of things but after dying to the moon repeatedly, personally feeling whats its like to be dead full of regret, I dont think he would want to destroy Hyrule. Thats why I like the TP manga take on him. He did everything is his power to allow people die wthout regrets to the point where he lost his humanity (turning into a Stalfos) and went to the very place where regrets were sent while never being able to perform the song of healing on himself, thus carrying the regret of not defeating Ganon/not being able to pass on the skills required to do so. Even if we only take canon material, Time link always acted and fought for others.

@@allorfh2495 I like your response. I'm totally with you. My selfmade universe of Evil Majora Link is definitely just fanfic, but I think it's an interesting detail and maybe a much needed hidden timeline. I didn't know that's how the TP manga went. Thanks for telling me

It's never actually been “confirmed” outside of the Hyrule Historia and Zelda Encyclopedia. We even touch on contradictions that the book makes in regards to the theory it proposes... So for anyone to say it's undoubtedly confirmed with no room for discussion is simply not true. The book itself can't even decide if it wants to call it a fact or not lol.

​@ratedn while obviously not canon, the Twilight Princess manga is written in a way that portrays the Hero's Shade as the Hero of Time, and Nintendo never shot that down. Surely that's got to count for something.

Well he knows the songs from Ocarina but the sword skills are from Wind Waker which in universe could've been a time skip.

Okay except he confirms TP Link related to him, a blood descendant and that he himself was a former hero who knows the sword and references he wore a similar green tunic.

Or just because it's just an awesome look.

We don't outline an exact narrative or theory as to who we specifically believe the Hero's Shade is -- we only give suggestions or possibilities, in accordance to all the points we debunk about the original theory. A narrative could be made from the points we make, but we didn't really attempt that in the video. For points like: - The Replica Master Swords, which could be wielded by anyone, not just OoT Link. - The OOT/MM songs weren't JUST known by Link, which many claim. - The odd placement of the Scabbard on the Shade (we have 2 Links in the series who have strong ties to knighthood and dont wear it like that either) Among the other points we discuss and debunk, we use these to show that the identity of the Shade is not as open and shut as people think it is. The overarching theme of the video is proving the Shade doesn't HAVE to be OoT Link, nor is the Shade's attributes exclusive to OoT link. Some people misinterpret our points-- like thinking we insinuate that Sheik, or Sharp, are potentially the Shade, because they knew songs the HoT knew. Or that because the Scabbards don't match from other Zelda Games, that we somehow are saying that other Master Swords wielded by Links throughout the series are fake... The major things we are pointing out with these debunks, is that all the traits of the Shade and his knowledge, are NOT exclusive to the Hero of Time, which many fans claim that are 100% exclusive to him, and that is cannot by any means be anyone else. All of these debunks, combined with the own source of the theory (Hyrule Historia) openly flip-flopping on whether the theory is canon or not (it calls it fan theory) all combine in our view, as enough evidence to strongly consider alternative ideas and theories of who the Shade could truly be.

@@ratedn Ok understood now

Dev interviews are shaky evidence, on either side. We know from dev interviews that Minish Cap was allegedly going to show the Origin of Links hat with Ezlo, which wasn't true. Or Aonuma stating that the Fierce Deity is the amalgamation of the Hatred of the people of Termina, clarifying that is his interpretation, but fans have still gone ahead and taken that as Canon. Or that time Aonuma said WW is about 100 yrs after OoT even though stuff like the Gravestone on Windfall Island entirely disproves that. Or if you want to broaden it to Nintendo itself, then we'd have to still believe that Triforce Heroes is a direct sequel to ALBW, or that Age of Calamity is the unfettered truth of what happened 100 yrs ago in Breath of the Wild. Yes, there are pretty clear traces that OoT and TP are connected, atleast inspiration wise. Especially since it was a hail mary game after WWs bad reception in the west. However there still stands the fact that if they really wanted this to unquestionably be the HoT, they would have done more to prove it. Something as large as the fate of the most famous and popular Link in the entire series would be treated with a bit more clarity as a major story element. It's also a bit fallacious in return that our point-by-point debunk has been reduced to "debunking in a vaccuum" where just like the alleged proofs of the Shade being the HoT, our evidences and debunks come together to paint the opposite picture, that infact it may not be the Hero of Time, due to the vast amount of discrepancies.

@@ratedn But most instances of dev interviews being "shaky evidence" come down to fan misinterpretations. For example, Aonuma's quote about WW taking place 100 years after OoT was a mistranslation. He actually said "hundreds". And things like MC being the first in the timeline due to it being the origin of Link's hat comes down to the simple fact that it was the *intention at the time.* Obviously, that changed with Skyward Sword, but MC's timeline placement remained the same regardless. Proving there was credence to what he said. But when Aonuma, the director of TP, states in no uncertain words that it takes place after OoT in the child timeline, denying that due to a few small discrepancies feels stubborn to me. Especially when the devs' interpretation hasn't changed at all since then. Also, when I say "debunking in a vacuum", what I'm talking about are arguments like the 'Wolf Songs' section of the video. Yes, it's true that the Hero of Time wasn't the only person who knew of any ONE of those songs, but that's not really the point. The fact that he knew them all at the same time, and happens to be a previous Hero (not to mention the only Hero we know of that knew all those songs), and also appears in a game that the director himself explicitly stated to be a follow-up to OoT is all too significant to just hand wave away. When looking at it *all together,* it paints a very, very clear picture.

