My set of 404s are used, so they are past any "break-in" period. Also there is an entire Reddit thread dedicated to the inherent flaw of Zipp's ZR1 hub and it's not looking good. But regardless of the resolution and potential warranty fix, the bearing drag is not an isolated issue. Certainly not something any customer should overlook at this price point.
Bearing drag... assuming you have sealant in them, and the others not as you prefer tubes. The sealant will sink to the bottom slowing the spin to a stop a lot quicker, no?
Super in depth detail video!! I loved it. Zipp is loved by the average consumer in the bike industry, they are marketed well people see them everywhere so they want them
I've been riding these wheels along with the 303 S for the last three seasons. I don't race so the comfort for me is excellent. Im not sure if they spin freer than other wheels in the class, but I love my 404s.
This is a well-rounded reply thank you. The comfort is there and the weight is solid. For sustained endurance rides where you aren't constantly accelerating I think they can make sense, especially with the fantastic warranty. I do think my particular set of wheels need to be serviced. A lot folks have had great success with road tubeless.
I've had my 404s for 2 years. Rode them in all kinds of conditions. They are light, still and fast. Yes I've re-greased the rear hub but then again I do that for all my wheels every winter. I love them!
This is a good and objective review dude! I had some old school (2015) 404s before my bike was stolen a few years ago, they were sluggish for the first few months and then they absolutely flew! Not sure where that came from, I switched to tubeless after the second year and didn’t see much difference in performance! Loved these wheels but if I didn’t have some great team at local shop I probably wouldn’t buy these for the cost… That being said, I wouldn’t buy cheap carbon wheels ever
Road tubeless is just to much of a hassle/mess. Tubeless is the way to go on gravel or mtb but I went back to tubes on all my road bikes... Currently running Princeton Carbon works Peak 45 50 with tubes. On a side note another great review!
I had rim tape rupture on a tubeless hookless tire just sitting idle, It was funny because I was just walking thru the garage and I suddenly heard the rush of air coming from one of my road bikes (hookless tubeless) so I put some air in and the air expelled via a spoke hole. The timing was perfect as if it was just messing with my head lol.@@PatrickLino
Kinda same results with my 2-yr-old 404 firecrest. Honestly the spining time issue is total fine to me. The rim is light, so you in fact get lesser rotational energy compared to wheels with heavier rims. So you will end up with smaller numbers if you test with heavier rims. But, admittedly, yes, I think zipp's bearings are rather tight, but the difference it can make is so marginal that it basically means nothing when you yourself are actually riding it. Plus, I do prefer add some sticky sealant like silca's as it does work when punctured and brand new gp5000 is indeed a bit expensive. So, with sealant inside, the spining time is not going to look good. However, 404 do have other design flaws, or imperfection so to speak that makes user experience far from perfect: 1: The deep rim is easy to have water accumulated inside that you need air compressor to force the water out of rim if you ever ride them when it rains. 2: The zr1 hub is really dragy compared to other brands'. I think it is partially atrribute to its tick count (66 I think?) with a traditional hub design (they are brutal force the problem by just increasing the ticks without thinking about reducing frictions) 3: It is really a pain to install gp5000 on them, but once installed, it feels good. 73.5psi is a none issue for me at least since I am barely over 70kg. 4: ZR1 is also a leaky hub that you'd better dry it or even oven it after you riding it in rains or wash it intensively. I already broke the hub bearing once because balls inside the bearing rusted. 5: The spoke tension is on the lower side compared to similarly priced counterparts, which makes it feels a bit soft, as described in the video. I'd prefer cadex or enve next time. 404 gives me a feeling of being a half-prototype.
Very accurate review. I too have the 404s, bought from new and the spin test is correct. It's the grease. Zipp bearings and a tone of THICK grease inside and will take FOREVER to break in (if they even do break in). I sped up the process by spraying a little bit of silicone grease into the bearings. I don't recommend you do that but that's what I did. They free spinned a lot better after that though probably not as much as the other wheels in this video. At the end of the day, a bearing upgrade might be the way to go but that's $$. I had Pirellis, Contis and Vittoria Corsa Pros on those wheels and only the Contis seated with a track pump. The Pirellis required a blaster and the Vittorias needed some soapy water. The 404s are no longer on my bike. I bought some 353s instead 😅 It was the same deal, the bearings had thick grease and I sprayed some silicone grease on them after 2 weeks.