The first bit is just a bit too head-canon for our taste. And the point was mostly about his Scabbard, and how many thought they matched but there’s in fact differences. But in that note: if evil should rise again, then it would make sense for Link to take up the Master Sword once more as that’s what tends to happen in the lore. I’ll give you that we haven’t seen Ocarina Link himself taking on armies, but other Links like BotW/TotK have taken down armies of Lynels and other monsters by himself. Link tends to be the most skilled warrior in all the games, or becomes such at some point in his journey. I find it harder to believe that Link was taken out in battle by a random unnamed soldier or bokoblin for example, especially after MM where we see Link is far more agile and acrobatic, is skilled, and powerful in his own right. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense

@@ratedn The nutrition explanation makes perfect sense in my opinion, and well, Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time obviously seems to be the developers intention, he even does the little side steps just like the Hero of Time does! Remember he wouldn't have any items he normally uses, and I think he would die in battle on the front lines, getting "ganked" by some soldiers, not on a duel, even the most skilled warriors aren't able to take a bunch of enemies(other skilled human swordsmen) at once, this also feels more grounded and realistic, the Hero of Time managing to have offspring before dying young(again, maybe if not on the front lines, a disease is also an option after getting those battle scars of course). There's also a theory that Dark Link defeated him, which I find really cool. And well I think comparing the appearance of the bow and the hidden skills is a bit of a stretch taken too literally, remember the N64 had limitations and the developers wouldn't limit themselves with a next game on a brand new hardware, of course they would make Hyrule a lot bigger, more awesome moves for Link, let the artists imagination flow for the weapon designs and stuff like that. Nintendo talked about that on an interview if I'm not mistaken, they have the "gameplay first" mentality and don't care much about much consistency. They might have thought about the Hero's Shade being the Hero of Time after the initial concepts and ideas for him, and eventually settled with the Hero of Time idea(every idea in every game changes during development, calling that out is kind of an argument that takes things too literally, concept art is not the final intended product). The night time soundtrack for Twilight Princess uses Malon's singing, I like to think that's s Malon's(Hero of Time's SO) spirit calling for her husband back and/or blessing the Hero of Time with protection! Aonuma said Twilight Princess takes place a hundred or so years after Ocarina/Majora's Mask, so the Hero of Time's spirit coming back on Hyrule's worst crisis yet also makes sense. Maybe the Hero's Shade regret comes from not being able to be recognized for the things he has done as an adult during Ocarina, because everything the royal family really knows about him is that he only called out on Ganondorf's betrayal and was right about it, not for actually defeating him and etc.

Very well thought out rebuttal

We go over this in the video. While the Hyrule Historia is cited as the main reason people believe the Shade is the Hero of Time, the book contradicts itself on whether it's fact or theory. On top of this, Nintendo has not once ever mentioned the Shade/HoT thing being Canon, nor have they ever said that Hyrule Historia or Encyclopedia are Canon. Encyclopedia itself states that where necessary, the writers of the book inserted their own interpretations of the lore. These are writers who have NEVER worked on a Zelda game.

During the credits of OoT, you can see the characters from the adult timeline celebrating Ganon's defeat. If there was only one timeline as you claim, this wouldn't be possible, since Link travelling back in time to being a child after defeating Ganon would have replaced the adult timeline with the child timeline.

@@bubblegumkk8158 Oh, so where's the Downfall timeline representation? Is there a hidden ending with Ganon celebrating Links death? There is no version of the game where Link isn't returned to being a child by Zelda after you defeat Ganon. The end. Goodbye forever.

​​@@BaldorfBreakdowns You say "there is no timeline split," but the timeline split is clearly depicted in OoT's ending. Its not up for debate that at least two timelines exist. We see both of them in-game. As for the downfall timeline, I made no mention of it, so I am not sure why you bring it up.

Aah, I see the issue now. When you say "There is no version of the game where Link isn't returned to being a child," this makes it seem as if you believe that the adult timeline is a theoretical alternate timeline in which the Hero of Time stays behind in the future with Zelda. This is not the case. The "adult timeline" simply refers to the world that Link leaves behind after being sent back in time during OoT's ending. The timeline split is the result of time travel. This *is* inconsistent with the idea of a "downfall timeline," since no such timeline is depicted in game and thus we can't really do anything more than theorize about what circumstances may have lead to its creation.