@@PatrickLino Seem so though I would say it's the bearings and not the hubs. The 404s have ZR1 hubs and the 353 NSW have Cognition hubs but both use the exact same bearings. My fix was easy though I admit it's not ideal for the long term.
Got a set of 404s for the TT bike. Really happy with them but agree that I could've spent less and be just as happy with the performance. Save wherever you can
I have the new Enve 4.5 hookless. They’ve been great but I won’t get hookless again. Knowing what we know now. It’s just always in my head when I go for a ride. Will they blow up? Naaa, but it’s just a mind F now.
Do you run a carbon handlebar? Do you run a carbon steerer? I've seen those break more often than hookless tires blowing off the rim. Your mind is gonna be f'ed up more now.
@@LTBlightthebeamTell that to Specialized and ask them why did they go back to hooked wheels. I am sure they will be grateful for your priceless input.
I’m running tubeless from 2019. I’ve had one puncture that wouldn’t seal on the roadside (I didn’t have dynaplugs) comfort is great very happy. I’m now booklets on giant rims but if I was buying wheels they’d be hooked. You should look into the hunt 54 wheelsets 👍
@@gregkane8635 I dont want speak bad on Hunt Wheels because I have not personally used them. However, I know their business model and pricing structure which is a bit of a turn off. Brands like Winspace, Elite, FarSports, and Magene have a made good new for themselves for great affordable wheels.
I'm also running tubeless for the first time with S TR 32mm tires to go with Elitewheels G45 wheels and they have been really comfortable. After being worried about the setup process it was super easy. If things continue to go smoothly I may switch my 28mm tire on Elitewheels 65D to tubeless also.
Hookless is fine, if you're using it in the right operating window. That however already requires an in depth knowledge that the average punter doesn't have. And there lies the problem. Bike shops shouldn't sell this to the quy next door who's just getting into cycling without telling them about the risks. Or manufacturers like Giant should put a giant (pun intented) warning sticker on their rims.
I just bought a brand new 330 firecrest whel set and I realize that the zr1 hubs get a little sticky as soon as through axle is tightened, no pendulum moves with a minimal tighten is aplicaded for exemple, no disc brake interference.... But after a few miles I opened the hubs (only remove the disc brakes and, with your hand, pull off the end caps and free hub) and I removed the excess of grease, there was a lot of grease... Its much better now but is not yet exactly the same when the axle is totally loose..... They are very expensive wheels and should spin looser... I am using a 28 gp 5000 s tlr and sealant.... Now I am happy, but I dont konw if that little sticky, in a real use, make me slower...
You should not have to do any fiddling. Especially for a new set of wheels. But even more especially for a premium set of wheels. Zipp is aware of these flaws and yet continue to sell as is.
I used to be just like you before I converted to tubeless but I’ll never go back to tubes, I have Enve 6.7s on my Ribble and gotten multiple punctures and made it thru the ride every time except for the 1 time I had to put a Dynaplug which took 30sec, Muc Off or Silca sealant will seal almost anything and when it comes to performance, that comfort that you feel should translate to higher speed
I agree , also those zip wheels are over price for what they are ! Lunt wheels much superior and advance ( lun 67D carbon bearing blade carbon spokes ! Those wheels don’t bend even going down off road )
What would be your choice between comfort and speed? I have a set of Hypers wich I have since 15k without issues. They are super stiff and responsive but sometimes I need a bit more comfortable ride since the roads are harsh where I live. I am looking at some Elite Wheels …. Thanks for your great videos
I find that shallower depth wheels provide more comfort, as the longer spokes provide more flex than a super deep wheel. I would say any wheel in the 40 to 50mm depth is a great start. Carbon or steel spokes.
@@PatrickLino my Hypers are the 38 version, I think a alloy spoke might be more comfortable then the carbon spoke. I also use a 28mm or 30mm GP5000 tire. My problem is just the 💩 roads. So I am looking for a good wheel with alloy spokes but still lightweight < 1500g
@@MrBillboeing Look into Magene's new Ultra wheels. 1360 for a 50/58mm deep wheel. I did a video on these too. Still have carbon spokes but the 23mm internal width make for a comfy ride.
@@MrBillboeing I bought hypers w/ceramic bearings. One reviewer said on teardown he noticed Hyper hubs were lightly lubricated and suggested oiling them after break-in. Wish I would have listened, at 3,500 miles my outer 2 bearings under the spline went. But after replacing them, they feel like they are rolling better than new.
Also- I’ve NEVER had a flat on tubeless except for one massive gash through my tyre from a glass shard which would ruin both my inner tube and tyre in one I don’t think that inner tubes are the way anymore, as inconvenient as they were, I’d rather get a tacsi, or…. Cycle home because it’s covered by sealant! Just saying… if the sealant can’t cover it, a tube won’t hold it
I’m a 235lb rider and this is my take: Tubeless is great. Hookless is problematic. I run tubeless on all of my bikes now. Since making the switch, I’ve gone from 5 or 6 flats per year with tubes, to 1 riding tubeless. I’ve only been stranded once in the two years since the change, and that was a sidewall blowout due to whatever I rolled over, so I couldn’t even use my spare tube. All of my wheels are hooked, so I still run higher (more normal) pressures. Maintenance-wise, you have to add new sealant every 3 months, but that’s not really an issue to me. I do take the tires off and remove the old sealant to save weight, but it’s not really necessary.
David Portnoy of Silva said it best…if you find you need higher pressures due to weight or tire size…you don’t exceed the recommended PSI, you need to go up in tire size instead and run the correct pressure.
Perhaps there’s not much R&D going into Zipp? More marketing than science? Having said that, I rate Giant cadex as satisfying ‘mature’ hookless wheelset → broad pressure range (albeit quite limited on tyre choice), very minimal drag (hub system), tough. Perhaps you should give them a try? I’m using them with Cadex Race tires and so far so good (but expensive)
Thanks for the video. Very interesting. Does the fact that the wheels stop on the stand after 9 seconds mean that they are braked (bearing preload) or are they built like this? In your opinion, at 30km/h how many watts are lost by having a wheel braked like this? In your opinion, does the fact that it is braked on the stand mean that it is also braked in normal use? From your comments I perceive that the wheel is comfortable but less performing, do you think this is due to the tubeless or the fact that the hubs are braked?
@@PatrickLino by braked I mean that the wheel stops after 9 seconds on the stand and it is as if there was greater friction perhaps due to the preload on the bearings
@@nandopizzamiglio5874 The wheels are preloaded with proper torque to the thru-axles. So this is how the hubs and bearings where intended to spin. Customers have reported this to be an issue, and ZIPP is well aware. Does this affect performance? Hard to tell, however they don't feel snappy out on the road.
@@PatrickLino Thanks so much for your replies. I saw that you have a power meter installed. have you by any chance analyzed the data? Unfortunately I have the image in my head of the wheel spinning at 9 seconds on the stand and it makes me think of going around with the "handbrake on". I think the feeling is just mental.... thank you so much for your patience
The most important take away is any standard wheel, affordable or expensive, should be capable of at least 30 seconds minimum. 9 seconds is unacceptable.
I actually love my 404s running on 62 psi (85kg). It feels and is quite fast…. And comfortable. Consider the spinning, I also noticed that they are not that free as they could/should be… maybe will go for ceramics, if money falls from heaven:-) In your test: do you have sealant in the tires? It will definitely cause some energy dissipation.
For me, as a normal size person, I'd need to run 34c road tires if i used hookless. Thats just too wide for the speeds im doing on the road, at least with the currently available wheels or road frames.
I’m board with the comfort and claimed rolling resistance of 28s + Latex/TPU on all my road bikes. However there are still times when I miss the road communication of 25s. At my weight, 80 PSI on 25s is perfectly fine.
@@PatrickLino for me, I like following the engineering specs, and the tested limit is 72.5psi. I'm not going to plan on regularly running right at (or over) that limit, I'll run a width of tire that gives some room for error. Even in a racing environment I'm going for about 10% margin, so that's a pressure that gives me the 34c tire.
I was thinking about buying that wheelset, replacing my giant SLR 2, both are hookless and tubeless ready. Do you think it is a good purchase? I can get them for 1,500 dollars. Also, i run tubeless set up, soo, i will keep on that set up for get the maximum performance Thank you
The comfort of tubeless cannot be denied, especially if you are a lighter rider. If possible make sure you can inspect the wheels, hubs, and bearings in person before making your purchase.
@@rochtofenoldgen2494 did you buy the 404s? If so, how are they? I'm in the same boat than you. I have a pair of SLR 1 42mm and am looking for deeper wheels. Was thinking about a combo with the Zipp 404s and the Zipp sl-70 aero handlebar.
If I’m being honest they aren’t special, but should be solid for the price. Steel spokes and steel bearings are common at this price. I’d take them over the Zipps
bought the exact same wheelset. I am weighing 72kg SRAM calculator gives me 55psi and Silca recommend 65psi - maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle so I will start with 60 psi - btw the 404 are supposed to be the fastest out of all the zipp wheels.
I recently downgraded my 404s to gravel riding with 42mm pathfinder pro tires. It's crazy, I know, but I got fed up with the sluggish feel it gave me in my Tarmac SL7. So I decided to install it on my Crux. I wonder how long its gonna last on UK gravel/winter roads 😂😂 . I would say 3 rides until it pops a spoke.
i think it about the weight of the wheel. i have my old aluminum wheel with steel spokes i compare with my carbon wheel with carbon spokes. it surprise me the alloy wheel which more heavy about 790 gram than my Carbon wheel spin longer than the light carbon. both use steel bearing. and also it feel more rolling on heavy alloy wheel. but in acceleration the carbon wheel feel more quick than alloy. may be the weight wheel produce more centripetal energy than the light carbon.
The inertia and centripetal energy are probably what cause the wheels to spin longer. This is also why having the lightest bike setup isn't really necessary other than for climbing or constant accelerations. The same way it takes a freight train longer to come to a halt than, say, an automobile. Newton's first law of motion.
My God, after reading here I start to regret my order, when reading this I think of iPhone people (buying the best marketing product) 😂 are they really this bad as people say here? Also wonder how people can have so strong opinions when they havent even tried the wheels 🤔
Damn... Cafe wheels that's cold lol Yea the 353's and 454's are the stiffer faster feeling wheels out of the bunch. I'm also not a fan of tubeless and sure as hell don't care for hookless. Too many tire standards at the moment. Zipp also has an issue with their nsw hubs.. a lot of drama with those hubs.
I run the Zipp 404 on my Pinarello and Cadex 65 on my Systemsix. Both hookless and I've never had a problem. Here in Europe the 404's only cost between 1299 - 1399 Euros.
Excellent review bro! I almost pulled the trigger in those 404’s. Sticking with my tubes in my GP 5000 and Superteam wheels. Thanks again 👍🏻 Mike from Texas
Zip hubs have been shit forever. And the hookles road techbology is s greedy joke. Zipp are just full of marketing shit etc. I really don't know how people are still buyin this stuff with all the options in the market smh.
@@PatrickLino hahahs don't know mate but I just checked my cheap ass stock alu wheels i got with my scott. The wheel spins for 90 seconds 😅 and few grand zipp for 8 💀
The way you don’t use the same force on all wheels makes the test not very accurate. Also some of the rims have a tire and some don’t have. The best way would be to use the same force and all with no tire at all
I my humble opinion, spinning tells you nothing. It could mean just that the Zipp has more grease on it, or that then grease has more viscosity. I always focus on the feeling while cycling, how it responds, how it descent, how it accelerate.
If you watched the entire video, I mention the wheels feel sluggish and don't respond well. Too much grease, doesn't spin well, and sluggish on the road. Not exactly a recipe for greatness at $2000.
Wheel hubs should not keep running. If the hubs are well lubed and fitted correctly they should run slower without any weight on them. A lot of these bike sayings are just myths.. Example,,, fatter tyres are faster, ABSOLUTE NONSENSE , obviously more friction, and have you ever wondered why track cyclists dont use them
1. Track cyclists don't run wider tires and lower pressure because they are racing on super smooth and flawless surfaces. Road cyclists have to contend with bad pavement and debris. Wider tires and lower pressure allow the tire to deform and dampen over bad roads which makes them scientifically faster versus track tires at 120 PSI. I'm honestly shocked you haven't done even the slightest bit of research before your roid rage. 2. I'll forgive you being new to my channel. Welcome. I've tested almost every single popular wheel brand including both ENVE and Zipp over 3 years. These are the only set wheels, ever, to have bearing drag. Well lubed bearings and good engineering should prevent drag. Again, your argument is backwards. 3. Even if I agreed with anything you mentioned, the main point of the video is that hookless tubeless wheels for the road don't make sense for me. And that these particular set of wheels are very sluggish. I don't care the wheels spun freely forever, if out on the road they are sluggish.
You say friction doesn't matter then you say friction does matter. Either it does or it doesn't. Track riders do use wider tyres, Ganna set the hour record on a 25mm tyre, that's a pretty wide tyre for a glass smooth surface.
